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AA3
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander

April 8th 2020, 11:45 am
@Decaf_Beverages

I really hope this isn't all thats backing up the scaling in this scenario. Vitiate was INFAMOUS for his corrupting influence and Scourge had been around Vitiate for hundreds of years.

1. Vitiate being infamous for his TP abilities doesn't detract from the comparison. The fact is Vitiate's infamous TP abilities are likewise present in the novel, and Revan is fully aware of them having fallen victim to them before, yet he still believes Scourge can contribute positively to the fight, whereas in Act 3 Scourge knows - despite being vastly more powerful - that he cannot provide any assistance to the Hero.

2. You're going to need to explain how Scourge spending hundreds of years around Vitiate makes him more susceptible to his Telepathy, and so much so that it can make up for Scourge's own growth between the Novel and the Jedi Knight storyline.

Furthermore, Vitiate virtually re-made Scourge with his own power

This is the same as the above. Why does Vitiate granting Scourge immortality inherently make him easier for Vitiate to telepathically dominate to such a degree it makes up for Scourge's own growth?
TenebrousWay
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April 8th 2020, 11:50 am
Kun became outdated after SWTOR come out. Most of the top tiers of Vitiate empire can give him a run to his money, even in the base game.
Nute_Chethray
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April 8th 2020, 12:22 pm
@TenebrousWay wrote:Kun became outdated after SWTOR come out. Most of the top tiers of Vitiate empire can give him a run to his money, even in the base game.
Which sith in SWTOR can freeze thousands of people (at least) while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

And which sith in SWTOR would be compared to DE Sidious in power?
Decaf_Beverages
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April 8th 2020, 12:25 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@Decaf_Beverages

I really hope this isn't all thats backing up the scaling in this scenario. Vitiate was INFAMOUS for his corrupting influence and Scourge had been around Vitiate for hundreds of years.

1. Vitiate being infamous for his TP abilities doesn't detract from the comparison. The fact is Vitiate's infamous TP abilities are likewise present in the novel, and Revan is fully aware of them having fallen victim to them before, yet he still believes Scourge can contribute positively to the fight, whereas in Act 3 Scourge knows - despite being vastly more powerful - that he cannot provide any assistance to the Hero.

2. You're going to need to explain how Scourge spending hundreds of years around Vitiate makes him more susceptible to his Telepathy, and so much so that it can make up for Scourge's own growth between the Novel and the Jedi Knight storyline.

Furthermore, Vitiate virtually re-made Scourge with his own power

This is the same as the above. Why does Vitiate granting Scourge immortality inherently make him easier for Vitiate to telepathically dominate to such a degree it makes up for Scourge's own growth?

Do I really need to? Is it honestly that hard to understand


The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen. His corrupting influence is so complete that none can stand in his presence without succumbing to fear, anger and hatred. The Emperor can wither and ruin even the strongest Jedi’s connection to the light side


The Emperor very clearly has a passive corrupting influence, capable of even withering and destroying individual force users connection to the light side. Scourge being not merely being in the regular presence of the Emperor and having likely been TP'ed by the Emperor dozens of times over hundreds of years, but also being reformed and reshaped by the Emperor's power on a fundamental level. The Emperor is likely intimately familiar with Scourge's mind which again has likely been affected quite strongly by the Emperor's influence

If you can't see that there is a difference there, I dont know what to tell you. Additionally, Scourge may have been acting partially upon his vision, which saw a single Jedi defeating the Emperor, the Hero of Tython.
NevesYtneves
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April 8th 2020, 4:29 pm
Switching to Outlander.
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Quorian Debatist
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April 8th 2020, 5:34 pm
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@Nute_Chethray wrote:I have some issues with the post from Quarian Debatist, and while I won't send some amazing counter I'd still like to see you respond to them, so everyone can make proper judgements with proper facts:

You start your post with two LadyKulvax quotes, one about Outlander scaling chains and one about a tier list, but they just seem odd to use for a number of reasons:

Outlander scaling chains: 
-Context. This chain was to show why Outlander beats Savage and Maul, neither of which have even been mentioned for this tournament. So while the chains are too much for that duo, they can easily be considered "lesser" for someone in the running for #12 place. 

The chain was to show why Outlander beats Maul and Savage - Maul destroyed an entire Academy at 15, far surpassing Tott's feat - by scaling him near or above various incarnations of Vitiate and Revan who have both been ranked here already. By using feats like draining 100s of Jedi Masters at the same time being extremely low in his chain. By using destroying fleets and Solar System sized Dark Side nexuses as the bottom of the chain. By using Dark Temple destruction as a lower end feat even though you would find him arguing it was durable enough to survive massive dark side energies in another time.

And it was used because he is the guy who can be credited to these chains, who now wants to ignore them because he's well aware of the implications.

There is a point in showing it, and not only is it to show how he thinks the feats relate but how he wanted to ignore these scaling chains so he could compare Tott to Outlander. Though it does seem peculiar that most of those feats are seemingly above Kun though doesn't it?



@Nute_Chethray wrote:-Age. The scaling chains were written over a year ago, and like most arguments and beliefs could likely be outdated. 

Tier list: 
- Again age. Its half a year old and likely to be outdated. 

Digging out old statements made by community users seem irrelevant to current debates, and just makes it look like you lack actual arguments to make. 

Anyone who's familiar with AP has seen this done for years. Hell, right now his big thing is scaling Adas holocron above Jinn and Exiles above Krayt. The entirety of his arguments is based on scaling and feats where he can stick them in. So for him to ignore scaling to try and "loosely" compare Tott - who he puts at an extremely low level - to Outlander - who he puts at an extremely high level - is absurd. Had Kun already ranked a long time ago, I've no doubts that AP would be in here arguing absorb chains in favor of Outlander.

And while newer debaters might change their mind with the switching of the wind (like putting Outlander above Kun a week ago and then voting for Kun today for example ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 2960029119 ), AP is a little more locked in his beliefs. He's very seasoned and even if he switches some things around, he still believes that TOR >>>> PT.
Should we ignore everything he says so he can act hypocritically in this thread? If he is currently arguing in every thread that the Exiles > Krayt > ROTS Kenobi is that something I should just set aside because he said he doesn't want to worry about the scaling now... scaling he adheres to every thread?

Within the last 2 weeks even (Yoda and Mace have already ranked here well before these posts):

@LadyKulvax wrote:Outlander and Vaylin. Superior feats and scaling (to Dooku and Mace).
@LadyKulvax wrote:How is Yoda beyond Revan, nevermind Vaylin and Outlander?

Every argument AP made from that post was addressed, that was just an addendum to show what AP actually believes. My post didn't rely on his old statements at all, it was just fun to throw in. But yes, I made no arguments and the couple sentences I wrote about AP's old words were all I did.

A little bit of consistency isn't too much to ask.


But all that is beside the point. What actually changed? And I don't mean changing the mind - even though newer content would only reinforce that scaling, not challenge it - but was the evidence he provided in those scales wrong for you? By all means, anything he wrote would put anyone in that chain far beyond Tott Doneeta, so why is that not relevant to bring up? Outlander scales from people with multiple solar system and galactic level feats, and is far beyond the Masters who are far beyond Tott. Outlander scaling from Vitiate in any way puts him impossibly beyond any comparisons to Tott.

Just because you don't agree with bringing it up doesn't mean we ignore the entirety of his words. Had someone been swayed by AP, yet challenged him on the topic, and used the exact same chain against Tott, would that carry more weight than AP himself saying it?

