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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 4 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 28th 2020, 4:46 pm
Definition of a novice: a person who is not experienced in a job or situation.
OT Luke seems to fit this definition perfectly. He didn't have a lot of training and had barely completed his training by the time he fought Vader on the second Death Star.

The same can be said for everyone I've posted above. Savage wasn't even properly trained, Kenobi was still a padawan, and Hondo is a drunk pirate.

I am aware Luke has recently been getting OP feats within the comics but it seems a bit like damage control to justify Vader's loss to him in RotJ despite him being so powerful. And I really don't like how they have to massively inflate the power of a very inexperienced Jedi in order to fix this.
We should just agree to disagree on this. I don't like the idea of Vader being the Star Wars version of the God Emperor of Mankind whereas you seem to think otherwise.

Fair enough. I actually really dislike Canon Vader both as a character and in regards to his current placement. Even in Legends, the highest I have him is slightly above Dooku, and that fluctuates by the day.
Nute_Chethray
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December 28th 2020, 4:53 pm
@Underachiever599 wrote:Just feel like chipping in on the whole Luke discussion. RotJ Luke should hardly be considered a "novice." In both Legends and Canon, he had spent 4 years straight engaged in constant warfare against an opponent that had vastly superior numbers and resources. This gives Luke more active combat experience than most Clone Wars-era Jedi (The Clone Wars lasted for 3 years, and the typical role of the Jedi before then meant they very seldom saw actually warfare in that era).

Couple that with the number of lightsaber duels he had engaged in, in either Canon and Legends, and he technically has more experience in live duels than most Prequel-era Jedi as well (with live lightsaber duels being extremely uncommon due to how rare it was for the Jedi to encounter opposition wielding lightsabers as well). In Canon, Luke has fought Kreel 4 times, the Grand Inquisitor once, and Vader at least 3, for a total of 8 duels. In Legends, Luke fought Kharys once, Tagge twice, Morne once, Vader at least 3 times, and I'm sure I'm missing a couple more examples, for a minimum of 7.

Most Jedi outside of the main characters didn't have nearly that many lightsaber duels throughout their whole career. So to call RotJ Luke a "novice" is pretty disingenuous when he technically has more combat experience than the average Clone Wars-era Jedi. Luke is only a novice when it comes to knowledge and wisdom, as his training in those aspects was sorely limited at the time of RotJ. But in all other regards, Luke is an extremely accomplished war veteran by RotJ. Couple that with his Skywalker lineage, and George's statement about RotJ Luke being his "full, mature self," "ready to take on his final challenge [Vader]" and it's pretty clear that Luke's victory over Vader was entirely due to Luke's own merit as a warrior.
In addition to this I want to add that both in legends and canon Luke gets consistently taught by multiple living masters including Ben's ghost, in canon he had access to a whole chamber full of jedi holocrons, he has had to face multiple esoteric forceusers which gives a much more varied knowledge of the force, etc.

So yeah. 4 years of constant battle, training and life-or-death situations, many of which he had to rely solely on his own abilities while prequel jedi usually were in duos or with entire armies covering them. 

This is completely ignoring that he is Luke Skywalker, the son of the chosen one who posesses a great part of his power in the force. Him being exceptionally talented and powerful is not only plausible, it should be expected.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 28th 2020, 5:19 pm
where is ISV when i need him to post "luke is the strongest jedi" quotes.
Vaelias
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December 28th 2020, 7:12 pm
Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically, and his word doesnt count for canon, being sub Jinn would also mean Sub TPM Maul, yet we see him smack Asoka whom was able to Stalemate S7 Maul who is far more powerful than TPM Maul when she was far weaker than she was when Vader Rekt her

Canon: ROTJ Vader >>> ANH Vader > Rebels Vader >> Rebels Asoka >>> S7 Maul > S7 Asoka > SOD Maul >> TPM Maul > Jinn
Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader
Zenwolf
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December 28th 2020, 7:58 pm
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

Where exactly did he say this?
BreakofDawn
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December 28th 2020, 8:37 pm
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically, and his word doesnt count for canon, being sub Jinn would also mean Sub TPM Maul, yet we see him smack Asoka whom was able to Stalemate S7 Maul who is far more powerful than TPM Maul when she was far weaker than she was when Vader Rekt her

