Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime)

May 5th 2019, 12:13 pm

Standard rules.Who wins between these Sith titans?

Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime) Nxpn3b10

Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime) 48394710

May 5th 2019, 12:51 pm

Vader wins in the fight of his life.

May 5th 2019, 1:23 pm

I'm not convinced that Vader could beat prime Maul.

May 5th 2019, 2:49 pm

Vader slaps him after a good fight.

May 5th 2019, 3:11 pm

SithSauce wrote:Vader wins in the fight of his life.

May 5th 2019, 4:18 pm

I'm pretty sure Maul can stomp Ki-Adi-Mundi, but since Vader apparently can't, Maul should crush him too.

May 5th 2019, 4:23 pm

Going by high-end showings Vader.

May 5th 2019, 4:40 pm

Azronger wrote:I'm pretty sure Maul can stomp Ki-Adi-Mundi, but since Vader apparently can't, Maul should crush him too.

Clever.

And now that my finals are over, I'll be able to get back to you over the next few days in the Thanaton and Vader debates.

May 5th 2019, 5:35 pm

Kilius wrote:Going by high-end showings Vader.

Not sure why you keep making out that there is some what of a substantial difference between OT Vader and Pre OT Vader. Vader has stated to have grown more powerful in the OT. Even if pre OT Vader has more feats, that does not mean he is superior to his OT incarnation. It's just he wasn't exposed as much in the OT. The OT isn't a medium where Vader can have great feats since the Jedi are all gone. And in terms of "low showings". He has some for sure. But most of them occurred when he was just getting used to his suit.

May 5th 2019, 6:22 pm

Vader is like around the scout the padawan spectrum.
Maul lost to pirates.
You decide.

May 5th 2019, 6:55 pm

Either way tbh.

May 5th 2019, 7:51 pm

Vader, brutal fight.

May 5th 2019, 7:58 pm

Main problem for me is that Vader's growth from ANH to RotJ is pretty unquantifiable.

May 5th 2019, 8:07 pm

Vader. Excellent fight.

May 5th 2019, 10:50 pm

[quote="DeadlyJedi"]

Kilius wrote:Going by high-end showings Vader.

It's just he wasn't exposed as much in the OT. wrote:

It's not a matter of him not having feats, it's him having poor showings against named characters we would expect him to be solidly above if we buy the quotes of him being more powerful than Anakin, RotS Kenobi, as well as Maul and Dooku.

So Vader grew "far more formidable" by ESB. Yippee. Too bad according to the very next sentence he still "lacks the advanced polish of lifelong masters." So in essence when you weigh the context of the entire source of Vader's growth, he went from "shadow of his former self in ANH" to not quite "the advanced polish of lifelong masters" in ESB. And based on his none too stellar performances against ANH Kenobi and TPM Maul I don't see any reason not to see him as a shadow of his former self.

May 6th 2019, 3:39 am

SithArchaeologist wrote:

Azronger wrote:I'm pretty sure Maul can stomp Ki-Adi-Mundi, but since Vader apparently can't, Maul should crush him too.

Clever.

And now that my finals are over, I'll be able to get back to you over the next few days in the Thanaton and Vader debates.

Sounds good. Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime) 1289255181

May 6th 2019, 5:20 am

Kilius wrote:

DeadlyJedi wrote:

Kilius wrote:Going by high-end showings Vader.

It's not a matter of him not having feats, it's him having poor showings against named characters we would expect him to be solidly above if we buy the quotes of him being more powerful than Anakin, RotS Kenobi, as well as Maul and Dooku.

So Vader grew "far more formidable" by ESB. Yippee. Too bad according to the very next sentence he still "lacks the advanced polish of lifelong masters." So in essence when you weigh the context of the entire source of Vader's growth, he went from "shadow of his former self in ANH" to not quite "the advanced polish of lifelong masters" in ESB. And based on his none too stellar performances against ANH Kenobi and TPM Maul I don't see any reason not to see him as a shadow of his former self.

Sure he may lack the advanced polish of lifelong masters. But who in specfically? By advanced masters, I'm assuming it isn't referring to say Kit Fisto, Agen Kolar or Saesee Tiin. Also this doesn't mean those said masters are better than Vader at duelling. Cin
Drallig is one of the most dedicated and polished swordsman in the history of the jedi order. So is Kas'im. But those 2 characters would lose solidly to the likes of Darth Maul or Obi Wan. And both Kas'im and Drallig know more forms than Kenobi and Maul. The full quote also praises Vader's use of Djem So which can very well make up for his lack of polish. Same with Kenobi's use of soresu or Maul's use of Juyo.

