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Geistalt
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) - Page 3 Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on March 14th 2020, 10:38 pm
Holy shit; was Isv arguing that TESB Luke > RotS Obi-Wan or Tyranus?
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on March 14th 2020, 10:44 pm
@Geistalt wrote:Holy shit; was Isv arguing that TESB Luke > RotS Obi-Wan or Tyranus?
Yeah
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on March 14th 2020, 10:57 pm
No. I was trying to argue that Tyranus couldn't ragdoll Luke...
Geistalt
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on March 15th 2020, 1:00 am
I started out reading page 2, then got to the quote that "At last, [Vader] had encountered an opponent worthy of him."

That opponent being Luke.

While that does probably confirm Luke to be a better duelist than Old Ben, it doesn't say anything of how TESB Vader or Luke would fare against RotS Dooku. I do think Dooku and Vader have comparable—and nigh-identical—scaling, and you both make pretty good arguments, but that quote is useless and provides nothing to judge which of them is stronger.
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on March 15th 2020, 11:15 am
@Geistalt Debate hasn't finished. Pretty sure you're not supposed to be making such suggestions yet.
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on March 19th 2020, 5:27 pm
This is an excellent thread.
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on March 20th 2020, 3:51 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
The Encore

"My coming here fulfills one half of the prophesy."
"Please... the crystal"
"What is the full prophesy?"
"That you will come when three stars align. And that you will bring glorious chaos to all those who seek it!"
...
"Prophecy fulfilled."


Preface:

As with all good things, this must also come to an end. IG has ignored almost all of my arguments and I am here to address slight things, though due to the confines of the debate I am not allowed to invoke any new tangible evidence. So I am left with merely detailing my claims and clarifying the misconceptions common when a user posts on another's ideas. This was originally planned to be a three-part blog type series addressing misconceptions but after I made my "third" post I was informed by IG that the opener counted as a post in of itself. I am not suggesting foul play, nor am I sore about the whole thing, but I think it's worth mentioning that the cadre of evidence that I had gathered to counter those points still exists and you may very well see it soon. If I lose this debate, I would like to announce a new series of public blogs that will be focusing on misconceptions over Vader and his arguments. My people and our arguments were turned upside down within the last two-years when users DarthAnt66 and Azronger engaged in a formal debate where many of the primary arguments used for the cybernetic sith lord were "debunked" or "rebuked." Since then, my affiliates and I have been working tirelessly to restore Vader's status as the supreme apprentice and we will continue to do so. Without further ado, let us finish this little debate and address point by point what IG ignored and why I seemingly won this debate shall we?

The Disproportional Arguments of a Barrier:


A choice of mine during this debate was to follow along with IG's barrier based arguments, that being that a huge gap is required to break an opponents force barrier. Throughout this debate IG has argued that Kenobi is but a "flick of the wrist" away from Dooku. Kenobi's speed and relativity to Dooku was emphasized thoroughly, I extrapolated on why I thought Kenobi was not "fodder" to Dooku and could indeed hold his own. IG even subtly conceded on some of my points about this and comparisons to other fights. The argument has basically been that Dooku can move so fast that Kenobi is incapable of reacting which denotes a blitz tier gap, that is foolish when we consider Dooku does not blitz Kenobi at any other point of the fight. So the entire premise for Dooku being a ragdoll tier gap above Kenobi due to speed and ignorance of Kenobi being caught off-guard when the actual ragdoll occurred is fallacious and against IG's own argument. I encourage readers of the debate to re-read these sections to see how much IG just ignores my points or tries to recycle the same debunked logic.

Darth Vader's Growth:


