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Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 3:39 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:@Underachiever599 Skimmed through your post, and it's a good counter. All I can say without revealing anything about my plans for my next post is that it's not the only thing putting Dooku close to Vader in canon.
I'm looking forward to seeing your next post
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 10th 2019, 3:47 pm
factually wrong cuz of the junior novelization vs every single piece of media that says that vader felt anakin taking over, how his love for luke, and luke's love for him was finally reaching vader's mind and heart, how he never wanted to even fight luke, and simply wanted to turn him to his side to actually kill sheev and free himself, how he knew that he couldnt lose that fight against luke cuz was he afraid that sheev would kill him, or mind kark him, or take over luke's body, or turn him into his new toyboy or whatever the hell.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 3:51 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:factually wrong cuz of the junior novelization vs every single piece of media that says that vader felt anakin taking over, how his love for luke, and luke's love for him was finally reaching vader's mind and heart, how he never wanted to even fight luke, and simply wanted to turn him to his side to actually kill sheev and free himself, how he knew that he couldnt lose that fight against luke cuz was he afraid that sheev would kill him, or mind kark him, or take over luke's body, or turn him into his new toyboy or whatever the hell.
Please provide sources for your claims. I'll post the full passages out of Beware the Power of the Dark Side when I get home and have access to my books, but so far, you haven't posted a single actual canon source or quote to back up your claim that Vader was a light sider in RotJ.

Hell, even the RotJ movie backs up my version of events. Luke tells Vader to "let go of [his] hate," implying Vader was still strongly fueled by hate during the movie. Hence, within the movie, Vader is conflicted, but fueled by hate. Ergo, a dark side user.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 5:17 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Okay, I am now home and able to post more in-depth with sourced quotes/passages from the books I own. So, to begin with, let’s look at RotJ Vader, his connection to the dark side, and the duel between Vader and Luke as described in Beware the Power of the Dark Side!, the official canon novelization for Return of the Jedi.


First, in the novel, we have Luke confronting Vader on Endor. When Vader first sees Luke, we get this little passage:


Vader could end all this right now. He could strike Luke down and be done—if not for his master’s orders. He certainly feels enough hate to do it. Of course, we know, reader, that Vader’s hate is not really hatred of Luke, but of his own past. But Vader has a fear of Luke, too. And fear and hate have long ruled this powerful Sith Lord.


So, we know Vader’s primary source of hatred, and thus, power, is self-hatred. A bit later into the conversation, we have this bit:


But Luke isn’t going to be distracted.
“Come with me,” he says.
Now Vader truly understands why he has feared his son so much. Not because of his mastery of the Force or skill with a lightsaber. But because Luke can make him question the dark truths that have long ruled him.
Defensively, he recites these truths now . . . even as he begins to wonder if they really are true.


First, the quote does establish that Luke has “mastery of the force” and skill with a lightsaber, but those aren’t the reasons Vader fears him at this point. Vader fears him because Luke is able to make Vader question the decisions he’s made in the past. So yes, Luke is capable of making Vader feel conflicted. But @lorenzo.r.2nd ‘s claim is that Vader was a “semi light side” user. So let’s look a bit farther and see if that’s the case:


“Search your feelings, Father. You can’t do this. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.”
Luke’s attack has at last reached into the great, dark, troubled mind of Anakin Skywalker. And to Vader it is far more painful than the lightsaber slash Luke scored in Cloud City.
But even this is not enough, Luke. Ah, they all tried to warn you; the dark side is strong. Vader uses it to close off the questions, the memories, the hopes. The dark truths are true again.
“It is too late for me, son. The Emperor will show you the true nature of the Force. He is your master now.”
Vader turns abruptly and signals two of his two stormtroopers to come take the prisoner.
The battle is over and Luke has lost.


Vader briefly questioned the dark side due to Luke’s offer on Endor, but he re-committed himself to the dark side and used it to close off the conflict. “The dark truths are true again.” Luke may have briefly gotten Vader to question his actions, but at the end of the confrontation, Vader is still committed to what he feels is truth: the dark side.


Next, let’s look at the actual duel itself.


