Suspect Insight Forums

Go down
Isv
Isv
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 1:56 pm
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Banner10 SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 2266747095

Vader is in his ROTJ iteration, Dooku is in his ROTS iteration

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the Guidelines thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

There will be 3 posts per side, and a 7500 character finisher with three weeks for both debaters to write each post, and two weeks to write the finisher.
IG
IG
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 2:13 pm
Lol ISV. Nice banner.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 2:54 pm
i thought u and BOD were doing this, but i guess not huh
Jacen
Jacen
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 3:20 pm
ISV is fighting an uphill battle, but TAEP anyways.
BoD
BoD
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 14th 2020, 6:06 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i thought u and BOD were doing this, but i guess not huh
We were doing the canon one but we both got bored with it.
Latham2000
Latham2000

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 14th 2020, 8:46 am
the list hath spoken.
Isv
Isv
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Yesterday at 1:13 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Uo0eKEVc_XwsACgUk4uW0lPePZYHKd6bqz7KHzp0JAcLLZIO49o02RBxBVrvlzH5ZWe09sFyfvIjyqGM7fgxhlWgRBv5S9pP9qzB0QTeiJ_A3-A0WC36J0wPoyXe19ZVWjQLE_vn

Darth Vader’s Growth Rate:




This is easily one of the most underrated things Vader has going for him in this match. People seem to think that Darth Vader’s earlier iterations and his later ones don’t have any quantifiable ways of proving how much he grew and what causes this growth. Thus I have devised a complete timeline of the events in Vader’s life where he grows how much he grows etc:


Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader (end of book)
Even at the start of Dark Lord the rise of Darth Vader, Vader comments that his feet weigh him down and if he must move with caution lest he stumble or trip over himself:


The tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose claw-like toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footgear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, they were so heavy that he often felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity. What good was motion of this sort, if he was going to have to call on the Force even to walk from place to place! He may as well have resigned himself to using a repulsor chair and abandoned any hope of movement."


 Vader’s comments of his hatred of the suit are important, they represent how restricted he had become since his time as a cyborg. The book takes place over the span of a few months, but when Darth Vader duels and kills Bol Chatak, the Jedi Olee Starstone witnesses it. Vader is damaged in this fight and has to return to Coruscant for repairs during which time he tells sidious he will be responsible for his armor and sidious agrees. Now what happens during this time isn’t clear, but what we do know is that Vader becomes faster than he had been when facing Bol Chatak:


But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.


Furthermore, after Vader has fought and beaten Roan Shryne:


Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space.Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder. Above him Vader jumped from the bridge, dropping to the floor with a grace he hadn't displayed before and alighting just meters away.


After killing Roan Shryne, Vader has this to say about himself:


More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.


So Vader who only a few months earlier complained about walking has gotten to the point where he considers his suit “little more than an outfit” and feels  “self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced.” Of course Sidious also echoes this statement by feeling Vader in a conversation after Kashyyyk:


Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.


Essentially, the point is that Darth Vader’s growth rate from a few months is colossal and there is no reason to assume It doesn’t continue through the rest of his life.


19 BBY (In His Image) - 18BBY (Two-Edged Sword)
Okay so to kick this off I have to include one of the instances of Vader’s yearly growth, which starts off with an assasination attempt by the emperor to test Vader’s mettle. He sends Sa Cuis after Vader to try and kill him, the results are a fairly even battle:


