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Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)

June 30th 2021, 5:36 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Mace Windu vs Darth Tyranus



Standard LFL rules apply


Last edited by Vaelias on July 6th 2021, 2:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty Darth Tyranus vs Mace Windu: Darth Tyranus Post #1

July 7th 2021, 7:28 pm
To start off with, Dooku is considered Mace's superior in almost every comparison between the two.

First, to look at their duels.

Jedi Dooku has beaten Mace in their duels before, while nothing suggests that Mace has done the same.

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:Master Windu himself remained perfectly balanced and centered. In the history of the Jedi Order, only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master of lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective.

Dooku then grew immensely when he became Darth Tyranus.

https://imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-Attack-of-the-Clones.html[/mention] wrote:"I have spent the last ten years learning to use the power of the Dark Side. It gives me infinitely greater power."

Revenge of the Sith novel wrote:Once a great Jedi master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

Attack of the Clones junior novelization wrote:He felt Dooku gathering power, and he bowed his head in shock and sorrow as he sensed the true source of the Count's increased ability.

On the other hand, while arguments can certainly be made for Mace's progression from TPM to RotS, the films and the material surrounding them don't stress his growth even remotely the same way that they do for Dooku. This is in line with the vast majority of known transitions from Jedi to Dark Jedi/Sith, from Tol Braga to Anakin Skywalker. The turn of a Jedi to the Dark Side almost always correlates with an otherwise unnatural increase in power.

Darth Tyranus's escalated power is reflected in their next fight on Boz Pity in Obsession #5.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  A9613810
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  54430410

Although their battle ultimately ends in a stalemate, Dooku definitely performed better. Not only did he shrug off Mace Windu's initial force wave, but in the ensuing duel, he managed to drive Dooku back towards the cliff. Considering Makashi's inherent lack of kinetic strength compared to the other forms, this is no mean feat.

Besides direct comparisons between the two, comparisons with other characters that they come into contact with during the war paint a very clear picture.

For example, let's take a look at General Grievous.

When Mace Windu engaged the good general in a duel during the Battle of Coruscant, it was an extremely close battle that ended in a stalemate, despite the fact that Grievous had to clamp onto the top of the train with both legs to avoid being blown off. Considering that Makashi, his most practiced form, is highly dependent on footwork, as well as mobility being an important part of lightsaber dueling in general, making Grievous's performance even more impressive. In the end Mace needed to cut off the duel before it got any more out of hand.

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Without pausing, Grievous drew two lightsabers from inside his billowing cloak. By the time they were ignited, Mace was already on and all over the cyborg, batting away at the two blades, swinging low at Grievous's artificial legs, thrusting at his skeletal face.

The lightsabers thrummed and hissed, meeting one another in bursts of dazzling light. In a corner of Mace's mind he wondered to which Jedi Grievous's blades had belonged. Just as the Force was keeping Mace from being blown from the mag-lev's roof, magnetism of some sort was keeping the general fastened in place. For the cyborg, though, the coherence hindered as much as it helped, whereas Mace never remained in one place for very long. Again and again the three blades joined, in snarling attacks and parries.

As Mace already knew from Ki-Adi-Mundi and Shaak Ti, Grievous was well trained in the Jedi arts. He could recognize the hand of Dooku in the general's training and technique. His strikes were as forceful as any Mace had ever had to counter, and his speed was astonishing.

But he didn't know Vaapad-the technique of dark flirtation in which Mace excelled.

[...]

The loss of his confederates was noted by whatever computers were slaved to Grievous's organic brain, but the loss neither distracted nor slowed him. His sole setting was attack. Successful at analysing Mace's lightsaber style, those same computers suggested that Grievous alter his stance and posture, along with the angle of his parries, ripostes, and thrusts.

The result wasn't Vaapad, but it was close enough, and Mace wasn't interested in prolonging the contest any longer than necessary.

Crouching low, he angled the blade downward and slashed, guiding it through the roof of the car, perpendicular to Grievous's stalwart advance.

Grievous's superiority to Mace is further reinforced by Mace Windu's own dialogue in Battlefront: Elite Squadron, where he implores X2 for aid, stating that he isn't a match for Grievous on his own.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Main-q10

In contrast, Grievous, though capable of challenging Tyranus on occasion, has never once in all their many duels bested him.

Labyrinth of Evil wrote:Grievous had been a delight to train, as well. No need to coax him to release his anger and rage, as Dooku had been forced to do during the training of his so-called Dark Jedi disciples. The Geonosians had arranged for Grievous to be nothing but anger and rage. And as to the general's combat skills, few, if any, Jedi would be capable of defeating him. There had been moments during the extensive combat sessions when even Dooku had been hard-pressed to outduel the cyborg.

In the one spar between the two that we get to see onscreen/panel/page, Dooku is easily able to keep up with Grievous, despite the cyborg general employing several unpredictable and deadly moves that would have been impossible under the circumstances in which he dueled Windu, whilst simultaneously providing a running verbal critique of Grievous's style, before ending the duel by disarming him of one of his weapons.

Before the fact that Dooku taught Grievous is used as a counter to Dooku's worthier performances against Grievous, it should be noted that Dooku was a Makashi specialist, even well-known for only focusing on the one form, while in contrast Grievous was a practitioner of all the forms, and switched between them on a whim. Grievous was also a swordmaster from before his transformation into a cyborg, and he gained knowledge of other forms simply by fighting their users (for example, in the Windu fight shown earlier when he began to mimic Vaapad). So while Dooku started Grievous off by teaching Grievous the basics of Makashi, the majority of Grievous's methods would have been styled from his own combat experience, and so would be as alien to Dooku as they were to Mace.

Mace was unable to make significant progress in his duel against Grievous, despite Grievous being hindered by the conditions of the duel, and admitted inferiority to him. On the other hand, Dooku is undefeated against Grievous in all their many, many duels, and is only sometimes given difficulty in them. So this is one combatant that Dooku has a markedly better track record against.

Another is the Jedi Grand Master, Yoda.

As George Lucas stated, Yoda, although Tyranus's better as a lightsaber duelist, was his exact equal in terms of power.

