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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 2:20 pm
@SnowxElf wrote:Lucas wanted Anakin pre-suit to be > Suited-Vader, which makes a lot more sense. Then a bunch of writers came along and thought they needed to state Suited-Vader was more powerful for some reason.
i mean, it makes sense to have a such a fodder as ur right hand man, right? specially when even by the movies themselves, he is the most feared thing in the galaxy bar like, none. that for sure makes sense to me. im sure those same authors would agree too. thats why they made him so fodder in those comics, games, and novels. cuz it made sense. chosen one? pff, more like chosen to be fodder smh
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 2:21 pm
@Galan007 wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:Soo...basically the same as before.

Anyway there's lesser characters now? The generalized scaling is lower? Take your pick, thus the rankings are gonna be different.
The starting point for Vader in particular is lower in canon, sure.

In Legends, RotS Anakin/Vader has some of the greatest accolades of any character in the mythos... But he isn't nearly as wanked in canon.
his starting point in canon is yeeting sheev. his starting point in legends is literally the most opposite of that as it can get.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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December 17th 2020, 2:32 pm
Besides what others said, another difference is that Lucas regards his films—the on-screen visuals and choreography and all—as True Canon. The fact the original trilogy was made in 1977, 1980, and 1983 is irrelevant. Meanwhile, Disney explicitly regards the films as canon events distorted on a film medium and limited by OOU factors. Their “True Canon” isn’t the films but something else. So, you can get Vader > Maul or Anakin under Disney but not under Lucas.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 2:34 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Besides what others said, another difference is that Lucas regards his films—the on-screen visuals and choreography and all—as True Canon. The fact the original trilogy was made in 1977, 1980, and 1983 is irrelevant. Meanwhile, Disney explicitly regards the films as canon events distorted on a film medium and limited by OOU factors. Their “True Canon” isn’t the films but something else. So, you can get Vader > Maul or Anakin under Disney but not under Lucas.
ngl, dont get what u meant by those first like, 3 sentences? can u reiterate?
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 2:35 pm
Lucas thinks Vader is only as strong and fast as he appears on film. Disney thinks Vader can actually be way stronger and faster and that the film is just limited and dated.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 2:37 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Lucas thinks Vader is only as strong and fast as he appears on film. Disney thinks Vader can actually be way stronger and faster and that the film is just limited and old.
if we go by that, isnt someone like sheev as fast vader then, if not much slower?
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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December 17th 2020, 2:39 pm
Palpatine cuts down three Jedi Masters in three seconds
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 17th 2020, 2:42 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Palpatine cuts down three Jedi Masters in three seconds
sure, but still cant react to vader, so fuck that.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 17th 2020, 2:51 pm
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L O B E N Z O
Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

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December 17th 2020, 2:54 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Lucas thinks Vader is only as strong and fast as he appears on film. Disney thinks Vader can actually be way stronger and faster and that the film is just limited and dated.

@Darthant66 Not sure if I agree with that. In Rogue One we see him go to town on some Rebel troopers and they showcase his slow, strength based aggressive fighting style, very reminiscent of the OT when he takes each trooper down with his saber.
Not to mention in Rebels, he very much fights with the same style as seen in the OT, even when contending with a fast, prequel style duelist in Ahsoka. I think part of the reason why he is powerful as he is in canon, because the fanbase would flip their shit if he wasn't. That's natural with every fan favourite character.
Let's be honest the mere mention of Ahsoka being>>>Vader would make Star Wars fans want to murder Dave Filoni lol
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
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December 17th 2020, 2:55 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Lucas thinks Vader is only as strong and fast as he appears on film. Disney thinks Vader can actually be way stronger and faster and that the film is just limited and dated.

