Top Fifteen Tournament - New and Updated Format

I thought you had Vaylin below AotC Anakin

KingKopecz wrote:I thought you had Vaylin below AotC Anakin

I was genuinely trolling there, it seems there is a easily irritable TOR fan presence on this site, so I felt like lowballing since they always wank their characters to death.

Personally I really like TOR, but the hardcore fans treat it like the second coming of Christ almighty.

Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

KingKopecz wrote:Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

Krayt has supremacy quotes placing him as GM Luke's equal, and I know this forum loves the use of quotes over actual feats.  Not true Imo since Luke is my fav, but regardless Krayt toyed with a Dooku tier fighter in Cade, and contributed significantly to the Abeloth fight.

ROTJ Vader has supremacy over KFV via the ROTJ novel.  The only thing KFV has over ROTJ is abritrary accolades claiming he is an equal to ROTS Sidious or Yoda which is quite clearly false when examining their respective feats.  Maul is > KFV because Maul supposedly "easily" beat Grievous in a duel, who I consider the best duelist in tier 8.  I cannot see Anakin replicating this since even when he easily beat Dooku, he had a form advantage, Maul didn't. I'd probably put ROTJ Vader over Maul if he didn't have a speed hindrance.

Tulak Horde is a goat, don't know why he wouldn't be on the list tbh.

iamthatguy wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

Krayt has supremacy quotes placing him as GM Luke's equal, and I know this forum loves the use of quotes over actual feats.  Not true Imo since Luke is my fav, but regardless Krayt toyed with a Dooku tier fighter in Cade, and contributed significantly to the Abeloth fight.

ROTJ Vader has supremacy over KFV via the ROTJ novel.  The only thing KFV has over ROTJ is abritrary accolades claiming he is an equal to ROTS Sidious or Yoda which is quite clearly false when examining their respective feats.  Maul is > KFV because Maul supposedly "easily" beat Grievous in a duel, who I consider the best duelist in tier 8.  I cannot see Anakin replicating this since even when he easily beat Dooku, he had a form advantage, Maul didn't. I'd probably put ROTJ Vader over Maul if he didn't have a speed hindrance.

Tulak Horde is a goat, don't know why he wouldn't be on the list tbh.

1) They've been debunked. Cade isn't Dooku tier tf.
2) RotJ Vader's supremacy quotes are contradicted be G-canon and a tier 9 would stomp Grievous even if Grievous is a tier 8 considering the difference is "enormous".
3) Sub Kun

1) They've been debunked. Cade isn't Dooku tier tf.

Link? I'll give it a read.

2) RotJ Vader's supremacy quotes are contradicted be G-canon and a tier 9 would stomp Grievous even if Grievous is a tier 8 considering the difference is "enormous".

They're not contradicted by G Canon, just arbitrary interpretations of said quotes which have Anakin being Sidious level in ROTS. I've yet to see KFV do something that suggests he could easily beat Grievous as Maul had, let alone stomp. Tier 9s don't stomp tier 8s either, especially since Grievous is probably the best duelist in tier 8.

3) Sub Kun

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/20/30/38/24/fis74o10.jpg

iamthatguy wrote:

1) They've been debunked. Cade isn't Dooku tier tf.

Link? I'll give it a read.

2) RotJ Vader's supremacy quotes are contradicted be G-canon and a tier 9 would stomp Grievous even if Grievous is a tier 8 considering the difference is "enormous".

They're not contradicted by G Canon, just arbitrary interpretations of said quotes which have Anakin being Sidious level in ROTS.  I've yet to see KFV do something that suggests he could easily beat Grievous as Maul had, let alone stomp.  Tier 9s don't stomp tier 8s either, especially since Grievous is probably the best duelist in tier 8.

3) Sub Kun

https://i.servimg.com/u/f86/20/30/38/24/fis74o10.jpg

1) https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1087-apoc-krayt-luke-claim-examined?highlight=apoc
2) They are though. RotJ Vader is sub TPM Maul. Even if you're gonna dismiss Lucas' KFV = RotS Palps quote because it's arbitrary he's still far from being sub TPM Maul.
Why don't tier 9s stomp tier 8s?

