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The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 11th 2019, 4:41 am
How would you compare these feats in implied overall power?
Valkorion
Valkorion

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 11th 2019, 5:42 am
1.  Ziost - dominated people across whole planet, made massive death wave that went around whole planet, absorbed billions in massive force drain, left aftereffects on entire planet, done while weakened in like a day, truly planetary feat
2. Force storms - potent but not based on Sidious's power, limited radius of effect next to Ziost (would take weeks or more to cover planet), wasn't done first by Sidious, but still can destroy entire fleets
3. Byss - done over decades with help of adepts and propaganda posters
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 11th 2019, 5:58 am
@Valkorion wrote:1.  Ziost - dominated people across whole planet, made massive death wave that went around whole planet, absorbed billions in massive force drain, left aftereffects on entire planet, done while weakened in like a day, truly planetary feat
2. Force storms - potent but not based on Sidious's power, limited radius of effect next to Ziost (would take weeks or more to cover planet), wasn't done first by Sidious, but still can destroy entire fleets
3. Byss - done over decades with help of adepts and propaganda posters

Source for billions on Ziost?
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 11th 2019, 12:39 pm
I don't think you can tbh.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 9:04 am
Force Storms>>>>>>>>>>Byss>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Ziost
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 9:42 am
Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 9:59 am
Loled at Ziost being better than Byss.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 10:13 am
Propaganda + Decades with dark adepts vs. 30 seconds draining the whole planet as a weakened spirit without a ritual plus mentally dominating the entire population (likely billions).

Gee, difficult answer.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 10:22 am
Idrian, I wrote over 3000 words and present evidences towards Ziost and how false those claims are.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 10:26 am
Ziost is a ritual and it is confirmed by Charles Boyd, lead writer.

Vitiate did not drain the planet in 30 seconds.

Vitiate used Force Nexus of Ziost and distubances created by conflict to consume the planet with a ritual.

Only thing Vitiate did was TP'ing some civillians and making them slaughter each others.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 10:43 am
Quote?
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 10:46 am
Vitiate used Force Nexus of Ziost and distubances created by conflict to consume the planet with a ritual.

Except he was incredibly weakened and the nexus doesn't compensate. As for the disturbances he used them to grow strong enough to drain the planet, but was still incredibly weak relative to his normal self.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 12:11 pm
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 4:15 pm
There is no way to answer this question. Valkorion is pretty insightful though.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 4:56 pm
@HellfireUnit He says he'd say that he used a ritual to actually catch the spirits in order to consume them, not that he used a ritual to kill all life on the planet:

On Ziost his spirit controls beings and then uses to kill other beings then posses more, it's a cycle until I think it reaches a point where he's able to consume the planet.


Force ritual and the use of Zildrog aren't necessarily excluding one another. Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads. In the end, no matter said murdering means, that's not what will be remembered. People who are Force Sensitive can feel the death of a whole world through the Force... if someone siphon the energy of the population of an entire planet, someone is bound to feel it. The latter is much more troubling than the former, since there are a lot of way to effectively kill entire populations in the matter of seconds, while there isn't that much appearence of one being eating said population.

He also says that this is all conjecture based upon his own interpretations, so it's not confirmed nor is it the writing team's official stance on the matter. Regardless, even this indicates that he didn't use a ritual to actually kill all life on the planet.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 6:14 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:@HellfireUnit He says he'd say that he used a ritual to actually catch the spirits in order to consume them, not that he used a ritual to kill all life on the planet:

On Ziost his spirit controls beings and then uses to kill other beings then posses more, it's a cycle until I think it reaches a point where he's able to consume the planet.


Force ritual and the use of Zildrog aren't necessarily excluding one another. Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads. In the end, no matter said murdering means, that's not what will be remembered. People who are Force Sensitive can feel the death of a whole world through the Force... if someone siphon the energy of the population of an entire planet, someone is bound to feel it. The latter is much more troubling than the former, since there are a lot of way to effectively kill entire populations in the matter of seconds, while there isn't that much appearence of one being eating said population.

He also says that this is all conjecture based upon his own interpretations, so it's not confirmed nor is it the writing team's official stance on the matter. Regardless, even this indicates that he didn't use a ritual to actually kill all life on the planet.

Boyd confirms these statements, whether they are interpretations or not. He is the lead writer, his word is the law. Besides, there is no evidence that Vitiate has ever managed to wipe a planet with his own power or destroyed it without rituals. What makes you think he is capable of doing it this time? Only thing that is confirmed is Vitiate killing people by possessing them in small numbers and causing conflict around the globe. Also:

Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads.

