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CuckedCurry
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:22 pm
I mean the answer is simple 

Would Valk be terrified of Vaylin if he could do death waves off the bat
HellfireUnit
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:30 pm
Here I come folks. Now that I put my granny to bed and switched to PC, I have all the time in the world. The night is long and the Lord is generous. This is where the fun begins.
UnquantifiableCharacter77
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:51 pm
Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 3948126588
BoD
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:58 pm
@CuckedCurry wrote:I mean the answer is simple 

Would Valk be terrified of Vaylin if he could do death waves off the bat

Those "death waves" took immense concentration and weren't shown to be usable on anything less than a planetary level. They're completely ineffective in a fight. He was scared of her because her full power was greater than any other being he'd ever seen and reminded him of himself.
Meatpants
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 1:59 pm
Gotta respect the grandma love.
Blade_of_Dorin
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 2:07 pm
@Meatpants wrote:Gotta respect the grandma love.
The Ellimist
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 4:43 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:@HellfireUnit
Your evidence for this is? I'm also pretty sure the codex says it isn't.

The codex entry in question doesn't address the question of whether or not it's a ritual. Anyway, Ziost is compared to Nathema in and out of universe; you could say that the destruction part of Nathema was not a ritual but rather a machine that Vitiate didn't have on Ziost, but the galaxy ritual involved a ritual for the destruction too.

That's how long it takes him in-game IIRC.

How do we know that's real-time? We see the death wave up close and it's not even that fast.

Is Ziost more impressive than Nihilus (who Sidious scales above)? What about the unbalancing of the Force?
HellfireUnit
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:41 pm
@BreakofDawn @NotAA3 @Praxis @IdrisianGraecus I hope you'll enjoy this.

Edit 1: Quotes I present for Ziost were deleted somehow, readded them.

Part 1 - Force Lightning
 
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.
Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.
The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp. -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

This is an impressive feat. Vitiate's lightning being able to boid and blister Revan's skin and overpower his defences. However there are two things here:

> Revan was tortured and drugged for years before he faced Vitiate. No matter how powerful one is, they cannot shrug off from the effects of drugs and torture they endured. In this state, Revan succeeded to pass the guards and arrived at the presence of the Emperor.
> A droid that barely possess any offensive capabilities managed to interrupt Vitiate's lightning and forced him to take a defensive stance and break his focus on Revan. This is an underplay for Vitiate.

Before this happened, Vitiate also launched a wave of Force Lightning onto Revan.


The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate.

A weakened Revan managed to successfully block and deflect Emperor's lightning and managed to knock him off. Being unable to overpower a combatant who was drugged and tortured recently for about 2-3 years is pathetic. It appears Vitiate is unable to overpower Lightsabers.

Besides Revan being able to deflect Vitiate's Force Lightning, there is also the Hero of Tython who managed to overpower Emperor's lightning and strike the latter down.

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=2m56s

And finally there is Valkorion's perfomance against Darth Marr. It appears he managed to kill Marr with a single blast. Darth Marr is the strongest one in the Dark Council so this is quite an impressive feat for Tenebrae. However there are two things to consider:

> Marr was captured and completely defenseless against the emperor while trying to overwhelm the knights.
> Due to poor the poor execution of the animations, we barely saw how Valkorion blasted Marr away.

https://youtu.be/dykZj0-WftY?t=25s

As I said, the moment Marr was blasted wasn't shown, only his rolling corpse on the floor. Marr was completely unarmed and unequipped so he had no way of defending himself against the Emperor while trying to fight off the guards.

Part 2 - Ziost

Now folks, I have another arguments about Ziost being ritual. This wasn't one of them but thanks for reminding me BreakofDawn:

"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

This quote alone indicates that there is a ritual involved with the cataclysm of Ziost.

