Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 23rd 2019, 7:46 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:To Elms Point: I would also cite the worms from Supernatural Encounters which engage in the same casual effect as Palpatine and initiate the same result.

Is Supernatural Encounters Legends? And if so, what relevance do the worms you refer to have with regards to this topic?

@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Do you think if any regular old joe tore through space-time a force storm would be generated?

Evidently not, as we see in The Phantom Affair: a hyperspace wormhole in that story doesn't spawn an energy storm.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 23rd 2019, 8:09 pm
Is Supernatural Encounters Legends? And if so, what relevance do the worms you refer to have with regards to this topic?

Apparently it's been licensed since 2009.  

An array of impossibly long and jointed insectoid legs wrapped itself around the port side of the Explorer, halting its movement mid-flight. Mercifully, at the same time, a burning missile flashed across the creature’s femurs and tibias, causing it to loosen its grasp. I slipped around, unfortunately right into the path of a giant exogorth which slammed headlong into our aft section.

“Our shields are gone after only one hit!” I howled. The diminutive robot didn’t respond, having begun communicating with the ship and performing a series of technical manipulations, which included plugging Areana’s head into a coiled cable that he fiercely ripped from the bulkhead. Praying he knew what he was doing, I maneuvered the corvette back on its heading, weaving in and out of a ferocity of deadly tentacles, hurtling fireballs and long-dead ships.

“Don’t look now,” I warned. Just then, the swirling mass of the wormhole appeared before us like the black storm of a raging god, annihilating all in its path.

“Head into the mouth of the tunnel,” the droid urged.

“Are you sure?! I thought you said it was a one-way tunnel!”


 


The worms eat, as in make holes...” I crowed. “Wormholes! So, this has to be a two-way tunnel!”

  


The worms eat through time and space…” Cue-nyne repeated.


Care to remind me of Phantom Affair. 


The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 24th 2019, 1:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Azronger wrote:Yes, I’m familiar with the sources, but I’d like you to post them anyway for quick reference in this thread.

But no, I’m not disputing the idea the energies are released in tandem with the creation of a hyperspace wormhole. I’m disputing the idea the energies originate from hyperspace, which they do not - they originate from Sidious; they are his dark side power as many disparate sources explicitly note.

The most unambiguous quote is:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 2019-09-23

The wormholes create the storms. To the extent that Palpatine creates the storms, it's via wormholes as an intermediary.

And if all the quotes said “Sidious created the dark side energy,” you might have a point, but they don’t say that. The quotes say ”his own cataclysmic dark side energy,” “his own dark power,” and ”his dark side power,” respectively. Ergo, the energy of the Force storm is Sidious’ own, personal dark side energy and originates from his being as much as any Force ability comes from the user.

"Come witness Da Vinci's genius" in the form of a painting implies that the painting literally has Da Vinci's brain?

The most straightforward interpretation would indeed be that Palpatine creates (to the extent that any Force technique could "create") the energies - if it weren't for the explicit quotes to the contrary. In that case, the more specific explanations of mechanisms beat more colloquial language about Palpatine's power.

No, you haven’t done that. What you’ve done is misread Gideon’s evidence and my words. I never said your sources are false. All I’ve argued is that Gideon’s sources vindicate his and my views on the storm, and I provided two sources of my own to back it up further. You haven’t addressed them properly, much less created “a rationalization” between anything.

I am just applying language conventions that are ubiquitous across dialects, with the understanding that some statements are more precise than others, and a source that quite clearly says that the wormhole creates the storm.

Palpatine says that “the channeled anger of the dark side” “can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the ‘vital gate.’” The word “gate” denotes a passageway or a portal of sorts.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Force_12

He explains that “When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm” and that “Anger is the most potent catalyst to this kind of power.” So when anger is focused in the vital centers of the being, the power of the Force roils with the power of a storm, and this energy is released through a portal as Palpatine himself states: “Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the dark side of the Force.” I believe this “portal” is the same “vital gate” at which the dark side anger can be released that Palpatine mentioned in Book of Sith; he also mentioned that its location is near the heart, so it seems this portal through which his power is funneled through is within the body.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Essent10

The same information is repeated; however, Palpatine clarifies that “Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released [...] With these energies, I have slain my enemies from across the empty reaches of space. I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.” This makes it clear - if it wasn’t already - that the energies he unleashes are of his own power: lightning is clearly not some weird, inherent property of hyperspace.