1) https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1087-apoc-krayt-luke-claim-examined?highlight=apoc

Ty!

2) They are though. RotJ Vader is sub TPM Maul.

ROTJ Vader isn't sub TPM Maul.  Using Lucas quotes from almost two decades ago isn't a strong foundation for an argument, and Lucas has long retconned that statement by comparing Vader to Maul and Dooku, who are not sub Jinn.  The EU (which is now apart of Lucas Canon) displays Vader on the same level as Maul and Dooku, and his former KFV self.

Even if you're gonna dismiss Lucas' KFV = RotS Palps quote because it's arbitrary he's still far from being sub TPM Maul.

I am referring to SoD Maul, not TPM Maul.  Hence why I brought up the Grievous fight, as I don't think TPM Maul could beat Grievous for a majority.  I was honestly surprised SoD Maul could beat Grievous, and easily at that.  That really made me raise Maul tbh.

Why don't tier 9s stomp tier 8s?

Well, I mean they can, but it really depends on the fighter itself and their place in tier 9.  But it's not a golden rule that tier 9s stomp tier 8s.

Wait why tf did I put Tulak Horde I meant Unuthul lmfaooo.

iamthatguy wrote:ROTJ Vader isn't sub TPM Maul.  Using Lucas quotes from almost two decades ago isn't a strong foundation for an argument, and Lucas has long retconned that statement by comparing Vader to Maul and Dooku, who are not sub Jinn.  The EU (which is now apart of Lucas Canon) displays Vader on the same level as Maul and Dooku, and his former KFV self.

You mean a completely unquantifiable statement? Yeah no the quote from 2 decades ago still stands.

I am referring to SoD Maul, not TPM Maul.  Hence why I brought up the Grievous fight, as I don't think TPM Maul could beat Grievous for a majority.  I was honestly surprised SoD Maul could beat Grievous, and easily at that.  That really made me raise Maul tbh.

I brought up TPM Maul to show how buried RotJ Vader is from KFV.

Well, I mean they can, but it really depends on the fighter itself and their place in tier 9.  But it's not a golden rule that tier 9s stomp tier 8s.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."
Grievous get's atomized by KFV.

You mean a completely unquantifiable statement? Yeah no the quote from 2 decades ago still stands.

Vader's EU feats are not unquantifiable.

I brought up TPM Maul to show how buried RotJ Vader is from KFV.

Yeah but nothing puts EU Vader below TPM Maul.

"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."
Grievous get's atomized by KFV.

KFV couldn't even atomize Drallig, a tier 7 who's inferior to the likes of Fisto. How is he going to atomize the best duelist in tier 8?

iamthatguy wrote:Vader's EU feats are not unquantifiable.

I never said they were. I was referring to the Lucas quote that says Vader is "like" Maul and Dooku.

Yeah but nothing puts EU Vader below TPM Maul.

Except for Lucas and Resurrection.

KFV couldn't even atomize Drallig, a tier 7 who's inferior to the likes of Fisto. How is he going to atomize the best duelist in tier 8?

He killed Drallig in 2 swings tf.

I never said they were. I was referring to the Lucas quote that says Vader is "like" Maul and Dooku.

I know what you were referring to, but Vader's EU feats certainly disprove Lucas' former belief that Jinn>Vader.  Find me a quote from him post ROTS putting Jinn above OT Vader.

Except for Lucas and Resurrection.

So a two decade old Lucas quote which is incorrect per the EU and TPM Maul beating ANH Vader is your basis for an argument?

He killed Drallig in 2 swings tf.

Lol no he didn't, they fought on screen for 10 seconds before Obi Wan skipped to the Emperor naming Vader, which fits with the ROTS novel.

iamthatguy wrote:I know what you were referring to, but Vader's EU feats certainly disprove Lucas' former belief that Jinn>Vader.

No they don't. All they do is elevate Jinn because he scales above them.

Find me a quote from him post ROTS putting Jinn above OT Vader.

Not needed as you've failed to contradict the old one.

So a two decade old Lucas quote which is incorrect per the EU and TPM Maul beating ANH Vader is your basis for an argument?

It isn't incorrect "per the EU".

Lol no he didn't, they fought on screen for 10 seconds before Obi Wan skipped to the Emperor naming Vader, which fits with the ROTS novel.

He didn't fight Cin for 10 seconds. Lightsaber clashes can be heard for 10 seconds because Vader was fighting many Jedi in the hologram not just Cin.

Btw are you Erkan12?

KingKopecz wrote:Btw are you Erkan12?

iamthatguy wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

Krayt has supremacy quotes placing him as GM Luke's equal, and I know this forum loves the use of quotes over actual feats.  Not true Imo since Luke is my fav, but regardless Krayt toyed with a Dooku tier fighter in Cade, and contributed significantly to the Abeloth fight.

ROTJ Vader has supremacy over KFV via the ROTJ novel.  The only thing KFV has over ROTJ is abritrary accolades claiming he is an equal to ROTS Sidious or Yoda which is quite clearly false when examining their respective feats.  Maul is > KFV because Maul supposedly "easily" beat Grievous in a duel, who I consider the best duelist in tier 8.  I cannot see Anakin replicating this since even when he easily beat Dooku, he had a form advantage, Maul didn't. I'd probably put ROTJ Vader over Maul if he didn't have a speed hindrance.

Tulak Horde is a goat, don't know why he wouldn't be on the list tbh.

Your Lord Tenebrous from ComicVine, aren't you?

KingKopecz wrote:Btw are you Erkan12?

No I am not, I don't use comicvine since it has so little SW forum activity.

The Slick Obi wrote:

iamthatguy wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

Krayt has supremacy quotes placing him as GM Luke's equal, and I know this forum loves the use of quotes over actual feats.  Not true Imo since Luke is my fav, but regardless Krayt toyed with a Dooku tier fighter in Cade, and contributed significantly to the Abeloth fight.

ROTJ Vader has supremacy over KFV via the ROTJ novel.  The only thing KFV has over ROTJ is abritrary accolades claiming he is an equal to ROTS Sidious or Yoda which is quite clearly false when examining their respective feats.  Maul is > KFV because Maul supposedly "easily" beat Grievous in a duel, who I consider the best duelist in tier 8.  I cannot see Anakin replicating this since even when he easily beat Dooku, he had a form advantage, Maul didn't. I'd probably put ROTJ Vader over Maul if he didn't have a speed hindrance.

Tulak Horde is a goat, don't know why he wouldn't be on the list tbh.

Your Lord Tenebrous from ComicVine, aren't you?

No I am not.

iamthatguy wrote:

KingKopecz wrote:Why is Krayt at 2?
Why is KFV on the same level as RotJ Vader and below Maul?
Why is Tulak Hord even on the list?

Krayt has supremacy quotes placing him as GM Luke's equal, and I know this forum loves the use of quotes over actual feats.  Not true Imo since Luke is my fav, but regardless Krayt toyed with a Dooku tier fighter in Cade, and contributed significantly to the Abeloth fight.

ROTJ Vader has supremacy over KFV via the ROTJ novel.  The only thing KFV has over ROTJ is abritrary accolades claiming he is an equal to ROTS Sidious or Yoda which is quite clearly false when examining their respective feats.  Maul is > KFV because Maul supposedly "easily" beat Grievous in a duel, who I consider the best duelist in tier 8.  I cannot see Anakin replicating this since even when he easily beat Dooku, he had a form advantage, Maul didn't. I'd probably put ROTJ Vader over Maul if he didn't have a speed hindrance.

Tulak Horde is a goat, don't know why he wouldn't be on the list tbh.

Id like to see this Krayt supremacy quote

and btw the way the official LFL Ranking system works is
G > T > C > S - Canon so Lucas statements putting Jinn > Vader are the highest level of Canon and binding so if you have Vader > Jinn that is canonically incorrect

Id like to see this Krayt supremacy quote

It's the dark counterpart quote.  And while I don't necessarily have Krayt equal to Luke based on that, I have Luke so far above DE Sidious that Krayt is above him as well based on the quote.

and btw the way the official LFL Ranking system works is
G > T > C > S - Canon so Lucas statements putting Jinn > Vader are the highest level of Canon and binding so if you have Vader > Jinn that is canonically incorrect

That was a quote from two decades ago. Find me a post-ROTS quote from Lucas claiming the same thing. In fact, he's compared OT Vader to Maul and Dooku directly post-ROTS.

Furthermore, now that Disney Canon is a thing, Lucas Canon and the EU were forced into one continuity: Legends, and the EU certainly doesn't portray Vader as sub Jinn.

@iamthatguy

I have Luke so far above DE Sidious

Why, what indicates that LOTF Luke is > DE Sheev, Sheev is far more powerful than both Luke and Krayt at this point

Krayt is above him as well based on the quote.

Sidious is confirmed > Krayt

That was a quote from two decades ago. Find me a post-ROTS quote from Lucas claiming the same thing.

Doesn't matter its a binding G-canon statement of the highest canonicity and hasn't been retconned by anything of higher canon

the EU certainly doesn't portray Vader as sub Jinn.

Why not? Jinn matches Maul who is the most powerful Sith in galactic history up until his day, that's better than anything Suit Vader has done

Why, what indicates that LOTF Luke is > DE Sheev, Sheev is far more powerful than both Luke and Krayt at this point

Because DE Luke was comparable to DE Sidious, who could only manifest his full power through force storms.

Sidious is confirmed > Krayt

Than TCW Sidious is > Nyax if we go by the "modern times" quotes.

Doesn't matter its a binding G-canon statement of the highest canonicity and hasn't been retconned by anything of higher canon

It has actually since post-ROTS OT Vader has been compared to Dooku and Maul in power.

Why not? Jinn matches Maul who is the most powerful Sith in galactic history up until his day, that's better than anything Suit Vader has done

Vader replicated Jinn's feat of fighting TPM Maul competitively, so no.

And TPM Sidious and Plagueis>>TPM Maul.

@iamthatguy

Because DE Luke was comparable to DE Sidious

DE Luke was in no way comparable to DE Sheev, Sheev is magnitudes beyond Luke at this point, Crucible Luke is the only version of Luke that could have potentially surpassed Sidious

who could only manifest his full power through force storms

That is not at all a reason to knock Sheev, The reason he can only manifest himself through his storms is because he is no longer defined by his physical form, he is literally too powerful to be contained in a physical body he is a "Chaotic Nexus of dark energy that swell and burst open the fabric of space" even ROTJ Sidious would be above FOTJ Luke

Sheev's physical form was a tiny fraction of his full power and even then Luke only managed to defeat him with Leia's Battle Med which was "Unlocking Lukes potential" while also amped by the presence of Sheev's nexus and Byys, two of the strongest Dark Side Nexi ever!

Than TCW Sidious is > Nyax if we go by the "modern times" quotes.

Nope, the TCW quote would not apply to the future, this is not the quote that puts Palpatine above Krayt

everything here is present tense, Take the other quote for example (the one that does lock Palpatine above Krayt)


Everything in this Quote is past tense except that one line, its the combination of "Modern times" and the quote being past tense that indicates the meaning of this quote that Sidious is the most powerful practitioner of Sith ways spanning up to up to the Legacy Era, whereas "Modern Times" by its self like in the TCW quote doesn't span up to Legacy, the "Modern Times" in the TCW quote refers to TCW times as Modern, not Legacy.

It has actually since post-ROTS OT Vader has been compared to Dooku and Maul in power.

\
Yeah a couple of C-Canon sources, children's books and Author opinions that don't have authority over G-Canon whatsoever

Vader replicated Jinn's feat of fighting TPM Maul competitively, so no.

Yes in the biggest cheap shot ever that would have been suicide for anyone that was not a Cyborg, Jinn genuinely pressed Maul pretty hard to where Maul was struggling

And TPM Sidious and Plagueis>>TPM Maul.

Well yeh obviously, the quote is from the Jedi's perspective and the Jedi did not know of Sheev and Plagueis, only Maul, he was the only one that was "Back" unlike Sheev and plag who remained hidden, so the Quote doesn't include them

ROTJ sheev > FOTJ luke... goddamn son