George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Alternative Commentary wrote:”After Anakin is defeated, and Yoda comes, I took a completely different route with this swordfight. We had all this controversy about whether this was going to work, and could Yoda actually fight, you know a 2 foot frog fight a 6 foot 2 Sith Lord. And, I started out doing it fairly conservatively where he just came and fought, but that really didn’t work. And it was actually Ben Burtt and John Knoll and a bunch of the people in Editorial and ILM that were saying ‘oh you gotta make more out of this, you know, you gotta use Jedi powers, and you gotta, you can’t just go right into the swordfight’. So I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at eachother even though I knew they were equal to eachother so it was a hopeless gesture and they would’ve figured that out in two seconds, but for the audience it actually, it’s nice for them to go through this process of everybody throwing everything around.”

In the meantime, just about every comparison between Yoda and Mace Windu favors Yoda, more often than not by a hefty margin.

Nick Gilliard, fight choreographer for the Star Wars Prequels wrote:"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

Dark Rendezvous wrote:[Palpatine said] "But Master Yoda is a teacher at heart. You are a warrior. Regrettably, this sad age of the world may be your time more than his."
"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said.

Samuel L Jackson wrote:"I'm like the second baddest Jedi in the universe..."

Even if Dooku hadn't left the Order to become a Sith Lord (a change which greatly increased his power), he would have been on par with Yoda.

Insider #113 wrote:Dooku was a unique case in the history of the Jedi Order. Universally respected, he would have been a Master on a par with Yoda had he not abandoned the Order to join its greatest enemies.

Then, when it comes to the dueling session, Yoda went all out on Dooku.

George Lucas and Rob Coleman, From Puppets to Pixels wrote:Rob Coleman: "In terms of his facial expression, where we are going with that, a little concern, some effort?"
George Lucas: "Little Demon..."
Rob Coleman: "So he becomes a little more of this evil.. gremlin."
George Lucas: "He has to go from this funny old man to this tough Sergio Leone killer, if Sergio Leone can do it with Henry Fonda we can do it with Yoda."

(Lucas compares Yoda's facial expressions to that of a killer)

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Pasted10

(Yoda would have been willing to deliver the "final blow" if that wouldn't have required sacrificing Obi-Wan and Anakin)

The New Essential Chronology wrote:The count left Obi-Wan beaten and Anakin without his right-arm, and may have killed them both if not for Yoda, who arrived and launched a whirlwind attack. Dooku barely escaped with his life.

Yet Dooku held his own.

Christopher Lee, Revenge of the Sith Alternative Commentary wrote:”Always, always, always, surprise the audience, I have said that about films, do something they don’t expect. And I try to do that, that has actually been done for me in this film, because I’ve already fought Kenobi and Anakin, and beaten them, taken off Anakin’s arm and wounded Kenobi, so I’ve beaten both of them, and I wasn’t defeated by Yoda, close maybe but nobody could beat me, but that’s going to surprise the audience, there is someone that can beat me, who can finish me off, because he does, that will be a surprise, it will be unexpected and I think that’s a good thing because when they see me arrive, there is Kenobi and there is Anakin. They will think ‘uh oh, here we go again’ and I do quite a lot of damage to them, quite a lot.”

Star Wars Relaunched Fact Files #18 wrote:“Dooku battled his former tutor Yoda on Geonosis, then again on Vjun. On both occasions, Dooku fled before the outcome was clear.”

Star Wars Relaunched Fact Files #21 wrote:“Although neither opponent achieved a clear victory, the power Yoda wielded had begun to gain the upper hand against Dooku, forcing his retreat.”

So then we have Dooku being Yoda's equal in force power, and on par in terms of skill, with Mace being decisively below Yoda on both counts.

Not only is Tyranus almost invariably considered Mace's superior in direct comparisons between the two, but he has better performances and juxtapositions with other characters that he comes into contact with than Mace does. His greater power and skill are evident.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Eo_afk10
KnightfallVader
KnightfallVader

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty Re: SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)

July 8th 2021, 11:51 am
I am going to establish why and how Mace Windu is a better duelist and a more powerful force user than Darth Tyranus/ Count Dooku

To begin, I’d like to break down your point about Dooku being a better duelist than Mace.

Firstly, just because Dooku beat Mace in a spar doesn’t mean he is the better duelist, just as Plo Koon defeated Yoda in a spar, for which we know that Yoda is far better than him.

Dooku is also stated to be eclipsed by ‘Mace Windu and Yoda’ with a lightsaber’

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4211
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4211

This shows that Mace is the better duelist and perhaps even the best duelist of the clone wars era.

Note that none of Mace’s performances prior to RoTS are reflected in his full power. He has a restraint on him, including in his duel against the Count, which was a stale mate

Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:‘Their blades flared and flashed, crashing together with bursts of fire,
weaving nets of killing energy in exchanges so fast that Anakin could not
truly see them-But he could feel them in the Force.
The Force itself roiled and burst and crashed around them, boiling with
power and lightspeed ricochets of lethal intent.
And it was darkening.
Anakin could feel how the Force fed upon the shadow's murderous
exaltation; he could feel fury spray into the Force though some poisonous
abscess had crested in both their hearts.
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.

Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no
longer truly existed as an independent being.
Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He
accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and
power into his inmost center-And let it fountain out again’

This shows Mace has a pretty hard Jedi restraint on, which is made evident from his seemingly poor showings, and now this is the only direct showing of Mace's full power as he is rivaling the power of Sidious, who is also going full out.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4212

'unrestrained potency of the dark side'


George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204 wrote:"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,"

Mace defeats Darth Sidious in single combat, whereas Dooku isn’t able to even compete with him and his force abilities are above the Count’s as he was only second to Yoda in The Clone Wars.


Star Wars: Clone Wars Ultimate Battle Sticker wrote:`Mace is a brilliant Jedi warrior whose abilities with the Force are surpassed only by Yoda. `


SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4213
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4214

These Quotes confirm Mace > Hero of Umbara who demonstrated parity to Dooku when they stalemated in the Clone Wars Adventures Video Game, it also caps Mace above S1 Kenobi who is doing this to Dooku.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4214

So thus meaning S2 Mace>S1 Kenobi>AoTC Yoda=Dooku



To tackle your point about Mace and Grevious having a Stalemate:

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4215
‘Grevious is much more deadly’ than Dooku.

This means that Grevious is more of a challenge in a duel and thus a harder opponent for Mace to face.



`“As a senior member of the Jedi Order, the power he wielded rivaled that of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.” `
--Official Episode III Souvenir Movie Guide
 
This puts Mace on the same tier as Palpatine who is far above Dooku.
 
This is supported by Anakin destroying Dooku in RoTS
 

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:‘ When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.
 
When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.
 
His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.
 
In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.
 
Decide.
 
So he does.
 