It says that this portal (which you say is within his body) lets him shatter the fabric of space. It is therefore talking about the creation of the wormhole - which is indeed of Sidious's direct doing - and not the storm, since we have a source that says the wormhole causes the storm.

In this way, I have created storms.

Right. So the order of causation is: portal w/Sidious's energy -> shatter space (wormhole) -> storms. My source doesn't say that the wormhole is just an outlet or passage chamber - it produces the storms. The storms themselves can be compared to exothermic chemical reactions - you are not actually directly supplying the of the energy that is produced from it.

P.S. an unrelated hyperspace wormhole not producing a storm wouldn't contradict this because 1) my quote could be referring to particular wormholes, perhaps ones created in Force techniques, but that doesn't change the fact that the wormhole is directly doing the production, and 2) Sidious can control the storms once they are produced, so he could easily be bringing them out of the wormhole whereas they'd otherwise lie inside.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 24th 2019, 1:29 am
@LOTL wrote:It is not the case that the energies are released "only" because the wormhole opens because if that were the case then, theoretically your point would be that given the ability to open such a wormhole by any random technique, you would get the same destructive power that Palpatine manages to obtain. Something that is not really correct

See the bottom part of my reply to Az above.

This also explains the quote very well. Note that Palpatine is consumed by his own "dark energies" hence by your interpretation of the quote, the energies in hyperspace are inherently dark? Pretty sure that is a nonsensical notion.

It's very possible that Palpatine is tainting/shaping it. Where do Sith Lords draw from for Force lightning? Is there some separate dark side energy field or do they shape it into dark side energies? We don't really know.

Palpatine himself generating the storm would contradict the quote provided above specifying that the wormhole creates the storm. Even if we get around that, given that the storm "emerges" from the wormhole, is Palpatine creating these storms in another dimension and then transporting them to realspace? Why can't he just generate them somewhere in space without the wormhole? If it's about not channeling it through his body, why is channeling it through a wormhole different from channeling it through a star destroyer?
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 24th 2019, 10:37 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
Azronger wrote:Yes, I’m familiar with the sources, but I’d like you to post them anyway for quick reference in this thread.

But no, I’m not disputing the idea the energies are released in tandem with the creation of a hyperspace wormhole. I’m disputing the idea the energies originate from hyperspace, which they do not - they originate from Sidious; they are his dark side power as many disparate sources explicitly note.

The most unambiguous quote is:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 2019-09-23

The wormholes create the storms. To the extent that Palpatine creates the storms, it's via wormholes as an intermediary.

And if all the quotes said “Sidious created the dark side energy,” you might have a point, but they don’t say that. The quotes say ”his own cataclysmic dark side energy,” “his own dark power,” and ”his dark side power,” respectively. Ergo, the energy of the Force storm is Sidious’ own, personal dark side energy and originates from his being as much as any Force ability comes from the user.

"Come witness Da Vinci's genius" in the form of a painting implies that the painting literally has Da Vinci's brain?

The most straightforward interpretation would indeed be that Palpatine creates (to the extent that any Force technique could "create") the energies - if it weren't for the explicit quotes to the contrary. In that case, the more specific explanations of mechanisms beat more colloquial language about Palpatine's power.

No, you haven’t done that. What you’ve done is misread Gideon’s evidence and my words. I never said your sources are false. All I’ve argued is that Gideon’s sources vindicate his and my views on the storm, and I provided two sources of my own to back it up further. You haven’t addressed them properly, much less created “a rationalization” between anything.

I am just applying language conventions that are ubiquitous across dialects, with the understanding that some statements are more precise than others, and a source that quite clearly says that the wormhole creates the storm.