Canon:  ROTJ Vader >>> ANH Vader >  Rebels Vader >> Rebels Asoka >>> S7 Maul > S7 Asoka > SOD Maul >> TPM Maul > Jinn
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

He said that 20 years ago. We've had countless examples of that no longer being the case through the actual material. Some debaters just like to point out how Lucas has never explicitly contradicted that (he's never openly contradicted a lot of things).
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December 30th 2020, 5:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
I don't understand why people dislike idea of strong Vader. In my country all fans who don't investigate SW believes that Vader is the strongest vilain in SW, or second only to Emperor. The thought that he is powerful does not detract from his tragedy, because even with greater strength, he still feels only emptiness and nothing else. His strength is the only thing he possesses, but he cannot change anything with it. All his mistakes are irreparable, and for me it is logical that the chosen one, whose only feeling is anger, became stronger after Mustafar. His suffering fueled him and made him more destructive than ever before. For me it fits this character much more than idea of crippled man from Lucas. He got what he chose during his last meeting with Padme and his former master and it was a wrong choice.Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 4 A_202022
Zenwolf
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December 30th 2020, 5:15 pm
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I don't have an issue with a strong Vader at all, because clearly in both Continuities he was strong. Him being strong didn't take away from the fact he was a crippled, tragic figure.
Vaelias
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December 30th 2020, 5:22 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically, and his word doesnt count for canon, being sub Jinn would also mean Sub TPM Maul, yet we see him smack Asoka whom was able to Stalemate S7 Maul who is far more powerful than TPM Maul when she was far weaker than she was when Vader Rekt her

Canon:  ROTJ Vader >>> ANH Vader >  Rebels Vader >> Rebels Asoka >>> S7 Maul > S7 Asoka > SOD Maul >> TPM Maul > Jinn
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

He said that 20 years ago. We've had countless examples of that no longer being the case through the actual material. Some debaters just like to point out how Lucas has never explicitly contradicted that (he's never openly contradicted a lot of things).

20 years or 2 weeks hes still George Lucas lol and Maul is still far more powerful
Vaelias
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December 30th 2020, 5:25 pm
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@Zenwolf wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

Where exactly did he say this?

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 4 11859512
well here is Maul being far more powerful

Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything.
Star Wars Insider Magazine #88

Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.
Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

the whole goal with TPM was to show Sith and Jedi when they were stronger


The lord of hunger
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December 30th 2020, 5:43 pm
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lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 30th 2020, 5:52 pm
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@Zenwolf wrote:I don't have an issue with a strong Vader at all, because clearly in both Continuities he was strong. Him being strong didn't take away from the fact he was a crippled, tragic figure.
its not even that tbh. they couldve made him even stronger for all the care- the point is that he is never as strong as sheev, and can never make his true wishes come true with the power he has.
Zenwolf
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December 30th 2020, 7:44 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

Where exactly did he say this?

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 4 11859512
well here is Maul being far more powerful

Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything.
Star Wars Insider Magazine #88

Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.
Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

the whole goal with TPM was to show Sith and Jedi when they were stronger



So he didn't say specifically Jinn was. But even then, all these here? Well you realize that Vader in both Continuities was destroying PT era Jedi right?

Going by these quotes here, seeing as it's speaking in a generalized sense, the Jedi that Vader encountered later in life should have mopped the floor with him, it wouldn't matter who they are since these quotes are talking in general.

Yet...no Vader destroys them, meaning if going by these quotes, he's superior to the Jedi and Sith who are at the top of their game.
BreakofDawn
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December 30th 2020, 8:03 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:Cos Lucas said hes sub Jinn basically, and his word doesnt count for canon, being sub Jinn would also mean Sub TPM Maul, yet we see him smack Asoka whom was able to Stalemate S7 Maul who is far more powerful than TPM Maul when she was far weaker than she was when Vader Rekt her

Canon:  ROTJ Vader >>> ANH Vader >  Rebels Vader >> Rebels Asoka >>> S7 Maul > S7 Asoka > SOD Maul >> TPM Maul > Jinn
                                                                                                                                                                                 Legends: TPM Maul > Jinn >>> ROTJ Vader

He said that 20 years ago. We've had countless examples of that no longer being the case through the actual material. Some debaters just like to point out how Lucas has never explicitly contradicted that (he's never openly contradicted a lot of things).