It might be old, but does he personally think it's wrong now, and why? That is the question. Handwaving it away doesn't erase what he said. He needs to address it. He needs to explain why he thinks he can bypass scaling he largely created to try and make Tott relevant against people who fodder Jedi Masters so many chains ago.



@Nute_Chethray wrote:
Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:Is Tott even equal to a guy who can dominate 100s of Masters? 

Maybe, maybe not, but Tott is massively bellow Kun anyways. And you made no attempt of showing otherwise. 

Why would I need to show Tott is anywhere near Kun? Tott is worthless in this thread and his feat that has been used in this exact capacity by AP for well over half a decade has been massively misinterpreted. It's even the exact same cropping from when ILS used to use it on CV with the same methodology from I believe 2012. And it's not even of a "real" heat storm either.

If Tott is dwarfed by a guy far down AP's scale list, then he isn't comparable to Outlander. It's not a tough concept to grasp. At which point in my post did you think I was comparing Tott favorable to anyone in this thread? AP used Tott to undermine Outlander's feat, so if Tott isn't comparable then his entire post is worthless because he lost any comparison he tried to do. He grows past people completely unrelated to Outlander.

He used a largely irrelevant and incomparable example that's not even impressive in the first place to try and make Tott jump past Meetra, Revan, Malak, Malgus, Traya, etc. All people with feats that vastly outstrip many Masters, and some while Tott was in the Jedi Order. He doesn't believe it in the first place, and he didn't even try and explain why he thought he could do this, but he did it. Not every "storm" is the same.

You can't beat down Tott's placement in the pecking order, and then try and raise him up just because he survived a storm that can kill humans. That wasn't what Arcann's feat is entirely rooted in. It's one unique feat by a middling Jedi that's not done in combat. Whereas Outlander scales above Traya who scales above people that sat on the Council immediately following The Great Sith War while Tott never became anything special.

Speaking of Exiles scaling, Greypa in a weakened state was able to raze a town with lightning. Greypa with the Starmap was below Malak with the Starforge. Malak was below Revan, and Revan was below Revan Reborn. Cue KoB's revolutionary new scaling to put Arcann above Revan Reborn, and Vitiate. These are all substantial gaps too. Revan Reborn was far above Nyriss who was at absolute worst - for no reason - comparable to Meetra who was above Traya who in a weakened state could casually destroy 4 Masters who sat on the Council while Tott did nothing.

Do we really need these things spelled out to put Tott below people when we sit on the sidelines and allow AP to do the same?


@Nute_Chethray wrote:
Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:Hell, you wanked Nomi - who became the Grand Master - in comparison to Vivicarian feats. 

Again, thats from a year-old post. Maybe refer to his relevant posts instead? 

Except he still uses Vivicar up to one month ago:

BoD wrote:Bonus: Kit Fisto (ROTS), Saesee Tiin (ROTS), Plo Koon (ROTS) & Sora Bulq (AOTC) vs Revan Reborn, Meetra Surik (Revan) & Barsen'Thor (end of Act 1).
@LadyKulvax wrote:
Bonus: Most lop-sided fight here, honestly. The B-team is just beneath all three of their contenders, Bulq's not really saved by Dooku scaling either. Barsen'thor scales from Vivicar who dwarfs anyone on the other team. Meetra is her prime is more powerful than Traya and that's all I need to say there. Revan is Revan. TOR strongly.

And Outlander still scales above that... hell he says it there.

In case it needs to be said, Tott is buried in scaling so far that all it would accomplish is what AP is trying to do here; give the Tott feat to people above Tott. If Tott's feat is not comparable to Arcann's, then why is he being used as an impressive source to scale Kun above Outlander? Considering both scale massively above Tott through various methods, it's like trying to decide who wins a fight by beating a baby the easiest. If he loses TOTT COMPARISONS, then he loses all comparisons he used to Outlander, therefore making it impossible to assume just a bunch of growth beats Outlander leapfrogging people who ragdolled him.

That is my point.

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:But the reason I didn't go too in-depth here is that one of our finer members has already explained it much better than I am able to.
Featuring @xolthol
You use the argument of Xolthol to show why the Outlander deserves spot #12. Yet she also made arguments for why Vaylin >>> Outlander, so should we actually restart this round and vote for Vaylin instead? 

Further you never actually debunked LadyKulvax's point. He only claimed that Arcann didn't meet the full power of the lightning. Claiming that LadyKulvax thinks "it lost all its potency" exaggerates his stance in what I assume is a bad attempt to ridicule his statements, or to try and make people extra critical of the rest of Ladykulvax's posts. 

 Xolthol explained why the energy that Arcann faced was stronger than the one that destroyed the ships. Yet Xolthol's post still admits that Arcann doesn't face all of it. You admit to the same. That is LadyKulvax's point, and in my opinion you just showed why its true. 

Very good question, we should ask Ant to restart the round and vote for Vaylin. We should restart the whole tourney as well because AP would rank half of TOR above well, most of this list. If Xolthol is correct, that just shows there's a problem in the voting system. While you speak of being extra critical to AP's posts, maybe don't float a "gotcha" like that my way.

And "lost all its potency" isn't inaccurate considering AP is arguing that a guy who was super amped who was above Act III Vitiate in his base state had a feat comparable to Tott Doneeta - who scales impossibly below any Vitiate. What am I supposed to glean from this if not to assume like none of it was hitting Arcann? Is that too critical for your liking to assume it being well within Tott's capabilities would be to assume it's basically none of the potency? This is the main part and the reason why it's important to point out that the actual lightning blast didn't lose potency. Big context.

I directly addressed it actually. Myself. Reread it. The aura is a byproduct of his power, whereas the lightning is his focused and channeled power. The aura doesn't take away from the lightning still being focused on Arcann, it's just a passive effect due to the power he recently received. Basically when he is actually channeling his power in one direction, then it would be the same power he's capable of with or without the aura, albeit with a little less damage to his own body. So when Arcann is shielding against this power he is shielding against a severely amped Outlander. When Outlander later gets to a state on his own where he can beat Arcann, it puts what Arcann can do in perspective. I've used other hypotheticals to explain It, but I don't believe the actual lightning hitting Arcann would be any different than lightning hitting Arcann without the aura. What the aura shows is that Outlander can't properly contain all this power so it leaks out in an effort to save him from himself. That could lead us to assume it wasn't the entirety of Vitiate's power, but it was still a severely amped Outlander's body, and he was still capable of focusing extra power into his blasts that eclipsed his aura in might.

While mine and Xolthol's take on the aura slightly differ, the end result is the same. The difference is she tried to factor in the entire aura, while I don't care about it. It's not relevant to what was directed at Arcann. Even so, Arcann still was almost at the epicenter of that too, so anything that's getting directed at him is going to eclipse what went into the sky. Especially since he is taking the bulk of Valklander's focus.

I'm not saying the entire aura encompasses him, just that he had to take the brunt of it and it doesn't take away from Outlander focusing huge blasts in one area. The feat is still Outlander later becoming stronger than Arcann who can defend a severely amped Valklander; the feat is still the two Force users facing off. The collateral damage is just Arcann staving off the strongest concentration of that energy.

It's like assuming Sheev didn't take as much energy as Starkiller could exert against him just because it was an omniblast. Yes, energy is being loosened all around, but Sheev is still taking as much energy as Starkiller can possibly unleash on him.