Palpatine says that “the channeled anger of the dark side” “can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the ‘vital gate.’” The word “gate” denotes a passageway or a portal of sorts.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Force_12

He explains that “When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm” and that “Anger is the most potent catalyst to this kind of power.” So when anger is focused in the vital centers of the being, the power of the Force roils with the power of a storm, and this energy is released through a portal as Palpatine himself states: “Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the dark side of the Force.” I believe this “portal” is the same “vital gate” at which the dark side anger can be released that Palpatine mentioned in Book of Sith; he also mentioned that its location is near the heart, so it seems this portal through which his power is funneled through is within the body.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Essent10

The same information is repeated; however, Palpatine clarifies that “Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released [...] With these energies, I have slain my enemies from across the empty reaches of space. I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.” This makes it clear - if it wasn’t already - that the energies he unleashes are of his own power: lightning is clearly not some weird, inherent property of hyperspace.

It says that this portal (which you say is within his body) lets him shatter the fabric of space. It is therefore talking about the creation of the wormhole - which is indeed of Sidious's direct doing - and not the storm, since we have a source that says the wormhole causes the storm.

In this way, I have created storms.

Right. So the order of causation is: portal w/Sidious's energy -> shatter space (wormhole) -> storms. My source doesn't say that the wormhole is just an outlet or passage chamber - it produces the storms. The storms themselves can be compared to exothermic chemical reactions - you are not actually directly supplying the of the energy that is produced from it.

P.S. an unrelated hyperspace wormhole not producing a storm wouldn't contradict this because 1) my quote could be referring to particular wormholes, perhaps ones created in Force techniques, but that doesn't change the fact that the wormhole is directly doing the production, and 2) Sidious can control the storms once they are produced, so he could easily be bringing them out of the wormhole whereas they'd otherwise lie inside.
 

Elm ragdolling!

Nah but in all seriousness, I am glad these arguments are being distributed to the wider forum.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 2:07 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@DarthSkywalker0

Apparently it's been licensed since 2009.

According to Bongiorno himself, the one up online is a rewrite of the draft he submitted to Hidalgo back in the day. That draft may have been licensed, but I’m not convinced the newer version is canon.

Anyway, I’m still as clueless as I was before. Explain how that excerpt is relevant here.

Care to remind me of Phantom Affair.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Phanto10

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Phanto11

We see a hyperspace wormhole depicted onscreen and it doesn’t generate a Force storm. And yes, this is a hyperspace wormhole, as confirmed by The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: it has a picture taken directly from the comic with a caption saying ”Hyperspace wormhole.”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Tcswe_10

@The Ellimist

The most unambiguous quote is:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 2019-09-23

The wormholes create the storms. To the extent that Palpatine creates the storms, it's via wormholes as an intermediary.

"Come witness Da Vinci's genius" in the form of a painting implies that the painting literally has Da Vinci's brain?

The most straightforward interpretation would indeed be that Palpatine creates (to the extent that any Force technique could "create") the energies - if it weren't for the explicit quotes to the contrary. In that case, the more specific explanations of mechanisms beat more colloquial language about Palpatine's power.

I am just applying language conventions that are ubiquitous across dialects, with the understanding that some statements are more precise than others, and a source that quite clearly says that the wormhole creates the storm.

So you admit the straightforward interpretation of Gideon’s evidence is mine? In that case, why should your one quote be taken at face value to override the litany of evidence that, per your own admission, if taken at face value, favors my interpretation? Why should we interpret Gideon’s sources metonymically and yours literally? Why can’t that standard be applied the other way around? Your own evidence is hardly unambiguous; it’s just as natural to say “the mail carrier produced a letter from his pocket” as ”These wormholes produced vast amounts of energy in the form of violent storms” without it meaning the courier wrote the letter himself much as the energy coming out of the wormhole doesn’t have to originate from it. There are plenty of statements saying Palpatine ”created,” “generated” or “spawned” the storm and the energies on top of the ones Gideon has provided, and I’ve also assembled an elaborate theory on the Force storm that ties everything together and answers the most pertinent questions.