20 years or 2 weeks hes still George Lucas lol and Maul is still far more powerful

@Vaelias By that logic, Sidious < Vader in sabers via Yoda scaling who's < Vader according to Lucas, no? Likewise, ANH Sidious ~ Ben Kenobi, correct?

If you're relying on 20-year-old quotes which clearly aren't consistent with the continuity generated over the last 50 years, then there's clearly an issue there. Lucas was heavily involved in material involving PT era Jedi such as TFU, where the clear intent was that Vader was significantly above characters like Shaak Ti (a senior Council member). Likewise, he was very protective of the post-ROTS period, even implementing off-limit guardrails until ROTS was released and then advising authors on what they could and could not do. That's on top of personally checking off anything to do with significant film characters.

However, since you like Lucas quotes so much, you might be interested to know that Lucas used Vader as a comparison for Maul:

I wanted to come up with an apprentice for the Emperor who was striking and tough. We hadn’t seen a Sith Lord before, except for Vader, of course.

And indicating that Sith Lords such as Vader and Maul are capable of killing these characters:

I wanted to convey the idea that Jedi are all very powerful, but they’re also vulnerable — which is why I wanted to kill Qui-Gon. That is to say, “Hey, these guys aren’t Superman.” These guys are people who are vulnerable, just like every other person.

That's not to mention the infamous "maybe 20 per cent less than the Emperor" - indicating that Vader is significantly weaker but still immensely powerful regardless of the percentage - and comparing Vader to both Maul and Dooku.
S_W_LeGenD
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December 31st 2020, 4:02 am
I am not a fan of how Disney is shaping the Star Wars lore lately TBH. There are a few gems (e.g. Rogue One - A Star Wars Story) but Disney have ruined much while expanding on the lore including Palpatine and Luke Skywalker - many are less than impressed with ST for instance. If you are rebooting a saga, then make it better than before with considerable deliberations and respect the original themes. People never learn unfortunately. Look at the Terminator franchise - disaster.

Darth Vader doesn't need to be a super-strong Force-user to be regarded as an iconic villain. Look at Joker (vs. Batman) and Lex Luther (vs. Superman). There is no sense of danger to Darth Vader in virtually any environment in CANON - he goes everywhere and punks everything in his path. This is fan-servicing at the expense of compelling storytelling. Even in the SWTOR content, characters aren't a one-man show all the time and there are situations in which operations are carried out.

There is no check and balance anymore with unusual hype being bestowed to existing characters in the sourcebooks and contradictions are already creeping in [one source advances Mace Windu as best and another source advances Yoda as best]. Rinse and repeat. There is the possibility of another round of the ancients >  modern in CANON when the time comes to expand in this direction [fingers crossed]. The Ones exist in CANON for starters. Disney should have done away with supremacy quotes for all characters and encouraged authentic creativity and compelling stories. If (or when) there is a need to establish a giant for the lore, then take your time and make it logical.
The lord of hunger
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December 31st 2020, 12:42 pm
guess we have another lobenzo right here boys
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January 1st 2021, 10:13 am
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The Star Wars films are about the Skywalkers, so Disney wants to make sure everyone knows how powerful Darth Vader is.
BreakofDawn
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January 1st 2021, 10:23 am
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^ To add to the above, Disney are playing a clever game. Whereas Legends focused on a multitude of characters (including ones that make Vader look pathetic in comparison), Disney knows that Vader is and probably always will be the most famous SW character of all time. Heavily featuring him and showcasing his power attracts different people, particularly kids and teenagers who are naturally drawn to Vader.


Last edited by BreakofDawn on January 1st 2021, 8:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
Galan007
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January 1st 2021, 8:13 pm
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This is just my opinion, but I honestly think the majority of people(at least from a battleboard perspective) have an issue with Vader being as powerful as he is, because they tend to draw a direct comparison between canon and Legends...be it consciously or subconsciously...which I understand to a point.