Vader matched him step for step in the standoff as they circled each other. Nothing personal. Perhaps Cuis thought that an ice-cold act would intimidate him. But it was anger and all the other brutal emotions that would win the fight.
Vader lunged.
My Master wants me dead.
He brought his saber down hard in a straight arc and Cuis blocked it with both of his, rasping them straight down its length as if sharpening a metal blade. Vader withdrew and sliced upward, then feinted to the left, wrong-footing the Jedi, who leapt back against the trunk of one of the trees. Vader made a double lunge on his right leg, dipping under the swirling twin beams.
He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it. My Master forced me to live and now he wants me dead. The trunk creaked and toppled and Cuis deflected the weight of branches with the Force. It bought Vader a second. He used it to send Cuis's white beam spinning into the fountain, clattering down the wet stones. As Cuis's remaining lightsaber flew from his left to his right hand, Vader intercepted it, jerking it high into the air and using the Force to throw it to the other side of the courtyard, out of reach.
Cuis leapt high and saved his legs from a savage low sweep, but his opponent had him backed up almost into the angle of the walls. Vader couldn't match Cuis's agility, so instead he reached out with his left hand: the Force seized Cuis's throat.
It gave Vader a familiar and painful jolt of recognition. He shut out what he knew was a memory. Instead he concentrated on using a wholly unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it. Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader's remote, crushing grip with his own Force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort. Vader forced him lower, and lower.


Vader here has a decent Duel with Sa Cuis and it’s noted even after Vader summons his “unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it.” that “Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader’s remote, crushing grip with his own force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort.” This is an example of Cuis contending with Vader’s power. It is only after his oxygen is drained that “Vader forced him lower, and lower.” The last bit of evidence that says that Vader was drawing on a rage amp that had “given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi.”:
He was still savoring rage, seeing how it had swept through him and given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi and keep the memories locked deep within. He shut down his energy blade with a flick of his thumb.
 Combine this with their earlier seemingly comparable duel and you can conclude that Cuis is definitely not just fodder to Vader, he has to work to overwhelm him. 


That idea doesn’t work anymore for his 18BBY iteration:


For a dead man, Sa Cuis still had a fine lightsaber technique. Lord Vader swung his blade and the two beams of red energy rasped off each other.
Cuis - one of his clones, anyway - circled and Vader matched him, keeping a constant distance between them. He had no intention of killing the assassin again. Arkanian Micro had spent more than a year creating this clone of the Dark Jedi and it would have been wasteful to destroy him or any of his five brothers simply to prove superiority.
Besides, they were men. Vader tried not to lose sight of that. If he had wanted mindless predictability, he would have commissioned droids for the Imperial Army.
He was aware of two people watching the duel intently from the dais set a little above the training-hall floor; his master Emperor Palpatine and one of his aides, Lieutenant Erv Lekauf. Part of his mind could sense Lekauf's discomfort at being so close to the Emperor without Vader beside him.
"Enough," said Vader, and shut down his lightsaber. The Cuis clone snapped his blade off too but watched Vader cautiously until he stood back to allow the clones to continue their lightsaber drill with the instructor. Vader was satisfied. The clones had retained all the speed and sharp reflexes of the unfortunate Emperor's Hand whose genome was now theirs. He hoped they had somehow inherited his extraordinary loyalty, too.


So first of all Vader comments that they are just as fast and skilled. They would naturally be equally as powerful as force sensitive clones like starkiller are commonly equal to their hosts:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) EKbNcQUm9aa4I3PrpK6zAbCbQFXeSCdJ6xmaUJhz5XWyt0FK5FEwV0INQno1iBooRg1lYFzDFF3_2_WZTUUVnXe6kT8oZDdFHaSWxATJeSxx4nsubNGhX4UHnonQ5q1lDGyNJSR-


Now with that information, Vader does this to multiple:


"Get clear," said Vader, and stabbed his Force reach through the shield of the Cuis clones, seizing their throats and crushing them. One yielded and Vader moved in fast, taking three strides forward and slashing his saber down to fell the clone.
...
He fell, gasping, as the clones closed in on the Dark Jedi and Vader burst apart their Force shields with pure focused rage.