”a Force storm generated by the Emperor”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Genera11

”through a simple act of Will, I can generate Force Storms”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Essent10

”Emperor Palpatine began generating devastating Force storms”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Genera10

”his dark side power”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Fact_f10

”the Emperor fell victim to his own cataclysmic dark side energy”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 De_2_o12

”the Emperor’s power was vast, and once again, he unleashed an energy storm, spawned by dark side anger [...] Palpatine was consumed by his own dark power”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Force_11

”the malevolent energies he had spawned”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Malevo10

”Emperor Palpatine’s clone discovered how to create and control these storms”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Hypers10

”the reborn clone Emperor was able to create and control Force storms at will”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Create10

”He’s creating another Force storm”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Force_13

”He’s created another energy storm”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5wwQAVR6k&t=146m40s

”Now you will experience my full potency… I live as energy… I am the dark side!”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Full_p10

”the untrammeled power of the most sinister agent of the Dark Side [...] the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space”

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Untram10

In opposition to all that, you have exactly one statement that can reasonably be interpreted to mean the Force storm doesn’t originate from the wormhole. What’s more, you have said this quote is your strongest piece of evidence, meaning whatever else you have is even flimsier. So why should we favor your version of things, backed up by one statement, over mine, backed up by 13 statements (and six more if we include what I’ve provided for my theory and the quotes below, so totalling 19 statements)?

It says that this portal (which you say is within his body) lets him shatter the fabric of space. It is therefore talking about the creation of the wormhole - which is indeed of Sidious's direct doing - and not the storm, since we have a source that says the wormhole causes the storm.

Right. So the order of causation is: portal w/Sidious's energy -> shatter space (wormhole) -> storms. My source doesn't say that the wormhole is just an outlet or passage chamber - it produces the storms. The storms themselves can be compared to exothermic chemical reactions - you are not actually directly supplying the of the energy that is produced from it.

Yes, it lets Palpatine rend space to form a hyperspace wormhole. That doesn’t change the fact that the power of the Force storm that he funnels through said tear in space-time is expressly his own, like with any Force technique, such as the Force maelstrom, of which the Force storm is an evolution. Your one, lone, equivocal quote doesn’t disprove any of this.

P.S. an unrelated hyperspace wormhole not producing a storm wouldn't contradict this because 1) my quote could be referring to particular wormholes, perhaps ones created in Force techniques, but that doesn't change the fact that the wormhole is directly doing the production, and 2) Sidious can control the storms once they are produced, so he could easily be bringing them out of the wormhole whereas they'd otherwise lie inside.

Your quote talks about hyperspace wormholes in general and states they are natural phenomena and that disturbances in the Force can sometimes cause a wormhole, which debunks your first objection that it’s only referring to specific wormholes created by Force techniques. And what your quote states about wormholes is the opposite of what’s said about Force storms:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Natura10

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Laws_o10

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Laws_o11

If Force storms ”violate the laws of nature” they certainly don’t spring into existence by natural means, so that debunks your second objection, that the Force storm is already inside the wormhole and Palpatine just pulls it out, too. What we’re left with is the conclusion posited by my theory: the Force storm originates from within Palpatine’s being - the energies are all his own, personal dark side energy - and he simply funnels it through a portal within his body, the other end of which is the hyperspace wormhole from which the storm finally emerges.

In summary, I have...

  1. Provided an example of a hyperspace wormhole which did not spawn a Force storm; proven Force storms in general don’t arise from nature; and that the Emperor’s Force storm at Da Soocha V didn’t arise from nature.
  2. Compiled a list of 13 quotes that unanimously state the Force storm is Palpatine’s own, personal dark side energy and power; that he generated, created, and spawned the Force storm and its energies; and that liken his very existence and state of being with that of the Force storm.
  3. Created a theory which explains how the Emperor manifests the Force storm through a hyperspace wormhole in a way in which the Force storm remains entirely his own, personal dark side energy; and explains why he needs a wormhole to express his full potency and manifest the Force storm.

...and you have provided exactly one statement about how the hyperspace wormhole produces the energy of the Force storm, but the literal interpretation of that is debunked by the first point, and another, reasonable interpretation, that the Force storm is indirectly produced by the storm when Palpatine funnels his power through it, aligns perfectly with the second and third points.

PS: you ignored the point about the full potency and the Kas’im analogy, so is that a concession regarding those?


Last edited by Azronger on September 26th 2019, 11:21 am; edited 1 time in total
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 2:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:
Azronger wrote:Yes, I’m familiar with the sources, but I’d like you to post them anyway for quick reference in this thread.

But no, I’m not disputing the idea the energies are released in tandem with the creation of a hyperspace wormhole. I’m disputing the idea the energies originate from hyperspace, which they do not - they originate from Sidious; they are his dark side power as many disparate sources explicitly note.

