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The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 21st 2019, 4:12 am
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:This tangent is pointless since all Force powers ultimately derive from an external source (the Force itself) and none of the power wielded by these characters is inherent to their being. Whether or not Sidious could manifest the same destructive potency in another technique is also irrelevant, since individual Force manifestations seem to have particular form and function. In other words, Valkorion can raze a planet with a so-called "death field," but there's no evidence or reason to suggest he could do it with base TK. Excerpts from The Dark Empire Sourcebook and Book of Sith compare the creation of a Force storm to the internal process Sidious uses to summon a power as mundane as Force lightning, it's simply a difference of scale.

At the end of the day, what's important is whether Sidious is able to create and control Force storms in virtually any setting and context; indeed, he is. Multiple sources from A Guide to the Star Wars Universe to The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to The Dark Empire Handbook to The Essential Guide to the Force attribute to the Emperor the power to create and control Force storms at will.

Well, the OP is about the feats' correlation with overall power, and so how disproportionate the techniques are is critical here. TK is evidently far less disproportionate than Force storms, so a feat where someone replicated Force storms using raw TK would be a much stronger indicator of overall power, if not mastery. I think the case can be made that Force drain and telepathy are less disproportionate than Force storms, at least when not ritualistic (I think Ziost's may have been ritualistic).
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 21st 2019, 4:20 am
Nah, a Force storm is the most undiluted manifestation of Palpatine's power. It's the only way he can express his full potency. The reason he needs to funnel it through a wormhole is because he can't channel it through his body lest he crumble to dust. He's so powerful his own body can't take it - this is a deeply-entrenched fact in the lore.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 21st 2019, 4:23 am
Azronger wrote:Nah, a Force storm is the most undiluted manifestation of Palpatine's power. It's the only way he can express his full potency. The reason he needs to funnel it through a wormhole is because he can't channel it through his body lest he crumble to dust - this is a deeply-entrenched fact in the lore.

What do you mean by "funnel it through a wormhole"? Why can't he just funnel it through, say, the New Republic fleet directly? Could he do that?

What about the sources that note the creation of wormholes "releases" energies from hyperspace (or, some say "the dark side of the Force")?
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 21st 2019, 10:32 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:This tangent is pointless since all Force powers ultimately derive from an external source (the Force itself) and none of the power wielded by these characters is inherent to their being. Whether or not Sidious could manifest the same destructive potency in another technique is also irrelevant, since individual Force manifestations seem to have particular form and function. In other words, Valkorion can raze a planet with a so-called "death field," but there's no evidence or reason to suggest he could do it with base TK. Excerpts from The Dark Empire Sourcebook and Book of Sith compare the creation of a Force storm to the internal process Sidious uses to summon a power as mundane as Force lightning, it's simply a difference of scale.

At the end of the day, what's important is whether Sidious is able to create and control Force storms in virtually any setting and context; indeed, he is. Multiple sources from A Guide to the Star Wars Universe to The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia to The Dark Empire Handbook to The Essential Guide to the Force attribute to the Emperor the power to create and control Force storms at will.

Well, the OP is about the feats' correlation with overall power, and so how disproportionate the techniques are is critical here. TK is evidently far less disproportionate than Force storms, so a feat where someone replicated Force storms using raw TK would be a much stronger indicator of overall power, if not mastery. I think the case can be made that Force drain and telepathy are less disproportionate than Force storms, at least when not ritualistic (I think Ziost's may have been ritualistic).

Granting the premise here, then the scale and potency of the feat in question has to be considered. Let's say a TK feat is more "proportionate" to the user's power than a Force storm feat. I wouldn't then say that Anakin levitating the shuura fruit in AOTC is more impressive or implies greater power than Sheev's ability to create Force storms even though (under your premise) Anakin's TK feat is more "proportionate" to his "power" than Force storms may be to Sidious's.

Virtually all Legends references to Force storms go out of their way to emphasize their potency and difficulty. Indeed, multiple sources even attribute the storms themselves with Sidious's "vast power." As I've said before, I think what's being offered by this tangent is a distinction without difference. Sidious's ability to create and control Force storms is always attributed to his immense mastery and power and he's able to create them in any context without any preparation.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 4:51 am
I think the part of the Force Storms that are more proportionate to Sidious's raw power is when he actually rips open space-time.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 8:50 am
Ziost is better because it's done whilst in a spiritual form and it's not just a planetary drain feat, it's a far more destructive attack than that. New Adasta was the stated ground zero of an attack that ripped fissures into the surface of the entire planet, caused perpetual earthquakes to circle the entire planet and caused a massive shift in the magnetic field of the entire orbit of the planet which indicates that it effected the very core of Ziost. All in less than 30 seconds.

The effect was from orbit to the core. That's magnitudes greater than the scope of the storms and Byss combined.

That's not even including speculation in terms of the sun.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 7:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:I think the part of the Force Storms that are more proportionate to Sidious's raw power is when he actually rips open space-time.

Perhaps. But it seems to me that we're quibbling over distinctions without a difference. Multiple sources attribute the storm itself to the Emperor's power, not merely the summoning of it:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 De_2_o12
Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Force_11
Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Fact_f10

The power of the Force storm is appears to be as attributable to the Emperor as any other manipulation of external Force energy (i.e. any other manifestation of Force power) is to any other Force user in any context.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 8:18 pm
"As attributable"? You don't think that yourself since you've acknowledged that Palpatine could not just tear open fleets with telekinesis (I'm actually probably more willing to imagine that than you are).

Say TK requires X Force points to cause 10X thing to go boom.
Force storms require X Force points to cause 100000x thing to go boom.

But the actual tearing of space-time itself seems to be an enormously potent feat, and I could imagine him being able to use that same energy to just tear open a star destroyer. There's also a general correlation between power and mastery, and Palpatine's ability to direct these Force storms across the galaxy and use them to teleport fleets, and then teleport Luke to a very small prison cell on a star destroyer light years away while somehow not doing the same to the debris that was getting torn apart by the same storm (but not tearing apart Luke) is indicative of some enormous combination of the two.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Three
Level Three

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September 22nd 2019, 8:33 pm
[size=40]But the actual tearing of space-time itself seems to be an enormously potent feat, and I could imagine him being able to use that same energy to just tear open a star destroyer.[/size]

@The Ellimist
Since all Sheev is doing is ripping open a particular point in space time, all he would have to do is rip open the space a star destroyer is inhabiting and boom, the star destroyer is destroyed. So he doesn't even have to attack the star destroyer in particular, just the space its occupying.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

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September 22nd 2019, 8:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:"As attributable"? You don't think that yourself since you've acknowledged that Palpatine could not just tear open fleets with telekinesis (I'm actually probably more willing to imagine that than you are).

Pardon?

That I don't believe the Emperor could duplicate the effects of a Force storm with, say, brute TK has no bearing on whether or not I find the power to be wholly attributable to him. As I've explained before, the Force isn't magic and it manifests itself in particular ways with specific forms and functions. 

In other words: You wanna knock over a building? TK might get the job done, Force lightning won't. The fact that a Force user can employ A technique to achieve Y result and B technique to achieve Z result but not each to perform the other doesn't mean that the power wielded isn't attributable to that Force user for our purposes.

@The Ellimist wrote:Say TK requires X Force points to cause 10X thing to go boom.
Force storms require X Force points to cause 100000x thing to go boom.

But the actual tearing of space-time itself seems to be an enormously potent feat, and I could imagine him being able to use that same energy to just tear open a star destroyer. There's also a general correlation between power and mastery, and Palpatine's ability to direct these Force storms across the galaxy and use them to teleport fleets, and then teleport Luke to a very small prison cell on a star destroyer light years away while somehow not doing the same to the debris that was getting torn apart by the same storm (but not tearing apart Luke) is indicative of some enormous combination of the two.

I mean, you may be right; I just don't think there's compelling evidence to indicate the Emperor can transmute the energy of his Force storms into brute TK or telepathy or what have you with the same potency. Just as Nihilus or Vitiate can om-nom a planet with Force drain or whatever; I don't think they could do it with brute TK.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 8:45 pm
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:"As attributable"? You don't think that yourself since you've acknowledged that Palpatine could not just tear open fleets with telekinesis (I'm actually probably more willing to imagine that than you are).

Pardon?

That I don't believe the Emperor could duplicate the effects of a Force storm with, say, brute TK has no bearing on whether or not I find the power to be wholly attributable to him. As I've explained before, the Force isn't magic and it manifests itself in particular ways with specific forms and functions. 

