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Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Empty Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus

on Thu Jan 09, 2020 8:43 pm
Background: Darth Maul (TCW), Vader and Ventress have all gotten together and decided they've had enough of the Limey's invading their evil cult. Likewise, Nox, Dooku and Malgus have all decided to get rid of the inferior American Sith who can't stop falling off things or getting punked by shitty duelists and blind men. 

All in prime (SoD, ROTJ, TCW, ROTS, act 3, Onslaught).
Perfect teamwork.
Team 2 have prior knowledge of their opponents, while team 2 only has knowledge about members of team 2 they've encountered or studied.

R1: Sabers.
R2: Force.
R3: All out.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:03 pm
ventress seems to be a weak link, imo, in the force range, but thats fine.

R1: Sabers only? depends on the set up. Vader beats all of them aside from dooku, as he is in fact too agile. Dooku beats either ventress or maul as well. Tough one. 

Maul < Dooku
Vader > Malgus
Ventress > Nox

semi injured/tired Dooku vs semi injured/tired Vader and injured/tired ventress goes to the vader team, no matter how you look at it.

R2: Another good one. Ventress is a weak link here tho

Vader > Malgus
Dooku > Maul
Nox > Ventress

Idk if semi tired Vader can beat semi tired dooku, and likely not that tired nox. He can deal with nox mid diff, imo, but Dooku is dangerous to say the least. Vader does have the greater stamina, so if he gets pissed at any point and starts spamming, he wins. if not, he loses.

50/50

R3: 

Vader > Malgus
Dooku > Maul (in the overall look at things)
Nox > Ventress (imo)

Vader seems to be a less agile, but overall better 'Malgus'. He wins 100% of the time. Malgus is fast, but not faster than Vader, nor is he stronger or more skilled. He seems to be less intelligent as well, and is less experienced, alongside training that is not as good or varied, much greater skill with the force, and not nearly as many powers as Vader has.

Dooku vs Maul. Honestly, Maul will 100% give him trouble, but like the above, Maul is, at best, likely stronger than Dooku. Aside from that, Dooku has it all in the bag. He is as smart, equal to, or more skilled, many more force powers, more skilled in the force, just as experienced, if not much more, is about as fast, if not faster, and while his stamina may be lower, if he were to get enraged and go ape shit, or spam stuff, he will honestly kill off Maul in about 30 seconds, imo.

Nox vs Ventress. Ventress may be faster, more agile, and more skilled as fighter, but she lacks in the force, imo. She does have good powers, but so does Nox, so Ill give it to Nox.

Possibly tired Vader vs somewhat tired Dooku, and not as tired Nox. The agility here is a huge problem. Vader would need to spam the force, and go on the attack 100% of the time. He could take off Nox pretty swiftly if he were to fight like that, but Dooku is too much of a problem. Unless Vader crazily spams the force, team likely wins. Another 50/50.
IG
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Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Empty Re: Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus

on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:09 pm
Any on team 2 beat any of team 1 lmao. Tyranus soloes, Malgus may, Nox and Malgus definitely take it. Team 2 for the curbstomp.
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:13 pm
From what I've seen, no one here is good enough to comfortably beat Vader, let alone Vader with Maul's help.
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:18 pm
BoD (back from 8th) wrote:From what I've seen, no one here is good enough to comfortably beat Vader, let alone Vader with Maul's help.
Dooku is way beyond Maul and Vader lmao. Look at SoD alone for how massively above Maul Dooku is. Vader is vastly sub ROTS Kenobi as of ANH, and ROTS Kenobi himself is way below Dooku. There's no way to somehow conjure up massive growth for Vader between ANH and ROTJ. I'm not denying his growth, but it doesn't close the gap between Ben and ROTS Kenobi and then the gap between ROTS Kenobi and Dooku. Furthermore, Ben is confirmed as more powerful than Vader per Chee, and numerous sources claim that Kenobi gave up the fight on purpose.
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:35 pm
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Dooku is way beyond Maul and Vader lmao. Look at SoD alone for how massively above Maul Dooku is.

SoD proves virtually nothing, lol. The only confrontations between the two are Dooku zapping an already weakened Maul with lightning and the lightning bout that Sidious was already winning against Talzin. All it proves is that Dooku > Maul, not that there's a massive gap.




Vader is vastly sub ROTS Kenobi as of ANH,

No he's not, lol. 



and ROTS Kenobi himself is way below Dooku. There's no way to somehow conjure up massive growth for Vader between ANH and ROTJ.
Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus 3948126588 

Vader is explicitly stated to be far more powerful and skilled as of ESB, then grew yet again by ROTJ. 



I'm not denying his growth, but it doesn't close the gap between Ben and ROTS Kenobi




Considering Ben is implied to be > ROTS Kenobi in power, this is irrelevant.



Furthermore, Ben is confirmed as more powerful than Vader per Chee,


Chee also said in the same chain he doesn't keep track of power levels, so his opinion on A being stronger than B is largely irrelevant. 


and numerous sources claim that Kenobi gave up the fight on purpose.

There are also numerous sources (including two pieces of G-canon) that show Ben was losing, including numerous sources that have Vader as being mentally hindered and overly cautious.
IG
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 9:37 pm
Do the words “shadow of his former self” ring a bell?
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:00 pm
You realise that quote was referring to Mustafar Vader, who was = Sidious, correct? 

When Obi-Wan Kenobi duels his former apprentice Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, both combatants know they are but shadows of their former selves.

But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn’t what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.

So if we take this to mean Force power and not saber skill, what you're saying is ANH Vader << MFV, which is meaningless to the discussion. ESB Vader is likewise << ANH Vader, and ROTJ Vader is above even him. 

As for Kenobi, we know that he grew more powerful in the Force, so it's likewise meaningless.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:11 pm
vader being palps strongest apprentice, far above sedriss, stronger than SK, second strongest being in the galaxy, virtually invincible, and he is still sub ANH kenobi. amazing.
HeartoftheForce
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:13 pm
Dooku can solo with high difficulty. His team takes it
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:14 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:Dooku can solo with high difficulty. His team takes it
How is he soloing Vader, Maul and Ventress at the same time, all of whom can give him a decent to great fight in sabers and one of which is pretty close to him as a Force user?
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:19 pm
Loled at Dooku soloing. He couldn't solo Ventress and Savage.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:25 pm
vader is literally said to be sheev's strongest apprentice...
HeartoftheForce
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 10:46 pm
BoD (back from 8th) wrote:
Greysentinel365 wrote:Dooku can solo with high difficulty. His team takes it
How is he soloing Vader, Maul and Ventress at the same time, all of whom can give him a decent to great fight in sabers and one of which is pretty close to him as a Force user?

Ventress cannot give Dooku a good saber fight and never has. The best she's done against Dooku can be replicated by exhausted AotC Kenobi. She goes down quickly easy like so

Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Giphy

Maul can present a decent challenge in sabers but is at a style disadvantage and is not powerful enough.

Vader, if you could find a way to get him more growth after ESB other than a vague "little bit" might be able to present somewhat of a challenge to Dooku in force but is nowhere close in sabers. Being inferior to a shadow of RotS Obi-Wan in saber skill

Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.

-Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack Darth Vader
And lacking the skill of lifelong masters such as Dooku, Maul etc etc even after becoming "far more formidable" 

Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Vader_10

So Ventress can be dismissed with ease, Maul can be outdueled in short order and Vader is not doing much better.
The lord of hunger
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:08 pm
the team of vader takes this
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:10 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:the team of vader takes this
Why? What has Vader done to show this at all? Ventress is fodder to anyone on team 2, maul loses to all but nox (who he beats in a close fight) and Vader is at best = Malgus, who's << Dooku.
The lord of hunger
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:11 pm
IG (Exists) wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:the team of vader takes this
Why? What has Vader done to show this at all? Ventress is fodder to anyone on team 2, maul loses to all but nox (who he beats in a close fight) and Vader is at best = Malgus, who's << Dooku.
dint you read the post that bod already make????
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:12 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:
IG (Exists) wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:the team of vader takes this
Why? What has Vader done to show this at all? Ventress is fodder to anyone on team 2, maul loses to all but nox (who he beats in a close fight) and Vader is at best = Malgus, who's << Dooku.
dint you read the post that bod already make????
All of which is full of fallacies and misinterpretations? Stop relying on others to argue for you and actually try to defend the points you make on your own.
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on Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:15 pm
IG (Exists) wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:
IG (Exists) wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:the team of vader takes this
Why? What has Vader done to show this at all? Ventress is fodder to anyone on team 2, maul loses to all but nox (who he beats in a close fight) and Vader is at best = Malgus, who's << Dooku.
dint you read the post that bod already make????
All of which is full of fallacies and misinterpretations? Stop relying on others to argue for you and actually try to defend the points you make on your own.
loled at full of fallacies and misinterpretations also who the hell said that in rely on others if i am only posting a example one user already made
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:18 am
All of which is full of fallacies and misinterpretations? Stop relying on others to argue for you and actually try to defend the points you make on your own.

@IG (Exists) Then correct me.


Ventress cannot give Dooku a good saber fight and never has. The best she's done against Dooku can be replicated by exhausted AotC Kenobi. She goes down quickly easy like so

@Greysentinel365 That's why I said "decent". She's held him off and in nearly every duel they've had he's used the Force to defeat or disarm her.


Maul can present a decent challenge in sabers but is at a style disadvantage and is not powerful enough.

Fair enough.


Vader, if you could find a way to get him more growth after ESB other than a vague "little bit" might be able to present somewhat of a challenge to Dooku in force but is nowhere close in sabers. Being inferior to a shadow of RotS Obi-Wan in saber skill

Did you bother to read the quote I mentioned before writing this?

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star.
-- Insider #62
So a Vader who was already solidly > Ben by ANH has now grown far more powerful and far more skilled.

Darth Vader is the preeminent lightsaber master in the galaxy, now that Obi-Wan Kenobi has been destroyed.

-Star Wars Lightsaber Dueling Pack Darth Vader


...A roleplaying game quote that's contradicted by multiple other quotes. 



And lacking the skill of lifelong masters such as Dooku, Maul etc etc even after becoming "far more formidable" 

Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Vader_10
Read it again. "Lacks the advanced polish of study." It means he lacks the finesse of someone like Dooku, not that he's less skilled. Unless, of course, you're claiming that someone like TCW Maul is < Shaak Ti because he's less elegant, or Mace < Dooku because he's less elegant? 


So Ventress can be dismissed with ease, Maul can be outdueled in short order and Vader is not doing much better.

Incorrect on Ventress, who can and has put up a decent fight against Dooku. Vader is also much better than you give him credit for.
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 12:30 am
It’s the same quote your using BoD of course I read it. 

Polish: improve, refine, or add the finishing touches to.


Refine: make changes so as to improve or clarify


So in saying Vader lacks polish its saying his technique lacks the improvement and advancement of “lifelong masters I.e, he’s less skilled. Your word game doesn’t work as grace/elegance has nothing to do with combat effectiveness. A Ballerina is more graceful/elegant than an MMA fighter. Won’t do them any good in a cage. Meanwhile this quote refers specifically to the refinement of skill. The removal of imperfections (openings, sloppy attacks etc etc). 


Name one time Ventress has presented a “decent challenge” to Dooku. 
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 1:05 am
I’m going to, but when I’m free. Okay, BoD?
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:00 am
@IG (Exists) But I want a reply now!

Darth Maul, Darth Vader & Ventress vs Darth Tyranus, Darth Nox & Darth Malgus Giphy.gif?cid=790b7611542d6eb5060048adef6d58a28b0f46ee8ede3e5b&rid=giphy

Spoiler:
No worries, take your time.


Last edited by BoD on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:22 am; edited 1 time in total
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:03 am
[size=33]It’s the same quote your using BoD of course I read it. [/size]

[size=33]Polish: [/size][size=33]improve, refine, or add the finishing touches to.[/size]


[size=33]Refine: [/size][size=33]make changes so as to improve or clarify[/size]


[size=33]So in saying Vader lacks polish its saying his technique lacks the improvement and advancement of “lifelong masters I.e, he’s less skilled. Your word game doesn’t work as grace/elegance has nothing to do with combat effectiveness. A Ballerina is more graceful[/size][size=33]/elegant than an MMA fighter. Won’t do them any good in a cage. Meanwhile this quote refers specifically to the refinement of skill. The removal of imperfections (openings, sloppy attacks etc etc). [/size]
It pretty clearly refers to finesse since the same quote says that he uses it "masterfully" alongside Dun Moch against Luke (someone who essentially mastered form V in a matter of years) and that he uses it with "full confidence". Rough =/= lack of skill. Considering that he's used the form to best countless Jedi, dark Jedi, assassins, etc., I highly doubt it means "lack of skill", otherwise any of the Jedi masters Vader has fought would have tooled him.
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on Fri Jan 10, 2020 3:29 am
Doest that thing contradict Anakin having the best Djem So Dooku had ever seen? He never lost the technique, he lost the flexibility. Two different things. And Djem So, b itself, is the least flexibility-requiring form too, so there is literally no reason for Vader to have been a worst Djem So duelist than Anakin lol. The guy is called the best duelist in the galaxy twice, and has far better showings than Maul's single fight against Sidious, who had to weaken and slow himself down to make it fair in the first place.
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