Though, these were the ones what I'd like to point out about the stuff happened at Ziost and these statements were confirmed by Charles Boyd, the writer and game director at BioWare Austin for the SWTOR and its extentions who worked as the lead writer for Shadow of Revan and Knights of the Eternal Empire:


Now this is just conjecture based on my own interpretations, but based on the JK story the ritual to consume the life in the galaxy required 2 things. A certain amount of deaths over a certain time and a huge amount of death in a short time, probably creating a disturbance in the force which Vitiate can use to feed or something.

On Ziost his spirit controls beings and then uses to kill other beings then posses more, it's a cycle until I think it reaches a point where he's able to consume the planet.


You know, this might actually be a good explanation for it. Hopefully someone will clear it up because from the Revan novel and every other source it always seemed to involve a force related ritual, no Zildrog at all, but I suppose it's possible that information could be retconned as Nyriss could've been wrong or not fully aware of what had happened.


Force ritual and the use of Zildrog aren't necessarily excluding one another. Even if Vitiate used a particular mean to end people's lives, I think he would still need to perform a ritual in order to catch the spirits of the deads. In the end, no matter said murdering means, that's not what will be remembered. People who are Force Sensitive can feel the death of a whole world through the Force... if someone siphon the energy of the population of an entire planet, someone is bound to feel it. The latter is much more troubling than the former, since there are a lot of way to effectively kill entire populations in the matter of seconds, while there isn't that much appearence of one being eating said population.

http://www.swtor.com/community/showthread.php?t=948640

There are also other important matters:

> Vitiate required disturbances in the Force. The disturbance happened as a result of his actions which involved a cycle of possessing and killing individuals. Without the disturbance and the ritual, he would never be able to consume it.
> Ziost is a powerful Dark Side nexus, which amps Tenebrae along with the disturbances.
> Vitiate's actions and plans were not interrupted by anyone important. His actions were not even in secret and was detected by Theron Shan who deployed the Sixth Line for an investigation, a team of Jedi that fell under Vitiate's influence. Supreme Chancellor Leontyne Saresh who ignored the warnings of Shan even made everything easier for Vitiate by sending an army straight to his feet.

As a result, Vitiate required time and effort to cause havoc around the globe that created disturbances in the Force which were also fed by the Dark Side nexus and finally a ritual to consume the life on the planet. This took quite a long time so don't bullshit me by saying "Vitiate absorbed Ziost in 30 seconds."

Part 3 - Comparison to Darth Sidious (RotS and prior)

Let's start with Sidious' lightning:

Lightning blasted the clouds above, and lightning blasted from Palpatine's hands, and Mace didn't have time to comprehend what Palpatine was talking about; he had time only to slip back into Vaapad and angle his blade to catch the forking arcs of pure, dazzling hatred that clawed toward him. Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source.
Palpatine still made no move to defend himself from Skywalker; instead he ramped up the lightning bursting from his hands, bending the fountain of Mace's blade back toward the Korun Master's face.
Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me—"
This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. -Revenge of the Sith


An unarmed Sidious who were under the feet of Mace Windu was capable of killing the Jedi Master with his lightning alone. Utilizing Vaapad, Mace was significantly amped and reached the same power level of Darth Sidious. Even armed with his lightsaber and Vaapad, he still wasn't capable of defeating the unarmed Supreme Chancellor and was almost killed by his own blade. Sidious' lightning overpowers lightsabers and bends them. In the meantime:

> Vitiate's lightning can be blocked by an extremely weakened Revan and deflect it back to the Emperor with a lightsaber
> Vitiate's lightning was easily overpowered by Hero of Tython who struck him down
> Vitiate's lightning killed an unarmed Darth Marr who was busy with knights

Speed:

Maul parried the blow and reversed, coming at Sidious from the opposite side. But Sidious had already vanished, leaving Maul to lunge at the empty air. As Maul lost his balance, his body fell against the cave's wall.
Sidious said from behind Maul, "You
are that pathetic. You are weak. Not worthy of being a Sith Lord. I have misjudged you."
Maul's anger burned to rage. He spun fast and swung his lightsaber again, but again he failed to strike Sidious, who moved faster than he could follow. -
The Wrath of Darth Maul