In other words: You wanna knock over a building? TK might get the job done, Force lightning won't. The fact that a Force user can employ A technique to achieve Y result and B technique to achieve Z result but not each to perform the other doesn't mean that the power wielded isn't attributable to that Force user for our purposes.

@The Ellimist wrote:Say TK requires X Force points to cause 10X thing to go boom.
Force storms require X Force points to cause 100000x thing to go boom.

But the actual tearing of space-time itself seems to be an enormously potent feat, and I could imagine him being able to use that same energy to just tear open a star destroyer. There's also a general correlation between power and mastery, and Palpatine's ability to direct these Force storms across the galaxy and use them to teleport fleets, and then teleport Luke to a very small prison cell on a star destroyer light years away while somehow not doing the same to the debris that was getting torn apart by the same storm (but not tearing apart Luke) is indicative of some enormous combination of the two.

I mean, you may be right; I just don't think there's compelling evidence to indicate the Emperor can transmute the energy of his Force storms into brute TK or telepathy or what have you with the same potency. Just as Nihilus or Vitiate can om-nom a planet with Force drain or whatever; I don't think they could do it with brute TK.

The energies released in Force storms explicitly relate to the effects of opening a [hyperspace] wormhole, either by releasing energies that are in hyperspace or generating them as a result of the rift. That is quite obviously not coming directly from Sidious, but rather Sidious's action of opening the wormhole. You can then say that every Force technique involves drawing on external Force energies, but Force storms draw on a very specific reaction related to a space-time phenomena, that you agree creates a higher ratio of output relative to more conventional attacks. In the case of conventional attacks, while you might be drawing on an external energy field, your ability to move and interact with the field is still more direct than if you are generating a tripwire that then leads to a reaction.

Your ability to hit something with a hammer is not directly attributable to your own physical strength, but it's much more directly linked than using a crossbow is.

If you're saying that esoteric attacks like Ziost aren't directly attributable either, that's probably true...the point is that Force storms aren't.

So it's not a "distinction without a difference" except to the point that you're saying you agree with me but then saying you don't and I don't know why except based on a definition of attributable that you haven't provided.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

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September 22nd 2019, 8:56 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:The energies released in Force storms explicitly relate to the effects of opening a [hyperspace] wormhole, either by releasing energies that are in hyperspace or generating them as a result of the rift. That is quite obviously not coming directly from Sidious, but rather Sidious's action of opening the wormhole. You can then say that every Force technique involves drawing on external Force energies, but Force storms draw on a very specific reaction related to a space-time phenomena, that you agree creates a higher ratio of output relative to more conventional attacks. In the case of conventional attacks, while you might be drawing on an external energy field, your ability to move and interact with the field is still more direct than if you are generating a tripwire that then leads to a reaction.

Your ability to hit something with a hammer is not directly attributable to your own physical strength, but it's much more directly linked than using a crossbow is.

If you're saying that esoteric attacks like Ziost aren't directly attributable either, that's probably true...the point is that Force storms aren't.

Err... in this very thread, I cited at least three separate sources that attribute the energies of the Force storm explicitly and directly with the Emperor's power. It is coming from Sidious in as much as any other Force manifestation comes from any Force user, since all Force manifestations from all Force users ultimately derive from an external energy source.

I agree that there is no evidence that the Emperor could duplicate the destructive potency of a Force storm by way of another Force technique, in much the same way that I don't think a Force user who can topple buildings with TK could do so with Force lightning. That specificity of the form and function and the limited means by which a user can transmute that energy doesn't mean I would say the power involved isn't "his."

Tl;dr: I wouldn't say the power Darth Bane used to knock over the temple on Lehon with TK isn't his simply because he probably couldn't knock over the temple on Lehon with Force lightning.


Edited to include your own edit:



@The Ellimist wrote:So it's not a "distinction without a difference" except to the point that you're saying you agree with me but then saying you don't and I don't know why except based on a definition of attributable that you haven't provided.

I agree with you that I don't think the Emperor could duplicate the effects of a Force storm with brute TK or Force lightning. I agree with you that he's manipulating external energy. 

Where I don't agree with you is that this is somehow one step removed from every other manifestation of Force power, particularly high end examples, in that we can't attribute the power involved to the Emperor in much the same way as we attribute most Force powers to their users despite the fact that literally all Force manifestations derive technically from an external energy source and not the user. Especially since multiple sources do directly associate the power of a Force storm as the Emperor's energies.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 9:02 pm
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:Err... in this very thread, I cited at least three separate sources that attribute the energies of the Force storm explicitly and directly with the Emperor's power. It is coming from Sidious in as much as any other Force manifestation comes from any Force user, since all Force manifestations from all Force users ultimately derive from an external energy source.