And now the two must fight again.
Blades whirl and clash and spark. Luke crouches low, ready to either dodge or lunge. Vader stands tall and simply pushes forward, driving Luke backward with powerful swings.
But now Luke spins and changes the flow of the attack, surprising Vader who is just a little too slow to turn. Luke rushes in to bring down a mighty two-handed blow. Vader blocks it, but finds himself thrown off balance by the intensity of it. He steps back, not realizing that Luke had driven him to the edge of the stairs.
He falls and Luke is preparing to leap down after him when he hears the Emperor behind him.
“Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.”
Again, the Emperor is telling the truth and Luke knows it. He has won, but only by using the dark side of the Force. The hate is flowing through him and he is winning this battle against his father because of it.
Luke looks down at this father, clambering to his feet at the foot of the stairs. He had told Obi-Wan he couldn’t kill his father . . . and yet he almost had.
He turns off his lightsaber and at the same time attempts to turn off the hate and anger.


The start of the fight is brief. Incredibly brief. Both in the movie and the novelization. Barely 8 seconds in the movie. Barely two paragraphs here. And Luke has already beaten Vader by giving in to his anger. Even in similar situations where we’ve seen a character get a rage-amp (Obi-Wan vs. Maul, Anakin vs. Dooku), it still took some time for the amped character to win. Here, Luke does so in a matter of seconds. This implies amped Luke is well above RotJ Vader, who I’ve already established is still a dark side user and who draws his power from self-hatred, not hatred for Luke.


On top of this, after Luke explicitly “attempts to turn off the hate and anger,” we see Luke matching Vader in the movie, engaging in multiple blade locks and matching Vader in raw strength. On top of that, Luke even overpowers Vader in one of the lightsaber binds, immediately before leaping out of Vader’s reach. So RotJ Luke, explicitly not using the dark side, is still equal to, if not greater than Vader in terms of raw Force augmentation.


Then we have the end of the duel:


“Never!” screams Luke, launching himself out of the gloom, lightsaber blazing, fighting as he has never fought before.
He swings wildly, madly, using the dark side to move faster and strike harder. He has felt anger and hate before, but never this much fear . . . fear for his sister, Leia.
It is too much for Vader. He blocks attack after attack but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear . . . but it is not enough. Luke lands a blow on his arm, then one on his side.
The Sith Lord is forced backward until he reaches the bridge over the reactor shaft. Here he tries to strike back, but Luke knocks him down. He sprawls onto the bridge, lifting his lightsaber in a vain attempt to block whatever comes next. But Luke slashes with his saber, slicing Vader’s arm off. The metal limb tumbles down into the shaft, taking the lightsaber with it.


The bolded statement here makes it perfectly clear, Vader is “always fueled by hate,” which applies to the duel earlier as well. On top of that, as Luke was beating down Vader, Vader explicitly “gathers additional strength from fear,” but “it is not enough.” Therefore Luke, amped by fear for Leia, is greater than hatred- and fear-amped Vader.


So, in summary, RotJ Luke as a light sider has at least some parity to dark side RotJ Vader, and amped Luke is massively above Vader, even after Vader gathers additional strength from his fear. Ergo, an argument could be made that RotJ Luke, in canon, may be closer to a Tier 9 than a Tier 8, were it not simply for a lack of feats. I haven’t even gotten into the number of statements which back up this viewpoint. Thankfully, we’re getting a Star Wars comic in 2020 that focuses on the Rebellion post-ESB, which should give us a greater insight into RotJ-era Luke.


