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The G Canon Purist
The G Canon Purist
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 1:56 pm
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Banner10 SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 2266747095

Vader is in his ROTJ iteration, Dooku is in his ROTS iteration

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the Guidelines thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

There will be 3 posts per side, and a 7500 character finisher with three weeks for both debaters to write each post, and two weeks to write the finisher.
IG
IG
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 2:13 pm
Lol ISV. Nice banner.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 2:54 pm
i thought u and BOD were doing this, but i guess not huh
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EmperorCaedus
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 13th 2020, 3:20 pm
ISV is fighting an uphill battle, but TAEP anyways.
BoD
BoD
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 14th 2020, 6:06 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i thought u and BOD were doing this, but i guess not huh
We were doing the canon one but we both got bored with it.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 14th 2020, 8:46 am
the list hath spoken.
The G Canon Purist
The G Canon Purist
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 16th 2020, 1:13 pm
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Uo0eKEVc_XwsACgUk4uW0lPePZYHKd6bqz7KHzp0JAcLLZIO49o02RBxBVrvlzH5ZWe09sFyfvIjyqGM7fgxhlWgRBv5S9pP9qzB0QTeiJ_A3-A0WC36J0wPoyXe19ZVWjQLE_vn

Darth Vader’s Growth Rate:




This is easily one of the most underrated things Vader has going for him in this match. People seem to think that Darth Vader’s earlier iterations and his later ones don’t have any quantifiable ways of proving how much he grew and what causes this growth. Thus I have devised a complete timeline of the events in Vader’s life where he grows how much he grows etc:


Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader (end of book)
Even at the start of Dark Lord the rise of Darth Vader, Vader comments that his feet weigh him down and if he must move with caution lest he stumble or trip over himself:


The tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose claw-like toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footgear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, they were so heavy that he often felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity. What good was motion of this sort, if he was going to have to call on the Force even to walk from place to place! He may as well have resigned himself to using a repulsor chair and abandoned any hope of movement."


 Vader’s comments of his hatred of the suit are important, they represent how restricted he had become since his time as a cyborg. The book takes place over the span of a few months, but when Darth Vader duels and kills Bol Chatak, the Jedi Olee Starstone witnesses it. Vader is damaged in this fight and has to return to Coruscant for repairs during which time he tells sidious he will be responsible for his armor and sidious agrees. Now what happens during this time isn’t clear, but what we do know is that Vader becomes faster than he had been when facing Bol Chatak:


But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.


Furthermore, after Vader has fought and beaten Roan Shryne:


Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space.Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder. Above him Vader jumped from the bridge, dropping to the floor with a grace he hadn't displayed before and alighting just meters away.


After killing Roan Shryne, Vader has this to say about himself:


More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.


So Vader who only a few months earlier complained about walking has gotten to the point where he considers his suit “little more than an outfit” and feels  “self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced.” Of course Sidious also echoes this statement by feeling Vader in a conversation after Kashyyyk:


Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.


Essentially, the point is that Darth Vader’s growth rate from a few months is colossal and there is no reason to assume It doesn’t continue through the rest of his life.


19 BBY (In His Image) - 18BBY (Two-Edged Sword)
Okay so to kick this off I have to include one of the instances of Vader’s yearly growth, which starts off with an assasination attempt by the emperor to test Vader’s mettle. He sends Sa Cuis after Vader to try and kill him, the results are a fairly even battle:


Vader matched him step for step in the standoff as they circled each other. Nothing personal. Perhaps Cuis thought that an ice-cold act would intimidate him. But it was anger and all the other brutal emotions that would win the fight.
Vader lunged.
My Master wants me dead.
He brought his saber down hard in a straight arc and Cuis blocked it with both of his, rasping them straight down its length as if sharpening a metal blade. Vader withdrew and sliced upward, then feinted to the left, wrong-footing the Jedi, who leapt back against the trunk of one of the trees. Vader made a double lunge on his right leg, dipping under the swirling twin beams.
He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it. My Master forced me to live and now he wants me dead. The trunk creaked and toppled and Cuis deflected the weight of branches with the Force. It bought Vader a second. He used it to send Cuis's white beam spinning into the fountain, clattering down the wet stones. As Cuis's remaining lightsaber flew from his left to his right hand, Vader intercepted it, jerking it high into the air and using the Force to throw it to the other side of the courtyard, out of reach.
Cuis leapt high and saved his legs from a savage low sweep, but his opponent had him backed up almost into the angle of the walls. Vader couldn't match Cuis's agility, so instead he reached out with his left hand: the Force seized Cuis's throat.
It gave Vader a familiar and painful jolt of recognition. He shut out what he knew was a memory. Instead he concentrated on using a wholly unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it. Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader's remote, crushing grip with his own Force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort. Vader forced him lower, and lower.


Vader here has a decent Duel with Sa Cuis and it’s noted even after Vader summons his “unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it.” that “Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader’s remote, crushing grip with his own force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort.” This is an example of Cuis contending with Vader’s power. It is only after his oxygen is drained that “Vader forced him lower, and lower.” The last bit of evidence that says that Vader was drawing on a rage amp that had “given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi.”:
He was still savoring rage, seeing how it had swept through him and given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi and keep the memories locked deep within. He shut down his energy blade with a flick of his thumb.
 Combine this with their earlier seemingly comparable duel and you can conclude that Cuis is definitely not just fodder to Vader, he has to work to overwhelm him. 


That idea doesn’t work anymore for his 18BBY iteration:


For a dead man, Sa Cuis still had a fine lightsaber technique. Lord Vader swung his blade and the two beams of red energy rasped off each other.
Cuis - one of his clones, anyway - circled and Vader matched him, keeping a constant distance between them. He had no intention of killing the assassin again. Arkanian Micro had spent more than a year creating this clone of the Dark Jedi and it would have been wasteful to destroy him or any of his five brothers simply to prove superiority.
Besides, they were men. Vader tried not to lose sight of that. If he had wanted mindless predictability, he would have commissioned droids for the Imperial Army.
He was aware of two people watching the duel intently from the dais set a little above the training-hall floor; his master Emperor Palpatine and one of his aides, Lieutenant Erv Lekauf. Part of his mind could sense Lekauf's discomfort at being so close to the Emperor without Vader beside him.
"Enough," said Vader, and shut down his lightsaber. The Cuis clone snapped his blade off too but watched Vader cautiously until he stood back to allow the clones to continue their lightsaber drill with the instructor. Vader was satisfied. The clones had retained all the speed and sharp reflexes of the unfortunate Emperor's Hand whose genome was now theirs. He hoped they had somehow inherited his extraordinary loyalty, too.


So first of all Vader comments that they are just as fast and skilled. They would naturally be equally as powerful as force sensitive clones like starkiller are commonly equal to their hosts:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) EKbNcQUm9aa4I3PrpK6zAbCbQFXeSCdJ6xmaUJhz5XWyt0FK5FEwV0INQno1iBooRg1lYFzDFF3_2_WZTUUVnXe6kT8oZDdFHaSWxATJeSxx4nsubNGhX4UHnonQ5q1lDGyNJSR-


Now with that information, Vader does this to multiple:


"Get clear," said Vader, and stabbed his Force reach through the shield of the Cuis clones, seizing their throats and crushing them. One yielded and Vader moved in fast, taking three strides forward and slashing his saber down to fell the clone.
...
He fell, gasping, as the clones closed in on the Dark Jedi and Vader burst apart their Force shields with pure focused rage.


Speculation on my part, but your post about a week ago on Joruus C’baoth vs Darth Tyranus detailed that you accepted Ant’s new methodology and that the requirement for someone to physically ragdoll the other and break the force barrier was a sign of a very large gap between the two. Wonderful, then I also assume you are willing to freely concede Vader about tripled in power in the span of one year, to the point where he can casually engage Sa Cuis’s clones in a lightsaber duel and not be stressed out by the speed or technique of the former emperors hand. You would also be conceding that Darth Vader is far beyond his initial 19bby self who was growing at an alarming rate in the span of a few months.
Conclusion: Vader has ragdoll gaps between himself in his annual growth rate.


Onwards to just before The Force Unleashed era:
Very simple here, we have huge gaps in knowledge of what happened so this is where the standard “he grew quotes” go:



Over time Vader has advanced in his ability to manipulate the dark side of the Force, and has used it to sustain his own damaged body as well as to persuade opponents of his will. Under the Emperor's tutelage, Vader learns to kill with mere suggestion.
-- Star Wars Visual Dictionary
As Darth Sidious's apprentice, Vader continues to expand his knowledge and the power of the dark side.
-- Force And Destiny Core Rulebook
Even his own generals could not escape Vader's wrath, and as time went by, the Sith's powers grew even stronger.
-- The Story Of Darth Vader
"My Master seems pleased; his apprentice grows ever stronger."
-- Galactic Battlegrounds


A New Hope:
There is a misconception on Vader during the Original trilogy era, most people use quotes citing the idea that he is “a shadow of his former self” or his fight with Ben as a point of contention for why Vader doesn’t grow much or in this case, why Vader is locked beneath Dooku. I feel I should just address some aspects of the fight that haven’t been mentioned before as well as Vader’s apparent inferiority to Ben. So for starters people argue that Ben and Vader are equals as of this fight some even going as far as to say that Ben is superior to Vader. I don’t really agree with that, but there is no reason to address it since IG hasn’t even mentioned Ben yet, what I will say is there is definitely evidence suggesting the opposite:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Sv7J5f-kHu7Ht2vj1Saaiqf4trz9wtDdsB1kIOaHbSo8JqLFsaheIOpxGF56D1Ck_n_u3kaYaYciITqwskTAhKAEJXuEBOmpQPYVTBe_dOwXa7b0LWyRZjOTFV8L_hAfjQsx5QM9
The Comic makes specific mention of an “invisible force” pressing down on Ben, which most of us would liken to age. Yet Fact File: 56 offers a different explanation, that being that it is Vader’s power overwhelming Kenobi:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Q6fxAa8D0MsJ8XRYFUEzNow_aUxm-rErgqT3gLExXAr2PZ6Q6WleUVkEXKlKhkI5VvxSC9ZlIXgPesbjK28uqXWWiASEbDgsmgjTGoED1pT3AxUhk-BHRO6aJD1ew1-8wk-ZkKCp


This is further supported by the A New Hope Novelisation, which reads: 


Several minutes followed without motion as the two men remained staring at each other, as if waiting for some proper, as yet unspoken signal.
Kenobi blinked once, shook his head, and tried to clear his eyes, which had begun to water slightly. Sweat beaded up on his forehead, and his eyelids fluttered again.
"Your powers are weak," Vader noted emotionlessly. "Old man, you should never have come back. It will make your end less peaceful than you might have wished."
"You sense only a part of the Force, Darth," Kenobi murmured with the assurance of one to whom death is merely another sensation, like sleeping or making love or touching a candle. "As always, you perceive its reality as little as a utensil perceives the taste of food."
Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord.


The men haven’t even crossed blades yet and Kenobi is already sweating. This is where Vader quotes the famous line: “Your powers are weak” indicating that he believes himself the stronger. Now, there is absolutely no reason to think that Kenobi is not defending himself here. There is no reason that he would let Vader drain his power, the only thing we can conclude from this example is that Vader’s hatred as Fact Files states: 


bore down on Obi-wan like a smothering fog, and the fallen Jedi mocked Kenobi’s failing powers."


Furthermore, after Vader kills Kenobi he seems to get a boost in power similar to that he had when he killed Roan Shryne 19 years earlier. This is what Death Star has to say:


Yes! Fierce, exultant joy coursed through the man who had been Anakin Skywalker. He had done it! He had slain Obi-Wan Kenobi! His revenge was complete! From a distance he heard someone scream "Nooo!"-a cry of utter despair. But Vader paid it no heed. The dark side surged within him as powerfully as he had ever felt it-for an instant. But then it stopped. What had just happened? Vader looked down at the body. But there was no body. Only Obi-Wan's robes and cloak. This was impossible! It could not be!


If that isn’t enough evidence for you, it is confirmed by Fact File: 53 which states that after killing Ben, he has proven himself to be the greater duelist and force user:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ZsA8omDx4MC3nVK7_ot8SOV_wsLhsYbyakAZPE_B-oQySeBfIqOBZMxyA7V3DVJ230sAyBoXJyKlFAcXB2cs0IduZ7WWXOGE19EdEIqy4gKAS3imhSPCJqHdFwtFufH3MT6Ou9Wp


That particular quote was also reprinted in Fact Files Relaunched: 1 (2013) and (2014):


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 0lzm1ZYM20v2Xnah0td7jG1U6A1wriZ5pSfLipSeYI2noXdC2senkuc5nnqiFbYljLK0SWmSyJXm5JFUKwPYnq9oOD5Y_npS957MeelmD7W6qYZMwLYm-2vEPCxmR8ndv-9MZ8cg


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) IOKEoGfjjD9g7tdMWkfmkgXExTaOVvkDyiz-GGnr_pxM7WccuH8FSKv4xnsklKHFz8fFElGb-DovAMGSpaE8JA5Tn0uMT0pd5aSf9_QwKxcXJMAyhwluBsw4LLI39hl6XqhWZ8yZ


So even if you think that Ben and Vader are relativistic throughout the duel, you have to contend with a quote originally from 2003 that was reprinted in 2013 and 2014 saying the exact same thing. Essentially, it would be very difficult for you to argue Vader and Ben are equal After the duel, and even before his boost Vader seems to hold an advantage over his foe.


Empire Strikes Back:


I’m not going to say much here, but Vader himself claims that ESB Luke is more of a challenge than Ben was during The Empire Strikes Back Audiodrama:


“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”


Quote is reaffirmed by an OOU source The Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) JiJIOi1YkZu76GMsbrMHpYMKFDI70toHIgI8el2KkWkovRMdMMRoh-cvNnPwKFoYc3wLOfh9dbt8v7aul5TNuTUcn1dAyUXKC3jwFSbuhlS9oiAKPDz1iZD6oaTYvpvPAJZDbXr7


As well as Vader’s own musings in Shadows of the Empire:


Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.
Shadows of the Empire

Now Vader’s relation to ESB Luke is one of vast superiority, he has a heavily “one-sided duel” with Luke on Bespin:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) AumKSL0mdqNUuv6b10AiLpQIPzJ65ixynqvXKlQm2Nz3oU3grZDnXZ-3p__mZkcJKJ-tQXNKBT6inWdX1EWTgHKL9WTVHEhpDxqL7eUd3AsO5pzFKbRz6YkEUwDNbzpjn0IBOeU8
 
Vader is noted to “easily” defeat his opponent
Like the Ben Kenobi statements this is echoed from 2003, 2013, and reprinted in 2014:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) XRkn28h_NcofEne-eTDnKlDe2Sj8Vms-rrDvGuKknjO_BAqnFp8cNTtXvpKBxY25LIOaawKq0OvGF8RxMdN6sTk96RArZEPvyZ8oiyYJD6ltXphjSR1_MPIrGoolvh9f1D1gVX52
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PL10C3jR33joeN1UpUAhpjuyuMBuN5PmsYQD0FrK3DlGojOIbNG2U7smidYMjxGqMq46CAjLI-_tGwBRavlg_mfdqhyqvIJ5dCkJh3FMw5BbQEL33PmvCv1sDgp2JGfkK4t7Sffs
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 8VdG1B9HYgHYYAGdT5NDIHt7eLHl42SQRI-HxTSzxYS0sQ0pEDKyLO4PUyMjsiz3ig6mjh_yMdV3_qB27VJsfsaoD9YeuSih7_JgAt8F4gqgMLtyPhhCLVaBYq-PsDTnfTyaiaOh


Furthermore, Vader was toying with Luke for most of the fight:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) VdMuAhl2TpuPPhMx23wLZuB1eX6b7sYz3MUkkl86A1i3ErOG46RyiI_la7-cL91IOd8ABMl1tgfyouo2A6thy3P-3ybZtKazt2pN9BVEHTFNZkVYPwbMG17N-FLuWOx19wBGg0bf


So even if you can somehow prove that Ben Kenobi is utterly superior to Vader as of A New Hope you would just be quantifying a massive growth he receives in the span of three years.
I’m going to save Return of the Jedi for another post, but it’s not really relevant to my argument right now. What you do need to know is that if Vader continues his growth span he has had for most of his life (no reason he wouldn’t) he would dwarf his ESB variation as well. That’s just addressing the preemptive lowballing arguments though, I’m sure after seeing this you won’t make me post on Return of the Jedi will you? I look forward to it if you do.


Connections to Dooku:



Kenobi:

Darth Tyranus is a very potent and powerful specimen, there is no doubt that he is one of the lesser Titans of his age, though I feel he is overinflated a lot by this fanbase. Allow me to present a more accurate depiction of the Count:

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
[...]
He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
Revenge of the Sith novel


Kenobi has speed and defensive capabilities that Dooku “dare not strike.” While I freely admit that Dooku is likely a marginally better swordsman and probably has more refined technical skill, the passage here seems to indicate that Kenobi is at least as fast as Count Dooku and isn’t absolute fodder to him. Some will obviously cite the movie depiction of the fight wherein Dooku literally ragdolls Kenobi and sends him flying over the balcony, yet Kenobi is distracted when this happens: 


He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —


Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization




The relativity to Dooku that Kenobi shares is undeniable, and this gap would naturally get larger all throughout Revenge of the Sith up until the end, as we know that Kenobi grew to the point where he became equal to MFV:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ILu_bxz1I-TA_euIQ0ZP6cIQd30Dc1yOqDaBnurzk8wB8vKkdYW10jsga8VnHd3xbPVYI50z7CxvDsUpqTH5yj5kqzU90m9qn_CjzD6ioeSfYvWkboiifLjQRsHFsJ2jCsXGHUk0
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) DGf6FXEG2jXeZGF70nfDXhtpT2tQJz2X2NkYuoSmyjtelWpl3zUScrYn4O7p19sqG8_8EkhX0lc2VYGFVnI1H2HLg20gQ5BdPH17ahb1kSvegnKu1o32eBCXo0hohs0vsvqrhgsj



SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) T_pf-FqqiMXEhIkDA_bAlxSkprkM9vPgGygq8kKXw6CdnhBMWp7WE5Tqd2Ht0SKVwfMVNU14txZaX4Hyf-4Tuc93oVzTUtuM7eSbiDJKt17FPq7kslaxEuBwR18cqDAti6HHOmsy

Now, if you want to put MFK above ANH Kenobi that is more than understandable. Yet, we do know that Ben “continued his exercises” on tatooine during his time, and trained so that he should "be ready to face anything." Additionally, Ben has been studying the force for 19 years and “Honing his skills”, sure he very well might be weaker, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that he deteriorated in the first place. We know that Kenobi being equal with MFV means he jumped to a 9 or has the speed and power to contend with one at the end of ROTS, we also know from Gillard that “there are huge gaps between levels” so if Ben is weaker than his former self that being Mustafar Kenobi, could he not still be comparable to his Invisible hand variation in skill, did his power deteriorate at all? The better question is, isn’t it likely the man who has been “practicing his lightsaber techniques” and “honing his skills with the force” who “had not let his reflexes get dull” is at least relative to his most previous variation, that being Mustafar Kenobi? Well, that same Kenobi is utterly inferior to Vader in a few years anyway which means that it looks something like:

Rotj Vader > ESB Vader >>> Luke >> ANH Vader =< Ben ~ ROTS Kenobi ~ Dooku.




 
Physicality:




The Inferiority of Age:


Count Dooku is noted to be exhausted by several sources after toying with Obi-wan and Anakin during AOTC:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) KULgd5rtiLhl1IZ75m7E_glFnndCxzoikw9Wt6sU-LO1vP6zgCjkLFi91b_gpWxiorXHxEkislLGqg-Nrj4RsTZWJbM6li-k0IMNhK_7hh4qWqePcJ0F4favPZUbAlbvqNBzvVhS
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ZkOcSeCrNhgseAzFrMqq_zUo5WA0UQUMNhlXniha6zXB2YoAWMfgnZ8CYMxVlcFAnEB-zOOEfRGYBmsDBZcIAzJAhmQhffd8u0cV9VEfR_1L6mlaa8ZT_f3rrhiSjxxhtuvMa2Bq
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -mm74Q8a1Lp8QtB8uKJiJxkAGCc-oSMQeBDuO2V6Up_RmOuGcM91zrGud8BpX22exNNoD79_QrSJcrDm4YrzbOCGris3nTQFHr2dBJC9y01xDJQn-8uFnhiWwNDvNABMtvlmP0l_


This weakness carried over to TCW as Tholme notes:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 9R495LDoJt3d4jMXBNy9k5UILxP-fB9ggGWTGKnlG0GHbw9QO6eD6yiOk7DSUn0ji7EsgpRTA8UVnnCy2wJzgKIwkdepwT5jVXzEpZHU-M5mGJvAx9lerhDHfmfenNFHn9AuCQ5L


Now we know that Anakin Skywalker as of Revenge of the Sith is stronger than Dooku:


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.



That same strength can exhaust Dooku to the point he is willing to abandon his “honor” or “ego” and call for help:


Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"



We know that after his reconstruction Vader considers himself to be physically stronger to Anakin Skywalker: 

Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


We also know that Vader is physically stronger than he has ever been by Return of the Jedi:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 87k0nY-YzDwOipt6HrgCm6U0XjlI-Wk4Wr8i4qRCHG_zYcHa5ZQKh58bmmh3Jzk0a_hLuVL8P-APp8gOyxs4zrZkY61xcMIaWIablQa2angycwwELomNAkbPTpRk2eA9QlZssuoW
Which means that Vader should be overpowering Dooku more than he did as Anakin on the Invisible hand. Judging by that fight, we can conclude that each of Vader’s strikes are going to force Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder” just as they did on the invisible hand. 


The Advantage of Being a Cyborg:

For starters as previously mentioned Vader is physically stronger than he was before, but what makes his condition viable against Dooku is the aforementioned stamina disadvantage, no such detraction can be attributed to Vader. Vader has a respirator which as noted for Darth Malgus maximize oxygen intake during battle, increasing stamina:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) CQn6D77Cg5umYWZYQXtsWP8IC8eUkUimnpWyir00kMBKUaFAiL74BvDGJh-iBLx7mfRtKV4yMf3J6o3-ixl6emuCyf3Lcq8_jh5zg9n2HoRN9RcKCkGSVKstwP8gz4wX500-er_F


Furthermore Vader has proven his immense stamina in a hours long duel with his former apprentice on board the Executor as describe in The Force Unleashed 2:


The first time they had dueled, in Starkiller's first life, Vader had displayed no anger at all-just determination, not to kill his apprentice, but to wear him into submission. The fight had raged across the training deck of the Executor for hours, with Starkiller never landing a single blow, no matter how he tried. He had gone from excitement at thinking that he had graduated to a new level of mastery to realizing just how much he had left to learn. More fuel had been added to the hatred he had felt for his Master and tormentor, along with a twisted kind of love for the man who made him stronger by showing him how weak he was. The fight had only stopped when Starkiller collapsed unconscious showing him how weak he was. The fight had only stopped when Starkiller collapsed unconscious from exhaustion and was dragged by PROXY to his meditation chamber.
-- The Force Unleashed 2


A Margin For Error:

Combine that with Vader’s consistently lightsaber resistant armor and cybernetics capable of stopping blows and minimizing damage, while allowing Vader to continue fighting:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) UZ8cNd0UYIh93CsOj5dNWSFrpWjULAunW5y4AtDvCXS0uBTnEhhOuqQFmPCmwUmwmblOQQJO-qqCubc3g2ExQpszM8eGVdY42Nf1y9_5pJcI78JbI37T9cCVbaBp8pF30xMq5lJ5


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -lJLbopMwnBDwTJkjht83L0NsHbXgepgZs8XwAHISMt5AH5q8JATTl7M-he803HzyrXJWe5ZNdNLfi_E0CL90ayk_6WB-mkHH9U_lmeSJy2KpxeE2sgwwkYOMLvORVw6tDg3vCQy

The lightsabers flashed again - and it was the apprentice who found the chink in the armor that both of them had been waiting for. Vader's lightsaber moved too slowly to block a blow to his chest, allowing the apprentice's blade to slash deeply across his armored throat. Vader staggered backward, gloved hand upraised to the smoking wound.
There was no blood. Instead of pressing the attack, the apprentice stood his ground. Despite himself, he was as surprised as his former Master clearly was.
For a moment, the only sounds were the twin humming of the lightsabers and the wheezing of Darth Vader's respirator.
Then the Dark Lord laughed.
-The Force Unleashed

Anger flared. He lunged forward. His former Master barely blocked the blow. A second scored a deep wound across his black-clad shoulder. A third stabbed deep into his thigh.
Darth Vader reeled backward, servos whining in his injured limbs and lightsaber shaking.
-The Force unleashed

All of these blows are superficial, in fact they don’t even cause Vader to bleed. The only time “some real blood was flowing” was after Galen Marek hurled a Generator at him, and even then he still has the resilience to stand:


The generator exploded with greater force than he had expected, throwing him and everyone else to the floor. The transparisteel dome shattered. Debris rained everywhere. The sound of the explosion rang in his ears for an unnaturally long time afterward.
He was the first to his feet, striding across the rubble to where Darth Vader lay face-forward, gravely wounded and stripped of his armor in places. Flesh and machinery showed through the gaps. Finally, some real blood was flowing.
The apprentice stood over him with his lightsaber upraised and ready to strike. His former Master was trying to stand, feebly willing his massive bulk to move as it was supposed to. Servomotors whined and strained. When he rolled over, the apprentice froze.
-The Force unleashed

Back to the armor:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) O1W2eLrptirJ8wiqUo-d8iOy490dIjHCMYf3kt3bUAyFlT84VBP8kGVJBkUhXNxb0Wh61g4ZkNALazSJcV7HtjDbV7R9dZZlv8zlJMLFf6Yii76qX6KX36tPRQ49QfKrneHrxBUC


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) -EkSVq0YwXJDCw3bpOd7saXRVQqD7flr2scynRhbHgO095u0TLWg9LbdKZV4Y_iO5BcOlQyfNPvDI09M1VJvC5XnQbw72lag2sUnsvBYteLu7-PrfdHxmCd3IBWbJeebHC56wR0A
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) DvjGHbCyOc3pEtdI3NED9A9KQVO4D1vnHZzroR7AToTFDfHzwDk8FXI5NIfpg4ReaOHkt6o-LnWtSw0J-rIgX_XZZZlIlvtc-exc0cb0Nph-m1LRXEd-dMZokJiJ6H1RSKGhKCkF


In addition to Gloves made of micronized Mandalorian Iron (Beskar) that can defend against anything that gets through Vader’s guard:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) WUPlP0YOqHRtv87mAfqvkF26LTYuZKTfuqnmd-tkhmn2OM1ZJu0WTblVH4bsXfGI7LzqADuYFRgrDOaZQuHDTQQHwVfVhbWMDTOFMq-c0IdxvK1YanrrIAtUj3MwIrm4yJpGryyp


Lightsaber grasped in both hands, Vader took a single forward step and performed a lightning-fast underhand sweep that almost knocked Forte's lightsaber from Shryne's grip.Spinning, Shryne regained his balance and raced forward, feinting a diagonal slash from the left, then twisting the blade around to the right and surging forward. The blade might have gotten past Vader's guard, but instead it glanced off the back of his upraised left hand, smoke curling from the black glove. Shryne countered quickly with an upsweep to Vader's neck, but Vader spun to the right, his blade held straight out in front of him as he completed a circle, nearly cutting Shryne in half.
-Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader




Conclusion:




It seems pretty easy to understand why Darth Vader is at a distinct advantage in this match. Unless you can prove a ragdoll tier gap, Vader is easily seen as relative to Dooku. While it’s easy to see Dooku having the speed advantage for the untrained eye. This great advantage over Vader is negated by the aforementioned armor. Dooku is a fencer, and his style as shown in Attack of the Clones, Revenge of the Sith, and all his other media appearances, is based around minimalism. Dooku uses the least bit of effort required to beat his adversary and often doesn’t aim for grandiose sweeping strikes but minor cuts as he did when dealing with Kenobi (Attack of the Clones.) The problem with that style here is that it won’t work. Vader has more than enough showings of him fighting through such pain and injury with a consistent level of performance, and while Tyranus could score hits, all it will do is end up being a waste of energy. Then you factor in the fact that when the opportunity presents itself Vader is going to hit Dooku with blows that are more powerful than the ones shown to drain him and leach his energy, the conclusion becomes pitifully clear. 


Last edited by Isv on February 17th 2020, 5:29 pm; edited 7 times in total
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 16th 2020, 3:06 pm
Jacen wrote:ISV is fighting an uphill battle, but TAEP anyways.

Well, you were the only one who asked for a tag so here.
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 16th 2020, 3:19 pm
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 16th 2020, 3:20 pm
:betterthankun:
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 16th 2020, 3:39 pm
Great post.
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 17th 2020, 3:50 pm
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Holy shit dude. You've been holding out on us. Post was absolute fire.
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 19th 2020, 4:50 pm
Section I - Vader Lowballing: The Beginning




ISV wrote:This is easily one of the most underrated things Vader has going for him in this match. People seem to think that Darth Vader’s earlier iterations and his later ones don’t have any quantifiable ways of proving how much he grew and what causes this growth. Thus I have devised a complete timeline of the events in Vader’s life where he grows how much he grows etc:


Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader (end of book)
Even at the start of Dark Lord the rise of Darth Vader, Vader comments that his feet weigh him down and if he must move with caution lest he stumble or trip over himself:


The tall boots were a poor fit for his artificial feet, whose claw-like toes lacked the electrostatic sensitivity of his equally false fingertips. Raised in the heel, the cumbersome footgear canted him slightly forward, forcing him to move with exaggerated caution lest he stumble or topple over. Worse, they were so heavy that he often felt rooted to the ground, or as if he were moving in high gravity. What good was motion of this sort, if he was going to have to call on the Force even to walk from place to place! He may as well have resigned himself to using a repulsor chair and abandoned any hope of movement."


 Vader’s comments of his hatred of the suit are important, they represent how restricted he had become since his time as a cyborg. The book takes place over the span of a few months, but when Darth Vader duels and kills Bol Chatak, the Jedi Olee Starstone witnesses it. Vader is damaged in this fight and has to return to Coruscant for repairs during which time he tells sidious he will be responsible for his armor and sidious agrees. Now what happens during this time isn’t clear, but what we do know is that Vader becomes faster than he had been when facing Bol Chatak:


But Vader merely stood like a statue, his blade angled toward the ground until the very instant the two Jedi unleashed their assault. Then, as the three blades joined in scatterings of dazzling light and grating static sounds, he moved. Forte and Kulka were skilled duelists, but Vader was not only faster than Starstone remembered him being on Murkhana against Master Chatak, but also more agile. He employed his awesome power to put a quick end to the fancy twirling of his opponents, who fell back against the hammering blows of Vader's bloodshine blade.


Furthermore, after Vader has fought and beaten Roan Shryne:


Another board, whirling end-over-end, came out of nowhere, hitting him in the kidneys. Reflexively the hand that was grasping the railing went to the small of his back, and he lost balance. Trying but failing to catch himself, he fell through space.Give in the wooden floor saved his life, but at the expense of all the bones in his left arm and shoulder. Above him Vader jumped from the bridge, dropping to the floor with a grace he hadn't displayed before and alighting just meters away.


After killing Roan Shryne, Vader has this to say about himself:


More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.


So Vader who only a few months earlier complained about walking has gotten to the point where he considers his suit “little more than an outfit” and feels  “self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced.” Of course Sidious also echoes this statement by feeling Vader in a conversation after Kashyyyk:


Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals.


Essentially, the point is that Darth Vader’s growth rate from a few months is colossal and there is no reason to assume It doesn’t continue through the rest of his life.



Why is Vader’s growth from when he literally just gets in his suit to a few months later going to be indicative of linear growth throughout? Vader just got into a metal suit that restricts his every movement, of course he isn’t going to be comfortable in it. It’s like saying that somebody became thinner because the first time they put something on, it felt really tight, but after a while, it was comfortable. Vader’s boost post-Shryne isn’t a normal power increase either, as he states in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader:




Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:“I owe you a debt," he told Vader. "It took you to bring me back to the Force."

 "And you to firm my faith in the power of the dark side, Master Shryne.”



After fighting Kenobi on Mustafar, Vader doesn’t even have that much faith in the Dark Side’s power, there’s no doubt that once his faith in its power has returned, he’ll improve a lot more. Another thing to note is that Vader’s power growth should begin to lessen and lessen as he ages; we expect a youngling or padawan to grow at a far greater pace than a master. He lacks his youthful energy when he’s in his 40s, he’s in his early 20s as of 19 BBY, so his growth is naturally better.




ISV wrote:Okay so to kick this off I have to include one of the instances of Vader’s yearly growth, which starts off with an assasination attempt by the emperor to test Vader’s mettle. He sends Sa Cuis after Vader to try and kill him, the results are a fairly even battle:


Vader matched him step for step in the standoff as they circled each other. Nothing personal. Perhaps Cuis thought that an ice-cold act would intimidate him. But it was anger and all the other brutal emotions that would win the fight.
Vader lunged.
My Master wants me dead.
He brought his saber down hard in a straight arc and Cuis blocked it with both of his, rasping them straight down its length as if sharpening a metal blade. Vader withdrew and sliced upward, then feinted to the left, wrong-footing the Jedi, who leapt back against the trunk of one of the trees. Vader made a double lunge on his right leg, dipping under the swirling twin beams.
He needed to force Cuis into a confined space to deny him the advantage of two lightsabers. There had once been a boy called Anakin who could have done that with sheer technique, but he was forgotten, and the transformed man that was Vader opted for sheer power and began a fast, furious slashing assault, slicing through a tree trunk as Cuis dodged behind it. My Master forced me to live and now he wants me dead. The trunk creaked and toppled and Cuis deflected the weight of branches with the Force. It bought Vader a second. He used it to send Cuis's white beam spinning into the fountain, clattering down the wet stones. As Cuis's remaining lightsaber flew from his left to his right hand, Vader intercepted it, jerking it high into the air and using the Force to throw it to the other side of the courtyard, out of reach.
Cuis leapt high and saved his legs from a savage low sweep, but his opponent had him backed up almost into the angle of the walls. Vader couldn't match Cuis's agility, so instead he reached out with his left hand: the Force seized Cuis's throat.
It gave Vader a familiar and painful jolt of recognition. He shut out what he knew was a memory. Instead he concentrated on using a wholly unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it. Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader's remote, crushing grip with his own Force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort. Vader forced him lower, and lower.


Vader here has a decent Duel with Sa Cuis and it’s noted even after Vader summons his “unexpected surge of rage and hatred to flood the gap it left and overwhelm it.” that “Cuis staggered back against the wall, struggling against Vader’s remote, crushing grip with his own force power. Then he sank to his knees, shaking with the effort.” This is an example of Cuis contending with Vader’s power. It is only after his oxygen is drained that “Vader forced him lower, and lower.” The last bit of evidence that says that Vader was drawing on a rage amp that had “given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi.”:
He was still savoring rage, seeing how it had swept through him and given him the power to defeat a faster Jedi and keep the memories locked deep within. He shut down his energy blade with a flick of his thumb.
 Combine this with their earlier seemingly comparable duel and you can conclude that Cuis is definitely not just fodder to Vader, he has to work to overwhelm him. 


That idea doesn’t work anymore for his 18BBY iteration:


For a dead man, Sa Cuis still had a fine lightsaber technique. Lord Vader swung his blade and the two beams of red energy rasped off each other.
Cuis - one of his clones, anyway - circled and Vader matched him, keeping a constant distance between them. He had no intention of killing the assassin again. Arkanian Micro had spent more than a year creating this clone of the Dark Jedi and it would have been wasteful to destroy him or any of his five brothers simply to prove superiority.
Besides, they were men. Vader tried not to lose sight of that. If he had wanted mindless predictability, he would have commissioned droids for the Imperial Army.
He was aware of two people watching the duel intently from the dais set a little above the training-hall floor; his master Emperor Palpatine and one of his aides, Lieutenant Erv Lekauf. Part of his mind could sense Lekauf's discomfort at being so close to the Emperor without Vader beside him.
"Enough," said Vader, and shut down his lightsaber. The Cuis clone snapped his blade off too but watched Vader cautiously until he stood back to allow the clones to continue their lightsaber drill with the instructor. Vader was satisfied. The clones had retained all the speed and sharp reflexes of the unfortunate Emperor's Hand whose genome was now theirs. He hoped they had somehow inherited his extraordinary loyalty, too.


So first of all Vader comments that they are just as fast and skilled. They would naturally be equally as powerful as force sensitive clones like starkiller are commonly equal to their hosts:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) A_AOz0XdL_VjjVwuNwOtMVmGGR-4iOxUTtizpoSOh6a0i3_HCOvmOq9r8KR_u1ItBzbDdw8SClWYpwVdRxss7sDsbw1HBkAh3M6Pf-LLUmftNAuQDQuxsfshj59evcwsvvskYnX_


Now with that information, Vader does this to multiple:


"Get clear," said Vader, and stabbed his Force reach through the shield of the Cuis clones, seizing their throats and crushing them. One yielded and Vader moved in fast, taking three strides forward and slashing his saber down to fell the clone.
...
He fell, gasping, as the clones closed in on the Dark Jedi and Vader burst apart their Force shields with pure focused rage.


Speculation on my part, but your post about a week ago on Joruus C’baoth vs Darth Tyranus detailed that you accepted Ant’s new methodology and that the requirement for someone to physically ragdoll the other and break the force barrier was a sign of a very large gap between the two. Wonderful, then I also assume you are willing to freely concede Vader about tripled in power in the span of one year, to the point where he can casually engage Sa Cuis’s clones in a lightsaber duel and not be stressed out by the speed or technique of the former emperors hand. You would also be conceding that Darth Vader is far beyond his initial 19bby self who was growing at an alarming rate in the span of a few months.
Conclusion: Vader has ragdoll gaps between himself in his annual growth rate.



Yet Vader’s so called “massive” growth isn’t necessarily linear. There’s nothing that substantiates the notion. Anakin’s growth from TPM to AOTC is utterly nothing compared to his AOTC to ROTS growth. Likewise Obi-Wan’s growth from TPM to AOTC is minimal in contrast to his growth from AOTC to ROTS. Also to note is that if Vader grows a ragdoll gap each year, that’s around 23 ragdoll gaps he grows before his death. Given that the gap between Maul and SIdious as of TCW isn’t that large, it’s impossible to say that Vader grows 23 times a lot more than that one gap. It makes no sense whatsoever without rendering Vader far more powerful than perhaps even Prime Luke, ROTJ Sidious, etc. It’s like… He can’t utterly oneshot SK in TFU 2, despite the so called “ragdoll gaps” he jumps in between games. As of ANH, he struggles with Ben. Even if somehow Ben is with his ROTS iteration as you claim, then how has Vader fallen 19 ragdoll gaps after his dismemberment? Are you claiming Roan Shryne is 19 ragdoll gaps beneath Ben? Like the sheer absurdity of that claim astounds me. 19 ragdoll gaps, as I’ve said already, are 19 gaps that are larger than the gaps between Maul and Sidious. Like is it feasible to claim that 19 ragdoll gaps exist between Ben and 19 BBY Vader? Between Ben and Celeste Morne? The implications here are astounding; ESB Luke is somehow what, 10 ragdoll gaps above Shryne? 20? What you’re claiming makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 




ISV wrote:There is a misconception on Vader during the Original trilogy era, most people use quotes citing the idea that he is “a shadow of his former self” or his fight with Ben as a point of contention for why Vader doesn’t grow much or in this case, why Vader is locked beneath Dooku. I feel I should just address some aspects of the fight that haven’t been mentioned before as well as Vader’s apparent inferiority to Ben. So for starters people argue that Ben and Vader are equals as of this fight some even going as far as to say that Ben is superior to Vader. I don’t really agree with that, but there is no reason to address it since IG hasn’t even mentioned Ben yet, what I will say is there is definitely evidence suggesting the opposite:



While there may be evidence stating that Vader is > Kenobi, there’s far more compelling evidence to the contrary, from sources such as Leland Chee and George Lucas himself:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 9q-EAHJXLPNjgk38sR8jk2c76d_oBEXdANXqYglbVElV5qVXZEfg5Fw_XDhUke3edNB3mwXtEEcZfoLS7bxi5Onio-OooziffBq7Ob6cdpCXwJ2el0241UM0hMAlU9azWDNf9vRs


Here we see Chee saying that Kenobi > Vader. There aren’t mental gymnastics required to clarify this, he outright states “Obi-Wan is stronger than Vader in EP4”. Likewise, DK books clarify that Kenobi intentionally threw the fight, something Chee hints at when he says that Obi-Wan ‘lost’ to Vader in quotation marks. 


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) SsbDgeOomuG00XjeEkH1KGCYVggr58MWqxDi-GYASWRCpUCNJh8_ceXONXCGpvEvTiSaQgzviS8A8FG9iqOzTiR2-NbtUXLPKVaZGO4Q2wjH_a9R8fM7jKDTK6sM9CCoDGsQt3I7


According to Lucas, Obi-Wan is a “6”, Vader is a “4”, and ESB Luke is a “2”. A common rebuttal to this is the “Vader is 80% of Sidious” quote, something that makes no sense whatsoever. All scales don’t have similar increases--they aren’t proportional. Obi-Wan being a 6 comparative to Vader’s 4 doesn’t mean he’s 1.5x more powerful, it means he’s more powerful, but by an indeterminate amount. 




ISV wrote:I’m not going to say much here, but Vader himself claims that ESB Luke is more of a challenge than Ben was during The Empire Strikes Back Audiodrama:


“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”


Quote is reaffirmed by an OOU source The Shadows of the Empire Sourcebook:

[...]

As well as Vader’s own musings in Shadows of the Empire:


Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.
Shadows of the Empire

Now Vader’s relation to ESB Luke is one of vast superiority, he has a heavily “one-sided duel” with Luke on Bespin:



To begin, Vader’s quote in ESB explains itself, Luke’s mobility makes him somebody that Vader enjoys fighting more than Obi-Wan; sport is defined as, “an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment”. Meaning that Vader finds Luke a more entertaining fight than he found Kenobi. 


As for your Shadows of the Empire statements, they make no sense. Luke being the strongest of all Jedi means he’s stronger than Yoda ever was, and Vader (as Anakin) knew Yoda, and how powerful he was. He also knew that Yoda was strong enough to face Sidious in a head-on duel. Yet Lucas remarks that Vader is “no longer as strong as the Emperor [during ROTS]” after Kenobi disembowels him. Of course you could assume that it means that Luke is only > Ben (as you are), but the fact that the statement encompasses all Jedi, evidenced by “the other Jedi were all extinct” means that Vader is referring to all of the Jedi that ever lived, or at least those that he has met. 



Section II - Why ESB Luke is Far Inferior to Dooku




ISV wrote:Kenobi:

Darth Tyranus is a very potent and powerful specimen, there is no doubt that he is one of the lesser Titans of his age, though I feel he is overinflated a lot by this fanbase. Allow me to present a more accurate depiction of the Count:

He threw himself spinning up and away from the two Jedi to land on the situation table, disengaging for a moment to recover his composure-that had been entirely too close-but by the time his boots touched down Kenobi was there to meet him, blade weaving through a defensive velocity so bewilderingly fast that Dooku dared not even try a strike; he threw a feint toward Kenobi's face, then dropped and spun in a reverse ankle-sweep-But not only did Kenobi easily overleap this attack, Dooku nearly lost his own foot to a slash from Skywalker who had again come out of nowhere and now carved through the table so that it collapsed under Dooku's weight and dumped the Sith Lord unceremoniously to the floor. This was not in the plan."
[...]
He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.
Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.
Revenge of the Sith novel


Kenobi has speed and defensive capabilities that Dooku “dare not strike.” While I freely admit that Dooku is likely a marginally better swordsman and probably has more refined technical skill, the passage here seems to indicate that Kenobi is at least as fast as Count Dooku and isn’t absolute fodder to him. Some will obviously cite the movie depiction of the fight wherein Dooku literally ragdolls Kenobi and sends him flying over the balcony, yet Kenobi is distracted when this happens: 


He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —


Count Dooku half-turned and raised a hand. A rush of dark power lifted Obi-Wan off his feet and choked the air from his lungs. He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. He saw Dooku twist, kicking out at Anakin with all his weight behind it. Anakin fell backward, and Dooku hurled Obi-Wan over the edge of the balcony.


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization




The relativity to Dooku that Kenobi shares is undeniable, and this gap would naturally get larger all throughout Revenge of the Sith up until the end, as we know that Kenobi grew to the point where he became equal to MFV:



Dooku’s surprise at Kenobi rapidly changing his style from Shii-Cho and Ataro (two forms that he is explicitly familiar with, Shii-Cho being a basic form taught to younglings and Ataro being the preferred form of Dooku’s own apprentice--and Kenobi’s master) is not at all indicative of a fight on even grounds between the pair. In fact, once Dooku becomes remotely aware of what Kenobi’s doing, he (while extremely exhausted nonetheless) is capable of using “the slightest whipcrack” of power to throw Kenobi back (and even if Kenobi does have his wall down, it’s rather embarrassing that “the master” of Soresu, the foremost defensive style is caught with his pants down--unless Dooku is able to move so quickly that Kenobi is completely unable to put his wall back up) with a “negligent flick” of his wrist.  


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PkVAFW9bXy7-_GDDVaL3af6HsYIJ7LuEeemOuZ8KtgSAl4DBTe5duVf_FPk14KyqwRBA7a-E8feOp2NGnxNtU-_VetjsWCU7A-nweh-VXiQrFWbD0HEMlpYtZzQE8CGKT5lhhRKI


Obi Wan is described as being “almost impossible” to take by surprise, meaning that as you’ve indicated, Dooku is able to attack so quickly, so “sudden[ly]”, as your junior novelization puts it, that Kenobi is caught off-guard is a clear depiction of a massive disparity between the pair. Dooku is able to fight Anakin-effing-Skywalker and Obi-Wan at the same time, yet is able to knock Skywalker aside and then easily toss Kenobi away is demonstrative of disparity. While Dooku is not shown to be able to easily tear through Kenobi’s barrier, he’s shown the ability to attack Kenobi and augment himself to a sufficient degree that Kenobi is incapable of countering him, even after the latter has realized what’s going on. 


Barriers are extremely easy to throw up--shown by Kas’im:




Path of Destruction wrote:"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.



At “the last possible instant”, he’s able to protect himself from a massive TK blast of Bane’s, something that Kenobi is incapable of doing, by no fault of his own, it’s just that Dooku is so quick that he can augment himself faster than Kenobi (also augmenting himself, as this is a combat situation) cannot react. 


Now on-towards MFK. It makes no sense to assume that Anakin is anything but hindered on Mustafar. Gillard notes that Anakin hasn’t “mastered the mental side of fighting” yet, and it is also noted that Anakin is “consumed by his rage” on Mustafar. Kenobi’s “equality” to him is lackluster, as it’s explicitly noted to be because of their mutual experience with one another. While obviously the connection goes two ways, it’s important to note that the connection should help Kenobi more, as he’s a defensive fighter. In the Revenge of the Sith novel, it’s noted that with every exchange, Kenobi “gave ground”, and that it, “was his way”. 





ISV wrote:Now, if you want to put MFK above ANH Kenobi that is more than understandable. Yet, we do know that Ben “continued his exercises” on tatooine during his time, and trained so that he should "be ready to face anything." Additionally, Ben has been studying the force for 19 years and “Honing his skills”, sure he very well might be weaker, but the burden of proof is on you to prove that he deteriorated in the first place. We know that Kenobi being equal with MFV means he jumped to a 9 or has the speed and power to contend with one at the end of ROTS, we also know from Gillard that “there are huge gaps between levels” so if Ben is weaker than his former self that being Mustafar Kenobi, could he not still be comparable to his Invisible hand variation in skill, did his power deteriorate at all? The better question is, isn’t it likely the man who has been “practicing his lightsaber techniques” and “honing his skills with the force” who “had not let his reflexes get dull” is at least relative to his most previous variation, that being Mustafar Kenobi? Well, that same Kenobi is utterly inferior to Vader in a few years anyway which means that it looks something like:

Rotj Vader > ESB Vader >>> Luke >> ANH Vader =< Ben ~ ROTS Kenobi ~ Dooku.



Kenobi declining over his stay on Tatooine is explicitly noted by the fact that he is a “shadow of his former self”. Vader tells Kenobi “Your powers are weak, old man”, explicitly noting the fact that Kenobi is weaker than he once was, and that he’s now an old man, with far inferior stamina. Light-siders tend to decline around the middle age, Qui-Gon did so, Obi-Wan is seemingly doing so (I think he does at least, given the wealth of evidence that supports the notion).


Gillard explicitly notes that Kenobi is an “8”, however. Vader’s hindrance on Mustafar is illustrated by his lack of mastery of “the mental side of fighting”, and also the fact that he’s “consumed by his rage”, two mental detractors. There’s many examples of how mental hindrances negatively affect one in a fight, with perhaps no more prominent of an example being the fight between Luke and Caedus on the Anakin Solo, something I’m not going to delve into in detail as this isn’t a Caedus debate. 


You conclude here that Luke >> ANH Vader by his “superiority” to Ben. Yet this makes no sense. As of ESB, Luke deems the very idea of moving even an X-Wing out of a swamp “impossible”. Let alone by himself, he believes nobody can do it, including Yoda, and even Vader. Yet we see Dooku casually throwing around massive ships, including a carrier with ease:




Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."





Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily.



While one might argue that Dooku is amped by the nexus of Korriban, and therefore this feat is non-applicable to Dooku’s base state, there is evidence to the contrary. 




Star Wars: The Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:He had felt like this on Korriban. When along with the Padawans and their Masters they had gone into the great valley of the Sith, into their very tombs. That radiating energy had caused them to feel dizzy and sick. He paused. He must be near Sith artifacts. Maybe a Holocron. That would explain it. Well, he had conquered the feeling then, as a boy of sixteen. He could do it again. He just had to keep going-Then the voices began.



Here, Ferus Olin likens the sensations that Sith Holocrons or Artifacts have upon him as being just as potent as Korriban’s nexus. Just a little bit dizzy or sick. To be succinct, the nexus is weak as piss.


Dooku is described as growing immensely throughout the war as well:




Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:Dooku had at his disposal a Sith holocron. This powerful and ancient dark side resource enhanced his own powers and helped to entice other Force users into the Separatist cause.



He grows with the assistance of the knowledge from the holocron across the war. Kreia notes that “"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you”, meaning that only through conflict will the force grow in one tremendously. Dooku is the leader of a war for three years, it’s only natural that he engages in fights and grows throughout. 


Like, I don’t even know why you’d put that argument there other than to please Vader fans. ESB Luke > Dooku? Are you even serious right now? Of course, let’s have the guy with literally less than 2 months of training go up against one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time and a contemporary of (some of) the PT Titans, that’ll go over well.





ISV wrote:Count Dooku is noted to be exhausted by several sources after toying with Obi-wan and Anakin during AOTC:



No, he’s noted to be exhausted after toying with Kenobi and actually engaging Skywalker. Gillard notes, "Of course, he's the chosen one," about Skywalker. "The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion."


Anakin has potential on a scale unheard of anywhere. Of course sometimes that potential is going to manifest (not necessarily the full potential, but he will become far more powerful in a “flash of brilliance”) physically. 


Also to note is that Dooku does get tired, but he is still capable of tangling with Yoda and actually is noted to exhaust Yoda as well.





ISV wrote:Now we know that Anakin Skywalker as of Revenge of the Sith is stronger than Dooku:


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.
Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength-not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing-And only then did Dooku understand that he'd been suckered.



That same strength can exhaust Dooku to the point he is willing to abandon his “honor” or “ego” and call for help:


Skywalker was all over him.
The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.
Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.
He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again.
He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tirelessly ferocious.
That blue blade was everywhere, flashing and whirling faster and faster until Dooku saw the room through an electric haze and now Kenobi was back in the picture: with a shout of the Force, he shot like a torpedo up the stairs behind Skywalker, and Dooku decided that under these rather extreme circumstances, it was at least arguably permissible for a gentleman to cheat.
"Guards!" he said to the pair of super battle droids that still stood at attention to either side of the entrance. "Open fire!"



We know that after his reconstruction Vader considers himself to be physically stronger to Anakin Skywalker: 

Black armorweave and feats of strength weren't the only things that distinguished Darth Vader from Anakin Skywalker. Where Anakin had had limited access to the Jedi Temple data room, Vader–even light-years from Coruscant–could peruse any data he wished, including archival records, ancient texts, and holocrons fashioned by past Masters.
-- Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader


We also know that Vader is physically stronger than he has ever been by Return of the Jedi:

Which means that Vader should be overpowering Dooku more than he did as Anakin on the Invisible hand. Judging by that fight, we can conclude that each of Vader’s strikes are going to force Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder” just as they did on the invisible hand. 



And here you forget a fundamental part of SW lore: Augmentation raises your physical strength, and aug is directly correlated to one’s force power. Anakin’s massive augmentation is what allows him to be this much stronger than Dooku, not anything else. Anakin is more powerful, which is why he’s in turn physically stronger. Vader without augmentation of course, is physically stronger than Anakin with it, but that’s obvious, as a cyborg is naturally going to win an arm-wrestling contest with a human if there’s no outside factors (the force included) interfering. 


Also to note is that Anakin’s power as of this point is above that of Yoda:




Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.





Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"
"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."
...
Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.
I’m more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.





Revenge of the Sith wrote:"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."





Revenge of the Sith wrote:"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"





Revenge of the Sith wrote:"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."





Dooku is able to deflect blows from Anakin in his “Zonakin” state, a state far more powerful than his base state, where he’s > Yoda. Also to note is that Dooku is exhausted, yet he’s capable of deflecting blows from a foe “>” or “>>” Yoda himself. 


https://i.pinimg.com/originals/cf/d1/f7/cfd1f7b9e26461215572cbd30792dabf.gif


Section III - Relativity to Yoda


The most significant piece of information in Dooku’s favor is perhaps his relativity (even parity) to Yoda. 






Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:With a flick of his hand, he picked up the heavyset woman with the Force and hurled her through the window casement. Yoda's eyes went wide with shock. "You might want to help her," Dooku said.
With a bound, Yoda was at the casement. Whirry was windmilling down through the black air, screaming and tumbling toward the flagstones. Narrowing his eyes, Yoda reached out through the Force and caught her not three meters from the ground.
Instantly he was in the air himself, spinning away from Dooku's vicious attack before he was even consciously aware it was coming. The blinding scarlet blur of Dooku's lightsaber split the air, slashing a burning line along Yoda's side before chopping his desk in half. Yoda whipped out his blade while trying to set Whirry gently down on the cobblestones below. "Wish to hurt you, I do not!"
"That's odd," Dooku remarked. "I intend to enjoy killing you."
As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible—wickedness cut in red light. "I've hurt you!" Dooku cried.
"Many times," Yoda said. He considered his pain: let it drop. Now he had nothing but Dooku to focus on, and his lightsaber gleamed with the same fierce green light that flickered from under his heavy-lidded eyes. "But killed me you did not, when you had the chance. A mistake, that was. More than eight hundred years has Yoda survived, through dangers you could not dream."
"I know how to kill," Dooku hissed.
Yoda's eyes opened wide, like balls of green fire. "Yes—but Yoda knows how to live!"
Then their blades clashed together in a lace of fire, green and red: but the green burned hotter. Slowly, slowly, Dooku gave way: and in the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.
"Yes," Dooku whispered. "Feel me. Feel the treason. All those years of teaching me, raising me. Trusting me. And here am I, the favored son, butchering your precious Jedi, one by one. Hate me Yoda. You know you want to."
Count Dooku lashed out with his lightsaber. Yoda took a quick step back and felt the heat of the red blade as it sliced the air centimeters from his tunic.
He jumped, spun, and struck at Dooku's back before he landed. Dooku turned aside at the last moment, whipping his blade across the space where Yoda was seconds earlier. Facing each other again, their blades met, clashed, froze.
"Cunning, are you," Yoda said, breathing hard.
"I've had excellent teachers," Dooku said.
Yoda dropped and rolled to the side, his lightsaber blazing, reaching for Dooku's ankles. Dooku leapt up and flipped backwards landing lightly to face Yoda squarely. On his feet again, Yoda whirled and struck at Dooku, his green blade meeting Dooku's and pushing him back. Dooku attacked with reckless abandon fueled with hatred. Their blades hummed together, hissing and sparking.
Dooku brought his blade down toward the diminutive Jedi Master and Yoda parried, locking his blade against Dooku's. Yoda breathed, calming himself. "And yet, even here on Vjun, where the dark side whispers and whispers to me . . . love you enough to destroy you I do."
Pushing Dooku back yet again, blades flashed and flared stutters of light, blood red and sea green.
Sweat ran in streams through Dooku's beard as he countered Yoda's every move, and his lips were white. Holobattles raged around them as the consoles showed Obi-Wan and Anakin clashing with wave after wave of battle droids. Dooku shot a quick glance at the red button on his desk and, with a Force push, he punched it in.
Yoda cocked his head. "A choice made, have you, Count?"
"I notice I am no longer your apprentice," Dooku said between breaths. "There was always a chance you could overpower me, of course." Yoda attacked: Dooku parried. "So I put a missile in high orbit, slaved to this location. It's falling now. Gathering speed." Dooku stepped warily back to the open window casement. "Can you feel it dropping? A thorn, a needle, an arrow. Faster all the time." He paused to get his breath. "Obi-Wan and your precious Skywalker and your little Padawans will be wiped out when the missile hits. So what you need to decide is, what means more to you, Master Yoda? Saving their lives—or taking mine?"
And with that he leapt backward, out the window. Yoda bounded after him. In the dark Vjun air it was all he could do not to leap after Dooku, to fall on him like a green thunderbolt and annihilate him utterly.
... But already he could feel the missile, too, dropping in a red scream through the atmosphere, two hundred armored kilos of explosive aimed for Chateau Malreaux. With a snort, Yoda turned his eyes to the sky and picked out the glowing dot racing in from the horizon.
Below him, Dooku landed softly on the ground and melted into the rose gardens.




 While Dooku was amped on Vjun, Yoda was likewise, confirmed by both Sean Stewart and in the novel itself, where all the Jedi are amped, therefore making it far more likely that Yoda was:



SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) AI51ESd841p6ifMC103jvUivYIgzdtvsCoc7jarJOx82jRX5TPbAhp_l_vlHuCVm32xVfbOQIvx9A1TRHMfbjB9XOHj6BIoM7LzfmIK0sEH8Ae8k4BzW4-P4LTDohcrj8Iw6sgFN







Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:The difference between Coruscant and here is like the difference between swimming in fresh water and in the ocean. I feel so buoyant.









Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:Anakin hung in the air for an impossibly long time, let himself fall at last into a shoulder roll, two more shots at a droid trying to sneak up behind him, taking off its weapon hand and blowing out a knee, and then he was standing, perfectly balanced, with the blaster pistols steaming in the thin Vjun rain. "I could walk on water," he said. 









Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:In the dark, drunken Vjun air, Yoda was terrible to behold.


Dooku’s able to hold his own with Yoda, who’s arguably amped more so than he is, an indefinite showing of relativity, if not parity. After his dismemberment, “he wasn't as strong as the Emperor [ROTS]”. Yoda is an equal to Sidious, if not slightly better, and Dooku’s showings against him are far, far beyond what Vader has compared to the PT titans. To build on one of my earlier rebuttals, Yoda tells Kenobi that he will “never be powerful enough” to defeat Palpatine. Yet Dooku is almost as powerful as somebody that is equal to the Emperor himself. 


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PHITSmz-n3PyyGIMyLBhOQLu0daTeKATqAsE4VHggkYD4fr8Qci30dwhYxTmNi785SmLRvsU9b5JIDdFseU4Js__ebT_5M-1epeAgofI8EIKNz3cxtRMDQs9j7kC8ApHoEjgLds_


The quote here has Hidalgo speaking on Lucas’ behalf, rendering it G-Canon. As it came out before ROTS, it’s worth noting that it likely refers to him during AOTC. Here he notes specifically that “the skill and power” Anakin shows at the time is > what he shows as Vader. He is more powerful, and more skilled (not necessarily technical skill, but in aug at least he’s >, rendering overall skill better) than he is during ROTJ. Vader’s powers are “drastically decreased” after his injuries, so even if you want to say that he’s > AOTC Anakin, that doesn’t change the fact that Dooku was able to stomp him bar the flash of brilliance. 




Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.


In comparison to Yoda, Luke is “not that powerful”. As Luke and Vader are equals in the force, and with a lightsaber per a plethora of sources, it’s safe to say that Vader himself is “not that powerful” compared to Yoda. Dooku, on the other hand, is near Yoda in power and skill with a saber. I think it’s safe to say that Dooku is superior. 

Section IV - The (Dis)advantages of Being a Cyborg

Vader’s uniquely bad at repelling lightning:



Star Wars: Ultimate Blueprints wrote:Despite the benefits of such attributes, Vader’s artificial limbs render him unable to conjure or repel Sith lightning,




Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:Unfortunately, because of his artificial arms, he was unable to conjure Sith Lightning or be invulnerable to it



Dooku is able to use Sith Lightning, and is surprisingly proficient in it, to a point where he’s able to take out powerful beings like Ventress with it:




The Official Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:When she claimed to be Sith, Dooku laughed in her face before shocking her into unconsciousness with Force Lightning. Later, when she had recovered, Ventress launched an attack on Dooku. The Count easily defeated the woman and destroyed her lightsabers.




This gives Dooku a massive advantage, as Vader’s inability to counter an important part of Dooku’s skillset leaves him extremely vulnerable to any lightning attacks that Dooku uses, especially since Dooku is capable of defeating foes such as Ventress with lightning. 


Conclusion

I think that I’ve sufficiently established why Dooku wins this fight, but to reiterate:



  • Dooku is relativistic to Yoda, somebody far, far above Vader.
  • Dooku >> ROTS Kenobi >> Ben > ANH Vader 
  • Vader is arguably with his AOTC iteration in power and saber skill, both of which are far outstripped by Dooku. 
  • Your argument that ESB Luke > Dooku makes no sense when we look at the fact that Dooku is able to easily throw around carriers while scarcely amped, something offset by his growth over the Clone Wars, whereas Luke finds the task of moving an X-Wing impossible.
  • Vader’s unique weakness to lightning leaves him extremely vulnerable to Dooku’s attacks.



@ISV

@BoD @Jacen @Syndiciate
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 19th 2020, 5:29 pm
MasterCilghal
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 21st 2020, 1:28 pm
Please refrain from giving your opinions on the arguments themselves, this is a debate between IG and ISV.
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 21st 2020, 3:22 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Please refrain from giving your opinions on the arguments themselves, this is a debate between IG and ISV.

Thanks, cleans up the thread, but I'm gonna clog it again with a question. You said you wanted to see me debate, before I counter I want to know have I been satisfactory so far?
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 21st 2020, 3:25 pm
Isv wrote:You said you wanted to see me debate, before I counter I want to know have I been satisfactory so far?

I’ll tell you once the debate is over.
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 21st 2020, 3:43 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:
Isv wrote:You said you wanted to see me debate, before I counter I want to know have I been satisfactory so far?

I’ll tell you once the debate is over.

Alright well I won't stop you from doing your job, feel free to delete this litter convo we had as to not clog the thread  SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 228124001
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 26th 2020, 9:52 am
Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 26th 2020, 9:55 am
Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see
THanks
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 27th 2020, 3:36 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see

Thanks Cheth. Stay tuned, rebuttal is going to be coming either today or tomorrow hopefully today if I can get my laptop working  SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 2257779481
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 27th 2020, 5:57 pm
Isv wrote:
Cheth wrote:Great posts from both of you, good pro-Vader arguments are always great to see

Thanks Cheth. Stay tuned, rebuttal is going to be coming either today or tomorrow hopefully today if I can get my laptop working  SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 2257779481
Both debating against IG. Both debating against Dooku. Both have non-functional computers SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 1668617588

Anyways I'll be sure to check for your reply. Or more simply: TAEP
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 27th 2020, 7:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
[size=35]SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Fbxj9_eeiktPI6Kht444KQtkd7l4o291wxqCmMxrz9nJEsjRoRn1_IFYZdibo08GRRVO9jJaJY5kDVuQq0Mz1zcUJ_JW3SnpFbjAEmO8-gvKMkGpcRMS3ymF-oCldEkTuFYcDxKu [/size]


Class is in session:



Section I - Vader Lowballing: Fallacy Flinging:


@IG wrote:
Why is Vader’s growth from when he literally just gets in his suit to a few months later going to be indicative of linear growth throughout? Vader just got into a metal suit that restricts his every movement, of course he isn’t going to be comfortable in it. It’s like saying that somebody became thinner because the first time they put something on, it felt really tight, but after a while, it was comfortable.


That is a textbook definition of a faulty comparison. My point was that Vader overcame severe obstacles that hindered him the point he could barely walk in the span of a few months. He improved to the point where he went from having trouble with a single Jedi Master and getting tagged, to stomping multiple knights and matching even with a Jedi Master who could have been on the council but refused (Roan Shryne.) 

@IG wrote: Vader’s boost post-Shryne isn’t a normal power increase either, as he states in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader:


Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:
“I owe you a debt," he told Vader. "It took you to bring me back to the Force."


 "And you to firm my faith in the power of the dark side, Master Shryne.”

The quote here takes place after Vader has Shryne at his mercy which doesn’t affect the aforementioned improvements he made to speed, skill, and mastery. I never implied Vader’s boost was a part of his consistent growth. I merely cited the fact that he got one, though I understand your confusion, I should have been more clear.

@IG wrote:
After fighting Kenobi on Mustafar, Vader doesn’t even have that much faith in the Dark Side’s power, there’s no doubt that once his faith in its power has returned, he’ll improve a lot more. Another thing to note is that Vader’s power growth should begin to lessen and lessen as he ages; we expect a youngling or padawan to grow at a far greater pace than a master. He lacks his youthful energy when he’s in his 40s, he’s in his early 20s as of 19 BBY, so his growth is naturally better.

First of all your argument hinges on the idea that Vader’s growth was predicated around that single boost he receives at the end of the novel. I showed sufficient evidence that he goes from being barely able to walk around to being faster and more nimble than before and I cited his boost at the end to lead into another point where sidious says:

  Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin 

The entire point of this part of the post was to explain that Vader overcame severe handicaps and grew considerably in all his abilities, going from being a walking pile of burnt garbage to someone whose “true apprenticeship could begin” by the end. All of those points lend to the idea he could grow at a rapid rate in the future. The post in itself referenced his boost yes, but it was designed to show you what kind of improvements the hindered version of the Dark Lord can make, now imagine what a “true apprentice” can accomplish in twenty years. As for the Padawan point, you provided no evidence for it so I don’t feel the need to respond. Until you cite Dark Times Vader growing more than he did the rest of his life, the point is moot.

@IG wrote:Yet Vader’s so called “massive” growth isn’t necessarily linear. There’s nothing that substantiates the notion. Anakin’s growth from TPM to AOTC is utterly nothing compared to his AOTC to ROTS growth. Likewise Obi-Wan’s growth from TPM to AOTC is minimal in contrast to his growth from AOTC to ROTS. Also to note is that if Vader grows a ragdoll gap each year, that’s around 23 ragdoll gaps he grows before his death. Given that the gap between Maul and SIdious as of TCW isn’t that large, it’s impossible to say that Vader grows 23 times a lot more than that one gap. It makes no sense whatsoever without rendering Vader far more powerful than perhaps even Prime Luke, ROTJ Sidious, etc. It’s like… He can’t utterly oneshot SK in TFU 2, despite the so called “ragdoll gaps” he jumps in between games. As of ANH, he struggles with Ben. Even if somehow Ben is with his ROTS iteration as you claim, then how has Vader fallen 19 ragdoll gaps after his dismemberment? Are you claiming Roan Shryne is 19 ragdoll gaps beneath Ben? Like the sheer absurdity of that claim astounds me. 19 ragdoll gaps, as I’ve said already, are 19 gaps that are larger than the gaps between Maul and Sidious. Like is it feasible to claim that 19 ragdoll gaps exist between Ben and 19 BBY Vader? Between Ben and Celeste Morne? The implications here are astounding; ESB Luke is somehow what, 10 ragdoll gaps above Shryne? 20? What you’re claiming makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. 

So, to start with you cite the examples of Anakin and Kenobi growing at different rates. It’s really telling to me that you are using the literal Chosen One and Kenobi as your example for inconsistencies in growth. As for your point about the ragdoll gap argument it is a classic case of the argument of incredulity. You have provided no evidence or arguments to the contrary other than saying my thought process is “insane” and so the point still stands.


@IG wrote:While there may be evidence stating that Vader is > Kenobi, there’s far more compelling evidence to the contrary, from sources such as Leland Chee and George Lucas himself:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) EdcoLDRRCX_3Tjai5H_f_LpuHm5RGJps-inp1KeZkF7A9AOk3xDgZEpscQfBWP9Lz1_f3jnJMKSZ9VAiiz8heovgYsUdBc4FF6Q1VPxHGifZzMiUl1yBiZlAL8SJMCA3VvWUL2h0

@IG wrote:Here we see Chee saying that Kenobi > Vader. There aren’t mental gymnastics required to clarify this, he outright states “Obi-Wan is stronger than Vader in EP4”. Likewise, DK books clarify that Kenobi intentionally threw the fight, something Chee hints at when he says that Obi-Wan ‘lost’ to Vader in quotation marks. 

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) TrXxFhwZ8c9F7OqpDLUUTY-UpRA5p0z_hLkwSbzb8aaCS1QRQjTDRwRQTkmMgRiVbQ8Euk7BWJMtt47BrhJqkZnf3z-Xl52rcogReOss7wPrMy702RSu1PUBeNIUYljyAFRGPhhd

Okay forgive me I have not seen this source before, the date on the tweet says 2019. It would be reasonable to assume this is Chee referring to Canon Vader no? As for the surrender point, all sources including the film make it clear Ben gave up. Redundant evidence is redundant, next?

@IG wrote:
According to Lucas, Obi-Wan is a “6”, Vader is a “4”, and ESB Luke is a “2”. A common rebuttal to this is the “Vader is 80% of Sidious” quote, something that makes no sense whatsoever. All scales don’t have similar increases--they aren’t proportional. Obi-Wan being a 6 comparative to Vader’s 4 doesn’t mean he’s 1.5x more powerful, it means he’s more powerful, but by an indeterminate amount. 

Okay so you decided to use the 6,4,2 argument lovely. Let’s take a look at the quote:

The idea of Vader using telekinetic powers during his fight with Luke was created during story meetings. There was concern, however, that the audience might think back to the first film and wonder why Vader didn't use all his powers on Ben; but this was easily explained by the fact that Ben was probably stronger than Vader. George Lucas and Leigh Brackett also discussed the different levels of the Force; maybe Ben was a six, Vader was a four, Luke is now at level two.
--Star Wars: The Annotated Screenplays

So, the determining factors for it not really holding authority are threefold:

1: This is a storyboard pitch meeting, where the executives come together to iron out power levels, so the “easy explanation” as that quote says is that Vader is less powerful than Ben, this is ambiguous however because of it’s terminology, which leads to my next point…

2: The words “probably” and “maybe” denote uncertainty in the “easy explanation” devised in the meetings. If Ben is “probably” stronger than Vader, that’s wonderful. It means there is a chance to assume as much, but it doesn’t mean it can be used as a concrete basis for scaling Ben off Vader.

3: The meetings took place back during the production of Empire Strikes Back as such they cannot be used as determining factors of the power levels of the characters now as opinions change overtime. For instance, Vader legitimately wins the duel as of 1977 in the Star Wars novelisation, yet we know from this screenplay that the writers think Ben is a 6 and Vader is a 4 around the 80s, so the veracity of such an old source can be called into question.

@IG wrote:
To begin, Vader’s quote in ESB explains itself, Luke’s mobility makes him somebody that Vader enjoys fighting more than Obi-Wan; sport is defined as, “an activity involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment”. Meaning that Vader finds Luke a more entertaining fight than he found Kenobi. 

Okay, so I’m not sure how you got that out of the quote, I can post again:

“You have been learning, you’re young and quick, you offer me better sport than the old man.”

The argument can be made that this refers to speed since he cites Luke’s youth and speed as the reason he considers him “better sport” but overall speed kills in a lightsaber duel. To say that Luke is as technically masterful as Ben would be a stretch, but his “unparalleled learning in battle” and mimicry of Vader’s own hybridized form after minimal training lends itself to his raw threat level. So, my case still stands strong as ever in fact. Since you indicate that Luke is indeed faster and more mobile, the speed comparisons with Kenobi still work and if Dooku can’t produce a greater speed than the one I already cited, doesn’t that give Vader an advantage? 

Furthermore your source is Google and even in the quote you gave, it mentions “physical exertion and skill” being a part of sport’s definition.

Here is an alternative interpretation from the Cambridge dictionary:

a game , competition , or similar activity , done for enjoyment or as a job , that takes physical effort and skill and is played or done by following particular rules

I don’t see how you attempt to invalidate the statement by citing the definition of sport. In this case (as seen in Shadows of the Empire as well) wouldn’t Vader’s enjoyment of fighting luke be based on how much a challenge is presented? Wouldn’t that indicate he poses a higher threat than “the old man?” If anything your definition of sport helps my case, since it implies that in this “athletic activity” Luke has greater “physical effort” and “skill.”

@IG wrote:
As for your Shadows of the Empire statements, they make no sense. Luke being the strongest of all Jedi means he’s stronger than Yoda ever was, and Vader (as Anakin) knew Yoda, and how powerful he was. He also knew that Yoda was strong enough to face Sidious in a head-on duel. Yet Lucas remarks that Vader is “no longer as strong as the Emperor [during ROTS]” after Kenobi disembowels him. Of course you could assume that it means that Luke is only > Ben (as you are), but the fact that the statement encompasses all Jedi, evidenced by “the other Jedi were all extinct” means that Vader is referring to all of the Jedi that ever lived, or at least those that he has met. 



Vader also believes he can hunt Yoda down and kill him at the time of A New Hope:


Most of the Jedi had been destroyed. Some of the few who mattered the most, however, had not. Some had escaped, among them Yoda. This was disturbing. Old as the green little imp with the querulous voice was, he could still be a threat. - But be all that as it might, there was no Yoda, no Mace Windu leading this insurgency . . . no one who shone so brightly in the Force that Vader could not miss him. Whatever few Jedi might be left in the galaxy had nothing to do with this latest attack. -
...
Vader knew all about midi-Chlorians, of course-he personally had the highest count per cell ever recorded, more than twenty thousand. More than Yoda, and, he knew, more than his erstwhile Master, Kenobi. Which meant that, potentially, he could have a stronger connection to the Force than anyone. Since most, if not all, of the Jedi were no more, that was all the sweeter, though Vader was convinced that Obi-Wan had remained hidden all these years, as had Yoda, assuming the latter had not finally shuffled off into death. Yoda had been very old, after all, and the defeat and deaths of the Jedi could not have helped him age any easier. He could be dead. But it was unwise to make such assumptions about such a powerful Jedi Master.

"More important, though, was the knowledge that Vader's nemesis still lived. He would have felt it through the Force if the old man had died, of that he was certain. And this was a good thing, a very good thing indeed. Because someday, somehow, Obi-Wan Kenobi would pay for what he had done to Anakin Skywalker, and it would be Darth Vader who collected the toll. He would strike down Kenobi as he had so many of his fellow Jedi, be they Masters, Knights, or Padawans. Eventually the inevitable would become reality, and the Jedi would be no more."

So, perhaps Vader’s opinion on Yoda is irrelevant. Even if it wasn’t there is still that last bit of the quote you have to counter:
 
Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.

If Vader considers it the “duel of a lifetime” and specifically compares that to how easy things are for him now, he is basically saying that Luke will pose a greater challenge to him than anyone before. 

Another thing is that you didn’t address my other quote so I assume you concede? I’ll provide an explanation:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) FeBlDAczt7ABzSVcyhtGrSWu-M4Y_UYkFFux_8RMdHfKqSKRY6IpWX8CSC6rdnKuJKGlGPP0-MFJbzlAxHzqVUJJIQX5bSrmhcb9oGz6peGTEQmbx5de4M9n58FY3R0qetd6T6bs

The quote says “At last” referencing all opponents before, that Vader in his ESB iteration found an opponent worthy of him. The quote specifically notes that it is Luke’s “swift” lightsaber skill and “power” in the force that make him worthy. 

Points all still stand.


Section II - Why Is This A Debate?


Let’s take this one bit at a time…

@IG wrote:Dooku’s surprise at Kenobi rapidly changing his style from Shii-Cho and Ataro (two forms that he is explicitly familiar with, Shii-Cho being a basic form taught to younglings and Ataro being the preferred form of Dooku’s own apprentice--and Kenobi’s master) is not at all indicative of a fight on even grounds between the pair. In fact, once Dooku becomes remotely aware of what Kenobi’s doing, he (while extremely exhausted nonetheless) is capable of using “the slightest whipcrack” of power to throw Kenobi back (and even if Kenobi does have his wall down, it’s rather embarrassing that “the master” of Soresu, the foremost defensive style is caught with his pants down--unless Dooku is able to move so quickly that Kenobi is completely unable to put his wall back up) with a “negligent flick” of his wrist.  

Extremely exhausted you say? From my recollection he “summoned power from throughout the universe” and then used a “whipcrack” of that power to incapacitate an unexpecting Kenobi. As for “the master of soresu getting embarrassed by Dooku” This is highlighted in the JN once again:


He can’t fight in two directions at once, Obi-Wan thought as he came up behind the Count. If we can —

Kenobi thinks Dooku is preoccupied with Anakin, so he is basically thinking: “all right, i’ll rush this guy while his back is turned.” The problem is that Dooku is aware of Kenobi and exploits that tactical blunder and by the time Kenobi can muster his defenses the choke has weakened him to the point he cannot fight back. Now yes, Dooku moves fast enough to catch Kenobi off guard but bursts of speed in equals are not uncommon. All you are proving is that Dooku is relevant to Kenobi, to which I agree, but speed also doesn’t denote anything in this instance, since it’s Kenobi’s tactical failing not his skill that ends up getting him incapacitated.

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Lv_Y4CNuhDc6fCowa0dVpi43WvF02lMAzwg1YEJnxaqjoM68tRODZkr8IlFqZNhe6UeL1W1ut_UhSh5OupmFYGpdYlkk8xT6sCwjHEYgLEeZVS0f0B2mbwXXIsLQez18ihkLRh_f

@IG wrote:Obi Wan is described as being “almost impossible” to take by surprise, meaning that as you’ve indicated, Dooku is able to attack so quickly, so “sudden[ly]”, as your junior novelization puts it, that Kenobi is caught off-guard is a clear depiction of a massive disparity between the pair. Dooku is able to fight Anakin-effing-Skywalker and Obi-Wan at the same time, yet is able to knock Skywalker aside and then easily toss Kenobi away is demonstrative of disparity. While Dooku is not shown to be able to easily tear through Kenobi’s barrier, he’s shown the ability to attack Kenobi and augment himself to a sufficient degree that Kenobi is incapable of countering him, even after the latter has realized what’s going on. 

Now I am truly lost. I give you evidence that Kenobi was distracted at the time and didn’t throw his barrier up as supported by the Junior Novel which reads: He reached for the Force to counter Dooku, but the attack had been too sudden. This is not an arguable point, whether Kenobi’s reactions are “almost impossible” to take by surprise means nothing. That word almost in your quote, that refers to a margin of time where he can be taken by surprise, and that is what happened by all accounts that I have shown...


@IG wrote:
@IG wrote:Barriers are extremely easy to throw up--shown by Kas’im:





Path of Destruction wrote:
"I agree," Bane replied, hurling out the wave of Force energy he had been gathering during the Blademaster's speech.

There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.



@IG wrote:


At “the last possible instant”, he’s able to protect himself from a massive TK blast of Bane’s, something that Kenobi is incapable of doing, by no fault of his own, it’s just that Dooku is so quick that he can augment himself faster than Kenobi (also augmenting himself, as this is a combat situation) cannot react. 

So, you are saying that speed is the defining factor here, and force augmentation somehow correlates to a massive gap between the two? A quick burst of speed on an unexpecting Kenobi proves nothing. If you want to cite reactionary times for unsuspecting opponents as a determining factor let me point you to Cade Skywalker and Darth Krayt:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) NwGDZJnHvCdbkkn9ESlixIs9O8EnfooMhOOlyZKXANI6pVAsl3p-52J0CPN7w9NqmQBFaBlnEr7n6Ee3lfIKSsKzyTdf8cgS62G8m6ydQdGsa314czU56-9mrOPw_0dVAu6qIPkv

Here we see Cade Skywalker having the “skill and speed” as you would say, to blitz unsuspecting Darth Krayt. Now by your logic this denotes a massive gap between the two, after all Krayt has precognition and Force Barriers and powers are “easy to throw up” so Cade must be above Krayt right…

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PuzSohMbZPAGzCJIc8RfHM7v2eFSipLf6F2csmdGGjAA_lFxeDJB-lV_neFifLg9tjwsKFe4mRThO3e3oL9otztokP5AyeBreO7S52zLdWYYltzUv7MtS5DAl1uwGsOJH1TSh_Ny
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PaOwKPnR65sMStK67XlNak17cZQ9rxJX418y5nc-SRrb9OmezPvhNehablsZl7up1oszyYKmgr2Q0Hz5EAGFl-2fZra4WeWWYd07Ce8pYZWoD1WDbEob_tTZ2xyjEwayOynajE8W

Krayt absolutely lays waste to Cade. Even if you cite the idea that Cade was fighting with Cade off panel, that doesn’t change the fact that the dominating character here is clearly Krayt, he tosses Cade with what looks like: “a negligent flick of his wrist”, sound familiar? I mean obviously that “speed and skill” that he uses to dispatch Cade which denotes a large ragdoll gap between the two right?

I’m sure you won’t agree that Cade is above Krayt and you can try to argue they are relative but that only leads back into the point I made to begin with. All I argued with Kenobi and Dooku is that they were in each others vicinity and not ragdoll fodder. In summary: 

1: Dooku could not break Kenobi’s guard and it was too “bewilderingly fast” for him to “dare strike” meaning they are relative.

2: Dooku could not break Kenobi’s defenses on a whim and needed a defensive lapse as supported by the junior novelization.

3: Speed does not denote any form of parity if the opponent was caught off-guard.

Points still stand.


@IG wrote:Now on-towards MFK. It makes no sense to assume that Anakin is anything but hindered on Mustafar. Gillard notes that Anakin hasn’t “mastered the mental side of fighting” yet, and it is also noted that Anakin is “consumed by his rage” on Mustafar. Kenobi’s “equality” to him is lackluster, as it’s explicitly noted to be because of their mutual experience with one another. While obviously the connection goes two ways, it’s important to note that the connection should help Kenobi more, as he’s a defensive fighter. In the Revenge of the Sith novel, it’s noted that with every exchange, Kenobi “gave ground”, and that it, “was his way”. 

According to Gillard he is “still a nine” and that's “still something you have to deal with” even in this state. Also the quote that says he “hasn’t mastered the mental side of fighting” also compliments his talent:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) YbRhseiAXz9RBNMuj_eTuVvDRUXHG3mTtCBWJdnmBXmgpVw5DmGyQ2LeO59bGoKDAzz_E2wfBwkal6b1SVRBo6oDDZb3Luwu_-GkU0WE0RapvnPEKqQnpa9pu29Jd5SVS802SgnM
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) BCPCmLTZum6qF8bxoRLsMYkeHud5-NiAmhTls5LobbN2cbDbLW2by9AKvBbFHRCVQEfGeSw3uCApUZ1AhkSLMrYAgEw5yi6GiQHtZa0pmJJMdvLgpO2TZlo3uf0xOSU2nFb2HfMz
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) AknHtNum9kEYnSz6lIKFt_uMITDm5q6nuqr5M8kTu4bsRT3dIv3FO8KPZKtZTpw_gR8w0L24S_AVw0MZvBD73Pc0ZbIqJ3tDvgYo_PNBpN58_QgUeLrP18s61Cv25JadT6UIkzEG

So sure, Anakin doesn’t have the clarity of mind at this point that Kenobi does, but any huge benefits to rationality are overridden when he’s just taken “Force LSD” and “jumped to a level nine.” What the quote is saying is that Anakin is being an idiot and isn’t good at decision making or as highlighted in the last two quotes above when Kenobi exploits this weakness on the ridge at mustafar. This does not mean he is any slower or less skilled than he was previously. 

Furthermore their parity is noted by Kenobi being able to “deflect his force blasts”:

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.




Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

The argument can even be made that most of the fight Kenobi is “holding back” somewhat, it is only when he “let go” that he can defeat Anakin:

But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization


Which is supported by The Ultimate Visual Guide:
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Mi4ubG0HGpoI0gDQgdskN95eu-NKMNe0obTx-Nh_9O-xkUmSpopyss0vETzeyk44a5yZgdsv-6CPuN35LdnnXfOZ7AaYkqDAmZzJd4FiLYuBERtLbQNXj6tKgne3GJKqf7IStOFD

So no Kenobi fought Skywalker as an equal and possibly even became his superior at the end, that is the most supported interpretation.

Point stands.

@IG wrote:
Kenobi declining over his stay on Tatooine is explicitly noted by the fact that he is a “shadow of his former self”. Vader tells Kenobi “Your powers are weak, old man”, explicitly noting the fact that Kenobi is weaker than he once was, and that he’s now an old man, with far inferior stamina. Light-siders tend to decline around the middle age, Qui-Gon did so, Obi-Wan is seemingly doing so (I think he does at least, given the wealth of evidence that supports the notion).

I am assuming you are using Fightsaber for this point? Let’s take a look at the quote then:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) W-XLsy5oPlIJ8SJrP1hWHB61D9POPu_xFmhR1nVisvC2NJw5w3z638gS3czUO3JvK8aTFBPBOf-emlJLH3aksz1E8uzJ-dj9lBRS-y2OrjN9GCCGSFEHjAMaHbSgIS3WvdMUrwdX

The quote states the two are shadows of their former selves, then it immediately says “neither has fought another lightsaber-wielder for many years.” Which leads us towards the idea the quote is referencing dueling abilities, not power in the force. It would also be completely arbitrary to include something about force abilities in an article discussing respective styles of combat during A New Hope. Of course Vader’s skills being a shadow of his former self doesn’t really hurt my argument, since that exact same source states Vader grows “far more formidable” during the 3 year interrim between A New Hope and Empire Strikes Back. That idea is affirmed by Luke being Vader’s greatest challenger, and specifically cited as Ben’s superior.

As for your Kenobi and Jinn points; Your personal thoughts and theories do not avail you here, provide evidence or my point still stands.

@IG wrote:
You conclude here that Luke >> ANH Vader by his “superiority” to Ben. Yet this makes no sense. As of ESB, Luke deems the very idea of moving even an X-Wing out of a swamp “impossible”. Let alone by himself, he believes nobody can do it, including Yoda, and even Vader. 

No. Luke’s power in this case is based around the idea that he does not believe he can lift the X-wing:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 5cFCJcaHtUBCTWEtmou3If-_L8q0N4ASO602jdSBcTF9EbscZPBYJQKaa9ywI1-T3KF57Y_KBzdjlNuMVM7ozXmqXX7LA9qJBefDo28eSJ1TKMRCplAUL4R0M2A8ku_sK7FBw4Ys
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Lp47hxpsQKsEKiLTrWCkuUgqIoiRxUhnsE4rtZYzbFYN2Lto7VR7Eff7QPXy-Fy4zpu8feNIByU-7UOLDjC9eUENLf72J7pX0roWVXS7DtT-EW51nsHFvA-_CvR1mfK6Q3688PZd

This mindset isn’t the same when he faces Vader. On Bespin he thinks he can beat Vader,  this is evident in the film with the line “you’ll find i’m full of surprises” and in other sources saying “Luke was far too hasty” or “luke thought he he was ready to face Vader, he couldn’t have been more wrong.” So during this duel he would be more confident in his abilities and thus he is able to access more power.

@IG wrote:
Yet we see Dooku casually throwing around massive ships, including a carrier with ease:


Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:
They moved farther into the darkness.
"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."
"This time I'll be prepared."
"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."
They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.
Like phantoms..
Phantoms that move...
Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.
Then he knew.
"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.
"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.
Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.
He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.
The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.
"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."






Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:
He paused by the wreckage of the vehicles that the mysterious Sith had moved so easily.



While one might argue that Dooku is amped by the nexus of Korriban, and therefore this feat is non-applicable to Dooku’s base state, there is evidence to the contrary. 





Star Wars: The Last of the Jedi: Against the Empire wrote:
He had felt like this on Korriban. When along with the Padawans and their Masters they had gone into the great valley of the Sith, into their very tombs. That radiating energy had caused them to feel dizzy and sick. He paused. He must be near Sith artifacts. Maybe a Holocron. That would explain it. Well, he had conquered the feeling then, as a boy of sixteen. He could do it again. He just had to keep going-Then the voices began.




Here, Ferus Olin likens the sensations that Sith Holocrons or Artifacts have upon him as being just as potent as Korriban’s nexus. Just a little bit dizzy or sick. To be succinct, the nexus is weak as piss.

Okay, well no. The passage you cite for the nexus being “weak as piss” is from Ferus Olin’s journey into the EmpalSuRecon during Book 9 of the Last of the Jedi series. The EmpalSuRecon contains the following:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) DYbdXZNSsQWi1LxdRnZBZ8sCaaXOgnbuVAe1cALjfhv3l6mqBS2qq9fkC2z_t5QeYHJj-S8JM0keeIl_ndizKajvjbBue3Ix9m9jqvEf5H6LY2d0yQ-VTwQyAs_fT2tN-ivKMFKe
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) OwsdJT9TBBccw-ahCieZk1wAyXQLLUpGQbCYSLHBd2o6DpQOfGbBulAse8wNUZP8NTgBxNJpAHt2hxnJwr1zabSFG_t7TiG7VO7fwwd4hPZKoplasnrKp2zz038crHUNzUyIm-dl
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) HR3c6nQzSCqqd1-w6hJOHzIf5nfe8qCO5PUsZ02OFsnDsIgJFQ7-qS4l0jfQYA6WFeBUgqeuLw_PlpJ95Boe7-Uepauvj-g18kxEh5H8Al4cwxeryHVI-wOzNzglcibPJjcBUtOc
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Mf9kkcOdOAW54cBj6KUQSfvvoB1ljCRwZsIvMVY_j1O3jPc6KkwkCfvcQpvFIlqpWOPXE0Etl_rjJ0TjkOrm3gzpsDZiK68bqKKnUPlXtTinOGWipbLHAZg96regSnEenXuWdAIG

So, a giant sith crystal used in Sithisis to conduct galactic scale rituals by Darth Sidious himself, a reservoir of Darkside crystals and gadgetry that will “help Lord Vader recover”, sith weapons stored around the gallery, and the final piece an enormous Holocron recovered from Korriban itself.

It should not be hard to see why this massive complex would remind Ferus of Korriban. So yes Dooku is amped and there is no reason to assume he outgrew this nexus.

@IG wrote:Like, I don’t even know why you’d put that argument there other than to please Vader fans. ESB Luke > Dooku? Are you even serious right now? Of course, let’s have the guy with literally less than 2 months of training go up against one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time and a contemporary of (some of) the PT Titans, that’ll go over well.

Once again the argument of incredulity rears it ugly head. Just because you my argument doesn’t fit with your own perception of Luke does not render it false. I have provided evidence for my claims, you have simply chastised mine and presented weak or out of context evidence in response.

Also Luke the prodigy with an insane growth rate did not train for “literally two months”:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) IwkGbvOeViepNhugBVy9fZu3k_Qbp-bpUvIT_ZOVeAZSFGhMVvZwHS-Jg454f6ZrBAAu2GsQHgKIHnBdZR8AtP8TYNuZXoQaV5TAvLI_N-bcKSVg_m4T8AP5ql3qVsEs3yMIUxA4


According to Lucasfilm’s own Pablo Hidalgo, it was about seven standard months.

@IG wrote:No, he’s noted to be exhausted after toying with Kenobi and actually engaging Skywalker. Gillard notes, "Of course, he's the chosen one," about Skywalker. "The audience will want to see that manifest itself. There needs to be flashes of brilliance. He's more skilled than Obi-Wan. Anakin always attacks. He's better and he knows it, which means he's brash on occasion."



Anakin has potential on a scale unheard of anywhere. Of course sometimes that potential is going to manifest (not necessarily the full potential, but he will become far more powerful in a “flash of brilliance”) physically. 

Sure, Anakin has flashes of brilliance, but Dooku’s skills aren’t even really put to the test until he duels Yoda:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) W0lSItoK0pl_a3fv-TGYazm_OGrlW2AuezCFkFx5Ctnsz_i7aPadfa-mMfjXd2ok7QYVodsoLnvVBXO_8KW5FKVlkCLxFLwnxOHT1S2KDui3Ns7Yu_CFI7Uxj4Mldjk2jCaKYw_x


Meaning that he capitulated in some fashion hence the word “toying” that I used. He still got tired.


@IG wrote:Also to note is that Dooku does get tired, but he is still capable of tangling with Yoda and actually is noted to exhaust Yoda as well.


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) VFYiNBYxLPz9oN9Y5_2Xd8mpfwCm-R04R5GvarJF02ZMsJNqAazRYy1XBv-yT272foSOJYAZtRAYnR6hCXVfJFY9BUsBs-Otxqeg9VdC5acKOSU1sFrpv1aL2Ifl9Bs9fKc0DLQP

You didn’t provide evidence for it though. I am going to need to see proof Dooku can exhaust AOTC Yoda, not sure how that is relevant to my arguments though.


@IG wrote:And here you forget a fundamental part of SW lore: Augmentation raises your physical strength, and aug is directly correlated to one’s force power. Anakin’s massive augmentation is what allows him to be this much stronger than Dooku, not anything else. Anakin is more powerful, which is why he’s in turn physically stronger. Vader without augmentation of course, is physically stronger than Anakin with it, but that’s obvious, as a cyborg is naturally going to win an arm-wrestling contest with a human if there’s no outside factors (the force included) interfering. 

I didn’t forget anything. Augmentation isn’t factored into the quote, Vader’s “feats” of strength are what were referenced in Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader it’s not Vader saying his cyborg limbs are stronger than his flesh and blood, but rather the “feats of strength” he can accomplish “distinguish him from Anakin” which is specifically likened to how Anakin once had limited access to the Temple archives but now has all of that data to view at his fingertips from anywhere in the galaxy. So even if Anakin was vastly superior to Vader in the force which would make him logically stronger than Vader, that isn’t what the quote is referencing. It’s also not hard to believe that Vader’s cybernetics and augmentations with the force could supersede Anakin’s own strength when you consider what enhancements he received:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) PoKZCvpkpB14_LL0LS4qAt7RPNyF4cDUf0Q271QbYYKxjWvC0ffsd7RhSj3BNAwQAZJOCaJYvP4znX7xPMMSRLbkAvQp5hLC2p72W0GR0LslNmfpCXi2ef3eLqrDdj_q_jGNYbuQ

The quote says that Vader has an enhanced version of Grievous's own cybernetics and we know the quote doesn’t mean speed or life support systems since those two things are very different for Grievous and Vader respectively. For reference to Grievous:

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.
-Labyrinth of Evil

Who has Mace Windu fought before this point? Ah yes, Dooku himself.

If Vader was say half of Anakin in power at this point, even something as low as 20 percent, it’s easy to see why his augmented cybernetics would be beyond Anakin’s base strength if he is already packing Grievous's without augmentation.

Also the Return of the Jedi: comic I used in the opener wasn’t countered, so I assume you conceded that point?


@IG wrote:Also to note is that Anakin’s power as of this point is above that of Yoda:


No.

IG's quote wrote:Labyrinth of Evil wrote:
Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council.

This doesn’t say “above” Yoda at all, it merely says as strong as Yoda at best.


IG's quote wrote:Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:
"What? How can you do this? This is outrageous! It’s unfair! I’m more powerful than any of you. How can you be on the Council and not be a Master?"
"Take a seat, young Skywalker . . ."
...
Everything in his life had led to this point because Anakin Skywalker’s destiny had been subverted and warped by well-meaning but blind Masters, sending him off on a tangent to do a flawed Palpatine’s bidding instead of realizing his own full power.
I’m more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy’s expression of anger, but it was true.

A stretch to say the least. Caedus didn’t even know Anakin, he would be going off records and what little Luke could tell him, not a very reliable source.

IG's quote wrote:Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"He is powerful. Potentially more powerful than even myself."

Potential does not correlate to actualized power, Luke has the potential to be what Anakin could have been per Lucas, yet i’m sure you would disagree he was equal to Anakin as of Return of the Jedi.

IG's quote wrote:
Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"An embarrassment you can survive, Lord Tyranus. After all, he is the greatest Jedi alive, is he not?"

Palpatine’s opinion, who is trying to cater to Dooku’s ego, but it’s the best source you have presented so far.

IG's quote wrote:Revenge of the Sith wrote:
"Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

“Arguably” means it’s debatable, it doesn’t take a stance on Anakin at all, just says he might be the most powerful Jedi.


@IG wrote:Dooku is able to deflect blows from Anakin in his “Zonakin” state, a state far more powerful than his base state, where he’s > Yoda. Also to note is that Dooku is exhausted, yet he’s capable of deflecting blows from a foe “>” or “>>” Yoda himself. 


The novelisation describes this as a complete stomp and you haven’t cited a reason why Anakin would be > Yoda to begin with. According to Gillard Anakin starts Revenge of the Sith as an 8, he can’t be more powerful than Yoda if he’s literally a tier below him.

Gillard isn’t the only thing that supports Yoda being more powerful though:

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization

Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.


Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda



SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Zr_vU1U6nDe3_Wx-1qdEvlEIKe59yzczytdw90NqE5KvsQcAoUlkWXCxnCt5fwdzW2lQ4C1rKYe7Y5dqlGRekEk3f9cR5sX5MbXMkMPB2_jsVO4CDx5kweJvY1Zo6vgx2Q-oIApW
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 9BQYJdPBH5F6iC5D2EnfLdU_0fqVoSXtmIrkVln0PTV_KooV-wSGzpNVyhbckLdToztPilrNfU4M6ckPIN8dTyas5vDlya27nDyCjCpY01CWnHyF3ydC43n9PgS49iwapuvsEAic
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) GmTCsolS6LsTT63ffsZDfG_DKO_2YyLWt01bTVM88wx3xi_vNrIkSasyHig6FWYQhjOLgE_LnZCIZVAaR5x4_NmjSTNd5wLiiSEU8HTGuz7N51cpBQS_zkun9FVWCwh5EeIgJg1N
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) WxBDdBs2L5f58Y5gj-F0OUDCPDIwo9MZF2j1XPpGBOwAZzWD9KmfYjberJoVWef6l-86rVlMtsuaJwVN-BFT3lEYHXqIPO_kRpcWE0Kd1NCQrxuhuiA56MlTzzg8Ht1r-lt4DXP7
SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) ZecFIv04ac_fHL7I6dtLjEHK1CLLQTrDMcwMq14wJIA7Qb0FeEmm5jpvoR0sXe0hfXRS3EgsAxHXgR39WEBqnuLyp6Zg1T4MpYwAyet-i3xH5sEA92ZoBGTk8wMUB26BS3RlRUSj


Points all still stand.


Last edited by Isv on February 27th 2020, 7:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 27th 2020, 7:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Section III - Relativity to Yoda and Irrelevance to Vader




@IG wrote:The most significant piece of information in Dooku’s favor is perhaps his relativity (even parity) to Yoda. 


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Unknown


IG's quote wrote: While Dooku was amped on Vjun, Yoda was likewise, confirmed by both Sean Stewart and in the novel itself, where all the Jedi are amped, therefore making it far more likely that Yoda was:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) NSwLodF5pLN3WZhbTcPm794Bw_UUfWJzhd49CN3I5JMGtdcHLhNmwNjQm8rYLpqhDqaIDSrhqDwc3blgmT5WDcsritQitKxWYu6oRFGn6IuGu2MKw0mWJMjc-gBcRoQAVzgypDpw

Alright, so basically we know Yoda can’t have been actively using it like Dooku was, this is for a few reasons. The first being that we know from this little email and Dooku himself, if Yoda ever turned to the Darkside he would “annihilate sidious” and according to Yoda he could “fall on him like a thunderbolt and annihilate Dooku utterly.” So, if Yoda gave into the darkside and actively drew off of it like you imply, he would have blitzed and stomped Dooku. According to the author who confirms Dooku was right  and from Dooku himself. So what we have now is a Yoda who might be drawing off of a seemingly dual nexus (which means Dooku would be double amped.)

Or and far more likely, Yoda is drawing off of Vjun which is a specifically darkside nexus but remains in the light as we know he can’t fully embrace it. This means Yoda would be essentially conflicted which as noted by Vader “poisons the darkside” so Yoda’s power and the darkness would be fighting each other leaving Yoda either slightly weakened or at base level power-wise.

All of this means nothing unless you can prove the idea that Tyranus is supremely above Kenobi anyway (which you have failed to do.)

@IG wrote:
Dooku’s able to hold his own with Yoda, who’s arguably amped more so than he is, an indefinite showing of relativity, if not parity. After his dismemberment, “he wasn't as strong as the Emperor [ROTS]”. Yoda is an equal to Sidious, if not slightly better, and Dooku’s showings against him are far, far beyond what Vader has compared to the PT titans. To build on one of my earlier rebuttals, Yoda tells Kenobi that he will “never be powerful enough” to defeat Palpatine. Yet Dooku is almost as powerful as somebody that is equal to the Emperor himself. 

I already addressed the amp argument. Vader being lesser than the emperor as of ROTS by an indeterminate amount doesn’t keep him locked beneath Tyranus. As for Dooku being almost equal to Yoda who is equal to Sidious. The latter point is true, but the idea that Dooku is near Palpatine is not.

Really, sometimes it seemed to Dooku that Darth Sidious's plots were needlessly complex. It was beginning to look very much as if Dooku could simply win: march his battle droids into Coruscant and claim the Republic outright.
Not that he would ever question the power of Darth Sidious.
Source: Yoda: Dark Rendezvous




"Dooku & Maul are 8, but there is a huge difference inside the numbers themselves. It's not about how well they fight, it's about how well they learned."




"Yes, but it's like a Richter scale - an earthquake - and so the difference between seven and eight and eight and nine is enormous."




Level nine, the highest level of lightsaber fighting, is occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.




And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.
A black hole of the Force.
Source: Revenge of the Sith

Palpatine is beyond Dooku’s comprehension “beyond power” the gap is “enormous” between the two, there is no disputing this.


@IG wrote:The quote here has Hidalgo speaking on Lucas’ behalf, rendering it G-Canon. As it came out before ROTS, it’s worth noting that it likely refers to him during AOTC. Here he notes specifically that “the skill and power” Anakin shows at the time is > what he shows as Vader. He is more powerful, and more skilled (not necessarily technical skill, but in aug at least he’s >, rendering overall skill better) than he is during ROTJ. Vader’s powers are “drastically decreased” after his injuries, so even if you want to say that he’s > AOTC Anakin, that doesn’t change the fact that Dooku was able to stomp him bar the flash of brilliance. 

You baselessly assume this refers to Attack of the Clones Anakin when Revenge of the Sith was already in production and was mostly completed:


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Cq39yVTqJbCls1sEbkUQnpbx2Uj-aOd6alxRG5imfDzXjV9riTufKGEi-4YtpjgB-5uhY56s9BiUMEd2g_1fEnEE7SA0pS6UtJ9P6spKhYgAcYe_C5bLOLe3CVflUIi641ZChbJT

 There is no reason to assume it locks Vader under his AOTC iteration. Sure, Anakin is more skilled than Vader that doesn’t have anything to do with my argument. I made sure to be very careful when discussing Vader’s lightsaber techniques and I made an argument that Vader would pressure Dooku in different ways than Anakin, he is slower, more methodical. This would not be like the duel on the Invisible Hand, Dooku would break over a period of time, which I recall describing in the opener.

@IG wrote:Star Wars Insider 86 wrote:
Not only is the blue lightning no longer an innovation, Luke’s inability to counter it, as Yoda did in Episode III, may give the audiences even more reason to worry -- Luke is not that powerful a Jedi.


@IG wrote:In comparison to Yoda, Luke is “not that powerful”. As Luke and Vader are equals in the force, and with a lightsaber per a plethora of sources, it’s safe to say that Vader himself is “not that powerful” compared to Yoda. Dooku, on the other hand, is near Yoda in power and skill with a saber. I think it’s safe to say that Dooku is superior. 


SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Unknown

I don’t blame you for this but the quote doesn’t work for what you are trying to make it do. DarthAnt66 posted this in his penultimate debate with Azronger and I’m guessing nobody ever bothered to go read the source it comes from?

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) QylQDFr9NdR4DvLF_Zm6JUjRK_Ng_iHi8kLFd2MuFNqDI2yCS2JfSCM10iVBlNpi8x7MH1df5FuQq_SovKBlVjvsK4dZ8jvaOB6wPdHnwNhGpMoBuwh9No2w9UcPqcUrZ7Mg3jxW

The entire quote is talking about the audiences perceived reactions to the scene, nothing here is out of universe, it’s all about how moviegoers might have a new understanding of different scenes with the addition of the prequels.

Section IV - The (Dis)advantages of Debating Against a Cyborg

@IG wrote:Vader’s uniquely bad at repelling lightning:

Star Wars: Ultimate Blueprints wrote:
Despite the benefits of such attributes, Vader’s artificial limbs render him unable to conjure or repel Sith lightning,

Star Wars: The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader wrote:
Unfortunately, because of his artificial arms, he was unable to conjure Sith Lightning or be invulnerable to it

Just because Vader isn’t immune to lightning doesn’t mean Dooku can capitalize on that. Your quotes only say that he isn’t able to conjure it or be totally invulnerable, which he isn’t… but that won’t stop him. This argument was literally used in 2012, it made no sense then, it makes no sense now. A force barrier can block lightning:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) 9NNbMkv__xcU5ixas7u4Q0KhsIdUU3H1BTcsGN7OpvLqpvC5gj_kkhDUm9xx_DTSXxtDmtk8hhB9zaOCRoAr1leZ9KXzVFJpsdyZ8iNUVhZwtj_-Px06Hm_jqNUnG6Xs7ULxUUkl

A lightsaber can block lightning:

Obi-wan vs Dooku

Vader himself prior to any upgrades mere months after ROTS can walk through lightning:

SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Thd3T5PbkcWbdzjdFvX83Da9TkD6OnwLoN4en_P09jFJg6SyFdgV-BYZgy_DsKh7Q5-xOpL-iDCrHUH5iRzbWCzEsDo8FYAATUjHV5IttwAgCNlI2VaSsEY-ItGrItFKMWIegXEN


Vader can tank a full blast of Starkiller’s lightning:

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawledup and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right armstrained.
Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack. The Force flowed through him. Droid parts and debris rose up and spun around the room. With a harsh rending sound, the metal wall burst outward, letting in the fury of the storm. But even in the grip of his passions he knew that there was a difference. He was intimately familiar with what being driven by negative emotions felt like. His original had been a slave to the dark side until Juno and Kota had shown him how to be free. That legacy remained even now. He would choose the emotions that ruled him. He would not be a slave to them.
The dark side tugged at Starkiller, and it was hard to resist. He hated his former Master. He feared for Juno. He doubted the very fact of his existence. Killing the man who had created him would go some way to solving at least two of those problems. The temptation was very strong.Vader's blade caught the edge of the lightning. The Dark Lord began to straighten.
-- The Force Unleashed 2

He then adds some type of insulation to his suit to mitigate the effects for the rematch:

He rolled and leapt, and came up swinging. Covered in blood-the blood of his fellow clones-and knowing Juno was close, he fought his former Master with single-minded focus. Vader was still testing him; he sensed that more and more keenly, with every passing moment, but to what purpose he still couldn't tell. Vader himself fought more cautiously than he had on the Death Star, the last time they had dueled in earnest. His armor seemed to have improved, too; it was less vulnerable to lightning than it had been just days before.

Some casual burst of lightning from Dooku isn't going to stop Vader, he is not “specifically weak to lightning” if anything he has more resistance to it than most opponents. The only time Vader has ever been hindered by lightning was Starkiller and you haven’t yet proven why Dooku has lightning on Galen’s level.

@IG wrote:Dooku is able to use Sith Lightning, and is surprisingly proficient in it, to a point where he’s able to take out powerful beings like Ventress with it:

The Official Star Wars Fact File #116 wrote:
When she claimed to be Sith, Dooku laughed in her face before shocking her into unconsciousness with Force Lightning. Later, when she had recovered, Ventress launched an attack on Dooku. The Count easily defeated the woman and destroyed her lightsabers.

Firstly, you haven’t established why “taking out powerful beings like Ventress with it” has any relevance to Vader whatsoever, beyond the fact that the Count can use it on a whim. Secondly, the example you cite is basically Jedi Ventress before she received any of the training from Dooku that makes her so formidable, she literally still has her Jedi lightsabers.

@IG wrote:This gives Dooku a massive advantage, as Vader’s inability to counter an important part of Dooku’s skillset leaves him extremely vulnerable to any lightning attacks that Dooku uses, especially since Dooku is capable of defeating foes such as Ventress with lightning. 

You haven’t proven why Vader is “unable to counter” Dooku’s lightning at all, you haven’t proven why Dooku’s lightning would be powerful enough to affect Vader in the same way Galen’s did, or why Vader can’t use his lightsaber or barrier to block said lightning.

@IG wrote:I think that I’ve sufficiently established why Dooku wins this fight, but to reiterate:

Dooku is relativistic to Yoda, somebody far, far above Vader.

Dooku is relativistic to a hindered version of Yoda, which means absolutely nothing since he is incapable of simply dismissing ROTS Kenobi which renders the entire feat moot to Vader.

@IG wrote:Dooku >> ROTS Kenobi >> Ben > ANH Vader 

Dooku can only ever be potentially > a Kenobi who can’t muster his defenses. With Ben I’m sure you could prove that, but you have failed on this occasion. That also has no relation to my Luke points which render the Ben fight far beneath peak Vader’s capabilities.


@IG wrote:Vader is arguably with his AOTC iteration in power and saber skill, both of which are far outstripped by Dooku. 


No reason to assume the quote refers to his AOTC iteration so this is a baseless claim.

@IG wrote:Your argument that ESB Luke > Dooku makes no sense when we look at the fact that Dooku is able to easily throw around carriers while scarcely amped, something offset by his growth over the Clone Wars, whereas Luke finds the task of moving an X-Wing impossible.

Glad we agree that Luke “finds the task impossible” because that is why he is incapable of performing the feat not because he lacks the power to do so. Dooku is not “scarcely amped” and there is no evidence that you have presented implying he made up for his Korriban power difference over the Clone Wars.


@IG wrote:Vader’s unique weakness to lightning leaves him extremely vulnerable to Dooku’s attacks.


The quotes you used only say that Vader is incapable of conjuring or defending against the power with his limbs, this doesn’t mean his force barrier or lightsaber would be insufficient, and even if one or two blasts got through, his insulation and armor minimize the damage that could be done. Furthermore, the only time lightning has slowed Vader at all, was against powerful masters of the force like Galen Marek or Darth Sidious himself, both characters that have no connections to Dooku that you have established in this debate.

Conclusion:

Every argument I made in my first post still stands, Vader’s connections to Dooku via Kenobi and Luke, his durability and overall growth rate are all substantiated. Vader possess enough physical strength to force Tyranus to “spend lavishly his every reserve” to meet his blows, and while he isn’t as fast as Anakin, the wear and tear of Dooku’s stamina, combined with Vader’s strength and inhuman durability (something you did not address) means he can take all of what Dooku is dishing out, but the same cannot be said in reverse.



For nine months we prepared, grew stronger. While you rested in your cradle of power.


Believing your arguments were safe and protected.


You were trusted to lead the Tyranus debaters.


But you were deceived.


As our usage of the same old arguments have blinded you.


You assumed no force could challenge you.


But now. Finally...


We have returned.


Last edited by Isv on February 27th 2020, 8:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

on February 27th 2020, 7:39 pm
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SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG) Empty Re: SS - Darth Vader (ISV) vs. Darth Tyranus (IG)

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