The most unambiguous quote is:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 2019-09-23

The wormholes create the storms. To the extent that Palpatine creates the storms, it's via wormholes as an intermediary.

And if all the quotes said “Sidious created the dark side energy,” you might have a point, but they don’t say that. The quotes say ”his own cataclysmic dark side energy,” “his own dark power,” and ”his dark side power,” respectively. Ergo, the energy of the Force storm is Sidious’ own, personal dark side energy and originates from his being as much as any Force ability comes from the user.

"Come witness Da Vinci's genius" in the form of a painting implies that the painting literally has Da Vinci's brain?

The most straightforward interpretation would indeed be that Palpatine creates (to the extent that any Force technique could "create") the energies - if it weren't for the explicit quotes to the contrary. In that case, the more specific explanations of mechanisms beat more colloquial language about Palpatine's power.

No, you haven’t done that. What you’ve done is misread Gideon’s evidence and my words. I never said your sources are false. All I’ve argued is that Gideon’s sources vindicate his and my views on the storm, and I provided two sources of my own to back it up further. You haven’t addressed them properly, much less created “a rationalization” between anything.

I am just applying language conventions that are ubiquitous across dialects, with the understanding that some statements are more precise than others, and a source that quite clearly says that the wormhole creates the storm.

Palpatine says that “the channeled anger of the dark side” “can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the ‘vital gate.’” The word “gate” denotes a passageway or a portal of sorts.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Force_12

He explains that “When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm” and that “Anger is the most potent catalyst to this kind of power.” So when anger is focused in the vital centers of the being, the power of the Force roils with the power of a storm, and this energy is released through a portal as Palpatine himself states: “Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the dark side of the Force.” I believe this “portal” is the same “vital gate” at which the dark side anger can be released that Palpatine mentioned in Book of Sith; he also mentioned that its location is near the heart, so it seems this portal through which his power is funneled through is within the body.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Essent10

The same information is repeated; however, Palpatine clarifies that “Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released [...] With these energies, I have slain my enemies from across the empty reaches of space. I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.” This makes it clear - if it wasn’t already - that the energies he unleashes are of his own power: lightning is clearly not some weird, inherent property of hyperspace.

It says that this portal (which you say is within his body) lets him shatter the fabric of space. It is therefore talking about the creation of the wormhole - which is indeed of Sidious's direct doing - and not the storm, since we have a source that says the wormhole causes the storm.

In this way, I have created storms.

Right. So the order of causation is: portal w/Sidious's energy -> shatter space (wormhole) -> storms. My source doesn't say that the wormhole is just an outlet or passage chamber - it produces the storms. The storms themselves can be compared to exothermic chemical reactions - you are not actually directly supplying the of the energy that is produced from it.

P.S. an unrelated hyperspace wormhole not producing a storm wouldn't contradict this because 1) my quote could be referring to particular wormholes, perhaps ones created in Force techniques, but that doesn't change the fact that the wormhole is directly doing the production, and 2) Sidious can control the storms once they are produced, so he could easily be bringing them out of the wormhole whereas they'd otherwise lie inside.
 

Elm ragdolling!

Nah but in all seriousness, I am glad these arguments are being distributed to the wider forum.

Seems like Az is ragdolling. But I’m with you, it’s been a nice formal exercise.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 3:20 pm
Good post Az.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 4:28 pm
In my opinion at least, I hold Ziost as the best, followed by Storms, and then by Byss, which when compared to the two wasn't that incredible considering that it took 20 years with the help of Dark Acolytes, and he used Propaganda, etc.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 6:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
IdrisianGraecus wrote:In my opinion at least, I hold Ziost as the best, followed by Storms, and then by Byss, which when compared to the two wasn't that incredible considering that it took 20 years with the help of Dark Acolytes, and he used Propaganda, etc.

If you missed it, @Azronger refuted this notion back on page 1. 

If you're trolling, my apologies and carry on.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 6:41 pm
(Posting this as a reminder to myself to respond to some of Azronger's Byss points if I see this again later in the week.)
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 7:00 pm
He refuted my points, I’m trolling, yeah.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on September 25th 2019, 8:10 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Azronger wrote:So you admit the straightforward interpretation of Gideon’s evidence is mine?