He decides to win.
 
He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.
 
He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.
 
And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.
 
Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat. ‘


And Anakin is stated Palpatine's equal in RoTS
 
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4215

George Lucas wrote:
"From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor - he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku."

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4216

So coming to an overall conclusion, not only is Mace is the better duelist but he is the stronger force user by a large gap considering that Mace could rival Dooku’s Sith Master Palpatine who is equal to Anakin Skywalker. And we know that Anakin scales way above Dooku as he destroyed him in single combat. Other factors include Mace only being comparable to Yoda in force power during The Clone Wars and him being able to 'eclipse' Dooku's dueling abilities.
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty Darth Tyranus vs Mace Windu: Darth Tyranus Post #2

July 9th 2021, 1:56 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KnightfallVader wrote:Firstly, just because Dooku beat Mace in a spar doesn’t mean he is the better duelist, just as Plo Koon defeated Yoda in a spar, for which we know that Yoda is far better than him.

There are major problems with this comparison.

First off, Yoda annihilated Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba all at once in a spar.

Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter wrote:Yoda had faced the assembled students and spoken, his thin reedy voice somehow carrying to the far corners of the lecture hall without benefit of amplifiers.

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured. Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique.

On the other hand, we have nothing suggesting that Mace ever defeated Dooku, let alone soundly stomped him.

Secondly, it was only ever a rumor that Plo Koon had beaten Yoda. Given their known performance against each other, and pretty much all scaling surrounding the two, it seems highly likely that that's all it was: a rumor.

Yet Mace Windu's defeat at the hands of Dooku is confirmed to have taken place. While this feat alone doesn't cement Dooku's superiority, it certainly suggests it.

Finally, you use this exact logic in your own post when you place Season 1 Kenobi above Dooku based on a single fight between them (another severely flawed scaling route that I will get to later in the post).

As far as the "only eclipsed" quote goes, that applies only to Jedi Dooku. "Eclipsed" is synonymous with "surpassed" or "exceeded", which could just as easily mean that, while Dooku was superior to Mace during his time as a Jedi, Mace later surpassed him (with a decade or so of additional experience). This still favors Tyranus, as his growth from that time was greater than Mace's, as he is consistently lauded as having grown "infinitely" from his time as a Jedi, while Mace has nothing of the sort.

The other quote only says that he is arguably the best duelist. That's hardly a concrete placement over Dooku.

@KnightfallVader wrote:Note that none of Mace’s performances prior to RoTS are reflected in his full power. He has a restraint on him, including in his duel against the Count, which was a stale mate

The quote you provided merely states that he had no restraint during his duel against Palpatine, not that it was the first time he had fought without restraint. He was certainly going all out in the battle on Boz Pity. Mace was willing to kill Dooku during their duel, hardly something "Jedi restraint" would come into play with.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  A9613811

If one pays attention to the dialogue during this confrontation, Mace makes his intent to end the war by attacking Dooku clear. Dooku repeatedly states that Mace's goal is to kill him, and Mace says nothing to contradict that.

@KnightfallVader wrote:Mace defeats Darth Sidious in single combat, whereas Dooku isn’t able to even compete with him

On the contrary, though Mace did outduel Palpatine, once force powers came into play, he himself admitted that Palpatine was too powerful for him to handle, and begged Anakin for help.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Mace's blade bent so close to his face that he was choking on ozone. "Anakin, he's too strong for me--"

Besides this, Mace was only able to outduel the Sith Lord in the first place due to several extreme circumstances. Not only was he able to utilize Vaapad against Sidious in a way that would be impossible against any other opponent from the time, but he was also only able to find an opening in Palpatine's defenses with his Shatterpoint ability... an ability that he notes hardly ever helped him in combat situations (more often being used for less combat-oriented purposes, such as when he identified Anakin as the fulcrum that would decide the fate of the galaxy).

Revenge of the Sith novel wrote:Impasse.
Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.

On top of all this, special note is made of his motivations: of how he's not only fighting for his life, but for the Republic itself.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.
More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.
He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

As no note is made in any material of his use of Shatterpoint or any particularly deep connection to Vaapad during his duel against Tyranus on Boz Pity, we have no reason to believe that he could employ anything like that in this hypothetical battle. Hence, Mace is able to compete with Palpatine only because of a set of unique abilities and traits that allow him to fight people above his league (think Obi-Wan and pre-suit Vader), not because he's on the same level. Even with that beneficial skillset, he was still no match for Sidious when it came down to it.

@KnightfallVader wrote:Mace defeats Darth Sidious in single combat, whereas Dooku isn’t able to even compete with him and his force abilities are above the Count’s as he was only second to Yoda in The Clone Wars.

All three of the quotes you provided as evidence for this make special mention of them being Jedi, hence the comparison is within the Order. Darth Tyranus was not in the order anymore, hence he is not part of this comparison.

@KnightfallVader wrote:These Quotes confirm Mace > Hero of Umbara who demonstrated parity to Dooku when they stalemated in the Clone Wars Adventures Video Game

You didn't source the latter two quotes, so I can't verify for those two, but the first one at least does not apply to the Hero of Umbara, as the source in question was released in October of 2009, while Clone Wars Adventures wasn't released until September of 2010. If you could provide the release date for the sources of the other two quotes, that would be helpful.

In any case, the Hero of Umbara's existence is largely glossed over in other material, and as the Hero of Umbara defeated Mace Windu in the game without any circumstances of note. So that gives us a statement that might not have been made when the HoU was a character that wouldn't be likely to take the character into account, versus a direct comparison between the two that clearly favors HoU.

Besides, if Mace's (possible) supremacy quote overrides that, wouldn't this quote for Dooku override his own stalemate with  the Hero of Umbara invalid using the same logic, rendering the scaling useless?

Force Collection wrote:[Dooku's] skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.

As a bonus, it's yet another quote putting Dooku above Mace as a duelist. It's almost as if the writers are trying to tell us something.

@KnightfallVader wrote:it also caps Mace above S1 Kenobi who is doing this to Dooku.



Kenobi had the help from squads of clones throughout their duel, blasting away at Dooku from the sidelines, and running up at the end to ensure Dooku's capture. On top of that, the constant listing of the ship under barrage from the Malevolence's cannons made for an unreliable battlefield, reducing the chances of an accurate reflection of the character's relative power. At the risk of sounding tongue in cheek, it gave Kenobi the high ground towards the end of the duel. Placing Season 1 Kenobi above Dooku because of that fight is nearly as flawed to placing Bastila Shan above Darth Revan because Malak's bombardment knocked Revan out but not her.