I mean that was the case before too, Vader was certainly faster than what he appeared on screen, Disney or not. Lucas' word really only applies to the movies.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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December 17th 2020, 3:00 pm
@Mystery: Disney retains his “slow, heavy, calculated strikes” style from the original trilogy, true, but they also ramp it up in all respects so that it’s competitive or greater than the prequel trilogy duelists. Meanwhile, Lucas figures prominent prequel trilogy duelists would just run circles around Vader in speed or skill.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on December 17th 2020, 3:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
DarthAnt66
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 3:01 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Lucas thinks Vader is only as strong and fast as he appears on film. Disney thinks Vader can actually be way stronger and faster and that the film is just limited and dated.

I mean that was the case before too, Vader was certainly faster than what he appeared on screen, Disney or not. Lucas' word really only applies to the movies.

In some ways. Another thing with Legends is that Lucas and the films override any lesser works whereas all is equal under Disney.
Zenwolf
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December 17th 2020, 3:07 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:

Another thing with Legends is that Lucas and the films override any lesser works.

Which really doesn't mean anything considering the authors worked around the foundation. Also the authors didn't exactly have to follow Lucas' word and he approved stuff that they sent them.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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December 17th 2020, 3:08 pm
In Legends, the true power-levels are those expressed by Lucas and the films per LFL. Some of comic, novel, and game portrayals of Vader are just exaggerated and need to be scaled down.
Zenwolf
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 3:11 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:In Legends, the true power-levels are those expressed by Lucas and the films per LFL. Some of comic, novel, and game portrayals of Vader are just exaggerated and need to be scaled down.

Yeah, the movies are separate from the EU as Lucas himself has stated, I mean the movies didn't make it a point to showcase Vader's true power anyway, so who's to say he wasn't really powerful as what other works portrayed? The authors didn't have to follow what he said or what the movies showed Vader or any other character for that matter as. The movies are just the foundation to be built upon. They were basically given a sandbox, a shovel and a bucket to go play in and expand the universe.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 17th 2020, 4:30 pm
thats why numerous other jobs exist with other characters that barely showed his true power on the movies too not just vader
Zenwolf
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December 17th 2020, 4:34 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:thats why numerous other jobs exist with other characters that barely showed his true power on the movies too not just vader

Other jobs?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 17th 2020, 4:52 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:thats why numerous other jobs exist with other characters that barely showed his true power on the movies too not just vader

Other jobs?

my english isnt that good i tend to say reference material (novels,comics guides etc)
NevesYtneves
NevesYtneves
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December 17th 2020, 9:41 pm
@DarthAdi:

But this is completly arbitrary from you.

How so? My suggestion is that Vader being below the prevalent golden age Jedi we see is fitting to hammer home his weakness without degrading his menace as an antagonist, and that it has a poetic vibe/extreme thematic significance. All of which is true.

Why is Zett the breaking point?

Because he's an example of a character who it'd be genuinely embarrassing to be beneath.

For many, Vader being sub TPM Kenobi is already damaging for his credibility as an antagonist.

Good thing you're addressing me and not the many you speak of. Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 2 1289255181

Being less powerful than [insert character] doesn't make the story inherently better. What matters is his position relative to what he could have been and his inability to surpass his master who he hates.

Broadly you're right about power not mattering (though that's a point I never contested), but specifically I've given very clear reasons as to why I like the idea of TPM Kenobi>Vader from a narrative POV.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 17th 2020, 9:56 pm
@Nute_Chethray wrote:Because Lucas quotes can't block Vader in canon

This
The Adventurous Jedi
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December 18th 2020, 7:39 am
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my english isnt that good

We couldn't tell.
Gianfi
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December 19th 2020, 4:22 am
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Because New Canon has been smarter and made him as powerful as he should be. Most criticism is from salty nostalgic fans who don't like that their fav
Meatpants
Meatpants
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December 19th 2020, 5:44 am
"should be" lol
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 19th 2020, 1:04 pm
yes, which falls into 'as strong as ben kenobi' who is equal to ANH sheev. at least we finally settled on something, guys. good job people. its been real.
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