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VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 19th 2020, 1:23 pm
I take everything Lucas says with a grain of salt. I feel like he disorients everything.
Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

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December 19th 2020, 1:50 pm
I love George Lucas but yeh a lot of shit he has said just baffles my mind. Anakin is the chosen one simply because he decided at the very end to be a good person only because his own son was pleading for help while being tortured by Palpatine
And R2-D2 is the hero of Attack of the Clones apparently.
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 26th 2020, 12:31 pm
@Gianfi wrote:Because New Canon has been smarter and made him as powerful as he should be. Most criticism is from salty nostalgic fans who don't like that their fav
So someone who fails to defeat an old man and loses to a novice Jedi can now open portals and lift oceans? They sure did make him as powerful as he "should be" lol.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 26th 2020, 3:01 pm
not really seeing the problem of those things lol
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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December 28th 2020, 6:09 am
@The lord of hunger wrote:not really seeing the problem of those things lol
Up

By G-canon Vader > the death star anyways, lifting oceans is nothing Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 2266747095
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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December 28th 2020, 10:36 am
So someone who fails to defeat an old man

In both Legends and Canon, he was winning that fight.

and loses to a novice Jedi

...You're going to play the "novice" card? Really?


The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 10:45 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Nute_Chethray wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:not really seeing the problem of those things lol
Up

By G-canon Vader > the death star anyways, lifting oceans is nothing Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 2266747095

and by G canon vader>ESB luke but shame some people just wanna hear what they want Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 1220391476

dont really see why having vader perform those feats lose credibility to his tragic life either
Galan007
Galan007

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 28th 2020, 11:54 am
KingKopecz wrote:So someone who fails to defeat an old man

Canon makes it clear that Kenobi stood absolutely no chance against Vader during ANH:
Now he takes control, the blows coming faster and harder. I’m forced to duck, his lightsaber tracing a gleaming line down the metal wall.
[...]
Our lightsabers clash. I try to push forward, only to be thrust violently back. It’s like striking iron. There’s no give in Vader’s arms, and far too much in mine.
[...]
Vader gains ground. I block and parry, attack and retreat. Vader is too strong.
[...]
My resources are depleted, my body screaming with pain. I have no hope of winning this fight.
[...]
Luke’s cry echoes across the landing bay. There he is, watching us fight, the open hatch of the freighter behind him. He knows full well that I cannot win.

-From a Certain POV

__________________________


KingKopecz wrote:and loses to a novice Jedi

Here again, canon specifies that Luke's power and skill were equal to Vader's at the start of their battle in RotJ:
"Father and son were now equally strong with the Force, and equally skilled with their lightsabers."

-Jedi vs. Sith (2016)

And when Luke momentarily tapped into the dark side after the "sissster" prodding, he was able to resoundingly overpower Vader:
“Never!” screams Luke, launching himself out of the gloom, lightsaber blazing, fighting as he has never fought before. He swings wildly, madly, using the dark side to move faster and strike harder.

He has felt anger and hate before, but never this much fear…fear for his sister, Leia. It is too much for Vader. He blocks attack after attack but is pushed back farther each time. Always fueled by hatred, he now gathers additional strength from fear…but it is not enough.

Luke lands a blow on his arm, then one on his side. The Sith Lord is forced backward until he reaches the bridge over the reactor shaft. Here he tries to strike back, but Luke knocks him down. He sprawls onto the bridge, lifting his lightsaber in a vain attempt to block whatever comes next. But Luke slashes with his saber, slicing Vader’s arm off. The metal limb tumbles down into the shaft, taking the lightsaber with it.

-Beware the Power of the Dark Side! (2015)


So while RotJ Luke may have been a novice Jedi by conventional standards, he was still intended to be immensely powerful/skilled in canon.
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 12:04 pm
Literally everything you’ve said about Luke was relative to Vader so the point that he lost to a novice Jedi still stands. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?
BreakofDawn
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December 28th 2020, 12:34 pm
KingKopecz wrote:Literally everything you’ve said about Luke was relative to Vader so the point that he lost to a novice Jedi still stands. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?

An earlier Luke bested the GI, shook an ISD with a Force Push, and held his own against Vader. Not sure why losing to a "novice" who's clearly immensely powerful and very skilled is indicative of anything.

Dooku struggled with a novice:

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 NervousShamefulHare-size_restricted

Maul struggled with a "novice":

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 YH9b-W

Anakin struggled with a "novice":

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 1bn28l

ROTJ Luke did something even an amped Eeth Koth couldn't, and he fought a far earlier Vader (14 BBY).

Your use of the term "novice" is a bit confusing, in light of all of this.
VictreebelVictr
VictreebelVictr

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December 28th 2020, 12:47 pm
Must we treat Maul the same way we treat Vader in regards to their legends and canon differences?
Zenwolf
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December 28th 2020, 12:51 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
KingKopecz wrote:. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?


I mean you can say this about any of the movie characters, Vader isn’t exclusive in that he jumps up several notches compared to on screen portrayal.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 1:17 pm
not only that any movie character that its included in other material like novels gets much better feats than his screen portrayal its not exclusive only for vader but yet people not say shit when other character has that same type of hype and when vader for some reason gets it everyone lose their minds
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 1:17 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
KingKopecz wrote:Literally everything you’ve said about Luke was relative to Vader so the point that he lost to a novice Jedi still stands. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?

An earlier Luke bested the GI, shook an ISD with a Force Push, and held his own against Vader. Not sure why losing to a "novice" who's clearly immensely powerful and very skilled is indicative of anything.

Dooku struggled with a novice:

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 NervousShamefulHare-size_restricted

Maul struggled with a "novice":

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 YH9b-W

Anakin struggled with a "novice":

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon - Page 3 1bn28l

ROTJ Luke did something even an amped Eeth Koth couldn't, and he fought a far earlier Vader (14 BBY).

Your use of the term "novice" is a bit confusing, in light of all of this.
Definition of a novice: a person who is not experienced in a job or situation.
OT Luke seems to fit this definition perfectly. He didn't have a lot of training and had barely completed his training by the time he fought Vader on the second Death Star. I am aware Luke has recently been getting OP feats within the comics but it seems a bit like damage control to justify Vader's loss to him in RotJ despite him being so powerful. And I really don't like how they have to massively inflate the power of a very inexperienced Jedi in order to fix this.
We should just agree to disagree on this. I don't like the idea of Vader being the Star Wars version of the God Emperor of Mankind whereas you seem to think otherwise.
The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 1:18 pm
where does the comparision of geom with vader cames out


Last edited by The lord of hunger on December 28th 2020, 1:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 1:25 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:not only that any movie character that its included in other material like novels gets much better feats than his screen portrayal its not exclusive only for vader but yet people not say shit when other character has that same type of hype and when vader for some reason gets it everyone lose their minds
Not rly. 
I've seen many Marvel fans get annoyed at how weak the MCU made Thor and Hulk when they are some of the strongest heroes in the comics. So I don't think this is anything new lol.
The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 1:46 pm
why bringing marvel here in the first place?
Galan007
Galan007

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December 28th 2020, 1:56 pm
KingKopecz wrote:Literally everything you’ve said about Luke was relative to Vader so the point that he lost to a novice Jedi still stands. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?
In Luke's case, "novice" is also a relative term. IOW, your choice of defining terminology doesn't change the fact that Luke was intended to be equal to Vader as of RotJ, and became decisively superior to Vader after momentarily tapping into the dark side. ie. RotJ Luke(dark side) > RotJ Luke(light side) = RotJ Vader.

Novice or not, that's the level canon has him operating at.
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 2:02 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:why bringing marvel here in the first place?
For comparison
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 2:03 pm
@Galan007 wrote:
KingKopecz wrote:Literally everything you’ve said about Luke was relative to Vader so the point that he lost to a novice Jedi still stands. Comic Vader is several stomp gaps above movie Vader. But he’s badass so yay?
In Luke's case, "novice" is also a relative term. IOW, your choice of defining terminology doesn't change the fact that Luke was intended to be equal to Vader as of RotJ, and became decisively superior to Vader after momentarily tapping into the dark side. ie. RotJ Luke(dark side) > RotJ Luke(light side) = RotJ Vader.

Novice or not, that's the level canon has him operating at.
Yes I know thats meant to be the level RotJ Luke is meant to be at hence why I'm not a fan of Vader being OP
The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 2:04 pm
KingKopecz wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:why bringing marvel here in the first place?
For comparison

not relatable considering disney handles the two of them different to a degree
RedGuard1an
RedGuard1an

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December 28th 2020, 2:14 pm
Ok?
The lord of hunger
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December 28th 2020, 2:17 pm
i guess
lorenzo.r.2nd
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December 28th 2020, 3:02 pm
by ROTJ luke is considered a full blown jedi, so u cant even argue the novice point anymore tbh.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

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December 28th 2020, 3:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Just feel like chipping in on the whole Luke discussion. RotJ Luke should hardly be considered a "novice." In both Legends and Canon, he had spent 4 years straight engaged in constant warfare against an opponent that had vastly superior numbers and resources. This gives Luke more active combat experience than most Clone Wars-era Jedi (The Clone Wars lasted for 3 years, and the typical role of the Jedi before then meant they very seldom saw actually warfare in that era).

Couple that with the number of lightsaber duels he had engaged in, in either Canon and Legends, and he technically has more experience in live duels than most Prequel-era Jedi as well (with live lightsaber duels being extremely uncommon due to how rare it was for the Jedi to encounter opposition wielding lightsabers as well). In Canon, Luke has fought Kreel 4 times, the Grand Inquisitor once, and Vader at least 3, for a total of 8 duels. In Legends, Luke fought Kharys once, Tagge twice, Morne once, Vader at least 3 times, and I'm sure I'm missing a couple more examples, for a minimum of 7.

Most Jedi outside of the main characters didn't have nearly that many lightsaber duels throughout their whole career. So to call RotJ Luke a "novice" is pretty disingenuous when he technically has more combat experience than the average Clone Wars-era Jedi. Luke is only a novice when it comes to knowledge and wisdom, as his training in those aspects was sorely limited at the time of RotJ. But in all other regards, Luke is an extremely accomplished war veteran by RotJ. Couple that with his Skywalker lineage, and George's statement about RotJ Luke being his "full, mature self," "ready to take on his final challenge [Vader]" and it's pretty clear that Luke's victory over Vader was entirely due to Luke's own merit as a warrior.
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