Outlander >/~ Valklander >/~ Arcann >> Outlander > HoT > the gay scaling chains. The aura is just an added bonus, but not the main feat in the equation. Even if an unquantified amount of energy is released, the powerup was still enough of a boon to his power to overwhelm Arcann eventually when Arcann was quite a ways above Outlander. If you want to focus on the totality of power there, then the majority of it was directed at Arcann at the end of the day, and the lightning required active exertions as opposed to the passive effects which should put it way beyond the radiation anyway.

Basically,  why would AP use this as something Tott could accomplish?  HoT beat the shit out of a lesser Vitiate who was so far beyond anything in TOR up to that time as AP's scaling chain shows. He still has to put what Arcann tanked above Outlander who was beyond HoT. Like I mean...

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 1076326320

@Nute_Chethray wrote:
Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:He didn't win no, but he did alright considering he should have been one shotted with all the unquantified growth you're parading around.
Decaf already explained how Kun performed one of the greatest TP feats in all of SW while dueling Vodo. And still it was a pretty one-sided fight for Kun, Vodo never was close to an advantage. 

There are some other parts I'm curious about but I'm kind of busy so this is it for now. Looking forward for your respone ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 1289255181

You might notice how short Decaf's section on this was? Its because Decaf was and is well aware that it was a hypnosis spell he unleashed before walking in. Hypnosis is key to point out because that wouldn't require an active exertion of mental fortitude against their minds to keep up. We see this today for example in every carnival where they aren't fighting huge tp battles to keep the victims under hypnosis. The difficulty was in casting the spell, not maintaining it. If he had to constantly fight them to keep them hypnotized, then what's the point in the first place?

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Also, fun to point out is that the spell didn't work against any of the Force users in the vicinity. So you can't exactly scale it up against Force-sensitives based on that. Thousands of minds are beaten by one Sylvar2467?



What is this going to do to Malgus?

Why should this place Kun above Outlander when we know Outlander gets beyond the Malgus we're using here? Cyclones, heat storms, and hypnotism isn't going to allow him to beat Malgus easier than we know Outlander can beat this incarnation.
Nute_Chethray
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April 8th 2020, 5:54 pm
Glad you cleared things up ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 1289255181

Though there are still some things I disagree with (which I'll address later as its roughly midnight here)

One thing I can ask now though is: 

Quarian Debatist wrote wrote:(like putting Outlander above Kun a week ago and then voting for Kun today for example ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 2960029119 )

Changing my mind over a weeks amounts of time with roughly 7 major posts arguing the matter doesn't really seem like a negative thing. If noone is willing to change their mind over these arguments what would be the point for you to make them
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April 8th 2020, 5:56 pm
I don't think any major Kun post recently would definitely raise question of where Outlander stands in comparison, but fair enough. I think that's a tough hill to climb with the stupidity of TOR writing myself.

@Nute_Chethray wrote:while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

And which sith in SWTOR would be compared to DE Sidious in power?

When did these things happen?

If you're speaking of Vodo then do you believe Yoda would be outdueled by a Padawan Kun too? Do you believe Padawan Kun rivals ROTS Sheev in dueling capabilities?

When was Kun compared to DE Sheev in sheer power, and how long did that stick?
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April 8th 2020, 6:05 pm
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@Nute_Chethray wrote:while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

And which sith in SWTOR would be compared to DE Sidious in power?

When did these things happen?

If you're speaking of Vodo then do you believe Yoda would be outdueled by a Padawan Kun too? Do you believe Padawan Kun rivals ROTS Sheev in dueling capabilities?

When was Kun compared to DE Sheev in sheer power, and how long did that stick?

Vodo/Urr are considered the Mace/Yoda of the era per the power of the jedi sourcebook. That does not mean that they're their perfect equals, else I'd have voted for them to place after Yoda. 

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 47033710

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Note that I don't think Kun = Sidious (that'd be silly). But the comparison is still there
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April 8th 2020, 6:21 pm
Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Note that I don't think Kun = Sidious (that'd be silly). But the comparison is still there

That's Luke talking about them as being the strongest dark side forces he's ever faced. I don't see how it can be construed as anything other than him noting "both Palpatine and Kun are extremely powerful". There's no direct comparison.
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April 8th 2020, 7:25 pm
@Decaf_Beverages

The Emperor very clearly has a passive corrupting influence, capable of even withering and destroying individual force users connection to the light side.

I'm well aware.

Scourge being not merely being in the regular presence of the Emperor and having likely been TP'ed by the Emperor dozens of times over hundreds of years, but also being reformed and reshaped by the Emperor's power on a fundamental level.

There's no reason for The Emperor to have TP'd Scourge many times already over the years - you've stated it's "likely", but provided no rationale as to why. I'm going to need something more concrete.

As for him being "reformed and reshaped", you once again have failed to provide any rationale for why Vitiate making Scourge immortal with a ritual makes him more able to TP Scourge.

The Emperor is likely intimately familiar with Scourge's mind which again has likely been affected quite strongly by the Emperor's influence

"Intimately familiar" with Scourge's mind, so much so that he failed to divulge Scourge's true intentions across 3 centuries? You're acting like Scourge just let himself become a puppet, and gave Vitiate all the tools he needed to basically one-shot him. Revan taught Scourge how to shield his mind against Vitiate in the novel - he taught him Vitiate's tricks and tactics - and Scourge presumably did shield his mind, not giving The Emperor any means to control him, knowing one day he'd turn against him. Still, despite this, Vitiate eventually became too strong for him to directly resist, even though Scourge grew massively in power himself.

If you can't see that there is a difference there, I dont know what to tell you.

What you're proposing is unrealistic - Scourge isn't an idiot who would give Vitiate a way to control him.

Additionally, Scourge may have been acting partially upon his vision, which saw a single Jedi defeating the Emperor, the Hero of Tython.

Elaborate as to the relevance.
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April 8th 2020, 7:41 pm
NotAA3 wrote:@Decaf_Beverages

The Emperor very clearly has a passive corrupting influence, capable of even withering and destroying individual force users connection to the light side.

I'm well aware.

Scourge being not merely being in the regular presence of the Emperor and having likely been TP'ed by the Emperor dozens of times over hundreds of years, but also being reformed and reshaped by the Emperor's power on a fundamental level.

There's no reason for The Emperor to have TP'd Scourge many times already over the years - you've stated it's "likely", but provided no rationale as to why. I'm going to need something more concrete.

As for him being "reformed and reshaped", you once again have failed to provide any rationale for why Vitiate making Scourge immortal with a ritual makes him more able to TP Scourge.

The Emperor is likely intimately familiar with Scourge's mind which again has likely been affected quite strongly by the Emperor's influence

"Intimately familiar" with Scourge's mind, so much so that he failed to divulge Scourge's true intentions across 3 centuries? You're acting like Scourge just let himself become a puppet, and gave Vitiate all the tools he needed to basically one-shot him. Revan taught Scourge how to shield his mind against Vitiate in the novel - he taught him Vitiate's tricks and tactics - and Scourge presumably did shield his mind, not giving The Emperor any means to control him, knowing one day he'd turn against him. Still, despite this, Vitiate eventually became too strong for him to directly resist, even though Scourge grew massively in power himself.

If you can't see that there is a difference there, I dont know what to tell you.

What you're proposing is unrealistic - Scourge isn't an idiot who would give Vitiate a way to control him.

Additionally, Scourge may have been acting partially upon his vision, which saw a single Jedi defeating the Emperor, the Hero of Tython.

Elaborate as to the relevance.