Since I have a bit of free time, I think I’m going to work on a canon Luke Respect Thread (my first respect thread, actually). It should highlight how impressive Luke actually is in canon, with plenty of comparisons to similar showings in The Clone Wars and the Prequel Trilogy movies. I might not have time to finish it tonight, but I’ll try my best to have the framework up in a few hours.
BreakofDawn
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December 10th 2019, 5:19 pm
ROTJ enraged Luke is basically Zonakin.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 5:21 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:ROTJ enraged Luke is basically Zonakin.
Yeah, I have amped RotJ Luke right up there with Zonakin. I think there's very, very few characters in Canon who can stand against that kind of raw power.
BreakofDawn
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December 10th 2019, 5:24 pm
@Underachiever599 wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:ROTJ enraged Luke is basically Zonakin.
Yeah, I have amped RotJ Luke right up there with Zonakin. I think there's very, very few characters in Canon who can stand against that kind of raw power.
Looking back at the nature of the amp, I'm genuinely inclined to agree. I also think it's not something he could replicate again, either.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 5:27 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Underachiever599 wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:ROTJ enraged Luke is basically Zonakin.
Yeah, I have amped RotJ Luke right up there with Zonakin. I think there's very, very few characters in Canon who can stand against that kind of raw power.
Looking back at the nature of the amp, I'm genuinely inclined to agree. I also think it's not something he could replicate again, either.
The amp at the end of the duel? He absolutely can't replicate that again. But the amp at the start? He was just drawing on basic anger when he stomped Vader in 8 seconds. I see no reason this early amp couldn't be replicated, especially against other duelist who have a tendency to taunt, like Dooku for example.
BreakofDawn
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December 10th 2019, 5:38 pm
Tbf, he was on the offensive from the onset of that fight while Vader was on the defensive and fighting a much more agile opponent.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 5:51 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Tbf, he was on the offensive from the onset of that fight while Vader was on the defensive and fighting a much more agile opponent.
Re-read the passage I'd posted from Beware the Power of the Dark Side! Luke may have launched the first attack (at Sidious, not Vader), but once the fight truly kicks off, Vader is the one on the offensive from the onset. Luke turns the tables on Vader too quickly for Vader to react and a two-handed strike from Luke that Vader blocked still packed enough force to knock Vader off-balance, leading to what we see in the movie.
BreakofDawn
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December 10th 2019, 5:53 pm
Re-read the passage I'd posted from Beware the Power of the Dark Side! Luke may have launched the first attack (at Sidious, not Vader), but once the fight truly kicks off, Vader is the one on the offensive from the onset. Luke turns the tables on Vader too quickly for Vader to react and a two-handed strike from Luke that Vader blocked still packed enough force to knock Vader off-balance, leading to what we see in the movie.
IIRC, the film, ROTJ novel and TR&FDV all suggest that it's Luke on the offensive and forcing Vader back (presumably through being much better than before and also by outmanoeuvring the clunky cyborg).
Rohirrim
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December 10th 2019, 6:35 pm
Luke certainly got the upper hand in the beginning, though I wouldn't say he defeated Vader for good just because he kicked him down the stairs. A more powerful Luke took much longer to disarm Vader later on.

Still, I do think Luke is Anakin level by this point, and if it's true that he pulled down Star Destroyers on Jakku a year later (which is stated by two different IU sources atm), that would prove he grew much more rapidly in power than his father did.
BreakofDawn
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December 10th 2019, 6:37 pm
Wasn't that a rumour/legend spread about him?
Rohirrim
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December 10th 2019, 6:54 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Wasn't that a rumour/legend spread about him?
Yes, they are just stories told by a few characters in The Legends of Luke Skywalker and Force Collector. That's what I was reffering to when I said "IU sources", though my use of the term might've been inappropiate.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 10th 2019, 7:08 pm
u kinda gave answered one of my problems. u want to back up ur claim that vader was enraged and using the dark fully because he was mad at himself. but the force works only with a stable mind. does this sound stable to u? at all? and secondly, him hating himself is supposed to be something good now? as far as getting one stronger, hating ur enemy is what works, not some dead lurdo 20 y/o who didnt use condoms. thirdly, if he really were to have been fully cleansed of his 'anakiness' why would he hate himself? he knows that an unstable mind leads to unstable force control, and an even more unstable warrior. he is no fool. but if thats case, why would he still think like anakin from time to time? why would he think about padme, luke, obi wan, the jedi, and kriff like that so often? and yet again, if he was truly a dark sider he would not have wavered, like oh so loves to do. 

statements to back my stuff up, i suppose. luke saying he could feel his dad in vader.

