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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Empty ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

March 30th 2020, 10:59 am
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Top_fi12

The Alliance Commander has been voted in as the #12 most powerful Star Wars character.

PLEASE READ: Even if a character has not ranked yet, they will have the opportunity to be raised to a higher position during the REVOTING after round 15. However, only characters that are ranked will be allowed to be revoted. Please continue to vote for characters, regardless if you think they should have been ranked already.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Palpatine
3. Valkorion
4. Irek Ismaren
5/6. Anakin Skywalker
5/6. Darth Krayt
7. Yoda
8. Darth Plagueis
9. Mace Windu
10. Revan
11. Darish Vol
12. Alliance Commander
13. Vaylin
14. Darth Caedus
15. Kueller

RULES

The metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.

For example, would Darth Malgus (as of the novel Deceived) need a greater boost in raw Force potency—which, for both the purposes of this tournament and within the lore, simply amplifies all abilities proportionate to their former levels—to defeat Yoda or UnuThul? Remember that this tournament aims to rank characters based on their overall combative threat level, NOT their raw Force potency. All characters will operate at their peak actualized iterations barring circumstantial or momentary amps. While everyone will fight in-character—meaning Yoda will not be bloodlusted—they will be aiming to kill Malgus as quickly and efficiently as possible with nothing held back.

If you have not already, please open the spoiler boxes to read the guidelines and banned characters for the tournament.

GUIDELINES

Spoiler:
A thread titled "Top Fifteen Tournament #1" will be created. Members can comment on who they believe Darth Malgus would need the greatest amp to defeat, e.g. Luke Skywalker. Members are welcome to debate other members to change votes. After six days, the votes will be tallied. Members will then choose between the two most voted upon characters. The winner will be ranked as #1 on our list, and "Top Fifteen Tournament #2" will be created now excluding the #1 pick.

BANNED CHARACTERS

Spoiler:
The following is a list of characters that will not be included in the tournament. This list may be added to.

  • The Father
  • The Son
  • The Daughter
  • Abeloth
  • Force Priestesses
  • Tilotny
  • Horliss-Horliss
  • Cold Danda Sine
  • Splendid Ap
  • Waru
  • Wutzek
  • Yuuzhan'tar
  • Sekot
  • Mnggal-Mnggal
  • Mother
  • Soa
  • World Razer
  • Sel-Makor
  • Darth Nihilus
  • Charal
  • Ewoks
  • Shimrra Jamaane
  • Onimi
  • UnuThul
  • Welk
  • Lomi Plo
  • Aing-Tii
  • Tsils
  • Sarasu Taalon

[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on June 17th 2020, 8:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

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March 30th 2020, 11:00 am
Outlander
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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March 30th 2020, 11:01 am
Caedus.


Last edited by UnquantifiableCharacter77 on April 5th 2020, 3:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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March 30th 2020, 11:02 am
Starkiller.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

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March 30th 2020, 11:03 am
Gethzerion
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

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March 30th 2020, 11:03 am
THE OUTLANDER. 
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

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March 30th 2020, 11:04 am
Dooku
TenebrousWay
TenebrousWay

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March 30th 2020, 11:05 am
Godlander
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

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March 30th 2020, 11:17 am
Vaylin or Outlander, I could be persuaded to go either way.
Gianfi
Gianfi

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

March 30th 2020, 11:26 am
Voting for the Outlander for now. But I’d like to read some arguments for the others
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

March 30th 2020, 11:34 am
Exar Kun.

A third major case for him will be made soon.

Case 1: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2782p25-top-fifteen-tournament-10-revan#52563

Case 2: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2863-top-fifteen-tournament-11-darish-vol#54065

Case 2.5: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2863p125-top-fifteen-tournament-11-darish-vol#54805

Beyond this, a preview for said case is that Gethzerion and Kueller are both inferior to Exar Kun. Exar Kun along with Sheev is among the greatest focal points or dark side nexuses that Luke ever faced as of 19ABY:

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Being a focal point/nexus is a defining measure of power with which Luke Skywalker deems a dark sider too powerful as opposed to the likes of Joruus C'boath, Gethzerion or even Kueller, none of whom achieved a state of becoming a nexus:

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

Vote Exar Kun.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

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March 30th 2020, 11:48 am
Outlander.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

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March 30th 2020, 11:49 am
Outlander
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

March 30th 2020, 11:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DarthAnt66 wrote:THE OUTLANDER. 
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

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March 30th 2020, 11:53 am
kueller
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
Level Four
Level Four

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March 30th 2020, 11:54 am
Darth Tenebrous
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

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March 30th 2020, 12:10 pm
A short case now will be an improvement from a prior round.

Lord Dramath was attacked by Tenebrae in his son's youth and stripped of his connection to the Force; I'm taking the Codex Entry as this is the only non-IU source that depicts events:

Lord Dramath Codex Entry wrote:Tenebrae, the future Sith Emperor and immortal ruler of Zakuul. That day, Tenebrae removed his father's connection to the Force and imprisoned him within a powerful holocron

Dramath's spirit is left to 'wither' into 'madness' over 1,300 years:

Lord Dramath Codex Entry wrote:Leaving Dramath alone to wither slowly into madness over an eternity.

Yet after this, Dramath is able to contend to a degree with Vaylin and Arcann alongside the Outlander and attack the spirit of Tenebrae, both dominating him momentarily and wounding him:



The Outlander confirms he's useful:

The Outlander, Knights of the Eternal Throne Ch.7 wrote:"Lana's right- We need every available weapon against Valkorion. Including you."

Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks any confirmed context. All extensive descriptions of what occurred come from in-universe tales millennia after the fact. If Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae. It's not overselling it to say that prime Tenebrae is many dozens of times more powerful at that point, thus it makes no sense that his child incarnation is easily stomping Dramath when his weakened spirit is capable of genuinely asserting domination over and wounding Tenebrae in his prime. I believe the key to this is the following codex entry:

Dramath's Holocron Codex Entry wrote:In his youth, Valkorion--then known as Tenebrae--discovered a way to twist and pervert the lattice so it could capture the spirit of powerful Force users, locking them in a metaphysical cage. He used the weapon on Dramath, his tyrannical father, and trapped him inside the holocron for centuries.

But the same corrupted technology Valkorion used to vanquish his father could also be turned against him

The above source outright says that Tenebrae used the holocron to trap Dramath but 'used' it on him to 'vanquish' him. We see it used for everything from empowering Force-users to breaking mental domination.

Lord Dramath is however very much the canonical inferior of Marka Ragnos as he is defeated during Ragnos' reign:

Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Meanwhile, on the far side of the galaxy, the Sith Empire has grown powerful through centuries of dark Force wielding and magic and the hundred-year rule of the greatest Dark Lord of the Sith, MARKA RAGNOS.

Tales of the Jedi wrote:Marka Ragnos ruled the galaxy with an iron fist. He was the Dark Lord of the Sith — the most powerful of the most powerful.

Tomb of Marka Ragnos Codex Entry wrote:Strength, power and strategy marked the rule of Marka Ragnos.

Exar Kun, quite possibly as early as his duel with Ulic Qel-Droma, inherited the power of Marka Ragnos. He is confirmed regardless to be the canonical superior of Marka Ragnos afterwards.

Simply put Lord Dramath in his prime, and to a much greater degree Ragnos and then Kun, are demonstratably threats to the spirit of prime Tenebrae due to the above.

The above case is yet to be countered in any meaningful manner.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on March 30th 2020, 1:09 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Quorian Debatist
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March 30th 2020, 12:21 pm
Exar Kun
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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March 30th 2020, 12:25 pm
@Jake wrote:Gethzerion

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Sheev_sig_3
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

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March 30th 2020, 12:27 pm
Voting for Dramath based on the above case.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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March 30th 2020, 12:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Exar Kun

Why not Malak

_________________
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander Sheev_sig_3
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

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March 30th 2020, 12:36 pm
Azronger wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Exar Kun

Why not Malak
is ur middle name chaos by any chance?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

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March 30th 2020, 12:38 pm
Azronger wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Exar Kun

Why not Malak

I'll answer you the same way I answered the previous round:

@LadyKulvax wrote:
[1].The quote you're using here is only applicable by depending on your sole interpretation. The Star Forge providing Malak with far greater powers and Malak himself having them are not one in the same. To 'provide' is to offer a supply or quantity of something to something else. It is not the same as literally having it. The Star Forge itself is far more powerful than anyone above. It can TP mindrape and destroy civilisations and no one is above it. Malak's amplification is simply not equating to this power.

[2].Regardless of whether you agree with it or not, the quote is not by itself absolute. It needs to be demonstratably proven by holding up to scrutiny against other sources. Malak's quote does not.

[3].KotOR's internal scaling places Ragnos and Nadd above Darth Nihilus in power who is a magnitude above Kreia and all of her peers due to Kreia's own admission which is supported by the script stating Nihilus was even further above them than that. All of which we know through canonically accurate estimations from Kreia through the Telos IV holocrons and the authorial support of Chris Avellone, as well as statements in KOTOR 2's strategy guide in further support.

Furthermore, later quotes make it clear that the quote is straight up conflicted by other quotes:

Mandalorian Scout & Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"Freedon Nadd was a dark Jedi, he conquered Onderon long ago and became their king. The royal line is directly descended from him. The stories say that he was far worse than Revan and Malak ever were. This place is tainted and the Sith presence here makes the danger great."

"The soldier is correct. The dark side is strong here... and it will grant its strength to the Sith."

In the above quote, the Mandalorian is explaining who the tomb is for and why its taint is dangerous to them. Kreia agrees with this clearly, feels his 'legacy lives on in the very stones of his resting place' so is even more aware of his power. And rather infamously, whenever someone says something she disagrees with, be it the player or an NPC, she goes out of the way to say they're wrong.

I also can't see how this could be claiming Nadd is a worse ruler or tyrant. Nadd was a dick to the people of Onderon. Malak bombarded Taris and Telos IV into slag and bombed Dantooine to boot. Along with other planets I may be unaware of. I'd wager that's being worse than Nadd in terms of cruelty and slaughter.

Then there's the following quote:

Dantooine, Worlds, Knights of the Old Republic, Games, LucasArts website wrote:The most notable feature of Dantooine is the Jedi academy, originally founded by Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. For generations now it has served to train promising Jedi Padawans, with several dozen students in attendance at any given time. The most infamous graduate, however, is that of Exar Kun, trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas himself. Exar Kun was a Jedi Apprentice that turned away from the light side to embrace the seductive power of ancient Sith magic. Forty years ago he began a war upon the Republic that had grave consequences, but through great effort and sacrifice on the part of the Jedi he was defeated. The legacy of his taint is slowly passing away in the wake of the Mandalorian Wars and the coming of a new Sith threat.

Exar Kun is the most infamous graduate of the Dantooine academy due to the powers he gained through Sith magic and the war he started after it.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

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March 30th 2020, 12:47 pm
Kueller gets my vote. A case will be provided very soon
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

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March 30th 2020, 12:49 pm
I vote Leia
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