Suddenly, my lightsaber is gone. It flies from my hand across the room. It lands in the hand of my Master. I never see him enter. Not if he doesn't want me to. The smile of triumph fades from my face.
"Do you think," Lord Sidious says, walking toward me, "you can ever relax your guard?"
"No, Master." What a clumsy, weak mistake. I should be prepared for him to enter at all times. How could I have forgotten that, even for a moment?
The lightsaber whirls in the air, twirling, held in my Master's hand. I can't track it, it moves so fast. But I know it's heading for me. Lord Sidious moves faster than my eye can follow. I smell heat and smoke. The laser traces the outline of my body, my face, my hands. The buzz is loud in my ear. One flinch, one involuntary twitch of a muscle, and I am dead.
I do not flinch.
At last, Lord Sidious deactivates my weapon. He tosses it toward me. The sweat on my palm almost causes me to drop it.
"Do not let me see you relax your guard again," my Master says. His eyes burn. "You are valuable, yes. But you are not indispensable, Lord Maul. I can do without you."
A flick of his robe, and he is gone. -Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul

A fountain of amethyst energy burst from Mace Windu's fist. "Don't try to resist."
The song of his blade was echoed by green fire from the hands of Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar, and Saesee Tiin. Kolar and Tiin closed on Palpatine, blocking the path to the door. Shadows dripped and oozed color, weaving and coiling up office walls slipping over chairs, spreading along the floor.
"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"
He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.
Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"
The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.
"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still. -Revenge of the Sith

Anakin blinked and rubbed his eyes again. Maybe he was still a bit flash-blind—the Korun Master seemed to be fading in and out of existence, half swallowed by a thickening black haze in which danced a meter-long bar of sunfire. Mace pressed back the darkness with a relentless straight-ahead march; his own blade, that distinctive amethyst blaze that had been the final sight of so many evil beings across the galaxy, made a haze of its own: an oblate sphere of purple fire within which there seemed to be dozens of swords slashing in all directions at once.
The shadow he fought, that blur of speed—could that be Palpatine
Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire, weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not truly see them—but he could feel them in the Force. The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent. And it was darkening.
 He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. -Revenge of the Sith

Sidious moves so fast that Anakin is unable to comprehend it. Anakin is also fast enough to react to starfighters flying at substantial fractions of light speed and evade lightning bolts. Vitiate cannot react to and defend from his own lightning and Meetra Surik's saber throw. How can he react to Darth Sidious?

Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.
In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild side-arm throw. Guiding it with the Force, so that it spiraled end over end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp, and sending it skittering across the floor.
Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could’ve ended his life even as he ended Revan’s.
But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.
Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand. Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strengths and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan-The Old Republic: Revan

Overall Power and Influence:

"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours. Never once did I have any intention of sharing power with you. I needed to learn from you; no more, no less. To learn all of your secrets, which I trusted you would eventually reveal. But what made you think that I would need you after that? Vanity, perhaps; your sense of self-importance. You’ve been nothing more than a pawn in a game played by a genuine Master.
“The Sith’ari.”
A cruel laugh escaped him.
“Reflect back on even the past few years—assuming you have the capacity. Yinchorr, Dorvalla, Eriadu, Maul, the Neimoidians, Naboo, an army of clones, the fallen Jedi Dooku... You think these were your ideas, when in fact they were mine, cleverly suggested to you so that you could feed them back to me. You were far too trusting, Plagueis. No true Sith can ever really care about another. This has always been known. There is no way but my way.” -Darth Plagueis

"It's a great pity that our paths have never crossed before, Obi-Wan," he said, his voice warm and inviting. "Qui-Gon always spoke very highly of you. I wish he was still alive—I could use his help right now." 
"Qui-Gon Jinn would never join you." 
"Don't be so sure, my young Jedi," Count Dooku immediately replied, an offsetting smile on his face, one of confidence and calm. "You forget that Qui-Gon was once my apprentice just as you were once his." 
"You believe that brings loyalty above his loyalty to the Jedi Council and the Republic?" 
"He knew all about the corruption in the Senate," Dooku went on without missing a beat. "They all do, of course. Yoda and Mace Windu. But Qui-Gon would never have gone along with the status quo, with that corruption, if he had known the truth as I have." The pause was dramatic, demanding a prompt from Obi-Wan. 
"The truth?" 
"The truth," said a confident Dooku. "What if I told you that the Republic was now under the control of the Dark Lords of the Sith?" 
That hit Obi-Wan as profoundly as any of the electric bolts holding him ever could. "No! That's not possible." His mind whirled, needing a denial. He alone among the living Jedi had battled a Sith Lord, and that contest had cost his beloved Master Qui-Gon his life. "The Jedi would be aware of it." 
"The dark side of the Force has clouded their vision, my friend," Dooku calmly explained. "Hundreds of Senators are now under the influence of a Sith Lord called Darth Sidious." -Attack of Clones


For a decade, there was no physical signs of the remaining Dark Lord, but evidence of his power began to appear. The Jedi ability to use the Force inexplicably began to diminish -Databank: Sith

Anakin endured a bizarre visit to the realm of Mortis, a home to a trio of powerful Force wielders who seemed to embody different aspects of the Force. The Father kept the Force in balance, and summoned Anakin to Mortis to fulfill his destiny and take the Father’s place. Anakin refused, and the Force stayed unbalanced. -Databank: Mortis

To summarize, Palpatine caused such an imbalance that even the Father of Mortis was not able to restore it. Alone, he clouded the thousands of Jedi's ability to use the Force, their vision, judgement thus Force itself intervened and Anakin Skywalker was conceived. Vitiate utilizes from the Dark Side nexus of and the disturbances to perform rituals in the meantime Sidious himself causes irreversible damage to fabrics of the universe. Vitiate struggled to electrocute a weakened Revan, average Jedi like Hero of Tython and killed an unarmed Marr. Sidious' lightning overpowers lightsabers and bends them, even against someone who is massively amped like Mace Windu. Even if you are not convinced that Palpatine is superior to Vitiate, the latter lacks combat and physical feats. The Sith Emperor can barely react to a fake ass R2D2 wit flamethrower, lightsaber throw, his own lighting during the combat. Palpatine moves so fast that Anakin who is capable of reacting to sub-LS at least cannot comprehend Sidious' presence and fight with Mace Windu.

I would write way more stuff but I am pretty tired at the moment. All I can say is if you think Ziost is an insane feat, it most definitely is not. TP'ing defenseless people while sitting your ass on a DS nexus and causing small havocs in order to lead disturbances to perform a ritual without anyone interfering isn't something special. Therefore Sidious, Yoda and Mace would all stomp Valkorion and defend from whatever he could throw at. Hell I am pretty sure he'd get speedblitzed. Thanks for reading.


Last edited by HellfireUnit on Fri Sep 27, 2019 1:39 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : typo)
HellfireUnit
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:42 pm
@Meatpants thanks mate by the way. I do care about my granny a lot.
HellfireUnit
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:42 pm
@The Ellimist @Azronger you may wanna check this.
Praxis
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 5:59 pm
I'm not really interested in getting into a full blown discussion right now since I was only asking for clarification but I'll be brief and address the two glaring holes regarding Valk's lightning since that was what I was asking about.

@HellfireUnit wrote:
Besides Revan being able to deflect Vitiate's Force Lightning, there is also the Hero of Tython who managed to overpower Emperor's lightning and strike the latter down.

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=2m56s

This is missing some extreme context. The Emperor was in his weakest state in the entire story at this point after his encounter with Sel-Makor.

You also forgot to include Valkorion's lightning blast against Arcann when the Outlander let him take over his body which is his most impressive lightning feat:

https://youtu.be/aFgVb8Q5Ooo?t=162
HellfireUnit
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:08 pm
@Praxis wrote:I'm not really interested in getting into a full blown discussion right now since I was only asking for clarification but I'll be brief and address the two glaring holes regarding Valk's lightning since that was what I was asking about.

@HellfireUnit wrote:
Besides Revan being able to deflect Vitiate's Force Lightning, there is also the Hero of Tython who managed to overpower Emperor's lightning and strike the latter down.

https://youtu.be/2pwPRbwaT2A?t=2m56s

This is missing some extreme context. The Emperor was in his weakest state in the entire story at this point after his encounter with Sel-Makor.

You also forgot to include Valkorion's lightning blast against Arcann when the Outlander let him take over his body which is his most impressive lightning feat:

https://youtu.be/aFgVb8Q5Ooo?t=162

I'll be explaining them tomorrow thanks for pointing it out. Now, I am too damn tired, good night mate.
BoD
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 6:15 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
@NotAA3 wrote:@HellfireUnit
Your evidence for this is? I'm also pretty sure the codex says it isn't.

The codex entry in question doesn't address the question of whether or not it's a ritual. Anyway, Ziost is compared to Nathema in and out of universe; you could say that the destruction part of Nathema was not a ritual but rather a machine that Vitiate didn't have on Ziost, but the galaxy ritual involved a ritual for the destruction too.

That's how long it takes him in-game IIRC.

How do we know that's real-time? We see the death wave up close and it's not even that fast.

Is Ziost more impressive than Nihilus (who Sidious scales above)? What about the unbalancing of the Force?
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The Ellimist
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 10:07 pm
How do we know that's real-time? We see it from the ground and it's moving at subsonic speeds.
CuckedCurry
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on Tue Sep 03, 2019 11:39 pm
BreakofDawn wrote:
@CuckedCurry wrote:I mean the answer is simple 

Would Valk be terrified of Vaylin if he could do death waves off the bat

Those "death waves" took immense concentration and weren't shown to be usable on anything less than a planetary level. They're completely ineffective in a fight. He was scared of her because her full power was greater than any other being he'd ever seen and reminded him of himself.

Makes no sense. Next
HellfireUnit
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 12:53 am

You also forgot to include Valkorion's lightning blast against Arcann when the Outlander let him take over his body which is his most impressive lightning feat:

https://youtu.be/aFgVb8Q5Ooo?t=162

About this, firstly it is non-canon, therefore it has no validity. The duel ends with Arcann stabbing the Outlander. 

Second, Valkorion offers his power to Outlander, similar to a situation like Kyp and Kun attacking Luke. Valkorion isn't the one blasting Arcann, it would be Outlander.
Meatpants
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:31 am
PT, at most mid difficulty.
Azronger
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 1:38 am
@HellfireUnit Good job, reminds of the style of argumentation I used to employ a few years back. Although Scourge did administer an antidote for Revan's drugs and they did have at least a day of rest and meditation, so I doubt Revan was weakened beyond suffering the effects of the dark side nexus.

_________________
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The Ellimist
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:01 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

To be fair, I don't think this quote says Ziost was or wasn't a ritual - the point is that those were rumors (and it wasn't of just rituals, but also "deadly, arcane machines"), and this was "clear".
Azronger
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:13 am
Anyway, to address the whole Ziost thing: the feat's entirely unquantifiable in a combative context. If Vitiate fired it in the middle of combat against Sidious, the vast majority of the energy wouldn't even be directed at Sidious since it's a planetary AoE attack released in all directions. Sidious would only have to tank the amount of energy hitting the surface area of his body, which is a tiny fraction of the totality. And while you can argue Vitiate can still channel the power of Ziost into a single, concentrated attack on Sidious, the power of such an attack is impossible to quantify. How do you calculate the power required for Ziost in terms of Force lightning or telekinesis? You can't. I have no idea why the feat is still cited in cross-era battles against other top-tier Force-users when it is one-of-a-kind with no reference point to any other feat in the mythos.

SWTOR Vitiate vs. PT Sidious already has a canonical answer anyway:

Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Vitiat11

Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 6332401-3382844464-Sidio

The excerpt from Insider # 86 is out-of-universe and talks about Sidious as the MVP Sith in the context of his fight with Yoda. Ergo, in combat, Darth Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate until he renounced the Sith title and the Sith Empire.

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HellfireUnit
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 2:47 am
@Azronger wrote:@HellfireUnit Good job, reminds of the style of argumentation I used to employ a few years back. Although Scourge did administer an antidote for Revan's drugs and they did have at least a day of rest and meditation, so I doubt Revan was weakened beyond suffering the effects of the dark side nexus.

Thank you. While Revan had an antidote and a brief time to rest, they could not possibly remove the effects of torture and drugging he endured for years, fully. Revan's body was beyond exhaustion and this is not something you can recover from within a day.
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on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:00 am
@The Ellimist wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:
"Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme." -Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Emperor.

To be fair, I don't think this quote says Ziost was or wasn't a ritual - the point is that those were rumors (and it wasn't of just rituals, but also "deadly, arcane machines"), and this was "clear".

I wasn't going to add this quote, though it still suggests that rituals and arcane machines are behind the acts of planetery destructions. I made another argument for Ziost being a ritual.
HellfireUnit
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Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Empty Re: Team PT vs. Team TOR

on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:06 am
@Azronger wrote:Anyway, to address the whole Ziost thing: the feat's entirely unquantifiable in a combative context. If Vitiate fired it in the middle of combat against Sidious, the vast majority of the energy wouldn't even be directed at Sidious since it's a planetary AoE attack released in all directions. Sidious would only have to tank the amount of energy hitting the surface area of his body, which is a tiny fraction of the totality. And while you can argue Vitiate can still channel the power of Ziost into a single, concentrated attack on Sidious, the power of such an attack is impossible to quantify. How do you calculate the power required for Ziost in terms of Force lightning or telekinesis? You can't. I have no idea why the feat is still cited in cross-era battles against other top-tier Force-users when it is one-of-a-kind with no reference point to any other feat in the mythos.

SWTOR Vitiate vs. PT Sidious already has a canonical answer anyway:

Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Vitiat11

Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 6332401-3382844464-Sidio

The excerpt from Insider # 86 is out-of-universe and talks about Sidious as the MVP Sith in the context of his fight with Yoda. Ergo, in combat, Darth Sidious is more powerful than Vitiate until he renounced the Sith title and the Sith Empire.

Besides Ziost being unquantifiable in a combative context, it is barely a display of Vitiate's own powers. His actions of Ziost were fueled by conflict among the people, DS nexus, disturbance in the Force. Vitiate only managed to possess vulnerable people and use them to create conflicts. Without ritual, he would not be able to consume Ziost.

Also whether Vitiate is being considered a Sith during TOR and afterwards or not, he is still a Dark Side practitioner. Sidious was the strongest person to use the Dark Side up to the date during the days of PT so I doubt Vitiate being a Sith Lord or not is really relevant.
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Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Empty Re: Team PT vs. Team TOR

on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:18 am
Sidious was the strongest person to use the Dark Side up to the date during the days of PT

Can you provide that quote?
HellfireUnit
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Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Empty Re: Team PT vs. Team TOR

on Wed Sep 04, 2019 3:25 am
@Azronger wrote:
Sidious was the strongest person to use the Dark Side up to the date during the days of PT

Can you provide that quote?

Let me check my archives.
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Team PT vs. Team TOR - Page 2 Empty Re: Team PT vs. Team TOR

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