Either way, it's all but irrelevant, as by Season 6, Dooku was able to keep up with Obi-Wan and his superior, Anakin Skywalker, dispatching Kenobi himself with near contemptuous ease. This showing in line with him taking down Kenobi "so neatly" despite Anakin's aid in RotS.

@KnightfallVader wrote:‘Grevious is much more deadly’ than Dooku.

This means that Grevious is more of a challenge in a duel and thus a harder opponent for Mace to face.

A single statement saying Grievous is more deadly than Dooku doesn't override the many Dooku has over Grievous and the track record of their duels that shows Dooku as his vast superior in a dueling sense, just as that statement's assertion that Grievous is a droid doesn't override the many statements that he's a cyborg and the fact that we see his internal organs and eyes.

Not to mention, it's a walkthrough of the level, so its statements are from a gameplay perspective, not an in-universe one.

@KnightfallVader wrote:`“As a senior member of the Jedi Order, the power he wielded rivaled that of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.” `
--Official Episode III Souvenir Movie Guide

This puts Mace on the same tier as Palpatine who is far above Dooku.

The double-emphasis on the rank of the two seems to imply political power more than force power. It also says "As a senior member of the Jedi Order," which implies that the same would hold true for other "senior members" of the Jedi Order. Would you maintain that Coleman Trebor was on par with Palpatine? Even Piell?

@KnightfallVader wrote:This is supported by Anakin destroying Dooku in RoTS

Once again all-important context is completely glossed over.

It is made clear that Anakin (at least at that point in time) was not capable of defeating Dooku under normal circumstances. He had to turn to the Dark Side for the additional power needed to hammer through Dooku's defenses, which, prior to that shift, were doing just fine holding off Anakin and Obi-Wan.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:[Palpatine] ticked his fingers one by one. "I have kept the secret of your marriage all these years. The slaughter at the Tusken camp, you shared with me. I was there when you executed Count Dooku. And I know where you got the power to defeat him."

So Palpatine is above Mace, despite Mace having a massive amplification from Vaapad and his motives that would be inapplicable in this duel, as well as a stroke of luck with Shatterpoint. Yoda is also above Mace by a hefty margin.

In comparison, Palpatine's equal in Anakin needed a boost from the Dark Side to defeat Dooku, and Dooku was exactly equal to Yoda in the force and skilled enough to stalemate (albeit at a disadvantage) an all-out Yoda.

That about finishes it for the debunks. Now for another argument in favor of Dooku.

In Ventress's duel with Mace Windu mid way through the Clone Wars, she keeps up evenly with the Jedi Master, using only one blade. As a Jar'kai specialist, this is a severe hindrance, yet she makes do just fine.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-013
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-014
[...]
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Main-q11

This duel takes place on a flying mall directly above the Jedi Temple itself, which was an extremely potent Light Side Nexus.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:The Jedi Temple was the greatest nexus of Force energy in the Republic; its ziggurat design focused the Force the way a lightsaber's gemstone focused its energy stream. With the thousands of Jedi and Padawans within it every day contemplating peace, seeking knowledge, and meditating on justice and surrender to the will of the Force, the Temple was a fountain of the light.

Ventress then grew from that point to the end of the war, at which point she is still below Grievous, who is in turn far below Dooku for the reasons already explored in this post and the previous one.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:He had a meeting scheduled with the formidable General Grievous, who was even more powerful than Ventress, but a great deal less interesting as a dinner-table conversationalist.

Dooku is also able to shrug off her force wave, a pure expression of her hate and fear. This same wave sent Kenobi flying and propelled debris with enough force to decapitate a Magna Guard, speaking volumes about its power.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Rco00410
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Rco00510

So this further strengthens Dooku's superiority to Mace. Dooku >> Ventress > Ventress with one blade ~ Mace Windu on a Light Side Nexus > Mace Windu.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Downlo10

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Images10
KnightfallVader
KnightfallVader

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty Re: SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)

July 14th 2021, 11:21 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Rebuttals



@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘Finally, you use this exact logic in your own post when you place Season 1 Kenobi above Dooku based on a single fight between them (another severely flawed scaling route that I will get to later in the post).’

 A friendly Temple spar is a lot different than an encounter with the leader of the opposing side of the war and circumstances are different so you can’t draw a comparison here. The point is Obiwan is showing some parity to Dooku during TCW and Mace is confirmed > Obiwan (during TCW) via many statements I have provided in my previous post.
 

@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘It is made clear that Anakin (at least at that point in time) was not capable of defeating Dooku under normal circumstances. He had to turn to the Dark Side for the additional power needed to hammer through Dooku's defenses, which, prior to that shift, were doing just fine holding off Anakin and Obi-Wan.’
 
While this is true, it does not make a difference as the statement I provided says that ‘from then on, he wasn’t as strong as the emperor’ meaning that in his prime he was = Sidious, and his prime was on Mustafar before he became conflicted. So KFV (primed Anakin) would do better against Dooku than he did before, thus making the gap between Dooku and Sidious even larger.
 

@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘The double-emphasis on the rank of the two seems to imply political power more than force power. It also says "As a senior member of the Jedi Order," which implies that the same would hold true for other "senior members" of the Jedi Order. Would you maintain that Coleman Trebor was on par with Palpatine? Even Piell?’

Why would it refer to political power, nobody is rivaling the supreme chancellor in political power, that quote is obviously referring to force power and no he is obviously referring to Mace and only Mace obviously not just members of the high council, it's all befitting with what Lucas says, ‘’you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor’’, not "you have to be on the high council" to compete with the emperor.
 

@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘So Palpatine is above Mace, despite Mace having a massive amplification from Vaapad and his motives that would be inapplicable in this duel, as well as a stroke of luck with Shatterpoint. Yoda is also above Mace by a hefty margin’

Well, the burden of proof is on you, I can't prove a negative, you need to prove that he was amped because the default assumption is that one is not amped and also saying that yoda > mace by a large margin, with no proof whatsoever gets you nowhere in this argument.
 

@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘All three of the quotes you provided as evidence for this make special mention of them being Jedi, hence the comparison is within the Order. Darth Tyranus was not in the order anymore, hence he is not part of this comparison’
Star Wars: Clone Wars Ultimate Battle Sticker Book` wrote:Mace is a brilliant Jedi warrior whose abilities with the Force are surpassed only by Yoda.

It doesn’t mention anything about it only including Jedi, so one would assume it was talking about all Force Users, so as of The Clone Wars only Yoda has more force power than Mace so even Sidious is not as powerful at this point.


@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:In Ventress's duel with Mace Windu mid way through the Clone Wars, she keeps up evenly with the Jedi Master, using only one blade. As a Jar'kai specialist, this is a severe hindrance, yet she makes do just fine.

This further highlights the growth that Mace Windu experiences from their fight to RoTS and also how much weaker his restraint makes him, as we see it being let go in the office against the soon-to-be Emperor, where he defeats Sidious, who is above Dooku, as I have proved in my last post.


@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:A single statement saying Grievous is more deadly than Dooku doesn't override the many Dooku has over Grievous and the track record of their duels that shows Dooku as his vast superior in a dueling sense, just as that statement's assertion that Grievous is a droid doesn't override the many statements that he's a cyborg and the fact that we see his internal organs and eyes.
 

Not to mention, it's a walkthrough of the level, so its statements are from a gameplay perspective, not an in-universe one.

I’m not aware of any quotes saying Dooku is more deadly than grievous. Are you going to provide any or just deny it? You need to provide the quotes, so you haven’t disproven anything.


@\"Darth Durin's Baneling" wrote:‘’You didn't source the latter two quotes, so I can't verify for those two, but the first one at least does not apply to the Hero of Umbara, as the source in question was released in October of 2009, while Clone Wars Adventures wasn't released until September of 2010. If you could provide the release date for the sources of the other two quotes, that would be helpful.
 
In any case, the Hero of Umbara's existence is largely glossed over in other material, and as the Hero of Umbara defeated Mace Windu in the game without any circumstances of note. So that gives us a statement that might not have been made when the HoU was a character that wouldn't be likely to take the character into account, versus a direct comparison between the two that clearly favors HoU.
 
Besides, if Mace's (possible) supremacy quote overrides that, wouldn't this quote for Dooku override his own stalemate with  the Hero of Umbara invalid using the same logic, rendering the scaling useless?’’
 
Mace has a strong narrative intent argument in where he is constantly placed as the Jedi with the most proximity to Yoda


-- George Lucas, The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith; page 204 wrote: 
"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor,"

This quote is G-Canon so it can’t be bound by SL, meaning it doesn’t matter when HoU was made, and by saying ‘you have to be either mace or Yoda puts Mace > HoU as it is implied that the HoU can’t compete with the Emperor.

So Mace > Dooku

And like I’ve said before, HoU fights Count Dooku, ending in a stalemate. 
 

Star Wars: Adventures Game wrote: wrote:Stalemate! Count Dooku is battled to a standstill, but before the Sith Lord can be apprehended, Asajj Ventress intervenes! With the Dark Jedi covering her Master's retreat, your only option is to battle the dangerous assassin!

 So HoU = Dooku


SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Img_4216
 2010 Topps Star Wars: The Clone Wars- Rise of the Bounty Hunters - Foil Character #8 Mace Windu


Meaning S2 Mace > HoU = Dooku




Stat Comparison



SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Image010
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Image110

As we can see from this Stat Comparison, Mace surpasses Dooku in almost everything, with some of their stats being equal


So to conclude, Mace has shown superiority in not just Duelling, but overall power, and this is supported through a number of statements including a G-Canon statement that caps Mace > Dooku.
Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Empty Darth Tyranus vs Mace Windu: Darth Tyranus Post #3

July 21st 2021, 4:45 am
@KnightfallVader wrote: A friendly Temple spar is a lot different than an encounter with the leader of the opposing side of the war and circumstances are different so you can’t draw a comparison here.

If there were anything to suggest that either would have been holding back from trying to win the duel, this might be a valid point. However, based on what we know of the two characters, the opposite holds to be true. We know that Mace enjoys the thrill of combat (as is made amply clear in both Shatterpoint and The Colossus of Destiny), and we also know that Dooku reveled in his superiority to others, even as a student (Yoda: Dark Rendezvous). It would be out of character for either to have held back in their spars.

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Lightsaber Duels wrote:"You [Mace Windu] were never able to defeat me at the Jedi Temple, and you won’t defeat me now.”

The fact that Mace never once outdueled Dooku in the several duels confirmed to have taken place shows solid superiority as a duelist on Dooku's part, as there are no limitations that would have applied to Mace that wouldn't have also restrained Dooku. Dooku then grew massively from then to his time as Darth Tyranus (as I pointed out in my previous posts), with no acknowledgement of similar growth from Mace.

@KnightfallVader wrote:The point is Obiwan is showing some parity to Dooku during TCW and Mace is confirmed > Obiwan (during TCW) via many statements I have provided in my previous post.

A single duel (that, I might add, canonically never took place, as the duel contradicts TCW Season 1 Episode 3, T-Canon material) with circumstances that heavily favored Kenobi in no way takes away from the fact that Dooku was able to take down Kenobi with ease at the end of the war.

On top of this, while Mace is above Kenobi, it isn't to all that great a degree. Kenobi was able to take down Grievous, while Mace himself admitted that he was incapable of accomplishing this, proving that they are so close that it comes down to mere style rather than power or skill. Hence, Mace may as well be equal to Kenobi.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:“In fact, Obi-Wan, I believe that of all living Jedi, you have the best chance to defeat him."



"But surely, Master Windu," Obi-Wan had said, "you, with the power of Vaapad-or Yoda's mastery of Ataru-"

Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataru is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"

Blinking, Obi-Wan had been forced to admit he'd never actually thought of it that way.

"That is so like you, Master Kenobi," the Korun Master had said, shaking his head. "I am called a great swordsman because I invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing form-or the master of the classic form?"

"I'm very flattered that you would consider me a master, but really-"

"Not a master. The master," Mace had said. "Be who you are, and Grievous will never defeat you."

Dooku >>> Kenobi ~< Windu

@KnightfallVader wrote:Why would it refer to political power,

The double emphasis on rank. "As a senior member of the Jedi Order" makes the comparison dependent on his position within the Jedi order, hence, political power. Again, unless you'd say that the same holds true for other senior members of the Jedi Order, which would include the likes of Piell and Trebor. Dooku was also a senior member of the order during his tenure as a Jedi, as he was a highly regarded Master who was himself offered a place on the High Council. So if it is personal power (as you've been arguing up to this point), would it not also benefit Dooku?