Even if he manages to end the life, which he could not, he still needs a ritual. He only consumed the planet with a ritual that is fueled by disturbances and nexus of the planet Furthermore consuming means certain death. This doesn't mean he first killed than drain the planet.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 15th 2019, 7:27 pm
I don't think there's definitive evidence that the destructive component of Ziost was or wasn't a ritual. There's precedence for it being so though - not only from other planetary-esque rituals (and Vitiate's tendency to use rituals) but also from the fact that the galaxy consumption would've used a ritual for the destructive part as well (unless if you think Vitiate could just bust a galaxy on his raw power).
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 11:03 am
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Propaganda + Decades with dark adepts vs. 30 seconds draining the whole planet

The adepts didn't help him with his feat; they drained the populace alongside him - a small but crucial distinction. Regardless, the techniques employed are starkly different. Palpatine siphoned the passive life force of the people as they went about their daily lives while Vitiate absorbed whatever energies were released upon death, before unleashing a global dark side tsunami that forcibly ripped everyone's souls out. Not seeing how you can establish a comparison.

Also, it's possible Vitiate's death wave was strengthened as it claimed more lives, somewhat analogous to how Darth Bane used the souls he ripped out with his death field to maintain and bolster said death field. What I mean is that Vitiate's wave may only have extended to a few kilometers unaided, but because he got extra fuel along the way, he was able to increase its longevity, reach and possibly even potency. In fact, this could explain how the death wave went from maybe 50 m/s in the beginning to a respectable fraction of lightspeed later on. Of course, that's just a theory, but if I asked you, "What evidence is there that Vitiate's death wave could have reached the other side of the planet when he initially launched it if hypothetically there was no life to feed on?", could you provide sufficient proof? And for the record, I don't doubt peak Valkorion's ability to replicate the feat since he has already devoured all that energy; I'm doubting the iteration of Vitiate you're using here since you seem to make a big deal out of him being "a weakened spirit" at the time.

as a weakened spirit

And Sheev did Byss decades pre-prime with minimal exertion - in contrast to Vitiate devoting all his power into his feat - which means it represents an absolutely casual display of his power. Sheev maintained his feat from across the galaxy as well, while Vitiate was on the site of the incident the whole time.

without a ritual

The same can be said for Byss.

plus mentally dominating the entire population

swtor.com states Vitiate "gradually dominates the free will of everyone on Ziost" and the game itself shows there being autonomous people fleeing from Vitiate's goons near the end. I'd like an explicit statement that Vitiate at any point had the whole population under his dominion; the one from swtor.com doesn't count since it's referring to Theron and Lana's arrival on the planet, at which point he very clearly didn't have even the majority of the population under his control per the story itself. Not to mention that even if Vitiate did at some point dominate everyone, him starting a global war and his goal from the beginning being killing as many people as possible calls into question how many survivors were left for him to possess. It's safe to say he never at any point dominated the full population of Ziost as it was before his arrival there.

In contrast, the 19.7-billion-strong population of Byss was "almost mindless under the oppression of the Emperor's dark side influence" for years and decades on end. I'd need to see whatever propaganda quotes you're referring to to re-evaluate the feat beyond what Byss and the Deep Core says at face value.

(likely billions).

Source? Why is it likely? The capital city of Dromund Kaas only has millions of citizens, and the rest of the planet seems to be jungle. Ziost seems to be mostly frozen wastelands as well.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 11:05 am
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.

Storms are obviously better than Ziost since they are an expression of Palpatine's full potency, and he's more powerful than Vitiate. I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion though.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 11:23 am
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.

Storms are obviously better than Ziost since they are an expression of Palpatine's full potency, and he's more powerful than Vitiate. I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion though.
You're using your belief that Sidious>>>Valkorion to say Force storms>>Ziost instead of the other way around. At least this is the impression I get reading this. Either way there's no direct comparison so any belief in one being superior to another is done intuitively. And personally death waving an entire planet seems more impressive than creating a rip in the fabric of space that stretches only a few kilometers.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 1:05 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.

Storms are obviously better than Ziost since they are an expression of Palpatine's full potency, and he's more powerful than Vitiate. I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion though.
You're using your belief that Sidious>>>Valkorion to say Force storms>>Ziost instead of the other way around. At least this is the impression I get reading this. Either way there's no direct comparison so any belief in one being superior to another is done intuitively.

Yes, I believe Palpatine is more powerful than Valkorion, so him exerting himself to his fullest will create a more potent manifestation of the dark side in the form of Force storms than whatever Valkorion could conjure.

And there is a comparison to be made between the two. I wouldn't claim one is superior to the other otherwise.

And personally death waving an entire planet seems more impressive than creating a rip in the fabric of space that stretches only a few kilometers.

By that logic, Sheev's galaxy-wide clouding of the Jedi Order, unbalancing of the Force, and controlling of the Galactic Empire are better than Ziost since they are done on a larger scale than one planet.

And you're neglecting that the storms could tear apart the Eclipse, which per my (admittedly years-old) calculations requires enough energy to rip off the surfaces of planets; incidentally, the Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions Force storms can do just that. It's not just about scale: how much energy is condensed into the attack also matters.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 1:18 pm
Azronger wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.

Storms are obviously better than Ziost since they are an expression of Palpatine's full potency, and he's more powerful than Vitiate. I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion though.
You're using your belief that Sidious>>>Valkorion to say Force storms>>Ziost instead of the other way around. At least this is the impression I get reading this. Either way there's no direct comparison so any belief in one being superior to another is done intuitively.

Yes, I believe Palpatine is more powerful than Valkorion, so him exerting himself to his fullest will create a more potent manifestation of the dark side in the form of Force storms than whatever Valkorion could conjure.

And there is a comparison to be made between the two. I wouldn't claim one is superior to the other otherwise.

And personally death waving an entire planet seems more impressive than creating a rip in the fabric of space that stretches only a few kilometers.

By that logic, Sheev's galaxy-wide clouding of the Jedi Order, unbalancing of the Force, and controlling of the Galactic Empire are better than Ziost since they are done on a larger scale than one planet.

And you're neglecting that the storms could tear apart the Eclipse, which per my (admittedly years-old) calculations requires enough energy to rip off the surfaces of planets; incidentally, the Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions Force storms can do just that. It's not just about scale: how much energy is condensed into the attack also matters.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that  Palpatine was only responsible for opening the wormhole, not the destruction it caused. So whether the eclipse could be destroyed by the force storm is irrelevant in comparing it to Ziost since the destruction was not derived from Sheev's power.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 1:42 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Ziost>>>>>>>>>>Storms>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Byes.

Storms are obviously better than Ziost since they are an expression of Palpatine's full potency, and he's more powerful than Vitiate. I'm curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion though.
You're using your belief that Sidious>>>Valkorion to say Force storms>>Ziost instead of the other way around. At least this is the impression I get reading this. Either way there's no direct comparison so any belief in one being superior to another is done intuitively.

Yes, I believe Palpatine is more powerful than Valkorion, so him exerting himself to his fullest will create a more potent manifestation of the dark side in the form of Force storms than whatever Valkorion could conjure.

And there is a comparison to be made between the two. I wouldn't claim one is superior to the other otherwise.

And personally death waving an entire planet seems more impressive than creating a rip in the fabric of space that stretches only a few kilometers.

By that logic, Sheev's galaxy-wide clouding of the Jedi Order, unbalancing of the Force, and controlling of the Galactic Empire are better than Ziost since they are done on a larger scale than one planet.

And you're neglecting that the storms could tear apart the Eclipse, which per my (admittedly years-old) calculations requires enough energy to rip off the surfaces of planets; incidentally, the Dark Empire Sourcebook mentions Force storms can do just that. It's not just about scale: how much energy is condensed into the attack also matters.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I thought that  Palpatine was only responsible for opening the wormhole, not the destruction it caused. So whether the eclipse could be destroyed by the force storm is irrelevant in comparing it to Ziost since the destruction was not derived from Sheev's power.

The destruction caused by the storm is Sheev's power.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 3:45 pm
Azronger wrote:The destruction caused by the storm is Sheev's power.

Sources note that the force storm is released when Palpatine tears open space-time to create a hyperspace wormhole, which suggests that it's either some reaction of the wormhole opening or energy coming out of hyperspace. In either case, it's likely not directly proportional to Sidious's power (or else he wouldn't need to release it from a specific kind of wormhole).
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 20th 2019, 8:48 pm
This tangent is pointless since all Force powers ultimately derive from an external source (the Force itself) and none of the power wielded by these characters is inherent to their being. Whether or not Sidious could manifest the same destructive potency in another technique is also irrelevant, since individual Force manifestations seem to have particular form and function. In other words, Valkorion can raze a planet with a so-called "death field," but there's no evidence or reason to suggest he could do it with base TK. Excerpts from The Dark Empire Sourcebook and Book of Sith compare the creation of a Force storm to the internal process Sidious uses to summon a power as mundane as Force lightning, it's simply a difference of scale.

At the end of the day, what's important is whether Sidious is able to create and control Force storms in virtually any setting and context; indeed, he is. Multiple sources from A Guide to the Star Wars Universe to The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to The Dark Empire Handbook to The Essential Guide to the Force attribute to the Emperor the power to create and control Force storms at will.
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Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

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