Young Luke had tasted the power of the Dark Side through his anger and his fear. Doubt clouded his mind, and he was unsure he could survive another confrontation with his father. Yet he was also sure that there was still good in his father; he was willing to risk everything to attempt to bring it out. Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi


vader yet again confirms that anakin is within him/his mind without his actually realizing for a long time too. this actually shows that vader can barely even tell if anakin is there or not. 

"You killed her. That was good - it brought you to me."
You killed her. That was good. Vader was shocked at the grief and anger that roiled through him at his Master's words. He could easily have struck his Master down.
Lord Sidious smiled. "You see?" he taunted.
His Master was right. Anakin wasn't dead. If Anakin were truly dead, he would not be feeling this despair. Last of the Jedi: Reckoning

some more stuff that FROM ROTJ

"The Death Star will be completed on schedule, my master," Vader breathed.
"Yes, I know," replied the Emperor. "You have done well, Lord Vader...and now I sense you wish to continue your search for the young Skywalker."
Vader smiled beneath his armored mask. The Emperor always knew the sense of what was in his heart; even if he didn't know the specifics. "Yes, my master."
"Patience, my friend," the Supreme Ruler cautioned. "You always had difficulty showing patience. In time, he will seek you out..and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force." Return of the Jedi

him saying that if it werent for how powerful sheev was, he wouldve done what he wanted long ago. btw, sheev mind karked him about every monday, so by this point, vader was low key super crazy

"You don't know the power of the dark side! I must obey my master." Return of the Jedi


since u seem to know that luke was mad right from the start, and only got madder as time passed, i suppose the only thing left to mention is the fact that palpatine can make people stronger using two different methods. first and foremost, he can use battle meditation, and secondly, he can either amp whomever he wants by using the dark side, or he is somehow a dark side nexus. i actually think he can do and is both of them, but i only have this for now

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor. 

considering the fact that he wanted luke to win, i can easily say this to be the case.

mentally unstable vader+ possible weakening cuz of battle meditation+ possible weakening through a nexus =< hella pissed luke + possible use of battle meditation+ possible use of some dark side nexus+ possible use of some power amping ability.

yet another thing to take into account: the more time passed, the more anakin esc vader became, and more enraged luke became, henceforth, by the end of the duel, luke grew a lot in power, while vader only degraded. AND now a final thing, IF sheev was indeed a nexus, this wouldve made vader weaker every time tapped into the light side.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 10th 2019, 7:11 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Wasn't that a rumour/legend spread about him?
i actually wouldnt doubt it. vader considers him to be prime kenobi+ in power, and prime kenobi was around dooku lvl imo. remember when u said old ben was even stronger? that would make luke> old ben> prime kenobi= deflecting anakin's blasts= anakin's power= anakin making force fields around whole villages
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 7:34 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Re-read the passage I'd posted from Beware the Power of the Dark Side! Luke may have launched the first attack (at Sidious, not Vader), but once the fight truly kicks off, Vader is the one on the offensive from the onset. Luke turns the tables on Vader too quickly for Vader to react and a two-handed strike from Luke that Vader blocked still packed enough force to knock Vader off-balance, leading to what we see in the movie.
IIRC, the film, ROTJ novel and TR&FDV all suggest that it's Luke on the offensive and forcing Vader back (presumably through being much better than before and also by outmanoeuvring the clunky cyborg).
This is canon only. The old RotJ Novel and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader are both Legends. The film cuts back to the fight midway, with several seconds of the duel left on the cutting room floor. Beware the Power of the Dark Side! is our only canon novel that depicts the duel at the moment. Again, this is a canon topic, not a Legends one.
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December 10th 2019, 7:39 pm
Oh, my bad lol. Thought we were talking generally for a minute.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 10th 2019, 7:47 pm
wait, only 1 canon depiction of the fight? wtf lol
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 7:49 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:u kinda gave answered one of my problems. u want to back up ur claim that vader was enraged and using the dark fully because he was mad at himself. but the force works only with a stable mind. does this sound stable to u? at all? and secondly, him hating himself is supposed to be something good now? as far as getting one stronger, hating ur enemy is what works, not some dead lurdo 20 y/o who didnt use condoms. thirdly, if he really were to have been fully cleansed of his 'anakiness' why would he hate himself? he knows that an unstable mind leads to unstable force control, and an even more unstable warrior. he is no fool. but if thats case, why would he still think like anakin from time to time? why would he think about padme, luke, obi wan, the jedi, and kriff like that so often? and yet again, if he was truly a dark sider he would not have wavered, like oh so loves to do. 

statements to back my stuff up, i suppose. luke saying he could feel his dad in vader.

Young Luke had tasted the power of the Dark Side through his anger and his fear. Doubt clouded his mind, and he was unsure he could survive another confrontation with his father. Yet he was also sure that there was still good in his father; he was willing to risk everything to attempt to bring it out. Galaxy Guide 5: Return of the Jedi


vader yet again confirms that anakin is within him/his mind without his actually realizing for a long time too. this actually shows that vader can barely even tell if anakin is there or not. 

"You killed her. That was good - it brought you to me."
You killed her. That was good. Vader was shocked at the grief and anger that roiled through him at his Master's words. He could easily have struck his Master down.
Lord Sidious smiled. "You see?" he taunted.
His Master was right. Anakin wasn't dead. If Anakin were truly dead, he would not be feeling this despair. Last of the Jedi: Reckoning

some more stuff that FROM ROTJ

"The Death Star will be completed on schedule, my master," Vader breathed.
"Yes, I know," replied the Emperor. "You have done well, Lord Vader...and now I sense you wish to continue your search for the young Skywalker."
Vader smiled beneath his armored mask. The Emperor always knew the sense of what was in his heart; even if he didn't know the specifics. "Yes, my master."
"Patience, my friend," the Supreme Ruler cautioned. "You always had difficulty showing patience. In time, he will seek you out..and when he does, you must bring him before me. He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force." Return of the Jedi

him saying that if it werent for how powerful sheev was, he wouldve done what he wanted long ago. btw, sheev mind karked him about every monday, so by this point, vader was low key super crazy

"You don't know the power of the dark side! I must obey my master." Return of the Jedi


since u seem to know that luke was mad right from the start, and only got madder as time passed, i suppose the only thing left to mention is the fact that palpatine can make people stronger using two different methods. first and foremost, he can use battle meditation, and secondly, he can either amp whomever he wants by using the dark side, or he is somehow a dark side nexus. i actually think he can do and is both of them, but i only have this for now

During the Rebellion era, dark side devotees become a bit more open, drawn by the power of the Emperor and their acceptance into his court. They are much easier to find anywhere in the Empire, especially in the Imperial Palace, where their power is focused and augmented by that of the Emperor. 

considering the fact that he wanted luke to win, i can easily say this to be the case.

mentally unstable vader+ possible weakening cuz of battle meditation+ possible weakening through a nexus =< hella pissed luke + possible use of battle meditation+ possible use of some dark side nexus+ possible use of some power amping ability.

yet another thing to take into account: the more time passed, the more anakin esc vader became, and more enraged luke became, henceforth, by the end of the duel, luke grew a lot in power, while vader only degraded. AND now a final thing, IF sheev was indeed a nexus, this wouldve made vader weaker every time tapped into the light side.

First off, strong emotions fuel the dark side. It doesn't matter what the source is. Hatred, fear, anger, they're all fuel for the dark side's power. Even in Legends, this was the case. And Vader's source of hatred is himself, his past. He'll do anything and everything he can to kill his past. It's why he levied such hatred and power against Ahsoka in Rebels, per Filoni. She's a reminder of his past, of the thing he hates more than anything else in the galaxy. The light side of the Force is about stability and balance. The dark side is a different beast entirely. 

And just because he's committed to the dark side doesn't mean Anakin never existed. He wants to purge himself of anything that reminds him of his past, but when his biological son is right there in front of him, deliberately reminding Vader of that past, of course he's going to remember his past. Of course he's going to doubt the choices that brought him here. But the fact is, I have provided a quote directly from a canon source that tells us Vader closed the door on that part of himself and made the "dark truths" true again. 

Oh, speaking of proper canon sources:

Galaxy Guide 5 is Legends.

Last of the Jedi: Reckoning is also Legends. 

Your Return of the Jedi quote proves nothing other than that Luke is so powerful that Sidious believes Vader alone can't turn Luke to the dark side. "He has grown strong. Only together can we turn him to the dark side of the Force." Also, your RotJ source is the novelization, which is Legends, not canon. Again, only Beware the Power of the Dark Side! is currently canon, not the original novelization. Your claim that Sidious had driven Vader to madness and was "mind karking" him has no evidence in canon.

"You don't know the power of the dark side! I must obey my master." All this quote proves is that Vader was afraid to turn against Sidious, because Sidious is more powerful than him. You can infer and make up as much head canon as you want, but none if it is definitively stated within canon lore, which is what this thread is discussing.

Your claims about Sidious using Battle Meditation or amping dark siders are, again, Legends only. This is a canon thread. You need to learn to distinguish between the two. 

Also, your claim that he wanted Luke to win is false. He wanted the more powerful combatant to win. He wanted the strongest apprentice he could have. George Lucas says as much: 

 You know, let's face it. Darth Vader is half-mechanical. He's not nearly as good as he could be. He's not nearly as good as he was hoping Anakin would become. Like he is as he ends up in this confrontation that puts him in this suit. So he's hoping to get a new, better young apprentice in Luke.
 
That's a statement from George Lucas in the 2004 commentary of Return of the Jedi. His goal is to have a better apprentice. Yes, he expects Luke to win, but that's because Luke is actually better than Vader.

Again, none of your statements regarding Vader becoming Anakin as the duel progressed are relevant to canon. I posted the only canon primary source outside of the movie that covers the duel, and it explicitly mentions Vader calling on both hatred and fear to fuel his power in the dark side.
Underachiever599
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December 10th 2019, 7:50 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:wait, only 1 canon depiction of the fight? wtf lol
We have the movie and a single canon novelization. Those are the only two canon sources that have depicted this duel. The rest are currently Legends.
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December 10th 2019, 7:53 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Oh, my bad lol. Thought we were talking generally for a minute.
If we were talking generally, this would be an entirely different matter. Canon RotJ Luke seems well above Legends RotJ Luke, from what I can tell, weird Legends scaling aside. Canon Luke is simply lacking for feats due to lack of exposure post ESB, while Legends Luke has an overabundance of anti-feats surrounding him at every corner up until he hits the level of Grand Master.
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December 10th 2019, 8:03 pm
Legends ROTJ Luke is all over the place. In the films, he's >/= ROTJ Vader. In the EU, he varies from being >> ROTJ Vader to being ~ him. Canon I'd say he's > a conflicted ROTJ Vader in sabers but I don't think he's as powerful in the Force. Not to mention we have dark side Kyp w/ Kun's spirit being suggested to be still below Vader as a threat.
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December 10th 2019, 8:10 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Legends ROTJ Luke is all over the place. In the films, he's >/= ROTJ Vader. In the EU, he varies from being >> ROTJ Vader to being ~ him. Canon I'd say he's > a conflicted ROTJ Vader in sabers but I don't think he's as powerful in the Force. Not to mention we have dark side Kyp w/ Kun's spirit being suggested to be still below Vader as a threat.
I honestly can't make heads or tales of Legends scaling post-RotJ. It feels like it's just all over the place, and none of it makes sense when you apply half an ounce of logic to it. It's part of why I prefer sticking to either pre-RotJ topics or canon topics.
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Force User Tiers - Page 5 Empty Re: Force User Tiers

December 10th 2019, 8:28 pm
Yeah, ROTJ onwards scaling is laughable, tbh. It's like how GM Luke faces a new threat that's hyped up to be approaching him in power every other Tuesday. According to Legends:

Abeloth >>> Kyp Durron > GM Luke >>> DE Luke > DE Sidious >>> Darth Caedus > ROTJ Vader (EU) >>> ROTJ Luke = ROTJ Vader (films).

It's a mess.
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Force User Tiers - Page 5 Empty Re: Force User Tiers

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