Prior to Disney taking over, EU/"Legends" content is really all there was outside of the main films for 40ish years. So due to the hyper-abundance of preexisting EU material(which obviously had a massive fanbase, and droves of avid followers), a lot of people(including myself) had a LOT of preconceived notions regarding character power-levels/placements/standings when Disney took the reigns to the franchise.

But you have to remember: canon and Legends are two completely separate things now -- nothing about Legends "counts" anymore(not even comments from GL himself are necessarily canon nowadays.) Granted, Legends material is still there for Disney to pull certain elements from IF they choose to, but outside of the primary films and TCW, the post-2014 franchise was essentially a blank slate. That being said, Disney is free do whatever they want with SW continuity(good or bad) without having to take anything about Legends into consideration.

So if they want canon ANH Vader to be stronger than he was during RotS, then that's just how it is. He no longer needs to be capped at sub-RotS levels(or w/e) to accommodate Legends lore.

tl;dr
You really have to be able to turn off the Legends side of your brain(which I still find difficult, tbh) in order to accept anything about new canon. It just makes things easier in the long run.
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January 2nd 2021, 5:23 pm
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@Galan007 wrote:This is just my opinion, but I honestly think the majority of people(at least from a battleboard perspective) have an issue with Vader being as powerful as he is, because they tend to draw a direct comparison between canon and Legends...be it consciously or subconsciously...which I understand to a point.

Prior to Disney taking over, EU/"Legends" content is really all there was outside of the main films for 40ish years. So due to the hyper-abundance of preexisting EU material(which obviously had a massive fanbase, and droves of avid followers), a lot of people(including myself) had a LOT of preconceived notions regarding character power-levels/placements/standings when Disney took the reigns to the franchise.

But you have to remember: canon and Legends are two completely separate things now -- nothing about Legends "counts" anymore(not even comments from GL himself are necessarily canon nowadays.) Granted, Legends material is still there for Disney to pull certain elements from IF they choose to, but outside of the primary films and TCW, the post-2014 franchise was essentially a blank slate. That being said, Disney is free do whatever they want with SW continuity(good or bad) without having to take anything about Legends into consideration.

So if they want canon ANH Vader to be stronger than he was during RotS, then that's just how it is. He no longer needs to be capped at sub-RotS levels(or w/e) to accommodate Legends lore.

tl;dr
You really have to be able to turn off the Legends side of your brain(which I still find difficult, tbh) in order to accept anything about new canon. It just makes things easier in the long run.

arguably most consistent post i have seen on this thread.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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January 2nd 2021, 8:29 pm
was it lucas who said that he didnt want a lot of shit from legends to happen, but happened anyhow?
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January 2nd 2021, 8:54 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:was it lucas who said that he didnt want a lot of shit from legends to happen, but happened anyhow?

Yes, which is why his word isn't exactly viable even back then, cause he either contradicted later, or the authors didn't follow it anyway. Or what he said was vague that it doesn't even matter anyway with what the authors did sooo....yeah.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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January 2nd 2021, 9:45 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:was it lucas who said that he didnt want a lot of shit from legends to happen, but happened anyhow?

Yes, which is why his word isn't exactly viable even back then, cause he either contradicted later, or the authors didn't follow it anyway. Or what he said was vague that it doesn't even matter anyway with what the authors did sooo....yeah.
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January 2nd 2021, 9:53 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:was it lucas who said that he didnt want a lot of shit from legends to happen, but happened anyhow?

Yes, which is why his word isn't exactly viable even back then, cause he either contradicted later, or the authors didn't follow it anyway. Or what he said was vague that it doesn't even matter anyway with what the authors did sooo....yeah.
Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 4 39523600

The only thing I can recall from Lucas that the authors seemed to follow, was the PT era being the prime of the Jedi. Anything else....I can't really think of that the authors didn't really follow. Lucas' word of Vader being weaker than Palpatine and only 80% or whatever....doesn't really mean anything, because....Vader could still grow in power regardless and Sidious could still be above him anyway. Vader's potential was squandered sure....but it again means nothing because regardless, he was never going to reach it anyway.

Meaning anyone could write Vader as moving a damn star with TK and guess what? That still wouldn't mean anything that he reached his potential or surpassed Palpatine, because he's still serving and under Palpatine and dies to him anyway.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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January 3rd 2021, 12:56 am
so when u gonna be done with that vader respect blog then?
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