@KnightfallVader wrote:nobody is rivaling the supreme chancellor in political power,

Jedi had great influence over the galaxy. Each Senior member of the Jedi Council were also skilled negotiators. Trebor (who could settle disputes without ever pulling out the lightsaber) rivalling Palpatine in political power is certainly more logical than him being comparable in force power.
@KnightfallVader wrote:that quote is obviously referring to force power and no he is obviously referring to Mace and only Mace obviously not just members of the high council,

As a senior member of the Jedi Order. The members of the Jedi High Council are the most senior members of the Order.

If we know that:

a. members of the Jedi Council are senior members of the Order

b. Mace's "rivalry" with Palpatine in some form is dependent on his rank as a senior member of the Order

It then follows that the other members of the Council have the same rivalry with Palpatine.

Is that rivalry political or tangible? If it's political, then it's irrelevant to the debate. If it's tangible, then you're arguing that pretty mid-tier Jedi are on the same level as Palpatine as well as Mace, and it would also likely extend to Dooku. One is logical. The other is not. Neither helps your position in this debate.

@KnightfallVader wrote:it's all befitting with what Lucas says, ‘’you have to be Mace or Yoda to compete with the emperor’’, not "you have to be on the high council" to compete with the emperor.

So a G-Canon quote belies the possibility of the other Council Members being on par with Sidious, as that quote would suggest, conclusively showing that the "power" is something other than the tangible sort. Now we've narrowed it down to only one of the two arguments that lead nowhere in the discussion.

@KnightfallVader wrote:Well, the burden of proof is on you, I can't prove a negative, you need to prove that he was amped because the default assumption is that one is not amped

Gladly.

First of all, Mace's superior in Yoda was inferior to Palpatine, so there goes putting Mace above Palpatine to scale above Dooku.

Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:The two engaged in a spectacular duel- a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...
just-
didn't-
have it.

So that already puts Mace conclusively below Sidious, meaning either the duel was a bit of a fluke, or there were some outside circumstances, rendering a "Mace>Palpatine>Dooku" scaling route invalid.

Now for proof he was amped, rather than simply lucky.

I already brought up the novel's emphasis on his mindset. He was fighting for his love, the Republic, and got extra strength because of that. His motivations already gave him an advantage in this duel that would be inapplicable to this hypothetical battle between him and Dooku.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life.

More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways.

He was fighting for the Republic that he loved.

Next we need to look at how he fared before he doubled down on this emotional boost with Vaapad.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:"Resist? How could I possibly resist?" Still seated at the desk Palpatine shook an empty fist helplessly, the perfect image of a tired, frightened old man. "This is murder, you Jedi traitors! How can I be any threat to you?"

He turned desperately to Saesee Tiin. "Master Tiin—you're the telepath. What am I thinking right now?" Tiin frowned and cocked his head. His blade dipped. A smear of red-flashing darkness hurtled from behind the desk. Saesee Tiin's head bounced when it hit the floor. Smoke curled from the neck, and from the twin stumps of the horns, severed just below the chin.

Kit Fisto gasped, "Saesee!"

The headless corpse, still standing, twisted as its knees buckled, and a thin sigh escaped from its trachea as it folded to the floor.

"It doesn't..." Agen Kolar swayed. His emerald blade shrank away, and the handgrip tumbled from his opening fingers. A small, neat hole in the middle of his forehead leaked smoke, showing light from the back of his head. "...hurt..." He pitched forward onto his face, and lay still.

Palpatine stood at the doorway, but the door stayed shut. From his right hand extended a blade the color of fire. The door locked itself at his back.

"Help! Help!" Palpatine cried like a man in desperate fear for his life. "Security—someone! Help me! Murder! Treason!"

Then he smiled. He held one finger to his lips, and, astonishingly, he winked. In the blank second that followed, while Mace Windu and Kit Fisto could do no more than angle their lightsabers to guard, Palpatine swiftly stepped over the bodies back toward his desk, reversed his blade, and drove it in a swift, surgically precise stab down through his desktop.

He kills Agen Kolar and Saesee Tiin before Mace could react, and was able to move across the room and destroy the computer console in the time it took Mace to move his lightsaber into a combat ready position. He was clearly moving much faster than Mace.

Speed correlates with power, as force users augment their physical abilities with the force. Hence, Palpatine moving faster than Mace is proof of Mace's lesser power.

This means that, as Mace wasn't speedblitzed, he received a boost in power that also increased his speed for the latter portion of the duel.

Now we just need to look at how Vaapad works.

With the aid of Vaapad, stacked on top of his beneficial mindset, he was able to channel Palpatine's dark side energy into a loop, which would have made for an endless stalemate in their duel if not for Mace's Shatterpoint ability.

@KnightfallVader wrote:[Windu] was not afraid. The darkness had no power over him. But--

Neither did he have power over it.

Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air, couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage of overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.

Impasse.

Which might have gone on forever, if Vaapad were Mace's only gift.

Shatterpoint doesn't even help him reliably against non force sensitives. It seems unlikely that it would against Dooku.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Unknow10
(Shatterpoint)

So Mace, after an already substantial boost from his irregularly intense motivation, was then able to channel Palpatine's dark side power to equalize the power difference between them. Hence, amped.

Now you might ask why he wouldn't be able to do the same thing against Dooku. The answer is simple. He was unable to do that against anyone he fought, except Palpatine, who is narratively the embodiment of the dark side. He is even referred to as "the Shadow" and such in the RotS novelization (the source that goes the most in-depth in the fight). Even when he went up against Dark Siders in Shatterpoint (also written by Stover, the author of the RotS novelization), such as Kar Vastor and Depa Billaba, he was unable to use Vaapad in the same way to make up the difference. On top of this, Dooku had 60+ years as a Jedi, so unlike Palpatine, he can duel Mace without using the Dark Side to nearly the same degree, thus negating Vaapad's already precarious advantage.

And again, he was already helped by the fact that he was fighting above his normal capacity due to the threat that Palpatine posed to the Republic.

On top of this, out of the Jedi, only Yoda is capable of challenging Dooku.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Main-q12

Star Wars Force Collection: Dooku [Dark Lord] wrote:After years of careful planning, misdirection, and manipulation, Dooku finally stands ready to bring his master's vision for an ordered galaxy and an end to the Clone Wars to fruition. Staging the kidnapping of the Supreme Chancellor, Dooku now moves to quickly dispatch the only remaining Jedi who can still oppose him.

So if Dooku can't challenge Palpatine, but Mace can, but Mace can't challenge Dooku, that means that Mace must either have been amped against Sidious, or severely disadvantaged against Dooku enough that he can't challenge him. Either way, Dooku stomps.

@KnightfallVader wrote:and also saying that yoda > mace by a large margin, with no proof whatsoever gets you nowhere in this argument.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  39523600

I already provided three statements for you that place Yoda as Mace's superior. Hardly "no proof whatsoever." Here they are again:

Nick Gilliard, fight choreographer for the Star Wars Prequels wrote:"We've not seen Mace fight yet, and we know that he's second only to Yoda."

Dark Rendezvous wrote:[Palpatine said] "But Master Yoda is a teacher at heart. You are a warrior. Regrettably, this sad age of the world may be your time more than his."

"Master Yoda is many things, and I am not his equal in peace or war," Mace said.

Samuel L Jackson wrote:"I'm like the second baddest Jedi in the universe..."

Here are some more.

Jedi Quest: The False Peace wrote:That was why Mace was on the Jedi Council. That was why, except for Yoda, Obi-Wan thought him the most powerful Jedi he'd ever known.

Clone Wars Gambit: Siege wrote:As the most skilled and experienced Jedi Master in the Temple, Yoda could hide those inconvenient feelings from everyone who knew him, but they were there.

Fact Files wrote:Despite his diminutive size and frailty, Yoda’s incomparable ability to summon the power of the Force enabled him to greatly enhance his agility and speed.

As a bonus, here's a nice little admission from Mace himself.

Shatterpoint wrote:Mace opened himself to the Force. He could hear Yoda's voice: Size matters not--which, Mace had always privately considered, was more true for Yoda than it was for any of his students. Yoda would probably just reach out, lift the steamcrawler from the gully, and casually float it up the mountain to the outpost while croaking some enigmatic maxim about how Even a volcano is as nothing compared to the power of the Force... Mace was much less confident in his own raw power.

@KnightfallVader wrote:It doesn’t mention anything about it only including Jedi, so one would assume it was talking about all Force Users, so as of The Clone Wars only Yoda has more force power than Mace so even Sidious is not as powerful at this point.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  39523600

Clone Wars Ultimate Battle Sticker wrote:Mace is a brilliant Jedi warrior whose abilities with the Force are surpassed only by Yoda.

2010 Topps Star Wars: The Clone Wars- Rise of the Bounty Hunters - Foil Character #8 Mace Windu wrote:Mace Windu is one of the most powerful and respected Jedi, second only to Yoda.

In terms of power and wisdom, Mace Windu is second only to Yoda in the Jedi Order.

Also, if these affected force users as a whole, that would be capping Wutzek and stuff below Mace, which is flawed for obvious reasons.

In any case, if these did affect Dooku, these are all contradicted by this Lucas quote that I posted at the beginning of the debate (as Dooku < Mace < Yoda in force power is incompatible with Mace < Yoda = Dooku in force power).

George Lucas, Attack of the Clones Alternative Commentary wrote:”After Anakin is defeated, and Yoda comes, I took a completely different route with this swordfight. We had all this controversy about whether this was going to work, and could Yoda actually fight, you know a 2 foot frog fight a 6 foot 2 Sith Lord. And, I started out doing it fairly conservatively where he just came and fought, but that really didn’t work. And it was actually Ben Burtt and John Knoll and a bunch of the people in Editorial and ILM that were saying ‘oh you gotta make more out of this, you know, you gotta use Jedi powers, and you gotta, you can’t just go right into the swordfight’. So I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at eachother even though I knew they were equal to eachother so it was a hopeless gesture and they would’ve figured that out in two seconds, but for the audience it actually, it’s nice for them to go through this process of everybody throwing everything around.”

Also, weren't you just asking for evidence of Yoda being Mace's superior? Really seems like you're trying to have your cake and eat it too with these quotes.

@KnightfallVader wrote:This further highlights the growth that Mace Windu experiences from their fight to RoTS and also how much weaker his restraint makes him, as we see it being let go in the office against the soon-to-be Emperor, where he defeats Sidious, who is above Dooku, as I have proved in my last post.

So we're just going to gloss over the fact that the quote you used as "evidence" of Mace using restraint in all previous fights doesn't even say that, it only says that he didn't have restraint against Palpatine?

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:
There was no Jedi restraint here.
Mace Windu was cutting loose.

And we're also going to ignore the fact that the writers of Obsession made it clear that Mace intended to kill Dooku on Boz Pity?

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  A9613812

Because I brought both these points up in previous posts. In order for the debate to work, you need to either concede these points, or elaborate on why this actually works okay with Mace using restraint in all prior battles, or give a better reason for why it does. Brushing it off to the side and continuing along while still incorporating the disputed reasoning in your paradigm is counterproductive.

Mace Windu regretted the fact that he didn't decapitate Dooku on the spot at the cost of his own life every single day of the Clone War. Do you mean to tell me that Mace wouldn't try his hardest against Dooku the next time they fought? With the dialogue exchanged in the comic itself staring in your face?

Shatterpoint wrote:FROM THE PRIVATE JOURNALS OF MACE WINDU
[...]
But I do it right.
My blade doesn't light the underside of Jango Fett's square jaw. I don't waste time with words. I don't hesitate.
I believe.
In my dreams, the purple flare of my blade sizzles the gray hairs of Dooku's beard, and in the critical semisecond it takes Jango Fett to aim and fire, I twitch that blade and take Dooku with me into death.

I'm not buying the idea that the office duel was the first time Mace fought without restraint, especially without any evidence to actually support that claim. It goes entirely against the thematic focus of Stover's other novel.  

Regardless, even if we ignore all the evidence to the contrary and treat non-evidence as evidence, isn't in-character the default for this matches? Why would Mace exercise restraint on Boz Pity but not in this hypothetical battle?

@KnightfallVader wrote:I’m not aware of any quotes saying Dooku is more deadly than grievous. Are you going to provide any or just deny it? You need to provide the quotes, so you haven’t disproven anything.

Again, it's from a gameplay perspective.

But if you want a statement to put Dooku above Grievous (kind of a funny request tbh), here you go.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Image011

Now I'll do you one better. How about a statement putting Dooku above Grievous and his entire army by a large margin?

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Image010

Palpatine knew (meaning that he was correct in this) that Grievous and his entire army couldn't possibly withstand Anakin, yet he holds Dooku on par with Anakin (as Dooku's teacher for 10+ years and Anakin's father figure who spent a lot of time analyzing his capabilities, that's about as reliable an assessment as we can get).