They all derive from an external energy source*, but some are hack-ier than others. Force storms exploit a very specific hack about releasing energies from a hyperspace wormhole. The key line of causation, as you are aware of, is Sidious -> wormhole -> force storm. One's general "Force power" correlates with nearly all Force abilities, but some are more directly correlated while others have higher force multiplying effects.

Those specific details are not contradicted by common prose about how the storm reflects Sidious's power. If someone beats someone in a sword fight and the narrator says that this shows their "dominating strength", that does not contradict the fact that a sword is a force multiplier.

* though this is also a little tenuous - yes, they derive from your ability to interact with the living and cosmic Force, but that ability is clearly your own and you are directly manipulating those energies; meanwhile, Sidious's ability to create a the energies of a Force storm is mediated by the creation of a wormhole.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 22nd 2019, 11:57 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:Ziost is better because it's done whilst in a spiritual form and it's not just a planetary drain feat, it's a far more destructive attack than that. New Adasta was the stated ground zero of an attack that ripped fissures into the surface of the entire planet, caused perpetual earthquakes to circle the entire planet and caused a massive shift in the magnetic field of the entire orbit of the planet which indicates that it effected the very core of Ziost. All in less than 30 seconds.

The effect was from orbit to the core. That's magnitudes greater than the scope of the storms and Byss combined.

That's not even including speculation in terms of the sun.

So whilst the Sheev brigade debates Force storms, has anyone got an argument against this? Because I'm not seeing anything nearly as impressive.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator
Moderator

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September 23rd 2019, 5:57 am
@The Ellimist No, the energies of the storm aren't generated or spawned by hyperspace. It's all the Emperor's own power - Gideon has provided three sources clearly saying this and you haven't addressed any of them. In the comic the Emperor also states the storm is his "full potency" and likens himself to the energy and the dark side; and the endnotes associate the nature of his very existence with that the storm. It's his maximal power that he can only manifest through this specific technique - the technique itself being an upgrade on Force maelstrom, a combination of lightning, telekinesis, and barrier - not something external to him.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

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September 23rd 2019, 6:10 am
Azronger wrote:@The Ellimist No, the energies of the storm aren't generated or spawned by hyperspace.

As you've seen before, multiple sources explicitly note that the storms are released from the creation of hyperspace wormholes. If you dispute this, I can go gather them.

It's all the Emperor's own power - Gideon has provided three sources clearly saying this and you haven't addressed any of them.

"subject did Z" does not unequivocally contradict "subject did X which leads to Y which leads to Z". In this case, a common turn of prose to skip intermediary steps (e.g. "he printed the paper" isn't contradicted by the fact that it was technically the printer that printed it) doesn't override the more specific explanations of the mechanisms of the storms.

In the comic the Emperor also states the storm is his "full potency"

Well yeah, it's his most potent technique. This doesn't contradict anything unless if you take the prose in a certain connotation, but there is a reasonable connotation that better aligns with the more specific descriptions of the storms. If Kas'im takes out his dual lightsabers and tells Bane that he's about to witness his full potency being leaping at him, this would not contradict the observation that his lightsabers aren't literally a part of himself.

and likens himself to the energy and the dark side; and the endnotes associate the nature of his very existence with that the storm. It's his maximal power that he can only manifest through this specific technique - the technique itself being an upgrade on Force maelstrom, a combination of lightning, telekinesis, and barrier - not something external to him.

So are you saying that the sources which state that hyperspace wormholes generate force storms are outright false? Because I've provided a rationalization between those specific descriptions and the more open phrases about the storms being Sidious's power - do you have a rationalization the other way?
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Empty Re: Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost

September 23rd 2019, 12:37 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:Ziost is better because it's done whilst in a spiritual form and it's not just a planetary drain feat, it's a far more destructive attack than that. New Adasta was the stated ground zero of an attack that ripped fissures into the surface of the entire planet, caused perpetual earthquakes to circle the entire planet and caused a massive shift in the magnetic field of the entire orbit of the planet which indicates that it effected the very core of Ziost. All in less than 30 seconds.

