Vader (Suited Prime) vs Tenebrous

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.

If you take this to indicate Ulic = Vader and Exar = Sheev, the latter position has obviously been retconned into oblivion by Malak, Vitiate, and Sheev's numerous MVP statements (your quote is from 1998), leaving only Ulic = Vader as a plausible stance. Alternatively, the quote treats Vader and Sheev as a singular unit in terms of strength - or in other words, they're in the same tier - but then that would make the tier itself have an incalculably wide range, so Ulic and Exar's exact placements are entirely nebulous. I don't think it's a very concrete statement.

Sheev's position in relation to Kun is irrelevant for my argument in this thread, if Prime Ulic = Vader is indeed a plausible stance

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.

If you take this to indicate Ulic = Vader and Exar = Sheev, the latter position has obviously been retconned into oblivion by Malak, Vitiate, and Sheev's numerous MVP statements (your quote is from 1998), leaving only Ulic = Vader as a plausible stance. Alternatively, the quote treats Vader and Sheev as a singular unit in terms of strength - or in other words, they're in the same tier - but then that would make the tier itself have an incalculably wide range, so Ulic and Exar's exact placements are entirely nebulous. I don't think it's a very concrete statement.

Sheev's position in relation to Kun is irrelevant for my argument in this thread, if Prime Ulic = Vader is indeed a plausible stance

Gonna need to see that certified by someone who speaks French, and get a better translation. I don't trust you or Ant 

The G Canon Purist wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.

If you take this to indicate Ulic = Vader and Exar = Sheev, the latter position has obviously been retconned into oblivion by Malak, Vitiate, and Sheev's numerous MVP statements (your quote is from 1998), leaving only Ulic = Vader as a plausible stance. Alternatively, the quote treats Vader and Sheev as a singular unit in terms of strength - or in other words, they're in the same tier - but then that would make the tier itself have an incalculably wide range, so Ulic and Exar's exact placements are entirely nebulous. I don't think it's a very concrete statement.

Sheev's position in relation to Kun is irrelevant for my argument in this thread, if Prime Ulic = Vader is indeed a plausible stance

Gonna need to see that certified by someone who speaks French, and get a better translation. I don't trust you or Ant 

Ils jouent dans le même cour que Vador et Palpatine = They play in the same court (ballpark) than (as) Vader and Palpatine.

Et sont plutôt moins aimables qu-eux = and are rather less friendly/kind than them. 

Laissez tomber les caractéristiques = Let go these characteristics.

The translation is clumsy and hard to put into specific English words without potentially twisting the context or the meaning. It's also unclear from that cropped image in what regard they're in the same ballpark as Vader/Palpatine.

It was in response to the idea, apparently supported by the author, that Vader was not trying to kill Luke in ROTJ. If that’s not what you were arguing then it’s fair, but I doubt Luke is that far from Vader in ESB when a few months later they’re equals. 

It's not "a few months later". It's a year later. And no, per Lucas, Vader's intent was not to kill Luke. It was to bring Luke, "Vader's hope" to the dark side to further his "mad lust for power."

Why wouldn’t Vader do so though? He could very well test Luke’s abilities even if he’s going all-out or even aim to incapacitate him if he needs him alive, something that’s confirmed in Shadows of the empire (I’ll present the quote later). 

First, I'm aware of the quote you're referring to. I'm also aware of how it's contradicted by numerous other sources such as Fact Files. Your same source also notes that Vader is distinctively more skilled, so comparing the two based on technical skill when Luke compensates through agility, initiative and ingenuity (as evidenced throughout the fight) doesn't indicate the two are more or less equal.  

Second, just trying to kill Luke doesn't mean he's giving it everything he's got. Per Shadows:


When they fought, he had also tried to strike the boy down, but that had been merely a test. Had he been able to kill Luke easily, Luke would not have been worth the effort to recruit. 

Is Vader using killing blows? Yes. Does that necessitate him giving it everything he's got when his style is centred around powerful killing strikes? No. If Luke had been unable to defend against even his most rudimentary killing attacks, he might as well have just taken a random padawan as his apprentice. 

You might also be interested to know (if you didn't already) that the author of Shadows corroborates this:


(Second question is included just in case anyone thinks I'm omitting context). 

This is quite an ironic statement. By saying that Luke doesn’t consider the possibility that one might be able to throw more than one object at once you’re essentially arguing that Luke is incapable of basic logic.

Not at all, so I'd appreciate it if you didn't put words in my mouth. Vader is throwing objects one after another at Luke so they buffet him. Luke thinks that level of control is impressive on its own. He's then taking this case of power and control whereby Vader can throw them one after another in quick succession as a demonstration of the sort of control (not power) that Vader possesses, then directly contrasting it with Djo's.


Luke hasn't seen Vader do things like this:

[size=37]Shryne was steeling himself for a lunging attack when, abruptly, Vader halted and withdrew the blade into the lightsaber’s hilt. Before Shryne could begin to make sense of it, he heard a creaking sound from below, and something flew at him from one of the [size=37]ramps. Only a last-instant turn of his sword kept the object from striking him in the head. It was a plank—ripped from a ramp they had taken to the bridge. Shryne gazed in awe at unreadable Vader, then began to race toward him, blade held high over his right shoulder. [/size]


[size=37]He didn’t make half the distance when a storm of similar planks and lengths of handrail came whirling at him. Vader was using his dark side abilities to dismantle the ramps! Surrendering to the guidance of the Force, Shryne swung his lightsaber in a flurry of deflecting maneuvers—side-to-side, overhead, low down, behind his back—but the floorboards were coming in larger and larger pieces, from all directions, and faster than he could parry them. The butt end of a board struck him on the outer left thigh. The face of a wide plank slammed him across the shoulders. Wooden pegs flew at his face; others speared into his arms. Then a short support post hit him squarely in the forehead, knocking the wind out of him and dropping him to his knees. Blood running into his eyes, he fought to remain conscious, extending the lightsaber in one shaking hand while clamping the other on the bridge’s handrail. Five meters away Vader stood, his hands crossed in front of him, lightsaber hanging on his belt. Shryne tried to keep him in focus. Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space. Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder. [/size]
[/size]


[size=37]-[/size]


His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked.


-


Vader threw wrecked platforms and cloning tubes at him, while he scored three slashes to the Dark Lord’s cape in return. They circled the top of the cloning tower, striking and assessing, then striking again.


There's a vast disparity between what Vader is doing in the above ones and what he does against Luke. Do I need to point out that the quote is a direct comparison between the two events?


"Waytha ara quetha way. Waytha ara quetha way!" Lightning crackled overhead and a dozen small boulders blasted toward Luke, hurtling through the air. Vader had tried similar tricks, but Luke reflected woefully that Vader hadn't been nearly as good at it. 
 
It's not a matter of logic, it's a matter of comparison between two events. You're trying to find bizarre ways to bypass Luke's limited comparison between Djo and a restrained ESB Vader and trying to apply it as a universal trait, which it isn't remotely akin to.

All those sources are not corroborated by Lucas or even Vader. 

1) Your Lucas source lacks the context I had to provide (Vader not having any intention of destroying Luke), and 2) Vader doesn't say that he was going all-out, just that he was aiming killing blows at Luke, which is a key element of Vader's fighting technique:

Darth Vader fought brilliantly, never employing anything less than a killing stroke. His intention was lethal. All he needed was one slip, one tiny gap in his opponent’s defenses.

-

It’s time for you to join them.” Vader closed the distance between them in a heartbeat, slashing left and right with potent vertical strokes, narrowly missing Shryne time and again, but destroying everything touched by the blade. No whirling now; no windmilling or deft lunges. He simply used his bulk and size to remain wedded to the floor. It was an old style, the very opposite of what was said to have been Dooku’s style, and Shryne had no defense against it. 

Vader's style focuses on lethal blows with every strike, even when holding back:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

-

Breathing heavily after a punishing round of blows, lightsaber lowered in submission, he knelt before his Master and prepared for the killing strike. He could feel the wrath radiating from the Dark Lord like heat—a visceral, angry heat that brought out his skin in gooseflesh. For a moment that seemed to stretch for years, all he could hear was the regular, implacable respiration that kept the man inside the mask alive. “You were weak when I found you.” The voice seemed to come from the far end of a long, deep tunnel. “You should never have survived my training.”

 He closed his eyes. He had heard these words before. They were the closest thing to a bedtime story he’d had as a child. The moral he had taken from them was burned into his mind: Learn … or die. Behind his eyelids he pictured again the clean, cleansing heat of the lightsaber. He had brushed his skin against it many times, defying the pain, and taken numerous small wounds while dueling with his Master. He imagined that he knew what the blade would feel like when it struck him down. Part of him longed for it. The lightsaber drifted so close to his neck that he could smell his hair burning.


-


Toying with the Jedi, he grazed Forte on the left shoulder, then on the right thigh; Kulka, he pierced lightly in the abdomen, then shaved away the esh on the right side of the Ho’Din’s face. Seeing the two Jedi Knights drop to their knees, wincing in pain, Padawan Klossi Anno broke from where she was helping Jambe and Nam engage the stormtroopers and got to Vader one step ahead of Starstone. Sidestepping, Vader slashed her across the back, sending her sprawling across the balcony; then he whirled on Forte and Kulka just as they were clambering to their feet and decapitated them. From behind Vader came Jambe and Nam, neither of whom was an experienced ghter and both of whom Vader immediately eliminated from the fight, amputating Jambe’s right arm, and Nam’s right leg.

Vader, whether he's holding back or not, always employs potentially killing or wounding strokes. In the case of Luke, when annoyed that turned into this:



So no, potentially lethal attacks do not mean you're going all out, especially if you're like Vader and they're a natural part of your fighting style. Otherwise, we can dismiss TCW Sidious vs Maul and Savage right off the bat:

Sidious raised his saber and flew at Maul, who parried desperately, his mechanical legs whirring as he sought to counter his former Master’s blows. Sidious’s sabers were a blur, a whirling cage of deadly plasma. Maul danced away from one blow, then reversed his movement to avoid another, and then there were too many to count, and then there were even more than that.
Maul’s saber spun out of his hand, bouncing away across the floor.


Not to mention this is a typical Sith approach to fighting, even when sparring, as seen with Sidious and Maul. Unless, that is, you believe it took all of Sidious' skill and power to best pre-TPM Maul?

While it’s heavily doubtful, it still supports my argument that Luke’s judgment on his father’s abilities is anything but reliable.

No it doesn't. Not even remotely. 

As an addendum, the idea that Teneniel’s feat is better than Vader’s is not at all unbelievable, as she scales directly above him.

 Please feel free to elaborate on this. 

This is true, but as I will further reiterate ater, Lucas notes Luke has become good enough to face Vader, period. Him fighting as hard as he could is a specific element of that fight, not about Luke in general. 

You've chosen to hand-wave what I've said. A Luke fighting his most bitter enemy is still clearly outmatched when his enemy isn't going beyond his standard fighting technique or exerting himself.

See my previous post for more sources regarding this. 

I would argue his inability to defend himself from Vader’s thrown objects would owe itself to his inexperience and lack of force knowledge, not vastly inferior power.

Doubt it. Luke with eight months of training is noted to be able to defend against two before being overwhelmed. You can just as easily argue that's due to a lack of power as you can a lack of knowledge/experience. 

Let’s not forget that Luke doesn’t learn to defend himself from a force choke, a fairy basic skill, until Dark Empire. 

Curious that Vader didn't ever exploit this if he was going all out, no?

This description is good and all, but an appeal to the viewer’s perception of the movie does little to help your point, as it’s not supported by the sources, as will be established soon. 

These are Lucas' words, not mine. He's discussing his intent with the fight. 

And here we come to a key point. True, Vader needs to test his son’s skills, but as indicated by Vader’s inner thoughts, he needed Luke to possess the necessary skill power that would eventually render him apt to join forces with Vader to overthrow the Emperor. Simply put, Vader needed his son to actually challenge him in a fight, which is what ultimately happened, as Vader himself can confirm. 

As I've already addressed, you're conflating a lethal fighting style with someone cutting loose and going all out. You might as well say Sidious needed to go all out to beat rage amped Maul. 

Note that Lucas was heavily involved in Shadows of the empire, so he might have even approved this, as it seems to be supported by the 1999 lightsaber featurette. 

Noted.

What is clear is that you don’t remember what Lucas actually says about Luke’s skills in the lightsaber featurette. Here is the whole video: 

I'm fully aware of the video. I'm also aware of the surrounding context and supplementary content, which you have chosen to ignore in favour of a single out of context Lucas quote and a Shadows book that adds little to your case. 

So, despite Lucas calling the fight somewhat close,

This has been addressed repeatedly throughout this post so I won't bother repeating myself. 

downright saying Luke has become good enough to give Vader

Also addressed.

and not mentioning him holding back

I didn't realise Lucas had said that Vader wanted Luke dead. I could have sworn he said that Luke "is Vader's hope" and that he needs him alive. My mistake

we assume he’s referring to a Vader who’s going easy on his son because the viewer’s perception of the fight suggests so? 

No. We know he's referring to Vader being clearly superior by a noticeable margin by him establishing that Vader needs Luke alive, the fight was constructed to give the impression that Lucas wanted (that of Luke being herded through different phases - lightsaber, Force, all out until the audience has zero hope that Luke can win), and that Vader was meant to be depicted not only by Lucas but also by Kershner as this character who's in control and forcing the protagonist through periods of suffering and agony in the name of the Hitchcockian Principle. 

Stop cherry picking Lucas' words. He's talking about he constructed the fight to give the audience a certain perception, meaning that Lucas wanted them to have that take-away from the fight.

BoD wrote:

The G Canon Purist wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:

Azronger wrote:

Decaf_Beverages wrote:Suited Prime Vader now has superior scaling. West End Games Supplemental Publications state that Coruscant Exar Kun and Ulic Quel Droma are roughly in the same ballpark of strength as Rebellion Era Emperor Palpatine and Vader, but less amicable towards each other.

If you take this to indicate Ulic = Vader and Exar = Sheev, the latter position has obviously been retconned into oblivion by Malak, Vitiate, and Sheev's numerous MVP statements (your quote is from 1998), leaving only Ulic = Vader as a plausible stance. Alternatively, the quote treats Vader and Sheev as a singular unit in terms of strength - or in other words, they're in the same tier - but then that would make the tier itself have an incalculably wide range, so Ulic and Exar's exact placements are entirely nebulous. I don't think it's a very concrete statement.

Sheev's position in relation to Kun is irrelevant for my argument in this thread, if Prime Ulic = Vader is indeed a plausible stance

Gonna need to see that certified by someone who speaks French, and get a better translation. I don't trust you or Ant 

Ils jouent dans le même cour que Vador et Palpatine = They play in the same court (ballpark) than (as) Vader and Palpatine.

Et sont plutôt moins aimables qu-eux = and are rather less friendly/kind than them. 

Laissez tomber les caractéristiques = Let go these characteristics.

The translation is clumsy and hard to put into specific English words without potentially twisting the context or the meaning. It's also unclear from that cropped image in what regard they're in the same ballpark as Vader/Palpatine.

I did provide context many times as to the translation. If anyone wants to dispute my translation, they can, unless its some garbage take by someone that speaks no french and put it through google translate. But the image isn't cropped. If you want the whole section (it was a stat block section, for example it told the users to take ESB Luke's statblock for basic Jedi from the Movie Trilogy Sourcebook) of the page, here it is. When Ulic/Exar get brought up, they claim (in the area specifically talking about stats) they are in the same court as the Emperor and Vader.

Im really not sure how the meaning could be anything else except combative ability given that the section of the supplement is literally talking about combative abilities. Especially given the meanings I have provided for the "in the same court" phrase 

@Decaf_Beverages I wasn't accusing you. I was just saying it was hard to know without the surrounding context. It's definitely talking about some form of power, probably Force power.

I feel like I’m in a merry go round regarding Vader.

Zenwolf wrote:I feel like I’m in a merry go round regarding Vader.

In what sense?

Zenwolf wrote:I feel like I’m in a merry go round regarding Vader.

interesting

@BoD

Vader's style focuses on lethal blows with every strike, even when holding back:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

Vader wasn't holding back in either of these examples, though.  

Banite scaling is MURKY in my opinion.

Irrespective of the hype and the benefit of doubt Darth Tenebrous receive from Banite scaling in theory, he could not take care of heavy debris falling over him much like Lord Kas'im when in the same boat.

While Darth Tenebrous killed his mentor without much difficulty, circumstances of this clash are unclear, and abilities of his mentor are also unclear.

Darth Vader is an accomplished warrior with impressive demonstrations of raw power on the other hand.

BoD wrote:

Zenwolf wrote:I feel like I’m in a merry go round regarding Vader.

In what sense?

In regards to all...of this going on. Like it's always the same arguments and quotes, etc being brought up time and time again.

"GL says this and this!" "Quotes say this and this!" 

For like...the hundredth time across all these threads(here and elsewhere), all the same back and forth, back and forth.

If no one can come to at least maybe a compromise, then....what's the point? Clearly no one is swaying anyone, no matter how many times this is brought forth.

Hey I introduced new quotes

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:@BoD

Vader's style focuses on lethal blows with every strike, even when holding back:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

Vader wasn't holding back in either of these examples, though.  

By "holding back" I mean not trying to kill. There's a clear difference between this Vader - who when considerably pre-prime keeps in step with SK and moves as a blur and with enough skill and ferocity to be likened to the ancient Sith - and the one Luke fought.

@BoD

By "holding back" I mean not trying to kill.

Fair enough.

There's a clear difference between this Vader - who when considerably pre-prime keeps in step with SK and moves as a blur and with enough skill and ferocity to be likened to the ancient Sith - and the one Luke fought.

Why exactly?

BoD wrote:

Set, The God of Chaos wrote:@BoD

Vader's style focuses on lethal blows with every strike, even when holding back:

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader’s armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn’t absorb it.

-

They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked.

Vader wasn't holding back in either of these examples, though.  

By "holding back" I mean not trying to kill. There's a clear difference between this Vader - who when considerably pre-prime keeps in step with SK and moves as a blur and with enough skill and ferocity to be likened to the ancient Sith - and the one Luke fought.

What is that source from? And how in the world does it liken Vader to the Ancients? 

If anything its just referring to the way Sith Lords traditionally did battle against eachother

@Decaf_Beverages

What is that source from? And how in the world does it liken Vader to the Ancients?

It's from the TFU 2 Novelization.

If anything its just referring to the way Sith Lords traditionally did battle against eachother

I agree.

TFU 2 wrote:They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire

Seems like a direct comparison to me tbh with you. it's saying they fought in a manner like the elder sith once did, not that they fought a lot like ancient sith did.

it's especially telling since the context is of the narrator first describing the duel after Vader ragdolled SK off the spire. So what it's saying in the description is that they (Vader and Starkiller) are fighting alike to the sith lords of old.

feel free to dispute it though, I have no stake in that, if anything that lowers Vader and SK since Ancients suck balls 

Tenebrous wins, even on Vader's best day. Tenebrous has amazing scaling given his position as the third to last "true" banite Sith. Vader and Dooku may be Banites, though nether receives banite scaling (Tenebrous does). Sidious stated himself in the book of Sith that he was the last recipient of the banite evolution. 

Book of Sith wrote:"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient" - Sidious

Tenebrous is only a couple generations away from the final evolution of the banite line (Sidious). Tenebrous also has scaling over other banite Sith that have immense power, like Darth Ramage, who was capable of manipulating time with the force and in general was hyped to be an extremely powerful Sith lord.

Tenebrous >>> Bane

Tenebrous > Suited Vader

SnowxElf wrote:Tenebrous wins, even on Vader's best day. Tenebrous has amazing scaling given his position as the third to last "true" banite Sith. Vader and Dooku may be Banites, though nether receives banite scaling (Tenebrous does). Sidious stated himself in the book of Sith that he was the last recipient of the banite evolution. 

Book of Sith wrote:"Bane's power has been passed down for a thousand years. I vow to be its last recipient" - Sidious

Tenebrous is only a couple generations away from the final evolution of the banite line (Sidious). Tenebrous also has scaling over other banite Sith that have immense power, like Darth Ramage, who was capable of manipulating time with the force and in general was hyped to be an extremely powerful Sith lord.

Tenebrous >>> Bane

Tenebrous > Suited Vader

tenebrous > suicidal ass vader who killed sheev confirmed. tenebrous > sheev > tenebrous

this is the time when i realized SI is a lost cause

The lord of hunger wrote:this is the time when i realized SI is a lost cause

How so?

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:this is the time when i realized SI is a lost cause

How so?

lowballing not only for vader but also for other characters

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:this is the time when i realized SI is a lost cause

How so?

lowballing not only for vader but also for other characters

That’s often the case on debating forums, that some characters gets ”lowballed”

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Seturna wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:this is the time when i realized SI is a lost cause

How so?

lowballing not only for vader but also for other characters

That’s often the case on debating forums, that some characters gets ”lowballed”

not always that happen especially on other debating stuff