@KnightfallVader wrote:Mace has a strong narrative intent argument in where he is constantly placed as the Jedi with the most proximity to Yoda

A narrative intent that was held at a time when HoU didn't exist, or by people who almost certainly don't know he does exist. If you can find a source that continues to espouse this same intent and also acknowledges HoU's existence, this argument might hold water.

@KnightfallVader wrote:This quote is G-Canon so it can’t be bound by SL, meaning it doesn’t matter when HoU was made, and by saying ‘you have to be either mace or Yoda puts Mace > HoU as it is implied that the HoU can’t compete with the Emperor.

Your entire argument is now essentially tied on that one comparison with a character, one that Mace has a very specific advantage against that I already described. On top of that, you left out the context surrounding the quote.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-015

First of all, if you let George Lucas finish his statement, he lists Anakin as among those who could keep up with Palpatine. The very same Anakin who, as I proved earlier, needed the dark side to defeat Dooku (you already agreed to this).

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-016

Hence, Dooku breaks from this statement regardless of its other implications under your rules (and, man, what implications they are).

In context, with it talking about the B-team and their inability to keep up with Palpatine, it's clear that it's talking about those who would fight Palpatine, so modern day Jedi, not characters in general. So it shouldn't apply to Tyranus at all.

If we're going by your assertions that it needs to directly state that it's only referring to Jedi and that OOU timeline is unimportant in regards to Lucasfilm policy (you insist on both in the Windu/HoU comparisons), then that also locks the Father of Shadows, Wutzek, Tilotny, Horliss Horliss, Splendid Ap, Cold Danda Sine, Typhojem, Valkorion, Krayt, Caedus, Revan, Onimi, Abeloth, the Ones, etc, etc, etc, under those three.

Will you defend...

1. Palpatine
2. Windu
3. Yoda

...as your top three list of Star Wars characters in general? If not, then you need to reevaluate a lot of the positions that you've taken over the course of this debate. If this is indeed your top three list, I'll just say I look forward to the conclusions.

@KnightfallVader wrote:As we can see from this Stat Comparison, Mace surpasses Dooku in almost everything, with some of their stats being equal

Stats are S-Canon, and as such they take a backseat to C-Canon and above, in which I showed that Dooku is far and away Mace's better.

On top of this, a single stat comparison far from proves Mace's overarching "superiority". Some stats, such as Head to Head Tag Teams, favor Dooku far over Windu.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Image012

Pablo Hidalgo is credited as the author.

@KnightfallVader wrote:So to conclude, Mace has shown superiority in not just Duelling,

Far from it.

@KnightfallVader wrote:but overall power

Not even close.

@KnightfallVader wrote:and this is supported through a number of statements

And contradicted by a greater number of statements and pretty much every showing.

@KnightfallVader wrote:including a G-Canon statement that caps Mace > Dooku.

It caps Dooku to the same degree that it caps literally everybody else in the verse including nigh-omniscient force entities.

To close out, I have three more arguments for Mace's inferiority to Dooku.

First, Dooku's better feats of raw force power.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  56789510

(arguably the best AoE TK feat in the TCW medium)

Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown wrote:They moved farther into the darkness.

"Keep your focus loose," Obi-Wan warned him in a low tone. "He will come from anywhere when he comes."

"This time I'll be prepared."

"Don't be so confident," Obi-Wan answered. "You probably won't be."

They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.

Like phantoms..

Phantoms that move...

Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening. They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.

Anakin ran to the mountain of metal and tried to climb over it. Obi-Wan felt the dark side rise in a crest and then fall, leaving a vacuum behind.

"It's no use," he told Anakin. "The Sith is gone."

(For reference, cruisers are at least 400 meters long. Dooku threw one along with a small fleet of smaller vessels. It easily beats out any TK feat of Mace's.)

Second, Dooku's force sense/TP advantage.

Mace can't sense the intentions of untrained force sensitives.

Shatterpoint wrote:Though he couldn't say for certain that it would be any more chancy than spending more time with these young Korunnai. They worried him; they had enough Force-touch to be unpredictable, and enough savagery to be dangerously powerful. And then there was Nick, who was at best marginally sane.

Plo Koon can sense Mace's every move before he makes it.

The Clone Wars: Lightsaber Duels wrote:“You may be able to sense my moves, but I’m still too fast for you.”

-Mace Windu to Plo Koon

Mace's inferiority to Plo as a telepath is further solidified when Plo is selected to restore Aayla's lost memories when Mace was also onboard the ship.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Rco00511
(Republic #36)

In contrast, Dooku's mind was unknowable to Yoda, Mace's superior, due to his power in telepathy.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  Main-q11
(The Complete Visual Dictionary)

So Mace would be an open book to Dooku. According to Path of Destruction, precognition and force sense are vitally important to a duel. Dooku having such a distinct advantage there would further tip it into his territory.

Finally, Mace's inferiority to Anakin as of the beginning of Revenge of the Sith, who you agreed was below Dooku under normal circumstances.

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

And to close out, some superiority statements.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:"Mm. Thinking of students, I am. Best then I should go to battle with him in whom the Force is strongest, hmm? With young Skywalker; think you?"

"He's not polished," Ilena said.

"And too impulsive," Mace added.

"Hm." Yoda stirred again with his stick. "Then best of all would be the strongest student, yes? Wisest? Most learned in the ways of the Force?" He nodded. "Best of all, Dooku would be!"

His eyes found the other Jedi, one by one: and one by one, they looked away.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #113 wrote:In adolescence Dooku became the Padawan learner of Thame Cerulian, a Jedi scholar on the Council who called Dooku the finest swordsman he had ever seen.

Star Wars: Force Collection: Count Dooku wrote:A former Jedi Master, Dooku’s fall to the Dark Side happened after he had left the Jedi Order. His skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.

Star Wars: Bounty Hunter Manual wrote:As the prized pupil of Yoda, many believed that Dooku’s knowledge of the Force was second only to his Master.

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #3 wrote:Dark side powers enabled Sith Lord Darth Tyranus to manipulate the Force at will, hurling objects or casting devastating energy bolts. Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack.

Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:On the other side of the galaxy, the Order's most gifted apprentice reached out to tap a lightsaber with the toe of his boot. Count Dooku grimaced.

Dooku is better at everything.

SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-017
SS - Mace Windu (KnightfallVader / alex s) vs Darth Tyranus (Darth Dorin's Baneling)  2021-018
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