This was easily the most harrowing and controversial part of the debate for IG and I. While I provided substantiated evidence he never bothered debunking or even attempted to counter, he kept insisting that Vader's growth-rate slowed without any proof. He cited the examples of prodigious Jedi such as Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, but even in these examples he fell victim to his own double standards. Something that was a reoccurring theme throughout this debate was the idea that massive growth can be attained from conflict. I cited in my final post that Darth Vader has been at war with the galaxy for 19 years, quelling minor insurrections or hunting Jedi. Furthermore, the differing growthrates for Kenobi and Skywalker during TPM-AOTC and AOTC-ROTS can also be explained away by that same "war growth rate." What I truly don't understand is that he never addressed this. He never explained why Dooku, who is a politician more than a warrior and engages in few real lightsaber duels would grow more than someone who is actively hunting Jedi, single-handedly destroying organizations "too powerful" for the imperial army to take alone, and overseeing training for all the darkside adepts. Consider that the aforementioned Politician apparently grows a gargantuan amount while basically doing nothing but occasionally fighting Jedi off of his palaces or engaging with Yoda approximately two times throughout his career, but Vader's growth is "lackluster?" Objectively, if Darth Tyranus grows more powerful than the entire planet of Korriban (which contains the spirits of hundreds of Sith throughout history and is a monastery of darkside collectibles and memorabilia, which is an argument you stole that from Greysentinel by the way) why would Darth Vader not grow at LEAST a ragdoll tier gap per year? It's either poor logic or bias to assume as much or just a double standard which is poor practice.


Obi-Wan vs Darth Tyranus:


I provided a good amount of proof that Kenobi cannot be "ragdoll tier fodder" to Count Dooku. I cited the explicit scene where Kenobi explains how he was caught off-guard by the force choke. The final post IG made claims that because Dooku moves so fast that he can push Kenobi this proves he is somehow a "ragdoll" tier gap ahead. My answer to this is so what? Ventress vs Anakin, Obi-wan vs Anakin, and Bane vs Zannah. These people are all either equal or relative to one another and they can push each other, it's foolish to assume that because Dooku pushes Kenobi he is somehow massively ahead, it goes against IG's own argument.

Dooku vs Yoda:


There is new evidence that has come out for these two that shall be disregarded for the purpose of this debate. I was not aware of the new evidence and it doesn't really matter anyways as I'll explain later. Simply put, Darth Sidious and Tyranus have a huge gap that makes it IMPOSSIBLE for Dooku and Yoda to still be relevant by Revenge of the Sith. Yoda is a tier 9 and Dooku is locked as an 8, there was no counter for this and it's very clear that my possible interpretations of the Vjun and Tatooine fights fit far better into the established lore than IG's own. It's a matter of trying to piece together conflicting information and coming to the most reasonable conclusion, and the most reasonable conclusion is that Tyranus is not on Yoda's level nor does he share parity.

Luke vs Ben:


Throughout this debate I have provided hard evidence that Luke as of ESB is more powerful and a better combatant. IG has seemingly conceded this on all points as you will see he gradually stops arguing against it as the debate progresses. I also explained that Vader can toy with and "easily" defeat Luke which places him vastly above the likes of Ben who I related to ROTS Kenobi (we will open that can of worms in a minute.) IG insists that Ben is more powerful than Luke which is ironic considering his entire argument for Dooku being more powerful than Kenobi is based around speed which he concedes Luke is faster than Ben. Even not going by IG logic I provided quotes illustrating Luke as the most powerful of the two that he ignored... again.


OT vs PT Battle of the Lucas Quotes:


IG attempted to assert that every single character that we see from the Prequel Trilogy dwarfs the Original trilogy, I addressed this by citing Darth Vader's Purge showings which indicate that he is fully capable of taking on those Jedi and even cited an example where he is portrayed as much better than Jedi we see in the films. The argument is that Lucas is saying the PT jedi are more refined, he just attempted to ignore this point and continue rambling on about the same nonsense. The best that IG could hope for was a quote that placed Luke underneath Yoda as of Attack of the Clones, which was only referring to the audiences interpretation of the movies with the prequels now released. He never established Dooku as Yoda's peer either, or at least he didn't in any way that was convincing. The crown jewel of his hypocrisy was the argument that the "enormous" gap Dooku and Yoda have is "un-quantifiable" when the entire premise of his anti-Ben arguments were predicated around similar word choice denoting the gap between them.

The Anakin Quote:


Once again, I provided a good amount of evidence that the quote could easily be referring to Anakin's ROTS iteration. IG ignored this once again citing the idea that because the film had not yet released Pablo must have been referencing AOTC, which was lazy and ignorant of the entire premise of my point. The words "young man" are so vague as to which iteration of Anakin it was referring to, that the quote really means nothing overall and just serves to suit IG's lowballing. If the debate were to persist I would have compared Vader's and pre-AOTC Anakin's performances against Ferus Olin and further explained why his interpretation was flawed. As it stands however, I think my point rests well enough.

Physical Supremacy:


At the risk of sounding rude, IG needs to take a few more English classes. Though I respect the blindness of someone so fully invested in their ideals that they can ignore everything around them for real life purposes, in debate this makes you look foolish. IG has not yet separated what "feats of strength" means in relation to force reserves. The argument presented was that 19 bby Vader refers to his "Feats of Strength" as vastly superior to that of Anakin Skywalker's, IG's counter was that Vader was less powerful than Anakin ergo Vader is less strong, but this is just ignoring the lore once again. Darth Vader has General Grevious's limbs built into him, which were already "as forceful" as any Mace Windu encountered. If Vader retained any bit of Force augmentation, it is easy to see why he would be physically stronger than Anakin had been. The Return of the Jedi Luke argument was a red herring, because he didn't establish any evidence that the two were equals (I would have debunked that in my final post as well) and apparently now blade-locks determine established force power... which is idiotic. As the debate stands, he hasn't addressed why Luke's strength would be inferior to Dooku's other than an IU quote that had literally no relevance to this debate. In addition I cited Vader's armor and stamina as huge advantages he has in his corner that IG tried to handwave away. All of those points still stand.

Conclusion:


I can ramble all day about all the things IG has ignored and just promoted misconceptions about, but ultimately the debate itself is evidence enough of that. If you can look at this with a critical eye you will see that almost every point IG brought up in his opening post (IE: Korriban, Luke's power to lift an X-wing, or Ben Kenobi or Darth Vader's growth) are slowly abandoned in terms of other arguments. This is called "changing the goalpost" and represents IG's inability to counter my points, in contrast if you watch my behavior, you will see even now I stand firm on all of my points and am confident my arguments hold up to scrutiny, which denotes my superiority overall. Either way I do hope everyone enjoyed my fresh takes on classic arguments and perhaps you have a more positive opinion of Vader because of it. 
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on March 21st 2020, 8:16 am
Barriers and Dooku v Kenobi


ISV thoroughly ignored almost all of my arguments here, instead being blatantly dishonest with his counters. I claimed Dooku pushing Kenobi away while mid-combat by augmenting himself so much that a non-surprised Kenobi cannot react is an undeniable showing of superiority, an immense superiority. ISV responds by citing the JN and saying Kenobi was surprised, despite it being a separate instance and being completely unrelated. I then point this out, to which he replies with more dishonest scans and evidence, claiming a push isn’t a showing of superiority, providing a scan of Dooku being pushed by Anakin, while Dooku’s attacking Kenobi and caught off-guard. Kenobi managing to fight as an “equal” to Dooku is furthermore incorrect. Dooku was clearly caught off-guard by Kenobi’s abrupt change of form, and Dooku’s ability to fight off Kenobi and Skywalker simultaneously is evidence of superiority to Kenobi. 


Growth


ISV thoroughly fell flat here. Where I showed that if Vader grows linearly at a ragdoll gap a year, he’d be ragdolling the PT Titans, something that’s factually false, ISV made mocking claims that never truly addressed my points. My claim on Dooku was never that he was more powerful than the planet of Korriban itself, but that he’s more powerful than himself amped on Korriban, indicating ISV never read my post. While Vader’s growth rate isn’t absolute horseshit, it’s not linearly growing a ragdoll gap a year. I claimed Dooku has one mega-jump, not more, so ISV’s claims to make me look dumb here are both idiotic and not called for. As for the Grey argument, if we’re outlawing any arguments made by others, then your Kenobi to Dooku argument isn’t allowed, as Az made the aforementioned argument. 


Dooku v Yoda


Here ISV disregarded every argument I made. I pointed out that an exhausted Dooku is on par with a fresh Yoda, and the latter was exhausted when the fight ended, ISV ignores this. I point out Yoda Uncovered, where Dooku wins, ISV claims Dooku is tricking Yoda, a fact that makes no sense when fighting an equal. Dooku defeats Yoda fairly, a fact ISV completely throws out. Next we have what is likely the most contentious point of the debate here, Vjun. I argued that based on the fact Anakin, Whie, and Scout are all drawing off of Vjun, plus Sean Stewart clarifies Yoda is drawing on the nexus, Yoda has to be drawing on the nexus as well, thus rendering it similar to a showing between the pair on non-amped ground. In the fight, Dooku is barely driven back slowly, step by step, and he’s taunting Yoda all the way. This is an undeniable showing of nigh-parity, something ISV attempts to disprove the entire time, failing to do so as well. Arguing based on unquantifiable tier gaps, that for all we know could be super-close, as enormous is entirely subjective. 


OT v PT


Unlike what ISV claims, I never said all PT guys > Vader, I said that based on Lucas’ quotes, the first real duel we see, that being Kenobi and Jinn v Maul, the first “real Jedi” we see, that being Jinn, as Kenobi’s still a Padawan is superior to ROTJ Luke, an equal of Vader. This clearly creates an immense, ragdoll worthy, even, gap between Dooku and Vader. None of ISV’s points on this topic particularly stood, as they were all either dishonest, or they were misinterpreting what I was saying. 


Anakin Quote


ISV assumes, rather baselessly here, that the quote can refer to ROTS Anakin. He brings up the ambiguity of “young man” here as well. ISV does not acknowledge, however, the fact that canonically, ROTS doesn’t exist yet. Simply put, it’s a non-entity in terms of Canon. To use an analogy, it’s like assuming an Insider quote about Ahsoka Tano from December referred to S7 Tano because that’s what’s coming up, and Insider’s advertising it. Thus Hidalgo’s statement automatically refers to AOTC Anakin, but that’s irrelevant, as there’s other direct links between the pair. 


Vader’s Strength


ISV really needs to learn to be less dishonest. Matching someone in bladelock is obviously a showing of parity, or something to that effect, at least in terms of physical strength. Luke v Vader in bladelock is evidently showing the pair are matched in physical strength. As Luke’s own strength is his natural strength + aug, and his aug is much, much weaker than Dooku’s because of the raw power difference between the pair. Thus Dooku’s physical strength is greater than Vader’s because of his direct scaling from ROTJ Luke. ISV claiming he’d have “debunked” this is clearly bravado. It’s a failing tactic in order to make himself look better, but he hasn’t realized that boasting and using big words (especially when you can’t spell them, or use them correctly) isn’t a sign of superiority in a debate. His use of “relevant” instead of “relative” is an example. 


Dooku’s Stamina


Simply put, ISV doesn’t refute this. I use Zannah’s quote to emphasize how most duels last less than a minute, and those that are a minute long are exceptional outliers, and therefore denote far, far greater stamina than most fighters. ISV tries to turn this upon me by using Yoda’s use of Ataru as the reason he’s exhausted against Dooku without acknowledging Dooku’s already exhausted. A cheap attempt at saying Yoda’s not close to Dooku. He then basically concedes the idea Dooku has bad stamina.


Conclusion


I find it ironic that ISV claims me conceding arguments is a bad thing when we can find a host of evidence of him conceding stuff as well. Ultimately, however, it doesn’t particularly matter. What does matter is that for all of ISV’s boasting on Discord, for all of his Vader wank, he, to quote Revenge of the Sith, “Just didn’t have it”.  While he’s had (I’d assume) less concessions, his arguments did not, as he claims, hold up to scrutiny. But irrespectively, I hope this has been entertaining for all parties involved (in one way or another), and want to thank ISV for agreeing to this matchup.

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on March 21st 2020, 8:56 pm
Accusing me of "lying" without tangible evidence isn't a finisher or rebuttal IG, that's foul play
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on March 21st 2020, 8:57 pm
> Korriban wrote:Accusing me of "lying" without tangible evidence isn't a finisher or rebuttal IG, that's foul play
Don't be hypocritical, you called me dishonest in your posts too.
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on March 21st 2020, 9:04 pm
@IG wrote:
> Korriban wrote:Accusing me of "lying" without tangible evidence isn't a finisher or rebuttal IG, that's foul play
Don't be hypocritical, you called me dishonest in your posts too.

I framed it as ignorance, not genuine deception
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on March 21st 2020, 9:05 pm
> Korriban wrote:
@IG wrote:
> Korriban wrote:Accusing me of "lying" without tangible evidence isn't a finisher or rebuttal IG, that's foul play
Don't be hypocritical, you called me dishonest in your posts too.

I framed it as ignorance, not genuine deception
Nah I mean post 3 "that seems deliberately misleading"
Either way, it's irrelevant tbh.
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