May 6th 2019, 5:38 am

@TheLittleGreenFriend

You're correct in that technical skill isn't the only factor (which is obvious anyway), but apart from that there's a few bones to pick with what you said:

1. Depends on what you mean by "better at dueling". If we're talking about dueling skill without taking into consideration augmentation, people like Cin Drallig, Qui-Gon, Ki-Adi Mundi, Windu or Yoda are far superior. These are the polished masters the quote is referring to.

2. Proof that Drallig and Kas'im know more forms than Maul? Because all the hard evidence indicates that Maul has mastered every lightsaber form, in addition to mastering the saberstaff.

3. As if Maul lacked any polish in his lightsaber dueling.

May 6th 2019, 9:38 pm

Vader murder stomps

May 6th 2019, 9:46 pm

I mean, the lacking polish thing seems to building on the old school theme of "OT consists of old men, inexperienced boys and broken half-machine men - a shadow of what the PT duelists had been." It really would not surprise me if Maul won a pure duel against Vader but I'm always willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

May 6th 2019, 9:48 pm

It also has grounds in the sources. Maul mastered every lightsaber form, Anakin never did. Vader by extension probably didn't either. At least, there's no direct evidence I know of that he did. Maul definitely has a marked edge in technical skill.

May 6th 2019, 9:50 pm

Vader's durability and Force power could give him the win here, but in a raw lightsaber fight, I think Maul would take it. I'm open to putting them on the same level as swordsmen, but Vader's suit restricts his mobility and it's been repeatedly cited as a balancing factor against other hindrances like Obi-Wan's old age or Luke's inexperience. Maul has no such hindrances, so he should take a straight-up lightsaber duel.

May 7th 2019, 2:04 am

ILS wrote:I mean, the lacking polish thing seems to building on the old school theme of "OT consists of old men, inexperienced boys and broken half-machine men - a shadow of what the PT duelists had been." It really would not surprise me if Maul won a pure duel against Vader but I'm always willing to hear arguments to the contrary.

Personally I take that quote as hyperbole. Lucas is basically talking about the improvement in lightsaber choreography from the OT to the PT. If we are going to take that quote literally, then TPM Kenobi>Vader in duelling or even worse Coleman Trebor>Vader in duelling ( which quite frankly is absurd to say the least). Sure the part about Vader being broken is true.
But then theres this, "OT consists of old men".
Guess what? The PT also consisted of old men (Dooku, Qui Gon ,Yoda, Sidious etc.)
This lacks context. And Luke as of ROTJ is a fully fledged jedi knight who is seen choking two of Jabba's guards with the flick of his finger, and was confirmed to have completed his training. So he isn't exactly a boy nor is he "half trained" as Lucas claims

May 7th 2019, 2:20 am

Nova wrote:Vader's durability and Force power could give him the win here, but in a raw lightsaber fight, I think Maul would take it. I'm open to putting them on the same level as swordsmen, but Vader's suit restricts his mobility and it's been repeatedly cited as a balancing factor against other hindrances like Obi-Wan's old age or Luke's inexperience. Maul has no such hindrances, so he should take a straight-up lightsaber duel.

I can't see how Vader's lack of mobility suggests he would lose in a saber fight. He can and has made up for that weakness several times. Not to mention we have already seen a Pre prime Vader contend with (and defeat) Maul.

May 7th 2019, 3:38 am

@SithSauce I didn't say he couldn't make up for it, but "making up" in of itself suggests that it is a weakness, as Lucas, Fightsaber, Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force etc. have mentioned on various occasions. While Vader has circumvented that factor before, it's always been against plainly lesser enemies. Against opponents on his level, like Ben Kenobi and Luke Skywalker, he relied on them having equivalent hindrances (old age/lack of practice and inexperience, respectively) to cancel out his own weaknesses. Maul does not have such a hindrance, hence I find it more likely for him to emerge as the victor here.

My assumption here is that Maul is on Vader's level in terms of raw prowess with a blade, which you're welcome to disprove. But I think it'd be quite difficult, given Vader's feats are primarily pre-ANH and we know then that he was only on par with a "pale shadow" of RotS Obi-Wan in lightsaber skill. Maul at his best is around Obi-Wan's calibre, meaning that he should be able to defeat a "pale shadow" of RotS Obi-Wan pretty swiftly. I'm generous in interpreting Vader's substantial improvements after ANH as bringing him up to Maul's grade, which is hard to prove when Vader doesn't have a lot of non-circular feats (like his fights with Luke, who depends on him for scaling anyway).

Maul was pre-prime in that fight as well, and Vader lost the actual sword contest in that fight. He won by exploiting his durability, which I mentioned as a factor for why he could win here.

Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime)

Darth Maul (prime) vs. Darth Vader (suit prime)

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