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Ziggy
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on September 7th 2019, 1:17 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:B) Jacen's utter astonishment at Luke's power and believing he's finally capped a limit on it.

Wasn't he referring to Luke's illusions?

Luke holding back doesn't hold up when we consider that in the very next book he goes to extreme lengths to capture Jacen, including wielding a level of power Jacen's never seen him use before, and no dramatic change in mindset between that event and this.

Wait - if Luke shows a level of power Jacen hadn't seen only after the Vong droids, wouldn't that mean that he isn't using his full power in that fight?

DC77 seems to enjoy debunking his own comparisons.
The Ellimist
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on September 8th 2019, 6:22 am
And for the OP:

5 - oneshot/ragdoll
4 - utterly dominate
3 - beat comfortably
2 - beat with difficulty
1 - barely defeat

Revan vs. SWTOR Vitiate - 2.5
Dooku vs. RotS Yoda - 4
IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku - 3.5
Caedus vs. Luke - 4.5
Freedon Nadd vs. Exar Kun - 2
Exar Kun vs. SF Malak - 2
Outlander vs. Valkorion - 4
Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious - 2
DE Luke vs. TUF Luke - 4
TUF Luke vs. FotJ Luke - 2
Ventress vs. Dooku - 5
Bane vs. Ramage - 4
Vitiate vs. Valkorion - 2
pre-Nathema Vitiate vs. novel Vitiate - 4
RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious - 4
S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin - 3.5
Apoc Krayt vs. Krayt Reborn - 2
PoD bane vs. DoE Bane - 4
Sirak vs. Kas'im - 5
TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon - 3
Act I HoT vs. Act III HoT - 4
Act III HoT vs. The Outlander - 4
Arcann vs. Vaylin - 4
Master Azronger
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on September 8th 2019, 6:49 am
@The Ellimist wrote:And for the OP:

5 - oneshot/ragdoll
4 - utterly dominate
3 - beat comfortably
2 - beat with difficulty
1 - barely defeat

Stealing this.

Revan vs. SWTOR Vitiate - 1 or 2
Dooku vs. RotS Yoda - 4
IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku - 1 or 2
Caedus vs. Luke - 5
Freedon Nadd vs. Exar Kun - no idea
Exar Kun vs. SF Malak - no idea
Outlander vs. Valkorion - 5
Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious - 1 or 2
DE Luke vs. TUF Luke - no idea
TUF Luke vs. FotJ Luke - no idea
Ventress vs. Dooku - 4 or 5
Bane vs. Ramage - 3 or 4 or 5
Vitiate vs. Valkorion - no idea
pre-Nathema Vitiate vs. novel Vitiate - no idea
RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious - 5
S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin - 3
Apoc Krayt vs. Krayt Reborn - 1 or 2 or 3
PoD bane vs. DoE Bane - 4
Sirak vs. Kas'im - 5
TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon - no idea
Act I HoT vs. Act III HoT - 3 or 4
Act III HoT vs. The Outlander - 4
Arcann vs. Vaylin - 5
The Ellimist
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on September 8th 2019, 9:19 am
Azronger wrote:RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious - 5

Wow
Sjuttiosju
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on September 9th 2019, 2:53 pm
I'll respond to these points tomorrow (Been busy IRL, so apologies for the delay).
Ziggy
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on September 9th 2019, 3:19 pm
I work more than 50 hours per week Rank these powers gaps - Page 3 228124001
Sjuttiosju
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on September 22nd 2019, 7:17 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Apologies for the delay.

@The Ellimist:

Wasn't he referring to Luke's illusions?

Yes and no:

Revelation wrote:Caedus refused to let his recent brush with Luke rattle his composure as he stepped through the hatch of Bloodfin's hangar, Tahiri at his heels.
He'd been duped with a brilliant Fallanassi illusion and had his StealthX almost ripped from under him. That had left him reeling, but not for long.
He realized that it wasn't an indication of his own vul-nerability. It was a benchmark revealed to him as part of his destiny.
Luke had come after him: that showed how desperately urgent it now was for the Jedi to stop him. Luke was pulling out all the stops.
The illusion, however masterful, was the best that Luke and his entourage could do. Or else they'd have used it to defeat him there and then.
The attack on his StealthX-that was the best Luke and his wingmate could do, too. They couldn't stop him or grab him, even with chunks of his fighter missing. And they didn't have what it took to kill him, militarily or emotion-ally.
Luke was the greatest Jedi Master, and he'd just exposed the absolute limits of his powers, a suicidal gamble in any war. No-no, the Force had laid out the evidence for Caedus, and all he had to do was look at it from the right perspective. Caedus truly knew his enemy now. And he knew that Luke's best shot wasn't good enough.

He references both the TK assault on his StealthX and the illusions.

Wait - if Luke shows a level of power Jacen hadn't seen only after the Vong droids, wouldn't that mean that he isn't using his full power in that fight?

That's operating under the assumption Luke would have used the same power against Jacen he was using against a few fodder YVH droids, which doesn't make sense when we consider Luke's actions in the following books, and what we know about his mindset in general. In this scenario Luke had the perfect moment to shred Jacen with TK, and every reason to use the power he uses later, yet doesn't.

@Ziggy:

Let's look at the "feat" in question shall we:

Revelation wrote:The adrenaline and pure white rage looping back to him from the individual commanders made his throat tighten. It was almost like a back-pressure effect, that the passion for the battle that he was channelling into them gained power and momentum, and syphoned back into him as a changed and magnified thing that he felt he had to vent from his chest or scream.
He was out of breath. He hoped nobody noticed. It might have looked as if he were panicking…
His lungs demanded air. The cumulative effect of his commanders' heart-pounding aggression needed out now.

It's the emotional overload that's causing Jacen so much strain, not the force energy required to create/hold the link itself. Jacen's aim was to heighten their aggression, and he ended up filling each commander with "white hot rage" which then was funnelled back through him. Jacen being drained comes as a result of him needing to discharge that emotional overload onto the Fondorians below. Correct me if I'm wrong but the comparisons you cited are fairly different in nature, with Kun merely immobilising a bunch of non force sensitives via TP, as opposed to doing anything of this magnitude.

In this particular instance, Caedus was guarded by several YVH droids all of whom were firing on Luke, Saba and his Ben.  Using the logic of Luke not doing something means he can't, means we can just as easily infer that one-shotting several YHV droids - who have 50/50 odds against random Jedi Knights - is also beyond the Jedi Grandmaster's ability.  

All the reasoning used to make excuses for Jacen can be applied here.  The droids were a mortal threat to his son.

The droids were a mortal threat to his son sure, but not to the same degree as Jacen. Moreover, Jacen was the objective, it makes sense that Luke would apply far more power when dealing with his Sith lord, extremely powerful nephew, who is what they're there to capture, as opposed to a few fodder YVH Droids. Moreover we've seen that Luke tends to hold back even in insane situations, however, as evidenced by the following book, he doesn't do that with Jacen.

The method used to remove some of the droids - planting grenades on them -  posed a risk to the Jedi in question.  Saba was actually injured as a result of this tactic.

Saba was injured because she got tossed by Jacen's TK into one of the explosives, which actually lends credibility to my point, that Jacen, the only one too subdue a member of the group, is an infinitely greater threat than the YVH Droids.

More context: Caedus being a threat to Luke - or the Galaxy for that matter - wouldn't preclude him from holding back as he has done up until his greatest threat, Abeloth.  The fact is, he would still try and capture Caedus without using his full power in heroic fashion.  In the instance where Luke, Ben and Saba board the Anakin Solo their main goal is to be a distraction so Leia can rescue Alana Solo from the ship. Capturing the latter is a secondary objective :

Except I'm not arguing that the Luke who fought Abeloth can't one shot Jacen, but that the Luke who's drawing on greater power than he ever has in Jacen's presence, is incapable of one shotting him. Moreover, the fact that Jacen isn't the primary objective is an irrelevancy, per Luke himself they were going to capture Jacen if they could, suggesting that they were incapable of such an act, given Luke calls off the assault on Jacen and co halfway through the fight.

I am serious. Caedus had ample opportunity to shield himself or dispose of his attacker. But instead looked him in the eye and attempted an illusion getting shot as a result.

So, how does that prove Jacen was going all out against Mitra?

It wasn't a cheapshot either.

The Mando caught Jacen off guard and grabbed onto his ankle before he had a chance to defend himself, how is that not a cheap shot?

The Mandalorian in question wasn't even allowed to kill Jacen at the behest of Fett.

I don't see the relevance.

Of course, he was considering using the force against all of his pursuers, more to the point, he's not avered to killing his enemies.

Of course he's not against killing his enemies, but that's not the point. His goal was to help Tahiri escape, which she did. Why should an already exhausted Jacen waste more energy breaking Jaina's attempts to resist the choke, when he's already accomplished his objective?

Because Luke wasn't using any effort at all in pinning Caedus or his chair, while the latter couldn't do anything about it. Jaina on the other hand, did successfully break Jacen's choke over Mitra while the latter "may or may not" have been using a decent degree of his strength.  If you conclude Jacen can one shot Jaina, then Luke can one shot Caedus, like he did, twice, in the story itself.

Your comparison hinges on several things:

>Jacen's ability to one shot Jaina.
>Her being able to shatter his choke.
>Jacen failing to break Luke's hold on the chair proving the gap between him and Jacen is bigger than the Jacen/Jaina gap.

I've proven the first is false, Jacen might be able to one shot her conventionally but in the hyper exhausted state he was in there, he couldn't, rendering your comparison useless. You've failed to address this point beyond simply goalpost changing to attacking the stipulations which exhausted Jacen, which doesn't address my initial point. Either concede and drop this point or weasel out of the exhaustion argument. Neither helps your case here.
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on September 22nd 2019, 7:54 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:
Yes and no:

He references both the TK assault on his StealthX and the illusions.

It seems like that just shows that Luke arguably couldn't capture Jacen alive in the middle of a dogfight. Luke wasn't trying to kill Jacen; that was just Jacen's fantasy. And Jacen was clearly wrong about this being the limits of Luke's powers, given that he didn't even consider the possibility that the two-places-at-once trick of Luke's in Invincible was an illusion, or that he was jamming his visions. Indeed, Invincible makes it clear that Luke could've been "sure" to kill Jacen if he actually went after him, but did not because he foresaw himself falling to the dark side if he did. And Jacen wasn't basing this claim on any particular sensing through the Force - he just (wrongly) deduced it.

That's operating under the assumption Luke would have used the same power against Jacen he was using against a few fodder YVH droids, which doesn't make sense when we consider Luke's actions in the following books, and what we know about his mindset in general. In this scenario Luke had the perfect moment to shred Jacen with TK, and every reason to use the power he uses later, yet doesn't.

Luke doesn't use his full power often due to wariness of falling to the dark side. Using his full power to ragdoll Jacen wouldn't necessarily be exempt from that just because it wouldn't kill him.

If the question is whether Luke at his normal operating levels can ragdoll Jacen, I would say no. But I don't think his higher operating levels are involuntary states.
Sjuttiosju
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on September 22nd 2019, 8:11 am
I'll wait for Ziggy to post and then respond to both of you at once.
Ziggy
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on September 24th 2019, 5:11 pm
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DC77 wrote:Let's look at the "feat" in question shall we:


"Feat" in emphatic quotation marks...? 

Well yeah, that's what we tend to call said acts...


DC77 wrote:It's the emotional overload that's causing Jacen so much strain, not the force energy required to create/hold the link itself.


Interesting.  

When just a few weeks ago it was : 


DC77 wrote:locating specific individuals on a planet with billions of inhabitants, that he isn't even on, that exhausts him


I am wondering where the next the goal post will shift to.. or if you'll just accept the truth that :

 


the raw energy of the battle link with his commanders, built up and discharged into the minds of the Fondorian shield technicians, hadn’t yet returned


Legacy of the Force VIII - Revelation.



Caedus is depleted in more than just emotions.  The loss of Force energy is causing the strain.  We know this because he's limited in force power directly afterwards.   In the words of Scotty McCreery - wrong again.  Third excuse time's a charm?


Dc77 wrote:Jacen's aim was to heighten their aggression, and he ended up filling each commander with "white hot rage" which then was funnelled back through him.  

Indeed.  

And I have reason to suspect this wasn't an accident - rather the result he intended - accumulating from that first step :




He could no longer pick out the individual crew and their stations around him in the Anakin Solo, just a complex tapestry of emotions, and that was the state of near blindness that he needed to push his way into the minds of strangers many kilometers away on the planet beneath.


Legacy of the Force VIII - Revelation.




The answer is laid bare for us to see.  The energy he deliberately charges up - using the raw emotions of his hundred commanders - is "needed" for him to telepathically influence the team Fondorian technicians below.  This is the only palpable conclusion, because if the feat were possible in a normal state than he'd simply break off the furious battle-link - resolving the issue of "emotional overload" and then influence the technicians off the back of his own latent power... without being exhausted in the act.  Expending reserves that would clearly have been desirable to him.  

So, not only is Caedus fatigued from TP'ing a "control room of technicians"... he also needed to be in an amplified state just to get there...  

When you ruminate on the implications, it doesn't exactly bode well for one championing Caedus amid the hordes of dissenting "loweballers".  

Rather the "lowballers" simply didn't read LOTF with one hand, while the other was stroking something in their pants.  Sound familiar, DarthCaedus77 ?


DC77 wrote:The droids were a mortal threat to his son sure, 


Indeed.


DC77 wrote:but not to the same degree as Jacen.

The droids in question were actually attacking his son, Jacen wasn't 


DC77 wrote:Moreover, Jacen was the objective

Correction.  Allana, Jacen's daughter, was the objective.  

Rescuing her from aboard the Anakin Solo while Caedus was distracted being the primary goal.  

Capturing Jacen was secondary at best.  


it makes sense that Luke would apply far more power when dealing with his Sith lord, extremely powerful nephew, who is what they're there to capture, as opposed to a few fodder YVH Droids.


Ok...  If Luke wanted to apply far more power when dealing with Caedus - a Sith Lord  - why didn't he just apply a little bit of that power to destroy the "fodder YVH droids" standing between them.  Droids - who by the way - are just robotic automations with killing intent but no human feelings as oppose to a fleshy nephew. 

The theme is that Luke holds back his power in almost every situation.  Why on earth would he apply a larger fraction of that power to oneshot Caedus - like he actually has done before and after this - but not be willing to expend smaller reserves to disable the droids in question? 

By your standard, he didn't therefore, he couldn't.  

By my standard - and one supported by further musings in the lore - he didn't, but could have.  Which represents the ethos he operated under at that current time.  And of course, Jacen wasn't the main objective in that confrontation.  No reason to assume he's applying different standards.  


Anyway, regarding the comparison between Jacen and some "fodder YVH droids" : 



The bridge doors opened and they marched in, a double-column, eight YVH combat droids in all.  [..]


Caedus didn’t think these measures would stop the Jedi. But they might whittle down the numbers of Jedi. [..]


They had to. Jacen could defeat his mother or Ben without trouble; Saba, with difficulty.  Saba plus Luke would be impossible odds. One of the Masters had to fall if Caedus was to survive this day.




Legacy of the Force VII - Fury




... the text is laid bare for us to see.  

Caedus doesn't have a snowballs chance against Luke & Saba and he'd have difficulty against Saba himself...  But he's in luck!  With the aid of some stationed YVH droids, he's found the great equaliser!  

They can take one of the masters out for him.  Something he, against the weakest of the two (Saba) would struggle with alone.  In other words, the group of "fodder YVH droids" in question make an equal (or greater) part of the team consisting of themselves and Caedus.  Obviously that has bad implications for someone dedicated to supporting a sith Lord known for being overrated in the previous meta.  A nice clarification for the rest of us, who put Jacen where he truly belongs.  


DC77 wrote:Moreover we've seen that Luke tends to hold back even in insane situations, 


indeed.


however, as evidenced by the following book, he doesn't do that with Jacen.


Which is true for the following book - where Luke breaches Jacen's active defences - and not this one... where he doesn't. 

 P.S - Luke has jobbed against the same opponent in other books only to destroy them later...  Jacen isn't a special exemption. 


DC77 wrote:Saba was injured because she got tossed by Jacen's TK into one of the explosives, which actually lends credibility to my point, that Jacen, the only one too subdue a member of the group, is an infinitely greater threat than the YVH Droids.


It lends credibility to my point as he is only able to subdue one of the members because of the exploding droid.   

Why is the droid exploding of course?  It's only because Ben is employing the risky (deemed suicidal by Jacen) tactic of planting their own explosions on them.  

So this isn't a feat off his own back... once again, it's his subversive tactics along with the potency of droid weaponry gaining him a point.  

Not proof that he's an "infinitely" a greater threat than the YVH droids in question, because without them stalling the team or the existence of their grenades, he wouldn't have achieved headway 

Saba of course, wouldn't have been injured at all if Luke just Punk'd the droids with gesture Dark Empire style instead of risking her injury.  According to you, that means he couldn't do it.  But really, it just means he's holding back as per the norm.  And as per the norm, Jacen isn't an exception because you really like him. 


DC77 wrote:
Except I'm not arguing that the Luke who fought Abeloth can't one shot Jacen, but that the Luke who's drawing on greater power than he ever has in Jacen's presence, is incapable of one shotting him.


Well, then it's a shame that the Luke that drew on greater power than he ever has in Jacen's presence did one-shot him that time.


DC77 wrote:
The Mando caught Jacen off guard and grabbed onto his ankle before he had a chance to defend himself, how is that not a cheap shot?


Fighting Sith Lords according to DC77 : grab them by the ankle, they'll be defenceless! 


DC77 wrote:Of course he's not against killing his enemies


Indeed.


is goal was to help Tahiri escape, which she did. Why should an already exhausted Jacen waste more energy breaking Jaina's attempts to resist the choke, when he's already accomplished his objective?



Because killing Meetra would have been helpful, as he didn't accomplish his goal yet - the mando's were still pursuing him.
He doesn't need to "break Jaina's attempt" for the comparison to stand.  We're comparing him to Luke, without effort, being able to freeze Caedus' chair without the latter being able to budge it an inch no matter how hard he tried.  Luke didn't have to add anything to the TK attempt to Stop Jacen, and he was only using a little bit of his power then anyway.  Which is why I can compare him to an exhausted Jacen, who's a pussy considering how he got in that state - putting him well away from Luke regardless. 


Last edited by Ziggy on September 24th 2019, 5:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
Ziggy
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on September 24th 2019, 5:12 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:I'll wait for Ziggy to post and then respond to both of you at once.

And If you do respond, don't make false promises (like the other DC) about when it's gonna happen. 

And If you respond weeks later, please notify me so I don't have to stumble on the thread by accident while browsing.
Sjuttiosju
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on September 24th 2019, 6:42 pm
Yeah, it's not as if I tagged you or anything. I'll respond, no clue when though.
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