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on Sun 1 Sep 2019 - 15:57
@HellfireUnit wrote:Reason I put Vader above Yoda is because Canon Vader became much stronger unlike his EU counterpart. 
As someone who has contributed significant material to Canon Vader's RT and defended him multiple times I've yet to see any definitive evidence proving he's > Anakin. Anakin's curbfondling of Dooku impresses me way more than anything that Vader has done.

And if you're referring to that quote form Lords of the Sith, I've already addressed it above. But if you have any other evidence proving that Canon Vader is indeed > Anakin then would you mind posting them?

@HellfireUnit wrote: Canon Vader is a Kaiju buster
Not really a TK feat tbh as Vader pretty much never uses TK in that fight.

 Yoda's mountain feat also blows that out of the water.

@HellfireUnit wrote:he was confirmed to be a better swordsman than Palpatine which puts him above Yoda IMO.
The OP states that its a Force tier list so I don't see why Vader's ranking as a swordsman would be relevant.
King Joker
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on Sun 1 Sep 2019 - 16:01
@DoA: No, this thread ranks combative ability overall—including lightsaber abilities. I titled it “Force User Tiers” just as a catch-all for Jedi/Sith/etc.
HellfireUnit
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on Sun 1 Sep 2019 - 16:03
My bad, I thought this is an overall ranking therefore combat skills shouldn't be as relevant as you said.

Also wasn't Yoda's mountain feat was TP?
DoA
DoA

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on Sun 1 Sep 2019 - 16:14
@King Joker wrote:@DoA: No, this thread ranks combative ability overall—including lightsaber abilities. I titled it “Force User Tiers” just as a catch-all for Jedi/Sith/etc.
Ah, fair enough.  

Still though, even if this is indeed about overall combative viability then it should still be obvious that Sheev is on a completely different level than Vader.
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Mon 2 Sep 2019 - 1:04
@DoA Nice to see you debating again bro.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

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on Mon 2 Sep 2019 - 8:25
I feel the need to reiterate, I have never said Vader is equal to Sidious. I've explicitly said Sidious is the better of the two. Let me put it in perspective.

Everyone who has posted their list so far has both Dooku and Obi-Wan on the same tier, 8. Yet in every encounter between the two, Dooku has been solidly above Kenobi. In both movies, in The Clone Wars, doesn't matter. Dooku is definitely above Kenobi. That does not preclude the two from sharing the same tier.

For a similar reason, I have Vader on Palpatine's tier. Vader has displayed some of the most impressive feats in all of Canon, regardless of era. Army busting feats and TK that easily blows away any competition outside of arguably Yoda (depending on if you see Yoda's mountain feat as TK or TP). This puts Vader at tier 9. However, Sidious is still hugely above Vader. But below the likes of the Son, Daughter, and Father. Therefore, Sidious is also a Tier 9. Sidious would still stomp Vader in a confrontation, likely with relative ease (when it comes to a Force battle, at least), but they're at least in the same tier. If it helps any, you could think of Vader as 8.5, solidly above anyone else in 8, but still below any 9s.


Last edited by Underachiever599 on Mon 2 Sep 2019 - 19:38; edited 1 time in total
DoA
DoA

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on Mon 2 Sep 2019 - 13:24
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@DoA Nice to see you debating again bro.
I won't stand idly by while others put Vader on the same tier as Sheev  Force User Tiers - Page 2 4183286560
NotAA3
NotAA3
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on Mon 2 Sep 2019 - 21:49
BuT tHe LiSt.
dark_globe
dark_globe

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:11
my list is incomplete and it lacks many characters .
i just listed the most popular ones .


Tier 10:
(can only be defeated by each other , otherwise untouchable:
beings capable of unbalancing the force itself
and potentialy capable of destroying the galaxy)

mortis anakin
force gods and entities (the ones , abeloth etc)

tier 9.5:
(unparaleled "mortal" practiotioners of light and dark side of the force ,
can ragdoll/one shot almost any other mortal force user ,
capable of destroying/draining armies and planets on their own)

DE sidious
GM luke
valkorion

tier 9:
(exeptionally powerful and formidable force users capable of massive TK or drain feats ,
capable of fighting armies of droids on their own and capable of defeating or out right fodderize high tier jedi / sith masters)

any other version of sidious prior to DE
(TPM might be like tier 8.5)
KF vader/IH enraged anakin
yoda
darth krayt (in his prime)
amped mace windu
darth plagueis
vitiate

tier 8.5 :
(some of the best swordsmen in history are listed here
along with very powerful dark side practitioners)

darth tenebrous
darth tyranus
RoTS mace windu
RoTS anakin
RoTJ vader
RoTJ luke (with rage boost)
darth caedus
SoR revan
exar kun


tier 8: (exeptional lightsaber duelists capable of rivaling or beating tier 8.5 characters in sabers ,
but lacking the force powers to beat them in all out fight ,
could take a few rounds out of 10 against some of tier 8.5 characters under the right circumstances)

darth maul
RoTS obi wan


tier 7.5:
(very skilled high tier dark and light side users ,
capable of beating all but the best jedi masters or large groups of droids on their own)

ahsoka tano
RoTS kit fisto
Quinlan Vos
asajj ventress
savage opress

tier 7: (skilled high tier jedi / sith warriors)
qui-gon jinn
B-team (exept windu of course)


Last edited by dark_globe on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:35; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:34
@"dark _globe" this is canon bruh...
dark_globe
dark_globe

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:36
@HellfireUnit wrote:@"dark _globe" this is canon bruh...
then "erase" characters you don´t like .
list still stands no matter what characters are in it
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:39
@dark_globe wrote:my list is incomplete and it lacks many characters .
i just listed the most popular ones .


Tier 10:
(can only be defeated by each other , otherwise untouchable:
beings capable of unbalancing the force itself
and potentialy capable of destroying the galaxy)

mortis anakin
force gods and entities (the ones , abeloth etc)

tier 9.5:
(unparaleled "mortal" practiotioners of light and dark side of the force ,
can ragdoll/one shot almost any other mortal force user ,
capable of destroying/draining armies and planets on their own)

DE sidious
GM luke
valkorion

tier 9:
(exeptionally powerful and formidable force users capable of massive TK or drain feats ,
capable of fighting armies of droids on their own and capable of defeating or out right fodderize high tier jedi / sith masters)

any other version of sidious prior to DE
(TPM might be like tier 8.5)
KF vader/IH enraged anakin
yoda
darth krayt (in his prime)
amped mace windu
darth plagueis
vitiate

tier 8.5 :
(some of the best swordsmen in history are listed here
along with very powerful dark side practitioners)

darth tenebrous
darth tyranus
RoTS mace windu
RoTS anakin
RoTJ vader
RoTJ luke (with rage boost)
darth caedus
SoR revan
exar kun


tier 8: (exeptional lightsaber duelists capable of rivaling or beating tier 8.5 characters in sabers ,
but lacking the force powers to beat them in all out fight ,
could take a few rounds out of 10 against some of tier 8.5 characters under the right circumstances)

darth maul
RoTS obi wan


tier 7.5:
(very skilled high tier dark and light side users ,
capable of beating all but the best jedi masters or large groups of droids on their own)

ahsoka tano
RoTS kit fisto
Quinlan Vos
asajj ventress
savage opress

tier 7: (skilled high tier jedi / sith warriors)
qui-gon jinn
B-team (exept windu of course)
Wrong thread, my friend. You've listed a ton of Legends characters. This thread is supposed to be Canon only. Scaling in Canon is vastly different from scaling in Legends (mainly due to fewer feats in Canon, and none even remotely on the same scale as what we saw from the top tier in Legends), which should be taken into account when writing such a list. 

All that said, not a bad list. There are a few things I might move around a little, but it's pretty close to my own personal Legends list.
HellfireUnit
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:41
I don't think so. Vaapad and Anakin of RotS are mostly blank at the moment since RotS novelization is also n-canon. Besides that Disney took a different approach to most characters compared to EU.
dark_globe
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 10:50
modified list (still lacking many names) :
(not sure about snoke , probably anywhere between 9 and bottom of 8.5 , we needed more feats from him)

tier 10:

mortis anakin and the ones

tier 9+ :

RoTJ sidious
(presumably) luke (TLJ)

tier 9:

RoTS sidious
RoTS yoda
amped mace windu
KF/IH enraged anakin

tier 8.5:

count dooku / darth tyranus
RoTS mace windu
LS RoTS anakin
RoTJ vader
RoTJ luke (rage amped)

tier 8:

RoTS obi wan
darth maul

tier 7.5:

ahsoka tano
RoTS kit fisto
asajj ventress
savage opress
rey

tier 7:

qui-gon jinn
B-team
kylo
DC77 (Reborn)
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 18:27
Why is Rey>Kylo?
dark_globe
dark_globe

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 18:36
@DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Why is Rey>Kylo?
she has already managed to beat him in a duel (yes yes he was injured)
and that was with zero training .
she should be even more powerful by the time of TLJ ending .
we will see in TRoS but right now i have her slightly higher compared to kylo .
he is just annoying whiny brat tbh and he did not display anything impressive in combat thus far .
her TK feat in the end of TLJ lifting those rocks to free her friends was also impressive .
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 18:58
@dark_globe:

she has already managed to beat him in a duel (yes yes he was injured)

Let's look at the circumstances at play here:

>He'd been hit by a blast that was immediately ragdolling and killing stormtroopers, and bleeding badly as a result.
>He was emotionally unbalanced.
>He was trying to take her alive.
>She gained an emotional amp.

This is a non feat that certainly doesn't benefit Rey in anyway.

and that was with zero training .

She was also amped significantly.

she should be even more powerful by the time of TLJ ending

Why should she be better than her amped self? And why should her improvement make up for all the context?

we will see in TRoS but right now i have her slightly higher compared to kylo .

Based on absolutely nothing but personal bias as indicated below.

he is just annoying whiny brat tbh

And now we've reached the reason why you favour Rey, because you don't like Kylo. Knew we'd get there in the end. Him being a "whiny brat" has zero impact on his combative capability.

and he did not display anything impressive in combat thus far .

Besides, yah know doing better than Rey against the Praetorians.

her TK feat in the end of TLJ lifting those rocks to free her friends was also impressive .

An irrelevancy given we know Kylo is her equal in force power.

What Kylo has:

>Equal power and a lot more experience/training.
>A better combative performance against the same opponents (Praetorians).

What Rey has:

>Equal power and less training/experience.
>A victory against an emotionally destroyed holding back Kylo who could barely stand up properly while amped.

I know who my money is on, your horse kriff aside.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Thu 12 Dec 2019 - 19:08; edited 1 time in total
dark_globe
dark_globe

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:09
doesn´t change the fact that he lost agaist the girl who just discovered she is force sensitive .
yes the fight was circumstantional but still .
and of course she grew in power during the second movie same as ESB luke grew more powerful in RoTJ  .

kylo having more training is irrelevant since he did not beat anyone of note , did not display any impressive feats etc .
her TK feat from the end of TLJ is better and more impressive than anything kylo did so far .
(him being equal in the force on paper doesn´t mean he can utilize his powers with same effectiveness rey can ,
they have a same potential but that doesn´t mean both of them will utilize it with same effectiveness)

i dont know what movie were you watching but he did not do better against those guards . rey saved his life by sending him a lightsaber .


and for the record i don´t like either of them . they are both shallow cringeworthy characters .


Last edited by dark_globe on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:24; edited 1 time in total
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:23
@dark_globe:

doesn´t change the fact he lost .
yes the fight was circumstantional but still .

You cannot possibly be this thick. I'm having a hard time grasping this level of stupidity. You're literally sitting there and saying "Well yes, everything you posted is right but it doesn't matter because I say so". Do you have any idea of how utterly ridiculous you sound right now? Circumstances don't matter? Guess what then, TPM Kenobi>Maul. Sure he cheap shotted him but still.

him having more training is irrelevant since he did not beat anyone of note , did not display any impressive feats etc .

It absolutely is relevant. Consider: Kylo has equal power to Rey. He also has far more combative experience and training. It's therefore logical to assume Kylo is her better. If we put two men with the exact same physical stats against each other only one has ten years of martial arts training while the other doesn't, who do you think is gonna win? That's what we have here.

her TK feat from the end of TLJ is better and more impressive than anything kylo did so far .
(him being equal in the force on paper doesn´t mean he can utilize his powers with same effectiveness rey can)

He's not equal on paper, he stalemated her in a TK clash, ie: his applicable power is equal by feats. As for who's gonna be able to better use that power my money's on the guy who's been doing it for well over a decade, rather than the girl who just found out she could.

i dont know what movie were you watching but he did not do better agianst those guards . rey saved his life by sending him a lightsaber .

Rey nearly got killed fighting them in 1's and 2's. Kylo fought 3 and butchered his way through 2 of them. It doesn't take a genius to work out who's better. Now, let me ask: did you watch either of the movies given your apparent lack of knowledge on them?


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Thu 12 Dec 2019 - 19:10; edited 1 time in total
dark_globe
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:33
answer me which one of them was without a weapon being choked by one of the guards in the end  and saved by the other ?
who lost in a duel ? super trained kylo lost to an untrained girl who you admit just discovered she has some powers and skills
(hence his training is irrelevant if she could match him or best him in a duel after literaly no former lightsaber or force training)
did kylo display any TK feat comparable to rey lifting those rocks ? yes they break a lightsaber battling over it but we did not see the winner of that TK battle .
did you watch the movies given your apparent lack of knowledge of them and your hesitation to accept the reality ?

and don´t call me stupid you self centered brat .


Last edited by dark_globe on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:46; edited 2 times in total
SithSauce
SithSauce

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:36
@dark_globe Not very objective to say Kylo is the weakest force user just because you hate him as a character.
I dislike Mace Windu, but I have him (power wise) above most of my favourite Jedi/Sith
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 19:48
@dark_globe:

Answer me this before we begin you absolute karking dunderhead. What is your IQ? Is it above 10. This post seems to indicate it's not.

answer me which one of them was without a weapon being choked by one of the guards in the end  and saved by the other ?

Which one was it fighting 3 guards and butchering 2 of them? Was it Rey? Didn't think so. Which one nearly died fighting 1-2 guards? Was it Rey? Thought so.

who lost in a duel ? super trained kylo lost to an untrained girl who you admit just discovered she has some powers and skills

Which one of them was amped? Rey? Thought so? Which one of them was emotionally wrecked? Kylo? Thought so? Which one was holding back? Kylo? Thought so? Which one could barely stand up properly? Kylo? Thought so.

(hence his training is irrelevant if she could match him or best him in a duel after literaly no former lightsaber or force training)

It's irrelevant because Rey beat him in a fight with more circumstances that can be counted? Lmfao, your IQ must really be below 10. This isn't a rebuttal.

did kylo display any TK feat comparable to rey lifting those rocks ? yes they break a lightsaber battling over it but we did not see the winner of that TK battle .

We didn't see the winner because it was a draw you absolute karking laserbrain. The lightsaber split apart and knocked them both out because neither could overpower the other. It's simple.

did you watch the movies given your apparent hesitation to accept the reality ?

A better question would be: did you watch them?

and don´t call me stoopa you self centered brat .

I'll call you whatever I want thanks. Not my fault you were born with an IQ so low you don't have a shred of analytical ability or basic logic. I was gonna be nice but this level of idiocy doesn't demand civility, I haven't dealt with a user this lurdo since I did a 2 page debate against Emma on CV.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Thu 12 Dec 2019 - 19:11; edited 1 time in total
dark_globe
dark_globe

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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 20:01
did rey die or get seriously injured ? or did she beat them and was ready to fight some more ?
was kylo choked and defenceless untill rey saved him by sending him her lightsaber  you dumb idiot ?

you contradict yourself saying his training matters while it really doesn´t since
rey could match him or outperform him with her little to non training in both lightsaber combat and TK .
did kylo display this kind of focus and skill or something remotelly similar to TK lifting this much weight or not ?
obi wan stalemated anakin on mustafar in TK force push (does this mean he is equally powerful TK user ?)

whereas you are analytical genius LMAO ... complacent idiot (thinking your POV and interpretations are the only right options)  .


Last edited by dark_globe on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 20:11; edited 4 times in total
Praxis
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 20:02
Force User Tiers - Page 2 Giphy
DC77 (Reborn)
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on Tue 3 Sep 2019 - 20:13
@dark_globe:

did rey die or get seriously injured ? or did she beat them and was ready to fight some more ?

She got kicked onto the ground and put in a compromising position that would have resulted in a loss had there been more guards, not once, but twice. Kylo only gets put in a compromising position once, and it happens against a greater number of guards.

was kylo choked and defenceless untill rey saved him by sending him her lightsaber  you lurdo sculag ?

I see you're unable to count to 3, once again demonstrating your lack of intellect. Kylo was fighting more guards.

you contradict yourself saying his training matters while it really doesn´t since
rey could match him or outperform him with her little to non training in both lightsaber combat and TK .

Are you this dense? Rey matching him in sabers was a result of her gaining an amp, Kylo holding back, Kylo being injured and Kylo suffering from emotional unbalancing. Stop treating it like it's legit. As far as TK goes there isn't a contradiction, my argument was that he stalemated her in power (Hence the he=her in power statement), but due to his superior training is a better duellist who can use the force more effectively in combat.

did kylo display this kind of focus and skill or something remotelly similar to TK lifting this much weight or not ?

Like I said, it doesn't matter. we know he can replicate her feat given he matched her maximum telekinetic output. This is basic logic and how SW has been debated for years. He doesn't need a comparable feat, matching Rey is his feat.

whereas you are analytical genius LMAO ...complacent sculag .

Are you so lacking in creativity that you throw my own insults back at me?

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My gosh you're a nerf herder.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on Thu 12 Dec 2019 - 19:14; edited 2 times in total
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