Not exactly. It's the straightforward interpretation in the hypothetical world where no other information existed. Not just the quote I provided - the other quotes you say you know about. You could say the same thing about the Earth being flat.

In that case, why should your one quote be taken at face value

So to be clear - contrary to your claim that I was misinterpreting your position, you do think my quote is false?

to override the litany of evidence that, per your own admission, if taken at face value, favors my interpretation?

Because the use of an incredibly common  subject-verb convention isn't a particularly large or even noticeable leap compared to outright dismissing a source and then positing the rather convoluted rationalization of the other sources saying that they come in tandem by saying that Sidious creates both at the same time (???) despite the obvious implication that they're causally linked. And then we also have the worms in SE creating Force storms.

Why should we interpret Gideon’s sources metonymically and yours literally? Why can’t that standard be applied the other way around? Your own evidence is hardly unambiguous; it’s just as natural to say “the mail carrier produced a letter from his pocket” as ”These wormholes produced vast amounts of energy in the form of violent storms” without it meaning the courier wrote the letter himself much as the energy coming out of the wormhole doesn’t have to originate from it. There are plenty of statements saying Palpatine ”created,” “generated” or “spawned” the storm and the energies on top of the ones Gideon has provided, and I’ve also assembled an elaborate theory on the Force storm that ties everything together and answers the most pertinent questions.

Because the definition was of hyperspace wormholes in general, not of wormholes produced by Palpatine's Force storms? It then mentions the latter as an example of that. It's pretty much a smoking gun. Let me repost it:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 2019-09-23

THESE WORMHOLES PRODUCED VAST AMOUNTS OF ENERGY IN THE FORM OF VIOLENT STORMS.

I've already addressed the quotes that you posted. And I made criticisms of your theory that have gone unaddressed - though it seems like my quote debunks it on its own anyway.

”Now you will experience my full potency… I live as energy… I am the dark side!”

Palpatine's taunts in the middle of a fight?

”the untrammeled power of the most sinister agent of the Dark Side [...] the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space”

Palpatine himself is a nexus, and he tears open space (that part is done by him directly).

In opposition to all that, you have exactly one statement that can reasonably be interpreted to mean the Force storm doesn’t originate from the wormhole.

The storm originates from the wormhole - that's the point.

What’s more, you have said this quote is your strongest piece of evidence, meaning whatever else you have is even flimsier. So why should we favor your version of things, backed up by one statement, over mine, backed up by 13 statements (and six more if we include what I’ve provided for my theory and the quotes below, so totalling 19 statements)?

Because none of your 19 statements actually contradict my quote. You would have a point if the proposed language convention were something rare or awkward, but it's actually used pretty ubiquitously in literature and everyday speech - in fact, the very source that I quoted goes on to refer to wormholes and storms interchangeably.

Your quote talks about hyperspace wormholes in general and states they are natural phenomena and that disturbances in the Force can sometimes cause a wormhole, which debunks your first objection that it’s only referring to specific wormholes created by Force techniques.

You are correct. It also debunks your claim that this could just be a figurative the other way for Palpatine's technique, unless if all wormholes were produced in tandem with Force storms...which would debunk your entire argument.

And what your quote states about wormholes is the opposite of what’s said about Force storms:

If Force storms ”violate the laws of nature” they certainly don’t spring into existence by natural means,

Huh? Force storms absolutely violate the laws of nature given that Palpatine can control and direct them without any strict adherence to laws of momentum, inertia, etc. They also arise from disturbances in the Force, as my quote notes, which the laws of nature otherwise wouldn't predict. That hardly contradicts the question of where the energy came from. Once again, this is an easily rationalized quote that hardly compares to explicit detail about its mechanism.

PS: you ignored the point about the full potency and the Kas’im analogy, so is that a concession regarding those?

No. By that same logic we can easily say that Palpatine's power is referring to his ability to rip over a tear in spacetime and control a Force storm, akin to the Da Vinci analogy and various other elaborations that got no response.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

on October 10th 2019, 4:56 pm
^ that aside, I think you can argue that Force storms are more impressive than Byss because it took Palpatine longer to figure out the former than the latter, even though he put considerable effort into them. It's possible that he prioritized Byss due to its urgency in restoring his health, but that's still a large gap in how long it took for both.
Sponsored content

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 3 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum