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Dolph
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Rank these Luke gaps Empty How large are the gaps between Luke

on November 24th 2019, 5:39 am
RotJ Luke to DE Luke
DE Luke to Vong War Luke
Vong War Luke to LotF Luke

Provide reasoning and evidence
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 24th 2019, 5:44 am
i think there is a big gap from ROTJ to start of DE, and a big gap between start of DE to end of DE luke. i dont think there is a big gap between DE and vong war luke, its pretty average, imo. i think the gap from vong war to LOTF is bigger than the previous gap
Dolph
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on November 24th 2019, 5:45 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:i think there is a big gap from ROTJ to start of DE, and a big gap between start of DE to end of DE luke. i dont think there is a big gap between DE and vong war luke, its pretty average, imo. i think the gap from vong war to LOTF is bigger than the previous gap
It says provide evidence
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 24th 2019, 6:59 am
idk about evidence, but luke went from fighting lightsider vader and winning, to beating someone a league or two above ROTJ sheev, so the gap is quite huge, obviously. idk much about his later incarnations, hence the lack of 'evidence'
MasterCilghal
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on November 24th 2019, 1:07 pm
ROTJ to DE: quite significant, Luke has various growth quotes, and Palpatine at the beginning of the comic is actually impressed by just how Much Luke has grown. Though at this point he is still below the top tiers, as we see him being clearly inferior to Gethzerion and C’baoth. 
DE to Vong war: absolutely enormous, I would say probably the biggest power growth in SW legends. His power was stated to have “redoubled” after his experiences with the emperor, he has more growth quotes (see JA, for example) and by the Thrawn Duology he is stated to have gained tremendous power. By the beginning of the vong war, Luke is noted as being beyond powerful, while at the end of the war he is the “height” of his powers (per the Jedi academy training manual). 
Vong war to LOTF: it’s difficult to determine whether a power growth is present or not. I believe that what changes is Luke’s willingness to use that power rather than his actual power, as seen against Caedus.

Spoiler:
to the twins: please do not quote me Rank these Luke gaps 1019854026
HeartoftheForce
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on November 24th 2019, 2:08 pm
RotJ to DE?

Very minimal. While Luke had attained more control over his abilities at least by Palps word and his own summation he was still below Vader. And by the audio drama + other quotes note Sedriss, Vader's confirmed inferior, potentially winning if not for Ood's interference. Which doesn't speak to Luke being very far past Vader if at all. 

DE to Vong? Huge jump noted to be at the height of powers etc etc. Of course this is Luke we're talking about here. He uses them very inconsistently and sparsely. So while he has on demand access to the most power in theory, in practice he is not always above his previous incarnations. 

I haven't actually seen proof of Luke growing from Vong to LotF. If there is I'd love to see it.
Jake
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on November 24th 2019, 3:32 pm
“He’s growing strong Han, really strong.” - Lando Calrissian

Star Wars: Dark Empire

“Oh Leia, you don’t understand the power I’ve achieved since our father died.” - Luke Skywalker

Star Wars: Dark Empire

“You’ve grown very strong in the Force since last we met… But then so have I!” - Reborn Emperor

Star Wars: Dark Empire 

“I see you have grown wise in the ways of the Force. You have achieved control. You are no longer the impulsive youth at war with your own anger.” - Reborn Emperor

Star Wars: Dark Empire

Luke is far more powerful, wise, and controlled than he was when he last faced the Emperor. Jedi Academy Luke is also far more powerful than his Return of the Jedi self, and emerged from Dark Empire stronger, with his power redoubled;

To his surprise, Kun recognises the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force.

Star Wars: Jedi Academy Sourcebook

“I myself have touched the dark side and come through stronger and more wary of its powers than ever before. I agree there is a risk, but I cannot believe the New Republic will be safer without a new force of Jedi."

Star Wars: Jedi Academy - Jedi Search

When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled.

Star Wars: I, Jedi

The idea that his growth is "minimal" makes no sense at all lol.

[hideedit]
HeartoftheForce
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on November 24th 2019, 3:42 pm
Quote 1: Why should Lando's word mean jack?

Quote 2: Luke boasting. If you to take Luke's word he's always been sub Vader up to this point to the extent that he think's daddy can oneshot him. 

Quote 3: The very same Emperor states Luke is still below Vader. 

Quote 4: Again same emperor that says Luke still isn't as strong as Vader. + Only referring to him gaining better control. Not outright power growth. 

I already said Luke gets massive growth after DE. So I don't even know why you bothered with the second half of that.
The Ellimist
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on November 24th 2019, 5:29 pm
So in terms of overall tone and feel (not necessarily precise vs. debating scaling):

RotJ Luke is depicted as a prodigious and impressive Jedi, but still a relative novice who can be outmatched by more skilled masters. He somehow matches RotJ Vader and has multiple sources indicating that he is Vader's equal, but that doesn't seem to be his consistent power level (a common theme surrounding Luke). Basically he's in theory a mid-tier 8 with some blind spots (e.g. no trained defense vs. lightning) who more consistently fights like a low-tier 7.

DE Luke has multiple quotes putting him as far superior to his RotJ incarnation. He should therefore be far above RotJ Vader, and indeed by the end of DE he with mild battle meditation is above to defeat Palpatine in a duel. That's enough to put him at least around a mid-tier 9 on the level of Yoda/RotS Sidious. But once again, he doesn't seem to consistently fight around this level against more random foes. Instead, if you take JA as an example he is depicted as a wise and powerful Jedi master with impressive feats who nonetheless can be challenged and outmatched by particularly powerful but still sub-Yoda foes or dedicated B-team tier foes in the right context. So while when serious he's mid-tier 9, when he's lax he's like a high tier 8 (who sometimes punches lower than that, but I mean more consistently). This is a pretty significant jump from RotJ - I think if Luke were to fight his RotJ self, he'd stomp him pretty thoroughly.  

NJO is where Luke undergoes a clear transition in depiction where he's no longer as "touchable" - while he still gets challenged by randoms more than he should, you don't see anyone really matching or surpassing him except for outliers like Sekot and Nyax. After Nyax, nobody is depicted as Luke's peer or superior until Abeloth. By TUF Luke has embraced more of his raw power and finally unleashes it, perhaps as a tier 10. So the difference between TUF Luke and EoDE Luke is pretty massive; not sure if it's more or less than RotJ -> EoDE (probably more).

From NJO to LotF there are vs. debating scaling chains you can make showing large gaps; from the context of general feel, Luke's power growth isn't as apparent. By TUF he's already established in the eyes of even casual EU fans as the most powerful Jedi ever, so it's not like by LotF he's going around oneshotting everyone. While he still seems to scale himself up and down to competition, he's quite solidly not considered someone for any villain to surpass or equal in a fair fight until Abeloth.
Jake
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on November 24th 2019, 6:30 pm
@Greysentinel365 Quote 1: Why should Lando's word mean jack?

He’s been in the presence of, and witnessed earlier versions of Luke fight, and sees him in action again later. If Lando didn’t have some idea of Luke’s abilities before and after this point, he wouldn’t have said anything about growth at all. Let's choose;

1. Lando sees and feels that Luke is growing really strong, and says so. Or;
2. Lando doesn’t have any idea of the power Luke wields up until he downs the AT-AT, nor does he have any idea of Luke’s power afterwards, but still tells Han that he’s growing really strong. 

Quote 2: Luke boasting. If you to take Luke's word he's always been sub Vader up to this point to the extent that he think's daddy can oneshot him. 

Difference here being that Luke’s growth isn't contradicted by a myriad of other quotes, supported in fact, unlike the idea that Vader could have just one-shotted him whenever he pleased (contradicted by Lucas). Luke says this under his breath after Leia has left, so he’s boasting to an audience of one... himself. Why would Luke be boasting if his power had only undergone a mere minimal, next-to-nothing increase? Let's choose;

1. Luke does in fact feel as if his power has grown much stronger, and says so. Or;
2. Luke is boasting about a virtually-non-existent power increase, to himself.

Quote 3: The very same Emperor states Luke is still below Vader. 
Quote 4: Again same emperor that says Luke still isn't as strong as Vader. + Only referring to him gaining better control. Not outright power growth. 

“You’ve grown very strong in the Force since last we met… But then so have I!” 

The Emperor flatly states that Luke has grown very strong since Return of the Jedi. Either Sidious didn’t view the earlier Luke as an equal to Vader (again contradicted by George), or what’s (far) more likely; Sidious is goading Luke with promises of great power, playing off his inflated view of Vader’s abilities/using the most prominent dark sider of the time to swing Luke further to the dark side.

I already said Luke gets massive growth after DE. So I don't even know why you bothered with the second half of that. 

Because your idea banks on Luke, a young man with ridiculous potential, not increasing in Force power as his skill, mastery, and knowledge skyrockets for six years, but then suddenly after Dark Empire, experiencing mega growth with each passing year. Everything supports Luke growing massively from ROTJ to DE. Lando’s statement, Luke’s musing, and the Emperor’s words hold true.

Luke is equal to Vader in Return of the Jedi, growing far stronger up to Dark Empire. Sidious, Lando, and Luke all say this. Instead of arguing something so ridiculous as no growth for over half a decade, and going against numerous quotes, a far more sensible view is to look at the Vader statements as another one of the Emperor's manipulations, attempting to get Luke to embrace the dark side even more. We always look for the simplest, most likely explanations, and what you pose here has unending contradictions and makes no sense at all.

[hideedit]


Last edited by Jake on November 24th 2019, 9:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
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on November 24th 2019, 6:41 pm
@Greysentinel365 Fact File 120 states Luke had grown "immensely more powerful" since Endor when dueling the Emperor on Byss.

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on November 25th 2019, 2:47 am
Jake greydollling.
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on November 25th 2019, 3:05 am
Rank these Luke gaps Giphy
The Ellimist
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on February 1st 2020, 2:05 pm
(edit: this was a merged OP, not ranked in order)
ESB - RotJ
RotJ - EoDE
EoDE - BoNJO
BoNJO - TUF
TUF - FotJ


Last edited by The Ellimist on February 1st 2020, 9:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
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on February 1st 2020, 3:23 pm
Merged the two threads.
MasterCilghal
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on February 1st 2020, 3:29 pm
I mean, the topic isn’t exactly the same but it’s similar enough to merge the two threads.
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on February 1st 2020, 3:41 pm
Luke has so many insane growth spurts that it's probably easier to talk about times where he didn't seem to grow much, which I guess is between the end of DE and TUF? I'm aware he grew, and noticeably, between this long stretch of time, but his growth:

During the OT

Leading up to, during and by the end of DE

and when he cuts loose in TUF

are definitely standouts as far as a power spike. Some of it psychological, some of it from Force knowledge, some of it from sheer power.
The Ellimist
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on February 1st 2020, 9:27 pm
In terms of holistics (whether you value that or not), DE ->EoTUF marks the biggest transition in the way in which Luke's power is portrayed (or indeed, to earlier than TUF). Pre-NJO, Luke was consistently shown being weaker than random characters (EoDE is like a really peak display of power that he doesn't replicate for a long time). Within NJO the only characters depicted as stronger than Luke are Nyax and Zonama Sekot. Then after TUF you basically don't get anyone being portrayed as stronger than him until Abeloth (DN implies that UnuThul is stronger than Luke until essentially revealing that Luke was above even that). Somewhere within NJO we get the aura of Luke realizing his potential - not necessarily in terms of reaching 100%, but in terms of becoming the most powerful Jedi ever. This arguably coincides with the PT and the Chosen One prophecy making Luke inherit that position potential-wise, and also making it less common to write in random characters implied to be DE Sidious level.

Indeed, back when vs. debating involved fewer scaling chains, a lot of people considered TUF or DN to be Luke's prime.

Now in a more vs. debating scaling context, you can make the case that TUF -> FotJ is where the most obvious chains happen, or maybe RotJ -> EoDE via Vader to DE Sidious. EoDE -> TUF is then actually less of an obvious scaling chain because there aren't as many markers in-between.

From TUF -> FotJ you can construct this chain: SSJ FotJ Luke >>>> FotJ Luke >= LotF Invincible (the amount that we see) Luke >> Revelation Luke >> Inferno Luke >> TUF Luke

That being based largely on Caedus's reactions to Luke's power.

TUF is also where Luke has an epiphany with regards to his fear of abusing the dark side (albeit one based on a view of the Force that he eventually abandons), LotF is the point where Luke doesn't mope as much about that except in specific situations like Mara's death, and by FotJ that arc appears to have been more or less closed.
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on February 1st 2020, 9:39 pm
RotJ Luke to DE Luke=not that much of a significant change mainly becuase he need a amp to defeat the emperor
DE Luke to Vong War Luke=a whole more powerful than ever before the most powerful jedi of his era quotes prove that 
Vong War Luke to LotF Luke=likely superior to vong luke
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on February 2nd 2020, 1:41 am
Well if we judge non force users opinions like Lando. Bail organa who knows Yoda has this to say:

"Vader, the emperors new pet, he seems powerful almost beyond belief."

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