Speculation on my part, but your post about a week ago on Joruus C’baoth vs Darth Tyranus detailed that you accepted Ant’s new methodology and that the requirement for someone to physically ragdoll the other and break the force barrier was a sign of a very large gap between the two. Wonderful, then I also assume you are willing to freely concede Vader about tripled in power in the span of one year, to the point where he can casually engage Sa Cuis’s clones in a lightsaber duel and not be stressed out by the speed or technique of the former emperors hand. You would also be conceding that Darth Vader is far beyond his initial 19bby self who was growing at an alarming rate in the span of a few months.
Conclusion: Vader has ragdoll gaps between himself in his annual growth rate.


Onwards to just before The Force Unleashed era:
Very simple here, we have huge gaps in knowledge of what happened so this is where the standard “he grew quotes” go:



Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.
-- Star Wars Visual Dictionary
As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.
-- Force And Destiny Core Rulebook
Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.
-- The Story Of Darth Vader
"My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger."
-- Galactic Battlegrounds


A New Hope:
There is a misconception on Vader during the Original trilogy era, most people use quotes citing the idea that he is “a shadow of his former self” or his fight with Ben as a point of contention for why Vader doesn’t grow much or in this case, why Vader is locked beneath Dooku. I feel I should just address some aspects of the fight that haven’t been mentioned before as well as Vader’s apparent inferiority to Ben. So for starters people argue that Ben and Vader are equals as of this fight some even going as far as to say that Ben is superior to Vader. I don’t really agree with that, but there is no reason to address it since IG hasn’t even mentioned Ben yet, what I will say is there is definitely evidence suggesting the opposite:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Sv7J5f-kHu7Ht2vj1Saaiqf4trz9wtDdsB1kIOaHbSo8JqLFsaheIOpxGF56D1Ck_n_u3kaYaYciITqwskTAhKAEJXuEBOmpQPYVTBe_dOwXa7b0LWyRZjOTFV8L_hAfjQsx5QM9
The Comic makes specific mention of an “invisible force” pressing down on Ben, which most of us would liken to age. Yet Fact File: 56 offers a different explanation, that being that it is Vader’s power overwhelming Kenobi:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Q6fxAa8D0MsJ8XRYFUEzNow_aUxm-rErgqT3gLExXAr2PZ6Q6WleUVkEXKlKhkI5VvxSC9ZlIXgPesbjK28uqXWWiASEbDgsmgjTGoED1pT3AxUhk-BHRO6aJD1ew1-8wk-ZkKCp


This is further supported by the A New Hope Novelisation, which reads: 


Several minutes followed without motion as the two men remained staring at each other, as if waiting for some proper, as yet unspoken signal.
Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.
"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."
"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."
Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord.


The men haven’t even crossed blades yet and Kenobi is already sweating. This is where Vader quotes the famous line: “Your powers are weak” indicating that he believes himself the stronger. Now, there is absolutely no reason to think that Kenobi is not defending himself here. There is no reason that he would let Vader drain his power, the only thing we can conclude from this example is that Vader’s hatred as Fact Files states: 


bore down on Obi-wan like a smothering fog, and the fallen Jedi mocked Kenobi’s failing powers.”bore down on Obi-wan like a smothering fog, and the fallen Jedi mocked Kenobi’s failing powers.” 


Furthermore, after Vader kills Kenobi he seems to get a boost in power similar to that he had when he killed Roan Shryne 19 years earlier. This is what Death Star has to say:


Yes! Fierce, exultant joy coursed through the man who had been Anakin Skywalker. He had done it! He had slain Obi-Wan Kenobi! His revenge was complete! From a distance he heard someone scream "Nooo!"-a cry of utter despair. But Vader paid it no heed. The dark side surged within him as powerfully as he had ever felt it-for an instant. But then it stopped. What had just happened? Vader looked down at the body. But there was no body. Only Obi-Wan's robes and cloak. This was impossible! It could not be!