Ive had a discussion off site in relation to the nature of the Jedi Knight campaign. Ive never played it and had to rely on sources, so I will admit I was wrong

As for this


You might notice how short Decaf's section on this was? Its because Decaf was and is well aware that it was a hypnosis spell he unleashed before walking in. Hypnosis is key to point out because that wouldn't require an active exertion of mental fortitude against their minds to keep up.

This is blatant misinformation as to how Kun's abilities have been shown to work.

You are right in that I don't tend to distinguish between Kun's feats of illusion/hypnosis and his feats of telepathy. The end results are typically the same and the line between them and sorcery is very murky and non sorcerers are capable of producing similar abilities, however every instance we have been shown in relation to Kun's mind controlling abilities is that they do require power to actively maintain. Here is a very convenient example from the novel I, Jedi.

Frustration rippled through me, but I shoved it away. Those creatures are not rny problem right now. Exar Kun is. Stretching out my senses, I discovered slender ebon threads of influence, three of them, linked to the creatures the Dark Lord had sent to kill Luke Skywalker. The creatures were mindless beasts, far easier to control than Streen, affording Kun maximum destruction with a minimal amount of energy expended.

Because none of your sources actually claim that Kun was not expending energy to use his sorcerous influence, only that he indeed was using sorcery when indeed the opposite has evidence for it, you have not disproved any singular part of my point. And note how I only ever stated that the power to maintain such an ability was seemingly effortless for him, even during a duel with one of the greatest masters of the era. I never claimed or even intended to claim that Kun was actively mentally engaged with all ten thousand plus senators


Last edited by Decaf_Beverages on April 8th 2020, 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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April 8th 2020, 7:54 pm
@Nute_Chethray wrote:
@Quorian Debatist wrote:
@Nute_Chethray wrote:while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

And which sith in SWTOR would be compared to DE Sidious in power?

When did these things happen?

If you're speaking of Vodo then do you believe Yoda would be outdueled by a Padawan Kun too? Do you believe Padawan Kun rivals ROTS Sheev in dueling capabilities?

When was Kun compared to DE Sheev in sheer power, and how long did that stick?

Vodo/Urr are considered the Mace/Yoda of the era per the power of the jedi sourcebook. That does not mean that they're their perfect equals, else I'd have voted for them to place after Yoda. 

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Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Note that I don't think Kun = Sidious (that'd be silly). But the comparison is still there

Why would it be silly to think Kun = DSheev but not that Vodo is on par with Yoda and Mace... which is a sizable gap but I digress.

First quote only speaks of their reputations within the Order. There's nothing inherently wrong with the quote itself, it's that you're taking standing in the order as a sign of power between eras. Respecting a powerful master of one time does not mean all respected champions of the Order are on the same tier, it just means they rose through the ranks in their own timeline. It's using examples to show the higher tiers within the Orders at the time.

To extend that train of thought further, we'd have to put someone like Satele Shan in this same list. Someone who accomplished Grand Master status due to her respect and power. Are we ready to have fodder characters in TOR to be comparable to Yoda? That doesn't exactly hurt Outlander.

Next we can go back and look at feats compared to Kun when both are in their primes I guess. Vodo loses to Padawan and Sith Lord Kun with not much difference between them. Gets "one shotted" by Nadd as well, although not sure if you follow this sentiment...?
Odan-Urr straight up gets one shotted by early war Kun.

What this implies is that early war Kun should be capable of obliterating ROTS Sheev based on a quote that doesn't directly compare Yoda to Vodo. ROTS Sheev whose own quotes put him as the most powerful Sith of all time mind you in a much more direct light. Should we go in circles over such a vague quote?

It seems very much a case of Bruce Lee-ism. He built his legend in a lesser Order due to his power, so he's respected. But that doesn't mean he's in any way comparable to the top martial artists of today, though he would garner the same respect - more even. The quote is telling us the top of the Order, not that all tops are equal. Otherwise you end up with some very questionable scaling and can extend this sentiment to other eras as well. Except Bane's era. That era lol

Even if it were raw power, you've seen yourself that put in the same sentence can still lead to a sizable gap in power. Mace Windu and Yoda for example. At the time of that books release Mace didn't even have Vapaad, yet was compared to Yoda who is still a large degree over amped Vapaad!Mace in ROTS. Jedi Masters ragdolling each other, the best in the Order being garbage, everyone doing better against Kun than Yodan-Urr, etc. Being mentioned in the same paragraph with no explicit comparisons between the two eras in sheer might doesn't make for a compelling power equalizer. I would hope Yoda actually being portrayed incredibly well - and equal in power to Sheev while both are repeatedly praised for being the GOATs - would keep him from being compared to a guy who loses to Padawans as well.

---

Two of the greatest not the two greatest. The distinction is key because it's not even calling them the greatest, just "two of" which indicates more. Nor is it comparing them to one another either. There could be a large gap between the two and you would never know it from that quote. If two of your greatest evils are DE Sheev level and ROTS Sheev level then both would still be incredible examples of raw might, though not necessarily close.

The context of the quote is also Luke thinking purely about his own power and then realizing what that may lead to. He's thinking back to two people entirely focused on power and what happened to him and what they wanted him to do. This shocks him out of thinking he should just rip ships out of the sky.

It's also not exactly false either. One man ran Luke's timeline right into the ground and turned Luke and his father, and one man was turning all of Luke's students and was responsible for Kyp blowing up star systems in Luke's time as well as comatosing Luke.

If Luke falls prey to relying on pure power then he sees that as a win for these two evil men who tried to cause his fall. While they might be long dead, he is doing what they wanted and Luke realizes that. He realizes or rather thinks that they're winning, and these two massive temptresses in his life are the first he thinks of when falling to the Darkside due to them being responsible for the most horrific actions caused to him. The Darkside isn't just power, it's the evil in the act itself. It's the test it puts you through to challenge you and rise up and overcome or fall and "bern 4evr in ur hert Anakin." And two people who screwed with Luke for long periods of time would fall under that cornered niche, power aside.

Then you compare the actual acts seen by Luke. One guy makes cyclones and one guy wrecks up cities and eats ships. Luke only ever sensed Kun in a weakened state as well when he was sub-Luke level. It wasn't Kun's sheer raw might that was the problem, it was how to fight a disincorporated spirit that keeps grooming kids like a regular Decaf_Wizard. While it's not unlikely it's referring to raw power, the quote seems to be speaking about the concept of the Darkside itself and what this means for Luke if he keeps abusing his power. The evil wins.

---

And I think it more silly to ignore them being the same tier when you're using it specifically to compare the two. By all means you think this quote is a comparison of power, so why is it silly to put them as equal? Kun was either compared to Sheev in raw power or he wasn't. Is it that the quote itself is too vague or is it that other circumstances outside the quote prevent it? If you're not putting stock in this quote then I fail to see the importance of it. Allowing us to shift Kun anywhere we want below Sheev can wind up anywhere on the scale. Conveniently.
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April 8th 2020, 8:36 pm
@Decaf_Beverages wrote:
You might notice how short Decaf's section on this was? Its because Decaf was and is well aware that it was a hypnosis spell he unleashed before walking in. Hypnosis is key to point out because that wouldn't require an active exertion of mental fortitude against their minds to keep up.

This is blatant misinformation as to how Kun's abilities have been shown to work.

You are right in that I don't tend to distinguish between Kun's feats of illusion/hypnosis and his feats of telepathy. The end results are typically the same and the line between them and sorcery is very murky and non sorcerers are capable of producing similar abilities, however every instance we have been shown in relation to Kun's mind controlling abilities is that they do require power to actively maintain. Here is a very convenient example from the novel I, Jedi.

