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Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 8:23 am
Post thoughts.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 8:29 am
Because Disney is shit.
Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 9:07 am
@Sjuttiosju wrote:Because Disney is shit.

Disney is shit but honestly making Vader powerful was the way to go. To me the idea that Anakin would degrade into a sub TPM level oponent just doesn't make sense to me. Even if he lost a lot of force potential, he should still be pretty powerful regardless because he is the chosen one. Not to mention this would cause an uproar with the Vader fans
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 9:07 am
I don't see the difference. They are both weak and below Anakin.
Galan007
Galan007

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 9:46 am
It's different in the sense that canon Anakin/Vader(pre-suit) didn't have nearly the same level of power/accolades that he was given in Legends. Additionally, most canon sources indicate that post-Mustafar Vader was actually more powerful than he had ever been(which is also a sharp contrast to Legends.)
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 9:49 am
I disagree Galan. ANH Vader still below ANH Kenobi who is below RotS Kenobi as I know. Other than that Vader didn't do anything that suggests he is above his RotS self.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:15 am
Because there's less characters compared to before? Thus rankings are different.
Galan007
Galan007

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:15 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:I disagree Galan. ANH Vader still below ANH Kenobi who is below RotS Kenobi as I know. Other than that Vader didn't do anything that suggests he is above his RotS self.
The novel From A Certain POV makes it clear that Kenobi had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader during ANH.

And there are also a few quotes indicating that post-RotS Vader > RotS Vader. Once he became acclimated to the suit, he was stronger, and more connected to the dark side than ever -- pretty sure that was outright stated in Lords of the Sith, for example.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:17 am
@Galan007 wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:I disagree Galan. ANH Vader still below ANH Kenobi who is below RotS Kenobi as I know. Other than that Vader didn't do anything that suggests he is above his RotS self.
The novel From A Certain POV makes it clear that Kenobi had absolutely no chance of defeating Vader during ANH.

And there are also a few quotes indicating that post-RotS Vader > RotS Vader. Once he became acclimated to the suit, he was stronger, and more connected to the dark side than ever -- pretty sure that was outright stated in Lords of the Sith, for example.

Soo...basically the same as before.

Anyway there's lesser characters now? The generalized scaling is lower? Take your pick, thus the rankings are gonna be different.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Because Lucas quotes can't block Vader in canon
Galan007
Galan007

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:25 am
@Zenwolf wrote:Soo...basically the same as before.

Anyway there's lesser characters now? The generalized scaling is lower? Take your pick, thus the rankings are gonna be different.
The starting point for Vader in particular is lower in canon, sure.

In Legends, RotS Anakin/Vader has some of the greatest accolades of any character in the mythos... But he isn't nearly as wanked in canon.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:33 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Mysteryman06:

Disney is shit but honestly making Vader powerful was the way to go.

I disagree honestly. Vader going from the chosen one to a piss weak cripple enslaved to the emperor is part of what makes his story so tragic. He's still a menacing threat in the OT, but nothing compared to the Jedi of the PT. That has a lot of thematic significance for me, and makes the character much more compelling.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
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Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:34 am
@Nute_Chethray wrote:Because Lucas quotes can't block Vader in canon

Except his word didn't exactly block him before either. The authors weren't pigeon held to his word and could do their own thing.

@Galan007 Yet anyway, I'm sure at some point they'll get to that.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:50 am
@Sjuttiosju
Vader doesn't need to be sub TPM Kenobi for his story to be tragic.
What make his story a tragedy is him losing his humanity, all his loved ones and being forced to live in a life support armour for the rest of his life while being Palpatine's slave.
Being more powerful than many PT characters doesn't diminish his suffering in any way and he still lost what made him special, his Father level potential.


Last edited by DarthAdi on December 17th 2020, 10:55 am; edited 1 time in total
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 10:52 am
@DarthAdi: I'm not claiming it makes his story not tragic if he's better than them though... I'm saying it makes it more tragic if he's worse.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:00 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@DarthAdi: I'm not claiming it makes his story not tragic if he's better than them though... I'm saying it makes it more tragic if he's worse.
I don't see how. From Vader's perspective it's still not much different. He is still not able to beat the Emperor alone, but he is still more powerful than the rest. His position relative to the PT doesn't have any influence over the story.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:30 am
@DarthAdi The further removed from his past self he is the more useless and powerless he feels. It's not difficult to understand honestly.
Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:49 am
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@Mysteryman06:

Disney is shit but honestly making Vader powerful was the way to go.

I disagree honestly. Vader going from the chosen one to a piss weak cripple enslaved to the emperor is part of what makes his story so tragic. He's still a menacing threat in the OT, but nothing compared to the Jedi of the PT. That has a lot of thematic significance for me, and makes the character much more compelling.

But he isn't a piss weak cripple. https://youtu.be/4rtLcKOLhAQ?t=20 George Lucas say's even when Anakin turns into Darth Vader he is still the chosen one, meaning he is still powerful regardless if he is restricted by a suit.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:50 am
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@DarthAdi The further removed from his past self he is the more useless and powerless he feels. It's not difficult to understand honestly.
Than why don't make him sub Zett Jukassa, if the more weak he is the better the story. Him being sub TPM Kenobi doesn't make the story better or the tragedy more compelling.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf
Level One
Level One

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:52 am
@DarthAdi wrote: Him being sub TPM Kenobi doesn't make the story better or the tragedy more compelling.

....Are people seriously believing this nonsense? Please tell me this is a dumb joke..
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:55 am
pretty sure becuase how disney treats the character since rogue one and other media going by the fact that for example he is above SoD maul and Rots dooku.

i dont really see the problem of him being on a different ranking from his legends counterpart (even if it isnt the case as zenwolf has said)


Last edited by The lord of hunger on December 17th 2020, 10:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
Mysteryman06
Mysteryman06

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 11:56 am
@Zenwolf wrote:
@DarthAdi wrote: Him being sub TPM Kenobi doesn't make the story better or the tragedy more compelling.

....Are people seriously believing this nonsense? Please tell me this is a dumb joke..

It was actually a joke that was used to troll Vader fanboys, now it seems like it evolved into a serious position with this community....
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 12:10 pm
@DarthAdi:

Than why don't make him sub Zett Jukassa, if the more weak he is the better the story. Him being sub TPM Kenobi doesn't make the story better or the tragedy more compelling.

Because there has to be a level of menace for the character to work as an antagonist, one which is not damaged by putting him beneath the best of the golden age Jedi, but would be by placing him below Zett. I thought that would have been intuitively obvious.

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon 2829155256
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 12:32 pm
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@DarthAdi:

Than why don't make him sub Zett Jukassa, if the more weak he is the better the story. Him being sub TPM Kenobi doesn't make the story better or the tragedy more compelling.

Because there has to be a level of menace for the character to work as an antagonist, one which is not damaged by putting him beneath the best of the golden age Jedi, but would be by placing him below Zett. I thought that would have been intuitively obvious.

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon 2829155256
But this is completly arbitrary from you. Why is Zett the breaking point? For many, Vader being sub TPM Kenobi is already damaging for his credibility as an antagonist. Being less powerful than [insert character] doesn't make the story inherently better. What matters is his position relative to what he could have been and his inability to surpass his master who he hates.

What made Vader such an iconic villain is his portrayal as an badass cyborg and at the same time a tortured soul as we later saw in ROTJ. Vader lost hope because he lost his Father level potential (the thing that made him special). Compared to what he could have been he now feels "useless and powerless", but being vastly below god level doesn't mean he has to be at a certain level relative to the PT force users.


SnowxElf
SnowxElf

Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon Empty Re: Why is Vader's ranking in canon different to Legends/G Canon

December 17th 2020, 1:45 pm
Lucas wanted Anakin pre-suit to be > Suited-Vader, which makes a lot more sense. Then a bunch of writers came along and thought they needed to state Suited-Vader was more powerful for some reason.
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