If that isn’t enough evidence for you, it is confirmed by Fact File: 53 which states that after killing Vader he has proven himself to be the greater duelist and force user:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ZsA8omDx4MC3nVK7_ot8SOV_wsLhsYbyakAZPE_B-oQySeBfIqOBZMxyA7V3DVJ230sAyBoXJyKlFAcXB2cs0IduZ7WWXOGE19EdEIqy4gKAS3imhSPCJqHdFwtFufH3MT6Ou9Wp


That particular quote was also reprinted in Fact Files Relaunched: 1 (2013) and (2014):


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 0lzm1ZYM20v2Xnah0td7jG1U6A1wriZ5pSfLipSeYI2noXdC2senkuc5nnqiFbYljLK0SWmSyJXm5JFUKwPYnq9oOD5Y_npS957MeelmD7W6qYZMwLYm-2vEPCxmR8ndv-9MZ8cg


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) IOKEoGfjjD9g7tdMWkfmkgXExTaOVvkDyiz-GGnr_pxM7WccuH8FSKv4xnsklKHFz8fFElGb-DovAMGSpaE8JA5Tn0uMT0pd5aSf9_QwKxcXJMAyhwluBsw4LLI39hl6XqhWZ8yZ


So even if you think that Ben and Vader are relativistic throughout the duel, you have to contend with a quote originally from 2003 that was reprinted in 2013 and 2014 saying the exact same thing. Essentially, it would be very difficult for you to argue Vader and Ben are equal After the duel, and even before his boost Vader seems to hold an advantage over his foe.


Empire Strikes Back:


I’m not going to say much here, but Vader himself claims that ESB Luke is more of a challenge than Ben was during The Empire Strikes Back Audiodrama:


“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”


Quote is reaffirmed by an OOU source The Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) JiJIOi1YkZu76GMsbrMHpYMKFDI70toHIgI8el2KkWkovRMdMMRoh-cvNnPwKFoYc3wLOfh9dbt8v7aul5TNuTUcn1dAyUXKC3jwFSbuhlS9oiAKPDz1iZD6oaTYvpvPAJZDbXr7


As well as Vader’s own musings in Shadows of the Empire:


Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.
Shadows of the Empire

Now Vader’s relation to ESB Luke is one of vast superiority, he has a heavily “one-sided duel” with Luke on Bespin:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) AumKSL0mdqNUuv6b10AiLpQIPzJ65ixynqvXKlQm2Nz3oU3grZDnXZ-3p__mZkcJKJ-tQXNKBT6inWdX1EWTgHKL9WTVHEhpDxqL7eUd3AsO5pzFKbRz6YkEUwDNbzpjn0IBOeU8
 
Vader is noted to “easily” defeat his opponent
Like the Ben Kenobi statements this is echoed from 2003, 2013, and reprinted in 2014:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) XRkn28h_NcofEne-eTDnKlDe2Sj8Vms-rrDvGuKknjO_BAqnFp8cNTtXvpKBxY25LIOaawKq0OvGF8RxMdN6sTk96RArZEPvyZ8oiyYJD6ltXphjSR1_MPIrGoolvh9f1D1gVX52
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PL10C3jR33joeN1UpUAhpjuyuMBuN5PmsYQD0FrK3DlGojOIbNG2U7smidYMjxGqMq46CAjLI-_tGwBRavlg_mfdqhyqvIJ5dCkJh3FMw5BbQEL33PmvCv1sDgp2JGfkK4t7Sffs
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 8VdG1B9HYgHYYAGdT5NDIHt7eLHl42SQRI-HxTSzxYS0sQ0pEDKyLO4PUyMjsiz3ig6mjh_yMdV3_qB27VJsfsaoD9YeuSih7_JgAt8F4gqgMLtyPhhCLVaBYq-PsDTnfTyaiaOh


Furthermore, Vader was toying with Luke for most of the fight:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) VdMuAhl2TpuPPhMx23wLZuB1eX6b7sYz3MUkkl86A1i3ErOG46RyiI_la7-cL91IOd8ABMl1tgfyouo2A6thy3P-3ybZtKazt2pN9BVEHTFNZkVYPwbMG17N-FLuWOx19wBGg0bf


So even if you can somehow prove that Ben Kenobi is utterly superior to Vader as of A New Hope you would just be quantifying a massive growth he receives in the span of three years.
I’m going to save Return of the Jedi for another post, but it’s not really relevant to my argument right now. What you do need to know is that if Vader continues his growth span he has had for most of his life (no reason he wouldn’t) he would dwarf his ESB variation as well. That’s just addressing the preemptive lowballing arguments though, I’m sure after seeing this you won’t make me post on Return of the Jedi will you? I look forward to it if you do.