Frustration rippled through me, but I shoved it away. Those creatures are not rny problem right now. Exar Kun is. Stretching out my senses, I discovered slender ebon threads of influence, three of them, linked to the creatures the Dark Lord had sent to kill Luke Skywalker. The creatures were mindless beasts, far easier to control than Streen, affording Kun maximum destruction with a minimal amount of energy expended.

Because none of your sources actually claim that Kun was not expending energy to use his sorcerous influence, only that he indeed was using sorcery when indeed the opposite has evidence for it, you have not disproved any singular part of my point.

Controlling beings directly and putting them in a hypnotic stupor are two separate things, Mr Caf. Why would he need constant exertion to keep already hypnotized beings hypnotized exactly? Being hypnotized doesn't require you to constantly exert your influence over them. The real challenge is getting them in that state in the first place. He's not maintaining a spell to swing a stopwatch the entire time over their eyes as he already has them under his sway. I'm not sure why we'd divorce how hypnotism has worked in every fiction I can think of and real-life just because Kun also has telepathy? He can use multiple powers, no one ever questioned that.

None of your sources claim he did need constant exertion. However, we have it as a pre-conceived spell and we have it being hypnotism. And we have him specifically activating his amulet to control the president, yet he required no activation the entire time the crowd was frozen. It seems pretty clear cut.

@Decaf_Beverages wrote: And note how I only ever stated that the power to maintain such an ability was seemingly effortless for him, even during a duel with one of the greatest masters of the era. I never claimed or even intended to claim that Kun was actively mentally engaged with all ten thousand plus senators

Is this helpful for you? Him seeming not to require any effort and disassociating him from actively engaging everyone at the same time? So basically it didn't require constant attention and at best it required very little effort in the first place? What was keeping them under exactly if he didn't have to mentally engage everyone, and what required any exertion?

Is it possible that you don't have to constantly remind everyone to stay hypnotized? Is it possible that admitting that Kun didn't need much effort downplays the expressiveness of it being the greatest "mental feat of all time?" Is Kun doing such a fantastic feat easy supposed to convince me that it was entirely tp? Although admitting that it required at best minimal effort doesn't exactly take away from Vodo standing up to him.

"Here we have the greatest mental feat ever in Star Wars accomplished while he fights the Yoda of his era. The only reason Voda stood up to him was that he was splitting his exertion between the senate... but get this ladies and pre-pubescent boys, he wasn't even expending much effort to control them either while fighting Yodo. Also, it was a big hypnosis spell."

You wind up diminishing your own footnote with this face-saving tactic. He wasn't even really trying to control them, no effort, didn't have to engage them, etc. You can accuse me of strawman all you like, but that doesn't help you trying to tear your own argument down. What was he even doing lol?

And it still didn't work against the Jedi at the end of the day. How does anything you wrote help him against Malgus? He hypnotizes a crowd so he can exert minimal effort against Malgus? He mindrapes padawans with zero mental defenses before they can defend themselves? He's better than Mara who is a self-admitted failure in TP while she's at some of her lowest levels ever?

I don't get how any of this helps bro.
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April 8th 2020, 8:40 pm
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Which sith in SWTOR can freeze thousands of people (at least) while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

Vodo/Urr are considered the Mace/Yoda of the era per the power of the jedi sourcebook. That does not mean that they're their perfect equals, else I'd have voted for them to place after Yoda. 

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 47033710



Umm... I just want to add that this is very clearly just saying that both Mace and Yoda, as well as Vodo and Odan, had more authority than the rest of the Jedi Masters during their respective era (RotE era for the former duo, and TOR era for the latter duo). That's it. That's all it is saying. It's referencing their role in the Jedi Order, not anything to do with their power or skill. Vodo and Odan during their era, similarly to Mace and Yoda, had more authority than the other Jedi Masters. There is nothing in this quote that even suggests that Odan or Vodo have even the tiniest fraction of Yoda and/or Mace's power or skill. Picture this, there is a quote that, reminiscent to the quote above about Vodo and Odan, states: "The rank of Jedi Grandmaster is given to the Jedi that holds the most authority out of all the other Jedi. Jedi Grandmaster Satele Shan is one example in the Old Republic era, as is Jedi Grandmaster Luke Skywalker in the New Jedi Order." Does this quote mean that Satele has even 5% of Luke's power or skill? No, not at all, it just means that Luke and Satele both had similar roles in their Jedi order, just like the quote you posted above doesn't prove that Odan or Vodo are anywhere even remotely close to Yoda and Mace in power or skill at all, just that they had similar roles. So I have no clue why you are trying to make it seem like this big deal that he was "dueling the Yoda/Mace of the era" when in reality he was merely just dueling one of the two Jedi who had the most authority during this time frame. 

And which sith in SWTOR would be compared to DE Sidious in power?
Specter of the Past wrote: There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.
Note that I don't think Kun = Sidious (that'd be silly). But the comparison is still there
Once again, you are misinterpreting that quote. He said that Sidious and Kun are "two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he'd ever face." Umm...that does not mean that Kun's power is being compared to DE Sidious' power. It's literally just saying that they are two of the most important Dark Siders that Luke had ever faced. And let's just say that it is referring to force power, literally all it would be saying is that Kun and Sidious are "two OF" the most powerful Dark Siders he had ever faced. It's not saying that they are the two most powerful dark siders he had faced, just that they are among some of the most powerful darksiders, let alone that he is saying that the 2 are comparable lol. This is the equivalent of some character saying "Mace and Kit Fisto are two of the most powerful Jedi I had faced in the Clone Wars." It's not saying that Mace and Fisto are more powerful than every other Jedi and it's also not even comparing Fisto and Mace's power, it's just saying that Mace and Fisto were among some of the most powerful Jedi of The Clone Wars Era. (Which is true)

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April 8th 2020, 8:47 pm
Nice didn't even realize that Bran made a much better and more detailed response to everything I responded to. Good waste of time
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April 8th 2020, 9:33 pm
None of your sources claim he did need constant exertion. However, we have it as a pre-conceived spell and we have it being hypnotism. And we have him specifically activating his amulet to control the president, yet he required no activation the entire time the crowd was frozen. It seems pretty clear cut.

Sorry, are you trying to claim that Kun requires his amulet to use his mental spells here? Because Kun not being able to use his spells without his amulet has been proven rather blatantly false multiple times

 
Why would he need constant exertion to keep already hypnotized beings hypnotized exactly? Being hypnotized doesn't require you to constantly exert your influence over them. The real challenge is getting them in that state in the first place. He's not maintaining a spell to swing a stopwatch the entire time over their eyes as he already has them under his sway. I'm not sure why we'd divorce how hypnotism has worked in every fiction I can think of and real-life just because Kun also has telepathy?

This is context that you are inventing flat out to suit your own needs. So lets use a more similar example from Jedi Academy


Kyp frowned, but thought he knew what was happening. "You've traveled a long way today," he said. "It's cool and dark in here. Why don't you sleep? The floor looks smooth and comfortable. You can curl up against the wall."

As if hypnotized, Dorsk 81 shambled over to a corner and slithered down against the wall until he lay with his back pressed against the obsidian slab. He fell asleep almost before he had settled into place.

"Now you and I can continue in a more appropriate setting." The deep, loud voice echoed like distant thunder inside the chamber.

Kyp turned to see the hooded silhouette of Exar Kun like a black oil stain shimmering in the air. Kyp stood tall, squashing a thrill of terror every time the ancient Lord of the Sith spoke to him.

Kyp indicated Dorsk 81. "Will he wake up? Will he see you?"

Exar Kun raised his shadowy arms. "Not until we have finished," he said.

What you are doing is inventing a form of context without any evidence to back that up because "well it just must work that way because it makes sense. When Kun uses beast control or mind control, it requires power to maintain. When Kun hypnotises people in JA or puts them into a coma, it requires power to maintain. When Kun's contemporaries such as Aleema hypnotise people it requires power to maintain. Every example of Kun's mental abilities requires power to maintain so why shouldn't this one other than "well in all other media this is what hypnotism means" 


Is this helpful for you? Him seeming not to require any effort and disassociating him from actively engaging everyone at the same time? So basically it didn't require constant attention and at best it required very little effort in the first place? What was keeping them under exactly if he didn't have to mentally engage everyone, and what required any exertion?

I fail to this this as anything more than deliberate straw-manning. The whole point was the effortlessness of the feat. How easily his sorcery paralyzed the senators. 


 Is it possible that admitting that Kun didn't need much effort downplays the expressiveness of it being the greatest "mental feat of all time?
I didn't ever refer to it as such. Again, blatant strawmanning


"Here we have the greatest mental feat ever in Star Wars accomplished while he fights the Yoda of his era. The only reason Voda stood up to him was that he was splitting his exertion between the senate... but get this ladies and pre-pubescent boys, he wasn't even expending much effort to control them either while fighting Yodo. Also, it was a big hypnosis spell."

Again, you are blatantly straw-manning my position and making claims that I never actually fucking did. My entire opinion on the Vodo fight has been posted elsewhere in this thread. 


And it still didn't work against the Jedi at the end of the day. How does anything you wrote help him against Malgus? He hypnotizes a crowd so he can exert minimal effort against Malgus? He mindrapes padawans with zero mental defenses before they can defend themselves? He's better than Mara who is a self-admitted failure in TP while she's at some of her lowest levels ever?

More blatant straw-manning and ignoring the context of things I have been posting. I'm not even going to bother dealing with some of this because its simply so evident to anyone who actually reads it that the point I am making and the point you imply I am attempting to make is radically different. I was never actually ever even referring to Malak in regards to Kun's telepathic ability just doing a blanket dump post on the subject 

That post was intended to establish context for an upcoming post.
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April 9th 2020, 3:24 am
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@Decaf_Beverages wrote:
None of your sources claim he did need constant exertion. However, we have it as a pre-conceived spell and we have it being hypnotism. And we have him specifically activating his amulet to control the president, yet he required no activation the entire time the crowd was frozen. It seems pretty clear cut.

Sorry, are you trying to claim that Kun requires his amulet to use his mental spells here? Because Kun not being able to use his spells without his amulet has been proven rather blatantly false multiple times

I'm saying that in the same scene the senate was in a hypnotic state that he activated the amulet to make the President talk. Indicating the amulet was in play in that specific scene for a puppeteer act. If he needs to activate the amulet to control the president, then does it not make sense for him to use it to cast his initial spell - a far greater feat? If that's the case, then wouldn't it make sense for him to have the amulet on to maintain this far greater feat? Just spitballing here but seems Ood to me.

And no I didn't say that, don't STRAW-MAN ME, but still, citation needed.

 
Why would he need constant exertion to keep already hypnotized beings hypnotized exactly? Being hypnotized doesn't require you to constantly exert your influence over them. The real challenge is getting them in that state in the first place. He's not maintaining a spell to swing a stopwatch the entire time over their eyes as he already has them under his sway. I'm not sure why we'd divorce how hypnotism has worked in every fiction I can think of and real-life just because Kun also has telepathy?

This is context that you are inventing flat out to suit your own needs. So lets use a more similar example from Jedi Academy


Kyp frowned, but thought he knew what was happening. "You've traveled a long way today," he said. "It's cool and dark in here. Why don't you sleep? The floor looks smooth and comfortable. You can curl up against the wall."

As if hypnotized, Dorsk 81 shambled over to a corner and slithered down against the wall until he lay with his back pressed against the obsidian slab. He fell asleep almost before he had settled into place.

"Now you and I can continue in a more appropriate setting." The deep, loud voice echoed like distant thunder inside the chamber.

Kyp turned to see the hooded silhouette of Exar Kun like a black oil stain shimmering in the air. Kyp stood tall, squashing a thrill of terror every time the ancient Lord of the Sith spoke to him.

Kyp indicated Dorsk 81. "Will he wake up? Will he see you?"

Exar Kun raised his shadowy arms. "Not until we have finished," he said.


Great. Where was it stated he needed constant exertion to keep him in that state? Not only that but ctrl+f for hypnotize in the novel doesn't mean that it's the same as actual hypnosis. "As if" likens it to that state but it isn't confirmation in itself. Very well could be just commanding him to sleep, which is an actual power.



What you are doing is inventing a form of context without any evidence to back that up because "well it just must work that way because it makes sense. When Kun uses beast control or mind control, it requires power to maintain. When Kun hypnotises people in JA or puts them into a coma, it requires power to maintain. When Kun's contemporaries such as Aleema hypnotise people it requires power to maintain. Every example of Kun's mental abilities requires power to maintain so why shouldn't this one other than "well in all other media this is what hypnotism means" 


I am merely using what has been supplied and based on evidence of hypnotism. All you're doing is going "No hypnotism doesn't work like that in Star Wars because you're inventing that!" You have no proof. You not only have no proof of how hypnotism works in Star Wars, but you also have no proof that it was a constant exertion from Kun. Stomping your feet doesn't summon up a sith spell to supply evidence I'm afraid my good man. Maybe huff and cross your arms too and you might come up with something.

And because hypnotism doesn't require a constant exertion to keep in this state. It's not mental domination Decaf. It's not guiding someone to do something. If he's not actively commanding them to do new things then where is the exertion coming from when they're already under that state? The exertion is in the initial state, the initial cast of the spell, but you've done nothing to show or explain why it would require additional exertion with no new commands. Why would we ignore how it works in real life because of your headcanon? With no alternative explanation available to us, why would we ignore the only examples we have? You know telepathy is full-on mental warfare that requires additional input, so why are you contrasting it with hypnotism?

What is hypnotism Decaf?

I don't think you're telling the truth here. Citation needed.

Is this helpful for you? Him seeming not to require any effort and disassociating him from actively engaging everyone at the same time? So basically it didn't require constant attention and at best it required very little effort in the first place? What was keeping them under exactly if he didn't have to mentally engage everyone, and what required any exertion?

I fail to this this as anything more than deliberate straw-manning. The whole point was the effortlessness of the feat. How easily his sorcery paralyzed the senators. 

Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too then. You want it to be a constant exertion based on you sighing really loudly, but you also don't want to be held accountable for saying it at the same time. Trying to distance yourself from saying it in your next exasperated sigh.

And yes, I agree, how he paralyzed the senators is impressive, I've maintained that position from the start. The problem is you come in without the ability to read the room and see me talking with Cheth about it to where he likened it to a massive feat because he was fighting the Yoda of his time. Then you huff and puff and fail to blow the house down with your herky-jerky refusal to explain why it has to be a constant exertion, thus tying it to the original contention.

Especially when you say interesting lines like "I never claimed or even intended to claim that Kun was actively mentally engaged with all ten thousand plus senators." So what exactly is he maintaining I say to that? What is he doing somewhere in the back of his mind? I ask rhetorically of course because you refuse to answer, but it's a pretty cool question I feel.


 Is it possible that admitting that Kun didn't need much effort downplays the expressiveness of it being the greatest "mental feat of all time?
I didn't ever refer to it as such. Again, blatant strawmanning

Again, read the room. This is bigger than you as all arguments you're part of are.   ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 2960029119


"Here we have the greatest mental feat ever in Star Wars accomplished while he fights the Yoda of his era. The only reason Voda stood up to him was that he was splitting his exertion between the senate... but get this ladies and pre-pubescent boys, he wasn't even expending much effort to control them either while fighting Yodo. Also, it was a big hypnosis spell."

Again, you are blatantly straw-manning my position and making claims that I never actually fucking did. My entire opinion on the Vodo fight has been posted elsewhere in this thread. 

You don't know what your own position is, and I'm 90 percent sure you learned the term "straw-man" from my own post.

Let's contrast these two things:

@Decaf_Beverages wrote:Here, we have the third major instance of Kun's telepathy, the Senate scene

The point of this feat is not again that he did this feat. The power required to capture and freeze tens of thousands of individuals with telepathy is certainly no joke. But the point here is that he was able to use these abilities while actively in combat and with seemingly little to no effort. 
@Decaf_Beverages wrote: And note how I only ever stated that the power to maintain such an ability was seemingly effortless for him, even during a duel with one of the greatest masters of the era. I never claimed or even intended to claim that Kun was actively mentally engaged with all ten thousand plus senators

You say he freezes tens of thousands of people with telepathy which is no joke, then you immediately say he maintained those abilities (freezing tens of thousands of people with telepathy) with little to no effort. Now you're claiming he wasn't even mentally engaged with all of them. If he's not engaged with them, then where does that leave us? That he's just exerting a small amount of energy to maintain the hold and it's not near the distraction you implied beforehand? Because there's a pretty stark difference between actively shutting down tens of thousands of minds and keeping them shut down and not having to engage every mind. What info is Kun processing while he's fighting?

Made even more questionable by you seeing things like this:

@Nute_Chethray wrote:Decaf already explained how Kun performed one of the greatest TP feats in all of SW while dueling Vodo. And still it was a pretty one-sided fight for Kun, Vodo never was close to an advantage. 
@Nute_Chethray wrote:
@TenebrousWay wrote:Kun became outdated after SWTOR come out. Most of the top tiers of Vitiate empire can give him a run to his money, even in the base game.
Which sith in SWTOR can freeze thousands of people (at least) while dueling the Yoda/Mace  of the era

And just responding to the Vodo part. The Vodo part which was pure headcanon too btw.

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And it still didn't work against the Jedi at the end of the day. How does anything you wrote help him against Malgus? He hypnotizes a crowd so he can exert minimal effort against Malgus? He mindrapes padawans with zero mental defenses before they can defend themselves? He's better than Mara who is a self-admitted failure in TP while she's at some of her lowest levels ever?

More blatant straw-manning and ignoring the context of things I have been posting. I'm not even going to bother dealing with some of this because its simply so evident to anyone who actually reads it that the point I am making and the point you imply I am attempting to make is radically different. I was never actually ever even referring to Malak in regards to Kun's telepathic ability just doing a blanket dump post on the subject 

That post was intended to establish context for an upcoming post.

Concession accepted.

Concession double accepted due to the BoogeyMalak clouding your vision.
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April 9th 2020, 3:37 am
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You don't seem to have understood a word I've said. 

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I think I understood what you said perfectly, especially considering your "rebuttal" is just a slightly longer rewording of your original argument. You didn't actually respond to anything I wrote, but I have a sneaky feeling that is because you also understood what I said and recognized you have absolutely no case here. 

STAR FORGE MALAK STUFF

The source already defines Malak's own actual power for us. He's getting more power from an external source, that external source is far more powerful than Exar Kun. 

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I already explained to you why this theory doesn't work. Here was your rebuttal to that:

And no, your attempt to appeal to the cybernetics, is irrelevant. Cybernetics are providing an amp, but that amp comes from external power. There's no way around that.

Just saying something is irrelevant is not a rebuttal. And, yes, cybernetics provide an amp and are not inherent in Malak's body. That's readily apparent to everyone, and a point I indicated in my own response. I have no clue why you're repeating it and then saying, "There's no way around that."

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 Darth_18

What "powers" does cybernetic enhancement provide Malak? Personal powers. Only personal powers. They enhance his body and Force powers. That means the "powers" in "did cybernetic enhancement provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" is referring to personal powers. Consider two alternatives to see why that's true. "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with POLITICAL powers far greater than Nadd or Kun, or was it too simple an explanation?" That doesn't make sense! Cybernetic enhancement cannot provide Malak with political power. Whatever "powers" means has to be able to be provided by "cybernetic enhancement." "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with an EXTERNAL POWER SOURCE that has powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd BUT MALAK HIMSELF DOES NOT?" That's your argument, but that also doesn't make sense! Cybernetics alone are obviously not more powerful than Kun, nor does it make sense that Malak would not share in their full benefit when they're integrated into his body. So, Malak is getting his power from an external source but that external source in and of itself is not what is more powerful than Kun. Again, whatever "powers" means has to be able to be provided by "cybernetic enhancement." The only usage of "powers" that that doesn't render the question senseless is personal powers. 

Put another way, cybernetic enhancement and the Star Forge space station would be explaining completely different things. One attempts to explain why Malak has personal powers greater than Nadd or Kun, the other would attempt to explain why Malak possesses a foreign object with powers far greater than Nadd or Kun. That doesn't work. By definition of the phrase "too simple an explanation," both should be referring to the same thing. And we already know what that thing is because cybernetic enhancement is necessarily referring to personal powers. Whatever the alternative is also has to be referring to personal powers. The only alternative that works there is that cybernetic enhancement is too simple an explanation for is his Star Forge-provided enhanced Force powers. 

All of the above is compounded by the statement from Bastila Shan that Revan can 'destroy' Malak on the Star Forge but still thinks that no one can stand against the power of the Star Forge itself, including Malak:

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The full line is, "You are a pathetic fool, Revan! Together we could have defeated Malak and ruled over an Empire, but now I will be at Lord Malak's side instead! You will be crushed with the Republic and all the fools who bow down to the Jedi Council! No one can stand against the power of the Star Forge and the Sith fleet!" This is blatantly in reference to how Malak plans to use the Star Forge to create an infinite fleet of warships to steamroll the Republic. Malak never even planned to weaponize the Star Forge to attack the Jedi combatively. That's probably not even possible. It's not a Death Star. 

And all that segways into another issue with your whole proposal, albeit a harder one to explain. The Star Forge is a factory and a sentience that funnels power into Malak. It doesn't have a "power-level." It doesn't scale to others. It doesn't fight. And, if we were to characterize it as its own entity and throw it into versus debates, then we would figure it's demonstrably below Revan and Malak. They explicitly had to resist its attempts to drain Force them to active the station: "There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power." And Malak's not just activating the Forge--he's pushing it to three-hundred percent capacity and forging a bond with it--despite its active resistance.

So, if we really are going to think of it in those terms, then Malak "scales above the Star Forge" anyway. Whatever that means. Either way, he's more powerful than Kun.

Why? Because it is made absolutely clear that the Star Forge would eventually feed on and literally end the Force itself; with further implication that not even Revan can prevent this with his will: That's its potential, something a far more powerful (at least) incarnation of Vitiate than the one we all have over Malak, could never hope to achieve without a mega ritual to do so.

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That's it's potential, yes. And Nihilus' potential is also galaxy-consuming. That doesn't mean they have galaxy-consuming powers already though. Evidently they do not. The Star Forge can't even drain Malak yet. How's it draining the galaxy? Are you proposing the quote instead means, "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with POTENTIAL powers far greater than Nadd or Kun, or was it too simple an explanation?"

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*** READER PLEASE READ ****

Please do not mistake posting an argument against X as proof that X is actually disputable. My good friend LadyKulvax is, unfortunately, presenting an alternative explanation for what "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" means that is absolutely incompatible with all the surrounding context. It just doesn't work. It's like trying to fit a circle object through a square hold. You can keep on trying it--and maybe if you try it long enough then other people may think that, just maybe, a circle object CAN fit through a square hole-but, at the end of the day, it's just not possible. It doesn't work. Only a square object fits through a square hole.

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OTHER STUFF

[2]It having the involvement of Leland Chee doesn't render it any less fallible at all. It's a C-canon statement vetted by LFL. Chee doesn't have some magic infallibility touch. It must stand up to scrutiny as much as anything else.

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Whatever Chee says is by definition not fallible, because he decides what is fallible and what isn't. He indeed has the magic infallibility touch. 

[3]The fun thing about this is that the big dog ancients are consistently top tier throughout all Star Wars mythos works. And unfortunately for you Nihilus' planet-killing is part of his technique which is literally taught to him by Kreia, who explains that the ancient Sith can all achieve this themselves.

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Kreia teaching Nihilus how to drain planets doesn't mean she can also drain planets. Power Beyond Belief even explains it's not something Nihilus could teach to an apprentice and that its due to unique hunger and power--unique hunger and power that Kreia does not share. "Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice." Besides, if Kreia could do it, then you would expect someone she describes as one the most powerful Force users ever, the heart of the Force, and the personification of power, and someone Avellone (referencing intent since you're referencing intent) says was "far" more powerful than Kreia and could even beat her and Meetra combined, could also replicate the feat. How's this supposed to hurt Malak (who is far more powerful than the Revan that Kreia knows)? 

Meetra's opinion isn't nearly the same as Kreia's statements and you know it. Kreia's statements aren't just confirmed to be accurate as is the generic confirmation. Avellone has outright called her his in-universe mouthpiece and gives us an in-universe reason as to why she's right. She has the holocrons of Telos IV to provide her with a frame of reference.

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Meetra has first-hand and second-hand knowledge of both Revan and Nihilus. She fought alongside Revan across a mega war and constantly sensed and saw his power on display (though we know Revan hid "tremendous dark side power" from her, meaning he's way more powerful than she even believed). Meetra fought against Nihilus and had ten different characters explain to her everything about him, including how he consumed Katarr and his specific effects to the planet. When Meetra says Revan is more powerful than Nihilus, that claim absolutely is just as if not more reliable than Kreia's. So, if you're going to scale Nadd and Kun above Nihilus, scale Revan too. 

FREEDON NADD.

I'll just bullet-point this, if you don't mind.


  • You have to actually prove Kreia's agreeing with the Mandalorian's whole paragraph. There's no indication of that. The claim that she specifically repeats after saying "yes" to is the claim that this is a dark side nexus and the Sith can exploit that. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.
  • You have to actually prove "far worse" is referring to Force powers rather just the literal meaning of being far worse. Nadd is a "legendary tyrant" who subjugated his city by force and had criminals be eaten alive by wild animals. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.

1.Killing Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat and destroying Malachor V.
2.Being the literal prodigal knight among the Jedi even moreso than Kavar was who was famed for his combat prowess.
3.Would be even more feared than Meetra was among the Mandalorians for her prowess on the battlefield.
4.Is infamous for killing Yusanis in single-combat.
5.Is famous for killing Malak and ending the Sith Empire

  • The above is a list of feats you compiled for Revan that the Mandalorians should know about when they never-say the stories indicate Nadd is far more powerful than him. Notice none of those feats remotely convey Revan's power besides (5), but no one would have an inkling of how powerful Malak is. Malak never ran around and telepathically subjugated planets for everyone to see. His power is revealed through far smaller scale but wildly impressive feats, such as activating and driving the Star Forge to new heights. If I were a Mandalorian and read those feats for Revan and then Nadd's feats, I would also say the stories might suggest Nadd is far more powerful. That doesn't mean it's true, though. They don't reveal the full extent of what Revan can do. 
  • I can go through it further, but those points are sufficient. And it doesn't matter. You're arguing a cut-content scene where a random Mandalorian maybe-possibly says Nadd is more powerful than Revan and Kreia maybe-possibly agrees is retconning the Malak quote. It doesn't. The Malak quote would take precedent notwithstanding all the issues with this quote, let alone with them. An in-universe character opinion like that can't override Chee and LFL, lol. 

[5]Absolutely nowhere? Did you actually read it?

The most infamous graduate, however, is that of Exar Kun, trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas himself. Exar Kun was a Jedi Apprentice that turned away from the light side to embrace the seductive power of ancient Sith magic.Forty years ago he began a war upon the Republic that had grave consequences, but through great effort and sacrifice on the part of the Jedi he was defeated. The legacy of his taint is slowly passing away in the wake of the Mandalorian Wars and the coming of a new Sith threat.

The quote is entirely about him, his power, defeating him specifically and his lasting taint slowly fading. But what's the greater context immediately preceding the statement that the Academy's most infamous graduate is Kun?

The most notable feature of Dantooine is the Jedi academy, originally founded by Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. For generations now it has served to train promising Jedi Padawans, with several dozen students in attendance at any given time.

It's talking about Jedi, from the Dantooine Academy. He's most infamous for the powers he gained through Sith magic. But I was really hoping you'd bite, to be honest. Because there's another quote:[hideedit]

So an academy dedicated to the Jedi with the greatest potential and is the source of some of the most powerful Force-users(guess who) has a 'pall' (infamy) cast on its legacy because of Exar Kun, Malak and Revan. Guess who is stated to be the most infamous graduate? The quote couldn't be more obviously talking about his power.

Nowhere. Infamous means famous for being bad or famous for using your powers for bad. It's all about being bad. It's not about being famous for being powerful. That's just not what the word means. The fact they say Exar Kun embraced Sith magic and was defeated in battle, as you highlighted proof!!! it's referring to Force power, doesn't mean anything. Why would that mean "infamous" doesn't mean infamous anymore? The fact the Academy produces Force prodigies is likewise irrelevant. If you went to Harvard and then killed trillions  and someone labeled you "infamous," that doesn't mean you're infamous for being smart. You're infamous for killing trillions. 

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CONCLUSION

You have absolutely no grounds to say "infamous" or "worse" is interchangeable with "Force power" when you're arguing "powers" used in the context of cybernetic enhancement doesn't mean "Force power." Vote for Kun because he's infamous. Vote for the Outlander because he is canonically far more powerful than Kun. Your choice.


Last edited by Jaggarath on June 7th 2020, 10:07 pm; edited 3 times in total
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

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April 9th 2020, 3:46 am
After careful consideration, I switch my vote to Outlander.
Dolph
Dolph
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April 9th 2020, 4:01 am
I choose THE COMMANDER
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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April 9th 2020, 6:49 am
Outlander
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

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April 9th 2020, 1:29 pm
@DarthAnt66 great rebuttal ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #12 - Alliance Commander - Page 7 1289255181
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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April 10th 2020, 6:21 pm
The Outlander wins the vote. I'll tally up everything later tonight. Onto the next round for now.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3061-top-fifteen-tournament-13-vote-now#57881
The lord of hunger
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April 10th 2020, 6:39 pm
excellent
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