The effect was from orbit to the core. That's magnitudes greater than the scope of the storms and Byss combined.

That's not even including speculation in terms of the sun.

So whilst the Sheev brigade debates Force storms, has anyone got an argument against this? Because I'm not seeing anything nearly as impressive.

N O B O D Y C A R E S.
avatar
LOTL

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September 23rd 2019, 1:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@The Ellimist wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:"As attributable"? You don't think that yourself since you've acknowledged that Palpatine could not just tear open fleets with telekinesis (I'm actually probably more willing to imagine that than you are).

Pardon?

That I don't believe the Emperor could duplicate the effects of a Force storm with, say, brute TK has no bearing on whether or not I find the power to be wholly attributable to him. As I've explained before, the Force isn't magic and it manifests itself in particular ways with specific forms and functions. 

In other words: You wanna knock over a building? TK might get the job done, Force lightning won't. The fact that a Force user can employ A technique to achieve Y result and B technique to achieve Z result but not each to perform the other doesn't mean that the power wielded isn't attributable to that Force user for our purposes.

@The Ellimist wrote:Say TK requires X Force points to cause 10X thing to go boom.
Force storms require X Force points to cause 100000x thing to go boom.

But the actual tearing of space-time itself seems to be an enormously potent feat, and I could imagine him being able to use that same energy to just tear open a star destroyer. There's also a general correlation between power and mastery, and Palpatine's ability to direct these Force storms across the galaxy and use them to teleport fleets, and then teleport Luke to a very small prison cell on a star destroyer light years away while somehow not doing the same to the debris that was getting torn apart by the same storm (but not tearing apart Luke) is indicative of some enormous combination of the two.

I mean, you may be right; I just don't think there's compelling evidence to indicate the Emperor can transmute the energy of his Force storms into brute TK or telepathy or what have you with the same potency. Just as Nihilus or Vitiate can om-nom a planet with Force drain or whatever; I don't think they could do it with brute TK.

The energies released in Force storms explicitly relate to the effects of opening a [hyperspace] wormhole, either by releasing energies that are in hyperspace or generating them as a result of the rift. That is quite obviously not coming directly from Sidious, but rather Sidious's action of opening the wormhole. You can then say that every Force technique involves drawing on external Force energies, but Force storms draw on a very specific reaction related to a space-time phenomena, that you agree creates a higher ratio of output relative to more conventional attacks. In the case of conventional attacks, while you might be drawing on an external energy field, your ability to move and interact with the field is still more direct than if you are generating a tripwire that then leads to a reaction.

Your ability to hit something with a hammer is not directly attributable to your own physical strength, but it's much more directly linked than using a crossbow is.

If you're saying that esoteric attacks like Ziost aren't directly attributable either, that's probably true...the point is that Force storms aren't.

So it's not a "distinction without a difference" except to the point that you're saying you agree with me but then saying you don't and I don't know why except based on a definition of attributable that you haven't provided.


Perhaps you should provide the quotes but pretty sure they are very well known. In any case, no. Your principle case is

The energies released in Force storms explicitly relate to the effects of opening a [hyperspace] wormhole, either by releasing energies that are in hyperspace or generating them as a result of the rift.


I think you might be taking Gideon's quotes very lightly. I can easily think of a counter case:

The target of the power is to produce energies that are like storms and the purpose of the wormhole is merely to provide a channel to bring that to the target by its optimum capacity. Or merely, a very strong and capable channel for all the power of Palpatine. It is entirely possible that Palpatine cannot channel world destroying power by the form of telekinesis or something else, so makes use of wormholes that effectively link astronomical distances together, not only giving him the power to teleport, but also providing him the perfect channel for his "dark power". Opening the wormholes may just be the first step, since the energies are released because the wormhole opens

It is not the case that the energies are released "only" because the wormhole opens because if that were the case then, theoretically your point would be that given the ability to open such a wormhole by any random technique, you would get the same destructive power that Palpatine manages to obtain. Something that is not really correct

This also explains the quote very well. Note that Palpatine is consumed by his own "dark energies" hence by your interpretation of the quote, the energies in hyperspace are inherently dark? Pretty sure that is a nonsensical notion. Moreover, look at the musings of the Jedi Council in The Jedi Path:

"Because of its potential for abuse, the Council has recently classified it as a dark side power"

Note, there is nothing "inherently" dark arising by this power. The Council classified it as such because of their fear for the dark side or its potential for misuse or abuse. Hence, given that, they obviously thought that this was pretty safe before.

Given that, it is impossible to reconcile the "energies of hyperspace" to "Palpatine being destroyed by his own dark side energies" and make note, the energies that are being stated to be dark are the same energies that are responsible for the destructive power of the force storm. The energies have to be emanating from Palpatine himself, they have to be a direct function of his own power for them to be dark. This simple explanation reconciles everything, including the quote from The Jedi Path
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
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September 23rd 2019, 2:27 pm
Interesting points. Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 1289255181 However, couldn't Palpatine's control/manipulations of the generated energies corrupt/render them as dark?
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

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September 23rd 2019, 6:08 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:Ziost is better because it's done whilst in a spiritual form and it's not just a planetary drain feat, it's a far more destructive attack than that. New Adasta was the stated ground zero of an attack that ripped fissures into the surface of the entire planet, caused perpetual earthquakes to circle the entire planet and caused a massive shift in the magnetic field of the entire orbit of the planet which indicates that it effected the very core of Ziost. All in less than 30 seconds.

The effect was from orbit to the core. That's magnitudes greater than the scope of the storms and Byss combined.

That's not even including speculation in terms of the sun.

So whilst the Sheev brigade debates Force storms, has anyone got an argument against this? Because I'm not seeing anything nearly as impressive.

N O B O D Y  C A R E S.

My friend, I've been refraining from giving you an official warning, but can you please not do this? This is like the third time you've done it in the past week. Thanks.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

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September 23rd 2019, 6:56 pm
To Elms Point: I would also cite the worms from Supernatural Encounters which engage in the same casual effect as Palpatine and initiate the same result.
Gideon/Tempest
Gideon/Tempest

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September 23rd 2019, 7:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@The Ellimist wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:Err... in this very thread, I cited at least three separate sources that attribute the energies of the Force storm explicitly and directly with the Emperor's power. It is coming from Sidious in as much as any other Force manifestation comes from any Force user, since all Force manifestations from all Force users ultimately derive from an external energy source.

They all derive from an external energy source*, but some are hack-ier than others. Force storms exploit a very specific hack about releasing energies from a hyperspace wormhole. The key line of causation, as you are aware of, is Sidious -> wormhole -> force storm. One's general "Force power" correlates with nearly all Force abilities, but some are more directly correlated while others have higher force multiplying effects.

Those specific details are not contradicted by common prose about how the storm reflects Sidious's power. If someone beats someone in a sword fight and the narrator says that this shows their "dominating strength", that does not contradict the fact that a sword is a force multiplier.

* though this is also a little tenuous - yes, they derive from your ability to interact with the living and cosmic Force, but that ability is clearly your own and you are directly manipulating those energies; meanwhile, Sidious's ability to create a the energies of a Force storm is mediated by the creation of a wormhole.

I won't inundate you with words or pursue tangents that @LOTL and @Azronger.

The fact that multiple sources explicitly attribute the Force storm itself to the Emperor's "[vast or dark] power" or "[the Emperor's] own cataclysmic dark side energy" suggests that your interpretation isn't entirely accurate. @LOTL expounds on this point: the energy of the Emperor's storms is almost always described as "dark side" in nature by a wide range of sources. 

To pursue the line of logic from your example with the swordsmen, to my knowledge we have never attributed a duelist's victory over another in lightsaber combat to the lightsaber, but rather the skill and power with which that lightsaber was wielded. 

In conclusion, my sincere belief is that we're quibbling here. All Force powers manifested by Force users derive from an external source. None of their power is inherent to them, only the skill with which they wield that external power. The Emperor can create and control Force storms at will per multiple sources. The energy of the storm is emphatically referred to as dark side in nature and directly attributed to the Emperor's own power and energy. Force storms are as reflective of his power as any high end Force manifestation can be considered reflective of any other Force user.
DarthSkywalker0
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September 23rd 2019, 7:29 pm
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:
@The Ellimist wrote:
@Gideon/Tempest wrote:Err... in this very thread, I cited at least three separate sources that attribute the energies of the Force storm explicitly and directly with the Emperor's power. It is coming from Sidious in as much as any other Force manifestation comes from any Force user, since all Force manifestations from all Force users ultimately derive from an external energy source.

They all derive from an external energy source*, but some are hack-ier than others. Force storms exploit a very specific hack about releasing energies from a hyperspace wormhole. The key line of causation, as you are aware of, is Sidious -> wormhole -> force storm. One's general "Force power" correlates with nearly all Force abilities, but some are more directly correlated while others have higher force multiplying effects.

Those specific details are not contradicted by common prose about how the storm reflects Sidious's power. If someone beats someone in a sword fight and the narrator says that this shows their "dominating strength", that does not contradict the fact that a sword is a force multiplier.

* though this is also a little tenuous - yes, they derive from your ability to interact with the living and cosmic Force, but that ability is clearly your own and you are directly manipulating those energies; meanwhile, Sidious's ability to create a the energies of a Force storm is mediated by the creation of a wormhole.

I won't inundate you with words or pursue tangents that @LOTL and @Azronger.

The fact that multiple sources explicitly attribute the Force storm itself to the Emperor's "[vast or dark] power" or "[the Emperor's] own cataclysmic dark side energy" suggests that your interpretation isn't entirely accurate. @LOTL expounds on this point: the energy of the Emperor's storms is almost always described as "dark side" in nature by a wide range of sources. 

To pursue the line of logic from your example with the swordsmen, to my knowledge we have never attributed a duelist's victory over another in lightsaber combat to the lightsaber, but rather the skill and power with which that lightsaber was wielded. 

In conclusion, my sincere belief is that we're quibbling here. All Force powers manifested by Force users derive from an external source. None of their power is inherent to them, only the skill with which they wield that external power. The Emperor can create and control Force storms at will per multiple sources. The energy of the storm is emphatically referred to as dark side in nature and directly attributed to the Emperor's own power and energy. Force storms are as reflective of his power as any high end Force manifestation can be considered reflective of any other Force user.

Do you think if any regular old joe tore through space-time a force storm would be generated?
Master Azronger
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September 23rd 2019, 7:43 pm
@The Ellimist

you've seen before, multiple sources explicitly note that the storms are released from the creation of hyperspace wormholes. If you dispute this, I can go gather them.

Yes, I’m familiar with the sources, but I’d like you to post them anyway for quick reference in this thread.

But no, I’m not disputing the idea the energies are released in tandem with the creation of a hyperspace wormhole. I’m disputing the idea the energies originate from hyperspace, which they do not - they originate from Sidious; they are his dark side power as many disparate sources explicitly note.

subject did Z" does not unequivocally contradict "subject did X which leads to Y which leads to Z". In this case, a common turn of prose to skip intermediary steps (e.g. "he printed the paper" isn't contradicted by the fact that it was technically the printer that printed it) doesn't override the more specific explanations of the mechanisms of the storms.


And if all the quotes said “Sidious created the dark side energy,” you might have a point, but they don’t say that. The quotes say ”his own cataclysmic dark side energy,” “his own dark power,” and ”his dark side power,” respectively. Ergo, the energy of the Force storm is Sidious’ own, personal dark side energy and originates from his being as much as any Force ability comes from the user.

Well yeah, it's his most potent technique. This doesn't contradict anything unless if you take the prose in a certain connotation, but there is a reasonable connotation that better aligns with the more specific descriptions of the storms. If Kas'im takes out his dual lightsabers and tells Bane that he's about to witness his full potency being leaping at him, this would not contradict the observation that his lightsabers aren't literally a part of himself.

I agree - those descriptions being the ones that state in plain terms the Force storm is Palpatine’s own, personal dark side energy. And the Force storm is just that: his personal power taken to its nth degree; his full potency. That’s a more straightforward and literal reading than “it’s his most potent technique,” and you haven’t come close to proving the idea a literal interpretation of the text is contradictory to how the Force storm functions. The Kas’im analogy is a poor one since one could easily take his words to mean he’s referring to his dueling skill, an attribute inherent to him and not something external; the lightsaber is merely an instrument through which he manifests that skill, but the phrase “my full potency” clearly refers to him as a person and not his weapon.

So are you saying that the sources which state that hyperspace wormholes generate force storms are outright false? Because I've provided a rationalization between those specific descriptions and the more open phrases about the storms being Sidious's power - do you have a rationalization the other way?

No, you haven’t done that. What you’ve done is misread Gideon’s evidence and my words. I never said your sources are false. All I’ve argued is that Gideon’s sources vindicate his and my views on the storm, and I provided two sources of my own to back it up further. You haven’t addressed them properly, much less created “a rationalization” between anything.

But since you asked, here's my theory on the mechanics of the Force storm:

Palpatine says that “the channeled anger of the dark side” “can be funneled through the body and released near the heart at the ‘vital gate.’” The word “gate” denotes a passageway or a portal of sorts.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Force_12

He explains that “When the Force is sensed and moved by emotion from the very center of the body, and meditated from the lower vital centers of the being, it acts with the destructive power of a storm” and that “Anger is the most potent catalyst to this kind of power.” So when anger is focused in the vital centers of the being, the power of the Force roils with the power of a storm, and this energy is released through a portal as Palpatine himself states: “Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the dark side of the Force.” I believe this “portal” is the same “vital gate” at which the dark side anger can be released that Palpatine mentioned in Book of Sith; he also mentioned that its location is near the heart, so it seems this portal through which his power is funneled through is within the body.

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Essent10

The same information is repeated; however, Palpatine clarifies that “Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released [...] With these energies, I have slain my enemies from across the empty reaches of space. I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.” This makes it clear - if it wasn’t already - that the energies he unleashes are of his own power: lightning is clearly not some weird, inherent property of hyperspace.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5wwQAVR6k&t=9m30s

The Emperor’s hologram: “...and I have come to realize that the dark side is my only ally. The dark side is the only means to power.”

Luke Skywalker: “Be quiet, Artoo - I don’t care about the time. But can you do something about the heat? I suddenly… feel… cold.”

The Emperor’s hologram: “My explorations of the Force have revealed to me many wonderful secrets.”

Luke Skywalker: “Cold… Luke a dead hand pressing on my heart.”

The Emperor’s hologram: “I have learned that anger and will, when joined together, forge a most unholy and devastating alliance.”

Luke Skywalker: “Maybe Artoo’s right. Time to leave. But it’s like a great weight… pressing down on me. I… can’t move… can’t… leave…”

The Emperor’s hologram: “Using anger, I have learned to unlock the hidden reservoirs of the glorious dark side power.”

Luke Skywalker: “No…”

The Emperor’s hologram: “Anger concentrated by will in the vital center of the body creates a portal through which vast energies are released - the energies of the dark side of the Force. This is the power I command, now that I am one with the dark side.”

Luke Skywalker: “Is this what my father felt?”

The Emperor’s hologram: “With these energies, I have slain my enemies from across the empty reaches of space.”

Luke Skywalker: “I shouldn’t… listen…”

The Emperor’s hologram: “I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.”

Luke Skywalker: “...but I can’t… stop.”

The Emperor’s hologram: “With this knowledge, I can unleash the dark side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created storms.”

Luke Skywalker: “Got… to break… free! I’m… alright, Artoo. This place is still strong with the dark side. And the presence of the Emperor, even in a hologram, is almost overpowering. I’ve got to resist the temptation to study these tapes. Still, I wonder what he meant about ‘storms…’”


There is precedent for this in The Old Republic with Darth Thanaton and Valkorion. They both have summoned lightning that was not channeled through their hands but rather seemingly appeared out of thin air. I believe this is the same thing Sidious was talking about: Force energy that is transported from within the user to an external location through a portal and released there so that it doesn’t have to be channeled through the body. Thanaton and Valkorion’s Force lightning is clearly attributable to their own power, and so is Sheev’s Force storm in that same vein.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ho6ZiuRvZQ&t=200s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=500s

So this is how the Force storm works: Sheev dumps a bunch of his Force energy through a portal in his body, and the other side of this portal is somewhere in the external world. To visualize it:

Force Storms vs. Byss vs. Ziost - Page 2 Force_15

This explains how a Force storm can only be summoned after space-time has been shattered to form a wormhole yet still be of Sheev’s own power. It also explains why the Force storm is the only way in which Sheev can harness his full potency - the technique itself is an augmented variant of Force maelstrom, and it’s not channeled through his own body because it would kill him (see his fight with Mace Windu), but rather funneled through a portal and released via a hyperspace wormhole of the Emperor’s making in the external world.
LadyKulvax
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September 23rd 2019, 7:43 pm
I'm inclined to agree with Gideon here, otherwise literally anyone can do it and yet it's supposed to be something only incredibly dangerous threats, such as the Darkstaff can do.
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