Connections to Dooku:



Kenobi:
Darth Tyranus is a very potent and powerful specimen, there is no doubt that he is one of the lesser Titans of his age, though I feel he is overinflated a lot by this fanbase. Allow me to present a more accurate depiction of the Count:


He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
[...]
He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
Revenge of the Sith novel


Kenobi has speed and defensive capabilities that Dooku “dare not strike.” While I freely admit that Dooku is likely a marginally better swordsman and probably has more refined technical skill, the passage here seems to indicate that Kenobi is at least as fast as Count Dooku and isn’t absolute fodder to him. Some will obviously cite the movie depiction of the fight wherein Dooku literally ragdolls Kenobi and sends him flying over the balcony, yet Kenobi is distracted when this happens: 


He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —


Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization




The relativity to Dooku that Kenobi shares is undeniable, and this gap would naturally get larger all throughout Revenge of the Sith up until the end, as we know that Kenobi grew to the point where he became equal to MFV:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ILu_bxz1I-TA_euIQ0ZP6cIQd30Dc1yOqDaBnurzk8wB8vKkdYW10jsga8VnHd3xbPVYI50z7CxvDsUpqTH5yj5kqzU90m9qn_CjzD6ioeSfYvWkboiifLjQRsHFsJ2jCsXGHUk0
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) DGf6FXEG2jXeZGF70nfDXhtpT2tQJz2X2NkYuoSmyjtelWpl3zUScrYn4O7p19sqG8_8EkhX0lc2VYGFVnI1H2HLg20gQ5BdPH17ahb1kSvegnKu1o32eBCXo0hohs0vsvqrhgsj



SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) T_pf-FqqiMXEhIkDA_bAlxSkprkM9vPgGygq8kKXw6CdnhBMWp7WE5Tqd2Ht0SKVwfMVNU14txZaX4Hyf-4Tuc93oVzTUtuM7eSbiDJKt17FPq7kslaxEuBwR18cqDAti6HHOmsy

Now, if you want to put MFK above ANH Kenobi that is more than understandable. Yet, we do know that Ben “continued his exercises” on tatooine during his time, and trained so that he should "be ready to face anything." Additionally, Ben has been studying the force for 19 years and “Honing his skills”, sure he very well might be weaker, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that he deteriorated in the first place. We know that Kenobi being equal with MFV means he jumped to a 9 or has the speed and power to contend with one at the end of ROTS, we also know from Gillard that “there are huge gaps between levels” so if Ben is weaker than his former self that being Mustafar Kenobi, could he not still be comparable to his Invisible hand variation in skill, did his power deteriorate at all? The better question is, isn’t it likely the man who has been “practicing his lightsaber techniques” and “honing his skills with the force” who “had not let his reflexes get dull” is at least relative to his most previous variation, that being Mustafar Kenobi? Well, that same Kenobi is utterly inferior to Vader in a few years anyway which means that it looks something like:

Rotj Vader > ESB Vader >>> Luke >> ANH Vader =< Ben ~ ROTS Kenobi ~ Dooku.




 
Physicality:




The Inferiority of Age:


Count Dooku is noted to be exhausted by several sources after toying with Obi-wan and Anakin during AOTC:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) KULgd5rtiLhl1IZ75m7E_glFnndCxzoikw9Wt6sU-LO1vP6zgCjkLFi91b_gpWxiorXHxEkislLGqg-Nrj4RsTZWJbM6li-k0IMNhK_7hh4qWqePcJ0F4favPZUbAlbvqNBzvVhS
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ZkOcSeCrNhgseAzFrMqq_zUo5WA0UQUMNhlXniha6zXB2YoAWMfgnZ8CYMxVlcFAnEB-zOOEfRGYBmsDBZcIAzJAhmQhffd8u0cV9VEfR_1L6mlaa8ZT_f3rrhiSjxxhtuvMa2Bq
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -mm74Q8a1Lp8QtB8uKJiJxkAGCc-oSMQeBDuO2V6Up_RmOuGcM91zrGud8BpX22exNNoD79_QrSJcrDm4YrzbOCGris3nTQFHr2dBJC9y01xDJQn-8uFnhiWwNDvNABMtvlmP0l_


This weakness carried over to TCW as Tholme notes:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 9R495LDoJt3d4jMXBNy9k5UILxP-fB9ggGWTGKnlG0GHbw9QO6eD6yiOk7DSUn0ji7EsgpRTA8UVnnCy2wJzgKIwkdepwT5jVXzEpZHU-M5mGJvAx9lerhDHfmfenNFHn9AuCQ5L


Now we know that Anakin Skywalker as of Revenge of the Sith is stronger than Dooku:


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.



That same strength can exhaust Dooku to the point he is willing to abandon his “honor” or “ego” and call for help:


Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"



We know that after his reconstruction Vader considers himself to be physically stronger to Anakin Skywalker: 

Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


We also know that Vader is physically stronger than he has ever been by Return of the Jedi:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 87k0nY-YzDwOipt6HrgCm6U0XjlI-Wk4Wr8i4qRCHG_zYcHa5ZQKh58bmmh3Jzk0a_hLuVL8P-APp8gOyxs4zrZkY61xcMIaWIablQa2angycwwELomNAkbPTpRk2eA9QlZssuoW
Which means that Vader should be overpowering Dooku more than he did as Anakin on the Invisible hand. Judging by that fight, we can conclude that each of Vader’s strikes are going to Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder” just as they did on the invisible hand. 


The Advantage of Being a Cyborg:
For starters as previously mentioned Vader is physically stronger than he was before, but what makes his condition viable against Dooku is the aforementioned stamina disadvantage, no such detraction can be attributed to Vader. Vader has a respirator which as noted for Darth Malgus maximize oxygen intake during battle, increasing stamina:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) CQn6D77Cg5umYWZYQXtsWP8IC8eUkUimnpWyir00kMBKUaFAiL74BvDGJh-iBLx7mfRtKV4yMf3J6o3-ixl6emuCyf3Lcq8_jh5zg9n2HoRN9RcKCkGSVKstwP8gz4wX500-er_F


Furthermore Vader has proven his immense stamina in a hours long duel with his former apprentice on board the Executor as describe in The Force Unleashed 2:


The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's first life, Vader had displayed no anger at all-just determination, not to kill his apprentice, but to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours, with Starkiller never landing a single blow, no matter how he tried. He had gone from excitement at thinking that he had graduated to a new level of mastery to realizing just how much he had left to learn. More fuel had been added to the hatred he had felt for his Master and tormentor, along with a twisted kind of love for the man who made him stronger by showing him how weak he was. The fight had only stopped when Starkiller collapsed unconscious showing him how weak he was. The fight had only stopped when Starkiller collapsed unconscious from exhaustion and was dragged by PROXY to his meditation chamber.
-- The Force Unleashed 2


A Margin For Error:
Combine that with Vader’s consistently lightsaber resistant armor and cybernetics capable of stopping blows and minimizing damage, while allowing Vader to continue fighting:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) UZ8cNd0UYIh93CsOj5dNWSFrpWjULAunW5y4AtDvCXS0uBTnEhhOuqQFmPCmwUmwmblOQQJO-qqCubc3g2ExQpszM8eGVdY42Nf1y9_5pJcI78JbI37T9cCVbaBp8pF30xMq5lJ5


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -lJLbopMwnBDwTJkjht83L0NsHbXgepgZs8XwAHISMt5AH5q8JATTl7M-he803HzyrXJWe5ZNdNLfi_E0CL90ayk_6WB-mkHH9U_lmeSJy2KpxeE2sgwwkYOMLvORVw6tDg3vCQy The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.
For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.
Then the Dark Lord laughed.
-The Force Unleashed
Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.
Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.
-The Force unleashed
All of these blows are superficial, in fact they don’t even cause Vader to bleed. The only time “some real blood was flowing” was after Galen Marek hurled a Generator at him, and even then he still has the resilience to stand:


The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.
He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.
The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.
-The Force unleashed
Back to the armor:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) O1W2eLrptirJ8wiqUo-d8iOy490dIjHCMYf3kt3bUAyFlT84VBP8kGVJBkUhXNxb0Wh61g4ZkNALazSJcV7HtjDbV7R9dZZlv8zlJMLFf6Yii76qX6KX36tPRQ49QfKrneHrxBUC


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -EkSVq0YwXJDCw3bpOd7saXRVQqD7flr2scynRhbHgO095u0TLWg9LbdKZV4Y_iO5BcOlQyfNPvDI09M1VJvC5XnQbw72lag2sUnsvBYteLu7-PrfdHxmCd3IBWbJeebHC56wR0A
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) DvjGHbCyOc3pEtdI3NED9A9KQVO4D1vnHZzroR7AToTFDfHzwDk8FXI5NIfpg4ReaOHkt6o-LnWtSw0J-rIgX_XZZZlIlvtc-exc0cb0Nph-m1LRXEd-dMZokJiJ6H1RSKGhKCkF


In addition to Gloves made of micronized Mandalorian Iron (Beskar) that can defend against anything that gets through Vader’s guard:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) WUPlP0YOqHRtv87mAfqvkF26LTYuZKTfuqnmd-tkhmn2OM1ZJu0WTblVH4bsXfGI7LzqADuYFRgrDOaZQuHDTQQHwVfVhbWMDTOFMq-c0IdxvK1YanrrIAtUj3MwIrm4yJpGryyp


Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip.Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward. The blade might have gotten past Vader's guard, but instead it glanced off the back of his upraised left hand, smoke curling from the black glove. Shryne countered quickly with an upsweep to Vader's neck, but Vader spun to the right, his blade held straight out in front of him as he completed a circle, nearly cutting Shryne in half.
-Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader




Conclusion:




It seems pretty easy to understand why Darth Vader is at a distinct advantage in this match. Unless you can prove a ragdoll tier gap, Vader is easily seen as relative to Dooku. While it’s easy to see Dooku having the speed advantage for the untrained eye. This great advantage over Vader is negated by the aforementioned armor. Dooku is a fencer, and his style as shown in Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and all his other media appearances, is based around minimalism. Dooku uses the least bit of effort required to beat his adversary and often doesn’t aim for grandiose sweeping strikes but minor cuts as he did when dealing with Kenobi (Attack of the Clones.) The problem with that style here is that it won’t work. Vader has more than enough showings of him fighting through such pain and injury with a consistent level of performance, and while Tyranus could score hits, all it will do is end up being a waste of energy. Then you factor in the fact that when the opportunity presents itself Vader is going to hit Dooku with blows that are more powerful than the ones shown to drain him and leach his energy, the conclusion becomes pitifully clear. 
Isv
Isv
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Yesterday at 3:06 pm
@Jacen wrote:ISV is fighting an uphill battle, but TAEP anyways.

Well, you were the only one who asked for a tag so here.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0
VIP Member
VIP Member

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Yesterday at 3:19 pm
IG
IG
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Yesterday at 3:20 pm
:betterthankun:
BoD
BoD
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Yesterday at 3:39 pm
Great post.
Sponsored content

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum