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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:23 pm
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Top_fi12

Vaylin has been voted in as the #13 most powerful Star Wars character.

PLEASE READ: Even if a character has not ranked yet, they will have the opportunity to be raised to a higher position during the REVOTING after round 15. However, only characters that are ranked will be allowed to be revoted. Please continue to vote for characters, regardless if you think they should have been ranked already.

1. Luke Skywalker
2. Palpatine
3. Valkorion
4. Irek Ismaren
5/6. Anakin Skywalker
5/6. Darth Krayt
7. Yoda
8. Darth Plagueis
9. Mace Windu
10. Revan
11. Darish Vol
12. Alliance Commander
13. Vaylin
14. Darth Caedus
15. Kueller

RULES

The metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus would need an amp to defeat them.

For example, would Darth Malgus (as of the novel Deceived) need a greater boost in raw Force potency—which, for both the purposes of this tournament and within the lore, simply amplifies all abilities proportionate to their former levels—to defeat Yoda or UnuThul? Remember that this tournament aims to rank characters based on their overall combative threat level, NOT their raw Force potency. All characters will operate at their peak actualized iterations barring circumstantial or momentary amps. While everyone will fight in-character—meaning Yoda will not be bloodlusted—they will be aiming to kill Malgus as quickly and efficiently as possible with nothing held back.

If you have not already, please open the spoiler boxes to read the guidelines and banned characters for the tournament.

GUIDELINES

Spoiler:
A thread titled "Top Fifteen Tournament #1" will be created. Members can comment on who they believe Darth Malgus would need the greatest amp to defeat, e.g. Luke Skywalker. Members are welcome to debate other members to change votes. After six days, the votes will be tallied. Members will then choose between the two most voted upon characters. The winner will be ranked as #1 on our list, and "Top Fifteen Tournament #2" will be created now excluding the #1 pick.

BANNED CHARACTERS

Spoiler:
The following is a list of characters that will not be included in the tournament. This list may be added to.

  • The Father
  • The Son
  • The Daughter
  • Abeloth
  • Force Priestesses
  • Tilotny
  • Horliss-Horliss
  • Cold Danda Sine
  • Splendid Ap
  • Waru
  • Wutzek
  • Yuuzhan'tar
  • Sekot
  • Mnggal-Mnggal
  • Mother
  • Soa
  • World Razer
  • Sel-Makor
  • Darth Nihilus
  • Charal
  • Ewoks
  • Shimrra Jamaane
  • Onimi
  • UnuThul
  • Welk
  • Lomi Plo
  • Aing-Tii
  • Tsils
  • Sarasu Taalon

[hideedit]


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on June 17th 2020, 8:33 pm; edited 3 times in total
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:24 pm
Vaylin wins.
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BoD
Level Six
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:24 pm
Vaylin.
Praxis
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:43 pm
Vaylin
Nute_Chethray
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:44 pm
Boba ez
Dolph
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Level Three
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:50 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin QWD9chhSwo71hWTxuOm_6wpEFRMzn8CtQZGorGxnj0M1r8_b9LHzoiiqHwhMgc2s6g_Rat_g4OxWfCL8ZQhMW7pej47rRrQWence7Dh9IAVYZlsGa2PRMjk5ybd4_zc4nDT_nJv_

A CASE FOR KUELLER


1. BEGINNING NOVEL KUELLER

Kueller feeds off the deaths of millions, making him far more powerful.

Yet Kueller glowed, as if the pain of those million voices had fed something within him, had made him even greater than he had been before.

These deaths and Kueller's ascendancy shift the balance of the Force.

This disturbance would not be as great, but Skywalker would feel it. All the young Jedi would feel it too, and they would know that the balance of power had shifted.

But they wouldn't know that power had shifted to him. To Kueller, Master of Almania, and soon, lord of all their pitiful worlds.

Brakiss, who "amazed" Luke with his power and has "so much a Force connection," greatly fears Kueller's power. 

Kueller had helped put him together, and Brakiss served the powerful man out of gratitude and fear.

Brakiss shivered. The movement was fine, almost invisible, but Luke felt it as well as saw it. Brakiss wasn’t afraid of Luke. He was afraid of the person who had sent Luke the message. The person who wanted Luke in Almania.

So powerful that a man like Brakiss, who had so much talent in the Force that the Empire had taken him, as a baby, to train in the dark side, was terrified of him.

Those words had reverberated for Luke as Brakiss ran to his ship, as he escaped Yavin 4, as he tried to flee himself. I was amazed how strongly the Force was with him. I took it upon myself to train him as a Jedi. I thought that I could instruct him as well as Yoda. I was wrong. 

Kueller already scales above Kyp Durron and Mara Jade, and needs to only kill Luke and Leia to become the most powerful Force user in the galaxy.

Kueller had decided to kill them both, in order to become the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. 

Kueller had decided to kill them both, in order to become the most powerful Force user in the galaxy. A young man’s hands. Not the hands of the most powerful man in the galaxy. Not yet. But soon. Very soon.

“But if Kueller destroys you, he scatters the Jedi, and becomes the strongest in the Force in the galaxy.”

2. MID NOVEL KUELLER


Kueller’s power continues to grow, fueled by the Pydyr death energies and his hatred.

The hatred had festered so deep in him that it fueled the dark side. No wonder he had grown so strong so quickly.

Kueller's power makes the planet Almania feel like a planetary dark side nexus to Luke.

The feeling grew stronger, both familiar and unfamiliar. The dark side was strong near Almania. Almost as if the entire planet were awash in it. Luke's mouth was dry. Perhaps he should go back to Coruscant and get help. Leia, Han, anyone. Going into this alone would be very destructive and difficult.

Luke even grows physically cold as he approaches Almania. 

Kueller blocks Luke's telepathic connection with Leia, which Luke notes to be an unprecedented occurrence.

But the connection broke; shattered as it never had before. He couldn’t feel her. He reached with his mind, feeling for her familiar sense, and she wasn’t there. It was as if someone had built a wall around his mind.

Leia?

She couldn’t be dead, could she? Her thought for him had been filled with concern, but he thought the concern was for him, not because she was in trouble. Leia? He sought out the children, and could feel them, squabbling happily on Anoth. He even got a sense of his students back on Yavin 4, but not of Leia. Or of anyone close to her. Something was blocking him. Something purposeful.

Luke reaffirms Kueller is more powerful than Kyp Durron or Mara Jade.

Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy. 

Luke identifies the source of the power as having a malevolence unlike anyone he has felt since Palpatine.

But this wasn't Brakiss. That much he knew. This was someone else. Someone equally familiar.

And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away.

The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then.

But this wasn't Palpatine. This was someone else. Someone Luke had known.

Luke states Kueller is more powerful than any living being he has felt since Palpatine. Note that this is likely in reference to Return of the Jedi Palpatine, as Bantam Books either differentiate Dark Empire Palpatine as instead the “reborn Emperor” or outright ignore the series. This quote referring to Dark Empire also breaks much of the existing lore established in New Rebellion - in that the "Emperor" is always referred to as his Return of the Jedi iteration unless explicitly mentioned otherwise, meaning Kueller scales above Joruus C’baoth and Dathomir-amped Gethzerion. 

The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. 

Some might argue that this also breaks the existing lore, because Sidious in Dark Empire was more powerful than Return of the Jedi, but it would also mean that Leia believes Kueller is more powerful than Dark Empire Sidious. The real OOU explanation is that Bantam Books ignored the events of Dark Empire all together.

Gethzerion was able to one-shot Luke Skywalker as of 8 ABY with the Force:

“I’ve met your kind before,” Luke said. “Listen to me, Gethzerion: turn away from the dark side before it is too late!”

Gethzerion nodded thoughtfully. “Pardon me if I say that I don’t find you to be very impressive, young Jedi. It’s a shame that you must die before you have a chance to witness how I make your friends writhe.”

She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.

Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.

Joruus C'baoth was able to fire lightning with enough force to knock Luke off balance, drop him painfully onto his knees, and cause him to struggle to get up, in spite of the latter using his lightsaber to defend himself from it, and in spite of the lighting not hitting Skywalker directly.

Luke dropped his lightsaber back into defense position, senses again tingling with danger. But once again, the knowledge did him little good. C’baoth’s lightning burst flashed against the lightsaber blade, the impact knocking Luke off balance and dropping him painfully onto his knees in the pile of stones around him. Even as he struggled to get up, one of the falling rocks slammed hard into the side of his head. He staggered, toppling sideways onto one hand. Again the lightning flashed, throwing coronal fire all through the stone pile and sending wave after wave of agony through him. The lightsaber was plucked from his fingers; dimly he saw it fly over the railing toward the far end of the throne room.

Note that a far weaker iteration of Luke was capable of briefly deflecting RotJ Sidious' lightning with the Force, (which is far more difficult than repelling it with a lightsaber) though the Emperor overwhelmed him. 

Palpatine raised his spidery arms toward Luke: blinding white bolts of energy coruscated from his fingers, shot across the room like sorcerous lightning, and tore through the boy’s insides, looking for ground. The young Jedi was all at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it. But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful -- the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls. Soon, though, the shocks came with such speed and power, they coursed over and into him, and he could only shrink before them, convulsed with pain, his knees buckling, his powers at ebb.

Kueller then easily defeats Luke. However, Luke was below “ten percent” of his full power, suffering severe burns and broken bones after having fallen far from his exploded X-Wing. Note that Kueller believed that, even though Luke was terribly injured, he would still be a “formidable opponent."

Slowly Kueller drew his lightsaber, the hiss filling the street. Its blade burned blue.

"I don't want to fight you, Dolph," Luke said.

"You won't be fighting Dolph," Kueller replied. He slashed at Luke. In one quick movement, Luke grabbed his lightsaber and blocked Kueller's swipe with his own blade. The electric clang of the sabers filled the air, sending sparks all around them. Each movement ripped at Luke's back, but he focused on the blade instead: parrying, defending, blocking, never really attacking. He would wait until Kueller was open before making his move.

Kueller hit at Luke's left, then his right, then his heart. But Luke kept blocking. Kueller pushed Luke backward, toward the house. Luke stumbled on his weak leg, and collapsed on the knee. A river of pain ran through his thigh. Kueller brought his lightsaber down onto Luke's shoulder, but Luke rolled away from it, his back burning as dirt from the road ground into his wounds.

He pushed himself up and swiped at Kueller, singeing his cape. The hum of lightsabers filled the air. Sweat ran down Luke's face. His strength was gone. He had gone through too much in the last few days. But he concentrated on Kueller's movements, lived for Kueller's movements, blocked them, anticipated them, and held his ground.

In a series of five rapid thrusts, Kueller moved Luke backward again. Luke parried, parried, parried, but couldn't keep his balance. His ankle was clearly broken and unable to support him. Kueller jabbed at Luke's left side. Luke swiveled to dodge, and Kueller jabbed again. Luke's ankle buckled, but he didn't fall. Kueller pushed closer, and knocked Luke's lightsaber from his hand.

Kueller held his blue blade beneath Luke's chin. Luke could feel its heat, smell its electric tang.

"I should kill you now," Kueller said.

Luke was breathing hard, but he felt no fear. He could call the lightsaber to him, and continue the battle, but somehow he knew that Kueller wasn't yet ready to kill him. 

Luke Skywalker investigated Brakiss' droid-manufacturing plant on Telti and set out for Almania. His X-Wing had been sabotaged, though, and while he was passing the devastated moon of Pydyr, the X-Wing exploded. Skywalker bailed out and found himself stranded on Pydyr, with third-degree burns on his back and a shattered left ankle. His left leg had been weak ever since his ordeal aboard the Eye of Palpatine, and he found himself unable to move without assistance.

Kueller was unable to resist such a rich prize as a wounded Jedi Master. He traveled to Pydyr, where Skywalker recognized the skull-masked nightmare as Dolph, his former pupil. Skywalker tried to reach the core of goodness inside Kueller, but failed. The Almanian autocrat forced a lightsaber duel and easily defeated his hobbled opponent. 

And after he reached her, he would go to Skywalker. Even though the man was injured, even though he had lost everything, he would still be a formidable opponent.

After losing terribly, Luke believes he would need “all of his strength” to defeat Kueller.

He was resting, regaining his strength as best he could. The feeling of being watched was gone, for the moment, but he knew it would return. And it had something to do with Almania. After he let the food settle, he would question the house’s computer again. He was hoping it knew of a bacta tank or the Pydyrian equivalent. Anything to help him heal faster. He had to do more than Jedi practices. He knew that he would need all of his strength. 

Leia believes Kueller is more powerful than any living being she has encountered for many years, including Luke (and Dark Empire Sidious if you still don't believe that quote refers to RotJ Sidious).

And to preemptively address rebuttals to RotJ/DE Sidious, Leia would know the full potency of Dark Empire Sidious very well. And if this is true, then let's put him in the #2 spot above Sheev, shall we? ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 3344068304

The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine.

She wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive. He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them much too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

3. END NOVEL KUELLER


Kueller’s power continues to grow, now further fueled by terrorist bombings across the Smuggler’s Run. Mara Jade likens this growth to “a droid hooked up to a power cable” and suggests he may soon become outright unbeatable. Note, she knows that RotJ Palpatine was beatable. 

She leaned against the wall. "Do you know how many people have died in the last few weeks, Solo?"

"Enough," he said, thinking of the Run.

"More than enough," she said. "Too many. Kueller's using them to build strength. He's absorbing the dark side like a droid hooked up to a power cable. If this continues, he may be unbeatable."

Mara Jade states Kueller’s power is comparable to “early days” Palpatine. This is likely in reference to Palpatine’s power-level between Revenge of the Sith and A New Hope, as Mara Jade was taken and apprenticed by Palpatine as a child not long after 17 BBY. Note that Mara Jade has sensed the “supreme power” of Joruus C’baoth.

“I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days.”

Mara swallowed, shivering from the cold night wind and the colder feeling within her. Thrawn had said that C’baoth was insane, and she could indeed hear the unstable edge of madness in his voice. But there was far more to the man than just that. There was a hard steel behind the voice, ruthless and calculating, with a sense of both supreme power and supreme confidence underlying it all.

Mara Jade believes Kueller could become stronger than Palpatine and quicker. Note that Palpatine’s growth rate was immense. In six months, Darth Vader went from pleading with Luke to join him to “no longer daring to entertain thoughts of rebellion” because “the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever” and “omniscient.”

“If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.”

Vader, who was all too aware of the Sith “rule of two” that mandated a single master and a single apprentice at any time, had his own designs on Luke. Palpatine’s omniscience, however, had changed the rules of engagement. Vader no longer dared to entertain thoughts of rebellion, not when the Emperor seemed more powerful than ever before."

Kueller then decisively defeats Luke in a climatic final duel. Open the spoiler tag to read their full fight:

Spoiler:
Luke dodged as Leia's lightsaber sailed in the air toward him, landing neatly in his fingers.

Immediately he ignited the blade and its reassuring hum echoed in the growing darkness.

"Ah," Kueller said. "So you have chosen to fight me. Careful, Master Skywalker. If you do so with the wrong attitude, you might join my side."

"I've fought better than you, Kueller," Luke said. The lightsaber felt odd in his hand. "And won."

"Years ago, Skywalker. You've become complacent." Kueller slashed at Luke. Luke parried, the electric clash of blades ringing in the night air.

Then Kueller whirled and blocked several bursts of blaster fire. Leia peeked out of the bay doors.

"Leave him alone, Kueller. It's me you want!" she yelled.

His death mask glowed from an internal light. It made his smile even more sinister than usual. "Actually, President, I want your entire family. Without them, there are no true Jedi." Luke inched closer. His blade was still out, still humming. He wanted Kueller to fight him, not Leia. Leia wasn't ready yet. "Actually, Kueller, there are dozens of Jedi now."

"But not Jedi Masters, Skywalker."

"There are more than you imagine," Luke said, thinking of Callista. She would provide quite a battle against Kueller, even without the Force.

Kueller turned to Luke, and Leia fired again. Without even looking at her, Kueller blocked the blaster shots. The shots flew harmlessly to the sides. Then her blaster rose in the air, and exploded a few feet above her head.

"Use another of those, President, and it will explode in your hand."

"You like explosions, don't you, Kueller?" she said. Luke suppressed a smile. She was trying to distract him so Luke could attack. But it wasn't that easy. Kueller had pushed Luke far enough that Luke's feelings were confused. He wasn't certain if he was going after Kueller out of anger or hatred, instead of in defense. That would only make Kueller stronger.

He seemed to be stronger anyway, giving credence to Luke's theory.

"Small explosions, President," Kueller said, his blade still locked with Luke's. "Large ones destroy wealth." Leia stepped out of the bay. She was unarmed. "Even if you kill us, Kueller, you won't get the rest of us. The explosives you put in the droids won't work. We shut the droids off."

"Did you, now?" Kueller's tone was mocking. Luke could feel the physical pressure Kueller was putting on the blade. They were locked in a battle of wills, their strength holding the blades together in a haze of light. "You managed to tell all the developed planets about the droids, President? Because if you didn't, then I will still get enough strength from one single order to defeat you all. " A chill ran through Luke. All those lives. All those billions of lives. They meant nothing more to Kueller than a breath of air, a surge of adrenaline, a swallow of food. Anger flowed through Luke, deep and fine and rich. He had created this monster. Luke, through his arrogance, had given Kueller all the tools he needed to destroy the entire galaxy. If Luke hadn't taught all his students about the dark side, if he hadn't warned them repeatedly and in detail about the quick and easy path, then Kueller would still be Dolph, not this hateful being who wore a death mask proudly and dealt in lives as a smuggler dealt in stolen goods.

Kueller turned toward Luke and grinned. His lightsaber broke free from the enmeshment and whooshed near Luke. Luke jumped aside, pain shivering through his back, and down his arms.

Kueller had suddenly gotten stronger.

"Kueller!" Leia shouted. She held another blaster. He turned his attention to her, and Luke thrust his blade toward Kueller's side, drawing blood before Kueller swirled away.

Easy blood. The lightsaber moved with a sureness Luke had never felt before.

Leia's blaster was turning red. She tossed it aside before it exploded, and rolled in the opposite direction.

Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.

It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.

Luke staggered under Kueller's next blow, and barely managed to roll aside. His ankle kept buckling under him, but he forced himself to put weight on it. They had moved into the alleyway Luke had seen in that strange moment of vision. Stones littered the ground all around them, and the light only came through a small opening on either end. Luke could no longer see Leia.

Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.

Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.

Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Fueled by hatred, anger, and fear.

Luke was making him stronger. Luke's response, his hatred, his own self-loathing at creating this thing, this student who had become a horror, was making the thing even stronger.


Kueller slammed his blade against Luke's, and the sparks lit the area all around them. Luke parried. Parried again. And again. He was trapped in a cycle of hatred and anger. If he fought, Kueller got stronger, and if he attacked, Kueller got stronger still.

Luke glanced at the mouth of the alley.

No Leia.

He was alone with this thing he had created. The rogue student. The Vader to his Ben.

Vader.

Ben.

Luke grinned. He suddenly knew what he had to do to break free.

---

It was Luke's name.

And she said it in a voice that Han had never heard before, but he knew what it meant.

It meant he was too late.

Her hands were useless, and Kueller was no longer listening to her arguments. He was watching Luke.

Luke, who looked like a man possessed.

Luke, who had always warned her not to give in to anger, was giving in to his.


And Kueller was smiling. He seemed to be growing taller, and broader, the aura of power around him so great that it made him seem invincible.

Then a look passed across Luke's face. It was a familiar look, but it wasn't his. She had seen it before.

On the day she met him, so many years ago.

She had seen that look the only time she had seen Obi-Wan Kenobi alive. He had been fighting Darth Vader, and then he smiled, and raised his lightsaber--and Vader cut him in half. His lightsaber's blade faded, the hilt spinning through the air before landing on his empty, steaming cloak.

Luke had said Obi-Wan believed that moment made him stronger, but really it had only made him dead.

Dead.

Leia stumbled a few steps forward. Luke didn't see her in the growing darkness. Kueller hesitated as Luke slowly raised his light-saber blade toward his face.

Just as Obi-Wan had.

Kueller smiled.

Just as Vader must have.

"Luuuuuuuuuuke!" Leia screamed as Kueller brought his lightsaber up, preparing to strike.

---

Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.

Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.

Luke's lightsaber had reached a thirty-degree angle with his chin when he felt as if he were wrapped in a warm, soft blanket. He could still see through his eyes, but the rest of his senses were suddenly dim. He could no longer sense Leia or even Kueller.

His blade came up, and Kueller's blade swung back, but Luke couldn't leave his own body. He had lost the Force. It was gone. He was blind and numb without it.

He would die without it

Kueller's blade came down, and Luke limped out of the way only to back into the ruined tower wall. Kueller had him cornered. There was no place to go.

Luke was trapped, both inside, and out.

As highlighted in red, the battle is characterized as a dramatic step-up from Luke’s final duel with Vader. This time, now a far more powerful Luke again fights “like a man possessed” with anger and a “sureness he has never felt before.” Moreover, the battle's intensity is likened to "Luke's battle with Vader," but Kueller is then explicitly differentiated from “Vader’s stentorian breathing” and likened to “the Emperor’s greedy gasping" repeatedly. 

As highlighted in blue, Kueller feeds off Luke’s hatred throughout the fight, progressively growing stronger. By its end, Leia believes Kueller is seemingly “invincible,” and Luke begins to “stagger” under his empowered blows. Luke eventually recognizes the only way he can win is if he lets himself die. This is all in contrast to mid-novel Kueller believing Luke at below “ten percent” his full power would still be a good fight, validating the earlier quotes emphasizing Kueller’s growth rate.

He was resting, regaining his strength as best he could. The feeling of being watched was gone, for the moment, but he knew it would return. And it had something to do with Almania. After he let the food settle, he would question the house’s computer again. He was hoping it knew of a bacta tank or the Pydyrian equivalent. Anything to help him heal faster. He had to do more than Jedi practices. He knew that he would need all of his strength.

Note that Luke is still not back to full power during this fight. However, as mentioned earlier, Luke actively tries to heal these injuries as best he can, and practices Jedi exercises in preparation for the fight. Moreover, being rage-amped likely significantly nullified these handicaps, as he fought "like a man possessed" and with a "sureness he has never felt before." Note Luke was "well matched" and it was "a battle of equals" when fighting Vader on the Death Star, then when Luke received this same rage-amp, he stomped Vader accordingly. 

Just in case anyone forgot the metric we will be using for this tournament: the metric to rank characters will be the extent that Darth Malgus as of Decieved would need an amp to defeat them. Malgus is notorious for fueling himself with rage. As seen in the fight above, Kueller would continuously amping himself up to extreme levels in order to match Malgus' amp, and thus Malgus would not only have to have an amp to match Kueller's base level after his feeling of "invincibility" towards Luke, but he would need an even more gargantuan amp to account for Kueller's power levels increasing as Malgus draws on more rage.  

4. CONCLUSION


Kueller fed off the deaths of millions and became stronger than any living being Luke or Leia have felt since Palpatine. Then, Kueller fed off Luke’s hatred and became all-but “invincible” and seemingly significantly more powerful than Luke. Malgus would need a Kueller++ amp to compete with Kueller's growth rate, and his base is already above Gethzerion and Joruus C'baoth.


VOTE KUELLER. VOTE KUELLER. VOTE KUELLER. VOTE KUELLER.
Ziggy
Ziggy

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:51 pm
If Kueller is being considered doesn't Kun get auto placed above him.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 10th 2020, 6:53 pm
going kueller
Dolph
Dolph
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on April 10th 2020, 6:54 pm
@Ziggy wrote:If Kueller is being considered doesn't Kun get auto placed above him.
Why would that be?
NotAA3
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on April 10th 2020, 7:35 pm
Vaylin.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
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Level One

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on April 10th 2020, 7:49 pm
Ehh Dooku should be higher but I’d rather have him on the end of the list than not on the list at all. Plus the list is gonna be reordered at some point so it’s possible that Dooku, as well as any of the other characters will rise or fall in the ranks. So put me down for The Count
Nute_Chethray
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on April 10th 2020, 7:55 pm
Since I doubt any boba brigade will show up as support throw me in for Vaylin smh
Blade_of_Dorin
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on April 10th 2020, 8:00 pm
@Nute_Chethray wrote:Since I doubt any boba brigade will show up as support throw me in for Vaylin smh
Why vote for Boba when Kanos scales directly above him?  ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 4037459623
KingofBlades
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on April 10th 2020, 8:55 pm
Vaylin
DarthSkywalker0
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on April 10th 2020, 9:06 pm
Vaybae
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on April 10th 2020, 9:33 pm
kueller
Seturna
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on April 11th 2020, 2:13 am
Vaylin
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
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on April 11th 2020, 2:42 am
Vaylin
Gianfi
Gianfi

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on April 11th 2020, 2:59 am
Kueller
CuckedCurry
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on April 11th 2020, 4:15 am
KUN
Geistalt
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on April 11th 2020, 12:10 pm
Kueller.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on April 11th 2020, 1:30 pm
Kueller
NotAA3
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on April 11th 2020, 1:42 pm
Lorenzo, you already voted...
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on April 11th 2020, 4:30 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Lorenzo, you already voted...
oh, i forgot then my bad.
LadyKulvax
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★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin

on April 11th 2020, 11:15 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
You don't seem to have understood a word I've said. 

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

I think I understood what you said perfectly, especially considering your "rebuttal" is just a slightly longer rewording of your original argument. You didn't actually respond to anything I wrote, but I have a sneaky feeling that is because you also understood what I said and recognized you have absolutely no case here. 

The exact opposite is true. Your use of 'cybernetic enhancement' as a limiting factor is basically the only thing saving your argument. Unfortunately for you, it's completely inadequate.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:STAR FORGE MALAK STUFF

The source already defines Malak's own actual power for us. He's getting more power from an external source, that external source is far more powerful than Exar Kun. 

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

I already explained to you why this theory doesn't work. Here was your rebuttal to that:

And no, your attempt to appeal to the cybernetics, is irrelevant. Cybernetics are providing an amp, but that amp comes from external power. There's no way around that.

Just saying something is irrelevant is not a rebuttal. And, yes, cybernetics provide an amp and not inherent in Malak's body. That's readily apparent to everyone, and a point I indicated in my own response. I have no clue why you're repeating it and then saying, "There's no way around that."

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Darth_18

What "powers" does cybernetic enhancement provide Malak? Personal powers. Only personal powers. They enhance his body and Force powers. That means the "powers" in "did cybernetic enhancement provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" is referring to personal powers. Consider two alternatives to see why that's true. "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with POLITICAL powers far greater than Nadd or Kun, or was it too simple an explanation?" That doesn't make sense! Cybernetic enhancement cannot provide Malak with political power. Whatever "powers" means has to be able to be provided by "cybernetic enhancement." "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with an EXTERNAL POWER SOURCE that has powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd BUT MALAK HIMSELF DOES NOT?" That's your argument, but that also doesn't make sense! Cybernetics alone are obviously not more powerful than Kun, nor does it make sense that Malak would not share in their full benefit when they're integrated into his body. So, Malak is getting his power from an external source but that external source in and of itself is not what is more powerful than Kun. Again, whatever "powers" means has to be able to be provided by "cybernetic enhancement." The only usage of "powers" that that doesn't render the question senseless is personal powers.

The entire basis for your argument here is trying to define the amp based on an explanation provided by the text that is then immediately dismissed within the text itself. How exactly can you expect me or anyone else to subscribe the limits of cybernetic enhancement on the powers of Star Forge technology when a tiny portion of said station could make Revanite army troops nigh-immortal and which is stated itself to contain 'immeasurable' power:

Infinite Army wrote:Since its destruction, many have sought to own pieces of the fabled Star Forge–an automated Rakata shipyard capable of infinite manufacturing. A Selkath experimenting with cybernetic applications using Rakatan technology was one of those looking to harness the Star Forge’s immeasurable power. With the shipyard’s self-replicating properties, the Selkath theorized implementation of its parts could allow his test subjects to survive the grafting process, and to achieve virtual immortality. When the Order of Revan made a piece of the Star Forge available to him, the Selkath was able to prove his theories and the Infinite Army was born.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:Put another way, cybernetic enhancement and the Star Forge space station would be explaining completely different things. One attempts to explain why Malak has personal powers greater than Nadd or Kun, the other would attempt to explain why Malak possesses a foreign object with powers far greater than Nadd or Kun. That doesn't work. By definition of the phrase "too simple an explanation," both should be referring to the same thing. And we already know what that thing is because cybernetic enhancement is necessarily referring to personal powers. Whatever the alternative is also has to be referring to personal powers. The only alternative that works there is that cybernetic enhancement is too simple an explanation for his Star Forge-provided enhanced Force powers.

Except your problem is in the fact it is stated to be providing him with those powers. That's half the problem here, there's a definition here that you're refusing completely to recognise and it isn't going away because you don't find it defining. It is clear that the powers are being provides from a source. Something supported by the very "Enhanced Force Powers' section you use here.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:
All of the above is compounded by the statement from Bastila Shan that Revan can 'destroy' Malak on the Star Forge but still thinks that no one can stand against the power of the Star Forge itself, including Malak:

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

The full line is, "You are a pathetic fool, Revan! Together we could have defeated Malak and ruled over an Empire, but now I will be at Lord Malak's side instead! You will be crushed with the Republic and all the fools who bow down to the Jedi Council! No one can stand against the power of the Star Forge and the Sith fleet!" This is blatantly in reference to how Malak plans to use the Star Forge to create an infinite fleet of warships to steamroll the Republic. Malak never even planned to weaponize the Star Forge to attack the Jedi combatively. That's probably not even possible. It's not a Death Star.

The Star Forge and the Sith fleet are not one in the same. She clearly defines the Star Forge's Force power herself, yet she clearly has Revan incapable of standing against it despite believing Malak himself can be defeated by Revan.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:And all that segways into another issue with your whole proposal, albeit a harder one to explain. The Star Forge is a factory and a sentience that funnels power into Malak. It doesn't have a "power-level." It doesn't scale to others. It doesn't fight. And, if we were to characterize it as its own entity and throw it into versus debates, then we would figure it's demonstrably below Revan and Malak. They explicitly had to resist its attempts to drain Force them to active the station: "There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power." And Malak's not just activating the Forge--he's pushing it to three-hundred percent capacity and forging a bond with it--despite its active resistance.

So, if we really are going to think of it in those terms, then Malak "scales above the Star Forge" anyway. Whatever that means. Either way, he's more powerful than Kun.

No, just no. You're completely ignoring that the Star Forge itself grows more and more powerful itself until it devours its users. It very clearly has its own power as it feeds on greater and greater negative energy, this time of the Sith themselves, as it was doing to the Rakatans. They like Malak believed they could resist the effect but once it got to a certain point it turned. You're ignoring Bastila's statement that not even Revan believed he could control this effect and that its continued use would result in the destruction of the entire Sith Empire and eventually the end of the Force. This is very clear. There's a curve coming after Malak's death where it would've turned on and drained him.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Why? Because it is made absolutely clear that the Star Forge would eventually feed on and literally end the Force itself; with further implication that not even Revan can prevent this with his will: That's its potential, something a far more powerful (at least) incarnation of Vitiate than the one we all have over Malak, could never hope to achieve without a mega ritual to do so.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1289255181

That's it's potential, yes. And Nihilus' potential is also galaxy-consuming. That doesn't mean they have galaxy-consuming powers already though. Evidently they do not. The Star Forge can't even drain Malak yet. How's it draining the galaxy? Are you proposing the quote instead means, "Did cybernetic enhancement provide him with POTENTIAL powers far greater than Nadd or Kun, or was it too simple an explanation?"

Yeah, no, read the above. It is not merely potential. It was close to overpowering Revan, nevermind Malak, outright. You cannot reliably make estimations about how much power Malak is recieving and the point becomes irrelevant the moment you finally recognise that the source of power itself is far greater.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:*** READER PLEASE READ ****

Please do not mistake posting an argument against X as proof that X is actually disputable. My good friend LadyKulvax is, unfortunately, presenting an alternative explanation for what "powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd" means that is absolutely incompatible with all the surrounding context. It just doesn't work. It's like trying to fit a circle object through a square hold. You can keep on trying it--and maybe if you try it long enough then other people may think that, just maybe, a circle object CAN fit through a square hole-but, at the end of the day, it's just not possible. It doesn't work. Only a square object fits through a square hole.

Nice laughable attempt at handwaving my argument.
[quote="DarthAnt66"]---

OTHER STUFF

[2]It having the involvement of Leland Chee doesn't render it any less fallible at all. It's a C-canon statement vetted by LFL. Chee doesn't have some magic infallibility touch. It must stand up to scrutiny as much as anything else.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

Whatever Chee says is by definition not fallible, because he decides what is fallible and what isn't. He indeed has the magic infallibility touch.

That's an interesting interpretation, let's see if you continue to abide by it.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:
[3]The fun thing about this is that the big dog ancients are consistently top tier throughout all Star Wars mythos works. And unfortunately for you Nihilus' planet-killing is part of his technique which is literally taught to him by Kreia, who explains that the ancient Sith can all achieve this themselves.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

Kreia teaching Nihilus how to drain planets doesn't mean she can also drain planets.

Did you read this sentence before you posted it?

@DarthAnt66 wrote:Power Beyond Belief even explains it's not something Nihilus could teach to an apprentice and that its due to unique hunger and power--unique hunger and power that Kreia does not share.

Literally read the prior sentence you made.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:"Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice."

You mean despite Kreia literally saying the Sith apprentices are using the same technique as Nihilus, he's just taken it to its height?

@DarthAnt66 wrote:Besides, if Kreia could do it, then you would expect someone she describes as one the most powerful Force users ever, the heart of the Force, and the personification of power, and someone Avellone (referencing intent since you're referencing intent) says was "far" more powerful than Kreia and could even beat her and Meetra combined, could also replicate the feat.

Except that the technique itself is what is important, it doesn't matter how powerful the person is upon recieving it. That's what you're not getting. Also Avellone says that mental state and his ability to strategise could win Darth Revan a fight, he's not even saying it is due to raw power. Keeping in mind the context that Avellone isn't using our strict chronological order. He's using Revan as of KotOR II which for all he knew was dark side ending Revan. This is insanely unusable in a debate forum yet you insist on it.

But worse, if you want to appeal to Avellone's intent. He was literally going to have Nihilus wearing Revan's skull but decided against that to make it less morbid. The most potent supporting evidence remaining from that earlier iteration, in further cut-content when in Ludo Kressh's tomb you fight Revan's actual ghost but is explained as not being at his full strength as to why you defeat him easily, and you take Bastila's lightsaber as a prize after defeating him. The TSL Prima guide references all of this.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:How's this supposed to hurt Malak (who is far more powerful than the Revan that Kreia knows)?

Because you can't use Nihilus draining planets as a reason to dismiss ancient superiority over him when the technique he uses allows him to do so. He doesn't know how to until Kreia teaches him how to.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Meetra's opinion isn't nearly the same as Kreia's statements and you know it. Kreia's statements aren't just confirmed to be accurate as is the generic confirmation. Avellone has outright called her his in-universe mouthpiece and gives us an in-universe reason as to why she's right. She has the holocrons of Telos IV to provide her with a frame of reference.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin 1419419311

Meetra has first-hand and second-hand knowledge of both Revan and Nihilus. She fought alongside Revan across a mega war and constantly sensed and saw his power on display (though we know Revan hid "tremendous dark side power" from her, meaning he's way more powerful than she even believed). Meetra fought against Nihilus and had ten different characters explain to her everything about him, including how he consumed Katarr and his specific effects to the planet. When Meetra says Revan is more powerful than Nihilus, that claim absolutely is just as if not more reliable than Kreia's. So, if you're going to scale Nadd and Kun above Nihilus, scale Revan too.

Except Meetra literally contradicts herself, she doesn't believe it is possible to even have his magnitude of power despite having, as you've said, met Revan beforehand. Then actually meets a Nihilus who is starved and not at full power, and yet realises that Nihilus is far stronger than she'd believed was beyond the capability of anyone, despite having Revan as a frame of reference. If anything she's confirming that she has Nihilus a magnitude of power above Revan as of the battle of Malachor V. It's entirely possible for Meetra not to be referring to his raw power given the context surrounding what she is saying because otherwise she's straight up contradicting herself and becomes outright unreliable.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:FREEDON NADD.

I'll just bullet-point this, if you don't mind.


  • You have to actually prove Kreia's agreeing with the Mandalorian's whole paragraph. There's no indication of that. The claim that she specifically repeats after saying "yes" to is the claim that this is a dark side nexus and the Sith can exploit that. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.

Yeah, because this works. Not. What Kreia is saying is that he's correct. She then affirms the dark side is very strong in the tomb and that it'll strengthen the Sith. This is not limiting her affirmation, if she disagreed she would've said so. You've got it entirely backwards, the burden of proof is on you to prove that she isn't agreeing despite not saying a thing about the 75% of his statement that you apparently have issue with her agreeing to. She says he is correct, outright. Her following sentence isn't a limiting factor in her affirmation of his claim.

@DarthAnt66 wrote:
  • You have to actually prove "far worse" is referring to Force powers rather just the literal meaning of being far worse. Nadd is a "legendary tyrant" who subjugated his city by force and had criminals be eaten alive by wild animals. The burden of proof is on YOU. If you can't do this, your whole argument falls apart.

  • Yeah, if only the soldier wasn't literally explaining the power of the Force in the tomb you might have a point. And if the greater context of the quest wasn't literally a mission preventing the Sith from gaining Freedon Nadd's spectral power and his outright resurrection, that might work.

    @DarthAnt66 wrote:
    1.Killing Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat and destroying Malachor V.
    2.Being the literal prodigal knight among the Jedi even moreso than Kavar was who was famed for his combat prowess.
    3.Would be even more feared than Meetra was among the Mandalorians for her prowess on the battlefield.
    4.Is infamous for killing Yusanis in single-combat.
    5.Is famous for killing Malak and ending the Sith Empire

    • The above is a list of feats you compiled for Revan that the Mandalorians should know about when they never-say the stories indicate Nadd is far more powerful than him. Notice none of those feats remotely convey Revan's power besides (5), but no one would have an inkling of how powerful Malak is. Malak never ran around and telepathically subjugated planets for everyone to see. His power is revealed through far smaller scale but wildly impressive feats, such as activating and driving the Star Forge to new heights. If I were a Mandalorian and read those feats for Revan and then Nadd's feats, I would also say the stories might suggest Nadd is far more powerful. That doesn't mean it's true, though. They don't reveal the full extent of what Revan can do. 
    • I can go through it further, but those points are sufficient. And it doesn't matter. You're arguing a cut-content scene where a random Mandalorian maybe-possibly says Nadd is more powerful than Revan and Kreia maybe-possibly agrees is retconning the Malak quote. It doesn't. The Malak quote would take precedent notwithstanding all the issues with this quote, let alone with them. An in-universe character opinion like that can't override Chee and LFL, lol. 

    You're taking a quote that Herndon has himself indicated essentially lost its relevance due to no longer existing in original form and thus can be over-written by freaking game stats in more recent sources. But you're trying to undercut the relevance of this one due to cut-content? God damn.

    Except your claim is dependent on the idea that the soldier's view is limited to an extent and whilst this might be true. Kreia certainly isn't, she isn't depending her agreement on the public knowledge surrounding Revan when she says he is right. She is depending it on her own frames of reference for Revan's power.

    @DarthAnt66 wrote:
    [5]Absolutely nowhere? Did you actually read it?

    The most infamous graduate, however, is that of Exar Kun, trained by Vodo-Siosk Baas himself. Exar Kun was a Jedi Apprentice that turned away from the light side to embrace the seductive power of ancient Sith magic.Forty years ago he began a war upon the Republic that had grave consequences, but through great effort and sacrifice on the part of the Jedi he was defeated. The legacy of his taint is slowly passing away in the wake of the Mandalorian Wars and the coming of a new Sith threat.

    The quote is entirely about him, his power, defeating him specifically and his lasting taint slowly fading. But what's the greater context immediately preceding the statement that the Academy's most infamous graduate is Kun?

    The most notable feature of Dantooine is the Jedi academy, originally founded by Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas. For generations now it has served to train promising Jedi Padawans, with several dozen students in attendance at any given time.

    It's talking about Jedi, from the Dantooine Academy. He's most infamous for the powers he gained through Sith magic. But I was really hoping you'd bite, to be honest. Because there's another quote:

    So an academy dedicated to the Jedi with the greatest potential and is the source of some of the most powerful Force-users(guess who) has a 'pall' (infamy) cast on its legacy because of Exar Kun, Malak and Revan. Guess who is stated to be the most infamous graduate? The quote couldn't be more obviously talking about his power.

    Nowhere. Infamous means famous for being bad or famous for using your powers for bad. It's all about being bad. It's not about being famous for being powerful. That's just not what the word means. The fact they say Exar Kun embraced Sith magic and was defeated in battle, as you highlighted proof!!! it's referring to Force power, doesn't mean anything. Why would that mean "infamous" doesn't mean infamous anymore? The fact the Academy produces Force prodigies is likewise irrelevant. If you went to Harvard and then killed trillions  and someone labeled you "infamous," that doesn't mean you're infamous for being smart. You're infamous for killing trillions.

    This is a funny interpretation, so one of the most powerful Dark Lords ever wouldn't be infamous among the Order based on power alone?

    No Sith has generated as much curiosity, frustration, and fear among the Jedi as the Empire's dread ruler.

    The Jedi wouldn't literally use Exar Kun as an infamous tale of embracing the dark side for millennia? Because they did. In-fact, there's an entire in-universe text written about his fall to the dark side called Exar Kun: The Lesson, The Warning.

    The quote in question is quite literally from the perspective of the Jedi. He's infamous for his power, the war comes secondarily. The quote, again, is from the perspective of the Dantooine Academy and is limited to Jedi. This is reinforced by the codex. This could not possibly be clearer.

    @DarthAnt66 wrote:----
    CONCLUSION

    You have absolutely no grounds to say "infamous" or "worse" is interchangeable with "Force power" when you're arguing "powers" used in the context of cybernetic enhancement doesn't mean "Force power." Vote for Kun because he's infamous. Vote for the Outlander because he is canonically far more powerful than Kun. Your choice.

    Nah, without that quote. Your entire basis for argument falls apart and Kun's feats come into play, which frankly humiliate anyone in your scaling chain including the Outlander. Which I guess is a shame for you, because as you are already aware, Matt Martin who is currently Creative Executive of the Lucasfilm Story Group has stated in direct reply to the Malak article, that it's not canon in any continuity:

    ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Receiv10
    ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #13 - Vaylin Receiv11

    Shame I couldn't get this out sooner.
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