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The Ellimist
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August 30th 2019, 4:55 am
Revan vs. SWTOR Vitiate
Dooku vs. RotS Yoda
IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku
Caedus vs. Luke
Freedon Nadd vs. Exar Kun
Exar Kun vs. SF Malak
Outlander vs. Valkorion
Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious
DE Luke vs. TUF Luke
TUF Luke vs. FotJ Luke
Ventress vs. Dooku
Bane vs. Ramage
Vitiate vs. Valkorion
pre-Nathema Vitiate vs. novel Vitiate
RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious
S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin
Apoc Krayt vs. Krayt Reborn
PoD bane vs. DoE Bane
Sirak vs. Kas'im
TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon
Act I HoT vs. Act III HoT
Act III HoT vs. The Outlander
Arcann vs. Vaylin
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August 30th 2019, 10:44 am
Dooku vs. RotS Yoda - Yoda solidly superior, closer than AotC Dooku vs Yoda - I don't subscribe to the idea of Yoda improving over the course of the war. 

IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku - Pretty much what we saw. Kenobi can stonewall him all day in defense, but Dooku hard counters his offense and can take advantage of Soresu's passiveness to recharge his energy reserves and ensure he never gasses. Overall they're similar enough in power and stats but Dooku has the style advantage to win for the majority. 


Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious - Sidious is marginally superior. I don't actually think Sidious grew anymore in power after TPM. The quote from the complete encyclopedia that says he grew in power can easily be interpreted as political power, which would make more thematic sense as that is the actual power he used to topple the Jedi and the Senate, not his individual prowess. 


Ventress vs. Dooku - Dooku is solidly superior. Y:DR is pretty close to RotS and while I don't think he can ragdoll her on a whim when combat-ready, the passage makes it very clear they ain't close. 


S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin - RotS Anakin is substantially superior. Dooku was beating him in S6, whereas Anakin held the edge when not encumbered by Obi-Wan's presence in any version of RotS. 



PoD bane vs. DoE Bane - Pretty large gap. RoT Bane is the most powerful IMO but even hindered DoE Bane has better showings than amped PoD Bane. Force suppressed DoE Bane could kill fodder instantly with lightning when his Ruusan amped PoD counterpart could not. 



Sirak vs. Kas'im - Holding back Kas'im is clearly superior to a version of Bane capable of toying with Sirak and beating him in little more than one exchange. Allout Kas'im one-shots. 



TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon - Decent, not huge. It's a longer and even more contested fight than The Threat Within.
The Adventurous Jedi
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August 30th 2019, 11:02 am
I'm going to use a number system to make this easier:

1. They might as well be equals. Very slight edge to one of them.

2. Close but one is clearly decisively better.

3. There is a decent gap between them but definitely not a massive one.

4. A massive gap.

5. A one-shot gap.

Revan vs. SWTOR Vitiate - 2.

Dooku vs. RotS Yoda - 3.

IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku - 3 or 4.

Caedus vs. Luke - 5.

Freedon Nadd vs. Exar Kun - Idk.

Exar Kun vs. SF Malak - 3.

Outlander vs. Valkorion - 5.

Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious - 3 or 4.

DE Luke vs. TUF Luke - Idk.

TUF Luke vs. FotJ Luke - Idk.

Ventress vs. Dooku - 4 or 5.

Bane vs. Ramage - 3.

Vitiate vs. Valkorion - 4.

pre-Nathema Vitiate vs. novel Vitiate - 4.

RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious - 5.

S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin - 3.

Apoc Krayt vs. Krayt Reborn - 3.

PoD bane vs. DoE Bane - 4.

Sirak vs. Kas'im - 4.

TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon - 3.

Act I HoT vs. Act III HoT - 4.

Act III HoT vs. The Outlander - 5.

Arcann vs. Vaylin - 5.


Last edited by NotAA3 on August 30th 2019, 1:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
BreakofDawn
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August 30th 2019, 11:05 am
Stealing HP’s number system:

Revan vs. SWTOR Vitiate - 2.
Dooku vs. RotS Yoda - 2 or 3.
IH Obi Wan vs. Dooku - 1 in sabers, 3 in the Force.
Caedus vs. Luke - 5.
Freedon Nadd vs. Exar Kun - No idea.
Exar Kun vs. SF Malak - No idea.
Outlander vs. Valkorion - 4 or 5. Might close in time.
Plagueis vs. RotS Sidious - 4.
DE Luke vs. TUF Luke - No clue.
TUF Luke vs. FotJ Luke - No clue.
Ventress vs. Dooku - 3 in raw power, 5 in all-out.
Bane vs. Ramage - No clue.
Vitiate vs. Valkorion - 4.
pre-Nathema Vitiate vs. novel Vitiate - 4 or 5. Literally a planet & 8,000 Sith gap.
RotJ Vader vs. RotJ Sidious - 3 or 4, not sure.
S6 Anakin vs. RotS Anakin - 1 or 2. Both are after Ahsoka left so both grew massively.
Apoc Krayt vs. Krayt Reborn - No clue.
PoD bane vs. DoE Bane - 2.
Sirak vs. Kas'im - No clue.
TPM Obi Wan vs. Qui-Gon - 2 or 3.
Act I HoT vs. Act III HoT - 4. Went from being decked by a Flesh Raider to dedeating an Imperial guard.
Act III HoT vs. The Outlander - 5.
Arcann vs. Vaylin - 5.
The Reborn Emperor
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August 30th 2019, 1:26 pm
TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi aren't close at all.
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August 30th 2019, 2:46 pm
They are
The Ellimist
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August 30th 2019, 4:02 pm
NotAA3 wrote:Caedus vs. Luke - 5.
@BreakofDawn wrote:Caedus vs. Luke - 5.

One-shot range? Luke and pre-prime Caedus fought and while Caedus lost, he certainly wasn't one-shotted. While it's true that Luke pinned him to a chair that other time, 1) he caught him by surprise, 2) this wasn't prime Caedus.

I suppose you could say that Luke wasn't at his full power in the duel, but that's not certain. He was certainly angry with Caedus and trying to kill him, and at times in the fight Ben was in danger - you could say that his mind was clouded so soon after Mara's death or that he had an injured knee, but I'm not sure if that means he wasn't using something close to his "full power", or at least his full "baseline" power.

I guess if we're talking about the Luke that opened himself fully to the Force against Abeloth, yeah he could one-shot Caedus.
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August 30th 2019, 4:59 pm
Meatpants wrote:TPM Qui-Gon and Kenobi aren't close at all.
they are close enough .
qui-gon would win but not without effort .
by this adopted scale they are at best 2 points apart .
given this is TPM kenobi of course .
if this was RoTS kenobi than he is solidly above qui-gon .


Last edited by dark_globe on August 31st 2019, 12:44 am; edited 3 times in total
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August 30th 2019, 6:06 pm
Revan’s above SWTOR Vitiate, just not Valk.
Praxis
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August 30th 2019, 6:15 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Revan’s above SWTOR Vitiate

Why?
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August 30th 2019, 7:33 pm
Considering he’s solidly above the HoT, who in SoR is far above his act III self, who was able to defeat the voice, he has some scaling from there. Revan scales above spirit Vitiate pretty convincingly.

On second thought, which SWTOR Vitiate is this?
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August 30th 2019, 8:38 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Considering he’s solidly above the HoT, who in SoR is far above his act III self, who was able to defeat the voice, he has some scaling from there. Revan scales above spirit Vitiate pretty convincingly.

On second thought, which SWTOR Vitiate is this?

The Voice was ridiculously weakened.
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August 30th 2019, 10:01 pm
What did SWTOR Vitiate actually ever do? Other than Ziost, which Revan scales above.
BreakofDawn
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August 30th 2019, 10:14 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:What did SWTOR Vitiate actually ever do? Other than Ziost, which Revan scales above.

Off the top of my head:

One-shot the act 2 HoT, Master Braga and the others.
Created monoliths when not even at full power, the weakest of which was barely beaten by the act 3 HoT and which are described as being nearly invincible.
Brought down the Dark Temple at a fraction of his full power and while dying.
Being confirmed by numerous sources, including light side Revan, to be > or >> SoR Revan at his weakest.
A fraction of his power helped to keep the First Son and the other Children of the Emperor hidden for decades.
Telepathically dominating KOTOR Revan & Malak as well as act 2 HoT for a considerable amount of time.

I still have no idea how Revan scales above Ziost.
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August 31st 2019, 4:54 am
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@The Ellimist wrote:One-shot range? Luke and pre-prime Caedus fought and while Caedus lost, he certainly wasn't one-shotted. While it's true that Luke pinned him to a chair that other time, 1) he caught him by surprise, 2) this wasn't prime Caedus.

I suppose you could say that Luke wasn't at his full power in the duel, but that's not certain. He was certainly angry with Caedus and trying to kill him, and at times in the fight Ben was in danger - you could say that his mind was clouded so soon after Mara's death or that he had an injured knee, but I'm not sure if that means he wasn't using something close to his "full power", or at least his full "baseline" power.

I guess if we're talking about the Luke that opened himself fully to the Force against Abeloth, yeah he could one-shot Caedus.

I'd say that Luke at his full "baseline" power could indeed one-shot prime (whatever that is) Caedus.  

You don't have to take my opinion on the matter for granted, this happened in the series... twice, with the sloppy brawl they had being the outlier, not the other way around. 

You're putting too much stock in the surprise element of Caedus' humiliation when the emphasis is on Luke's lack of effort to keep him pinned to that chair.  Caedus was helpless.  Attempting to free himself like an engine thruster "accelerating to light-speed with a faulty inertial compressor".  Not even able to move an inch, while Luke isn't even using a little bit of his full power to keep him there.  Compare that to Jacen mentally-assaulting Aurra Sing in Tempest (written by the same author) - he paralysed her with a mental attack, surprising her, but it required him to fully embrace his dark emotions and use "all his concentration" to bind her.

If that's not enough Luke broke Jacen's active TK barrier in Revelations.  Jacen tried to block him in the force, but was lifted up and smashed into a ship console, breaking a few ribs.  Jacen being taken off guard certainly wasn't an excuse there. 

As for why Luke would have possibly been hindered in the brawl you mentioned: 

Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…


Excerpt From: Aaron Allston. “Fury.”

The memory of the duel hinders force concentration... but that wouldn't preclude; rather it enforces, the idea of experiencing Jacen - someone he once loved like a second son - torturing Ben, doing the same thing to him mentally; preventing him from using his full "baseline" power.  You rightly point out that Luke is angry at Jacen, fearful for Bens safety.  But none of that matters if Luke isn't using that anger and fear to enhance his force powers... which is what using the darkside is.  In fact, in line with countless sources on the matter, he would probably be refraining from doing exactly that.  Meaning that his mental state at the time isn't conducive of an "emotional amp" rather an emotional hindrance to his overall ability to channel the force.  

You add the fact that Jacen exploited his injured ribs, and was performing much better in that duel after using a Vong entrapment to poison Luke, and we get further impediments preventing Luke from channelling his full power. Luke can literally go from godlike to Cilghal tier if he's emotionally and physically hindered. He even says so himself. 


This better explains why he can pin Caedus to a chair with no effort while relatively calm, compared to the sloppy duel above where he's emotionally distraught, rather than the element of surprise separating these two instances, in my opinion.


Last edited by Ziggy on August 31st 2019, 5:55 am; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
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August 31st 2019, 5:04 am
@Ziggy wrote:Luke can literally go from godlike to Cilghal tier if he's emotionally and physically hindered. He even says so himself. 
You mean, still godlike?

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The Ellimist
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August 31st 2019, 5:54 am
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@Ziggy wrote:I'd say that Luke at his full "baseline" power could indeed one-shot prime (whatever that is) Caedus. 

Well, Luke was amping Jaina in Invincible to successfully trick Caedus into thinking it was Luke. Caedus didn't notice Luke being unusually weak, so it seems as though to his eye, that was Luke's power - and he was able to fight her and even gain the upper hand (albeit mainly by outmaneuvering and out-skilling Jaina, who had the clear power advantage).

Does Caedus have a good gauge of how powerful Luke should be? It's not clear. He's seen Luke in TUF, he knows Luke beat UnuThul in DN, and he's known Luke for a very long time; then again, he was surprised by Luke's ability to pin him to a chair in Inferno, surprised by his power in Revelation, and oblivious to the potency of his illusions in Invincible, by which he seemed to have gotten quite mentally unstable.

It's possible that Luke wasn't amping Jaina completely (why wouldn't he though? Perhaps he can't too much, or else the point of not going after Caedus personally becomes moot), or that Jaina is just not masterful enough to use the power (but Caedus didn't seem to notice that).

You don't have to take my opinion on the matter for granted, this happened in the series... twice, with the sloppy brawl they had being the outlier, not the other way around. 

You're putting too much stock in the surprise element of Caedus' humiliation when the emphasis is on Luke's lack of effort to keep him pinned to that chair.  Caedus was helpless.  Attempting to free himself like an engine thruster "accelerating to light-speed with a faulty inertial compressor".  Not even able to move an inch, while Luke isn't even using a little bit of his full power to keep him there.  Compare that to Jacen mentally-assaulting Aurra Sing in Tempest (written by the same author) - he paralysed her with a mental attack, surprising her, but it required to fully embrace his dark emotions and use "all his concentration" to bind her.

It's absolutely an impressive feat on Luke's part, and demonstrates a sizable disparity in Force power. But if Luke were capable of doing that to a prepared Jacen, why didn't he just do that in their fight? I guess you'd say that he was hindered and not thinking clearly, which may be true. But while the surprise element wasn't the focus of Jacen's commentary, it was still a factor. It's true that Luke was not using any apparent effort though, so even if Jacen had a passive barrier up, that may just require Luke to exert slightly more effort.

I guess that instead of charging at Jacen in the fight, Luke could've just replicated his chair-pinning feat given that Jacen also wasn't prepared; and when he hit him with the Force wave, he could've just kept him pinned. So Luke clearly wasn't fighting very tactically soundly in the fight - it's possible that the two are closer in sabers (though still pretty far apart) but not close at all in Force power, and Luke was just too eager to leap into the former.

If that's not enough Luke broke Jacen's active TK barrier in Revelations.  Jacen tried to block him in the force, but was lifted up and smashed into a ship console, breaking a few ribs.  Jacen being taken off guard certainly wasn't an excuse there. 

Nitpick: Luke seems to have TK'd the chair, not Jacen directly. But it definitely indicates a large disparity in Force power.

As for why Luke would have possibly been hindered in the brawl you mentioned: 

Yoda had told Luke that electrical shocks, applied at different intensities and at irregular but frequent intervals, would prevent a Jedi from concentrating, from channeling the Force. They could render a Jedi helpless.

But Yoda had never told Luke that emotional shocks could do the same thing.

They could. And just as no amount of self-control would allow a Jedi to ignore the effects of electrical shocks on his body, neither could self-control keep Luke safely out of his memories. Every few moments a memory, freshly applied like a current-bearing wire on his skin, would yank him out of the here and now and propel him into the recent past.

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing—torturing—Luke’s only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he’d once loved…


Excerpt From: Aaron Allston. “Fury.”

The memory of the duel hinders force concentration... but that wouldn't preclude; rather it enforces, the idea of experiencing Jacen - someone he once loved like a second son - torturing Ben, doing the same thing to him mentally; preventing him from using his full "baseline" power.  You rightly point out that Luke is angry at Jacen, fearful for Bens safety.  But none of that matters if Luke isn't using that anger and fear to enhance his force powers... which is what using the darkside is.  In fact, in line with countless sources on the matter, he would probably be refraining from doing exactly that.  Meaning that his mental state at the time isn't conducive of an "emotional amp" rather an emotional hindrance to his overall ability to channel the force.  

I've been looking for that quote actually. Cool - added to the blog entry I just made on the fight.

I agree that there's good evidence for Luke being hindered in the fight, but I'm not sure if the jump to unhindered Luke is enough to put Caedus in "oneshot" territory. The Revelation Force duel doesn't really suggest a "oneshot" gap (though it doesn't rule it out) - the Inferno chair pinning does grant that distinct possibility, but not conclusively against a prepared Jacen.

I would agree that there's a distinct possibility Luke can ragdoll Caedus; the Jaina fight is my main reservation.
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August 31st 2019, 12:00 pm
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Elm wrote:I would agree that there's a distinct possibility Luke can ragdoll Caedus; the Jaina fight is my main reservation.

I'm glad we agreed on the relevant points, as for the questions you introduced regarding him vs amped Jaina - we know that Jacen is comparing that duel to the brawl with Luke aboard The Anakin Solo and not any other instance : 


The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail

LOTF : Invincible


If you admit that : 


Elm wrote:there's good evidence for Luke being hindered in that fight


Then there is no contention here. 

If Caedus' is judging Luke on that fight then we can rule out Jaina being amped to her Uncles "baseline" full power with just battle meditation alone.  Is such a thing even possible?  It seems unlikely.  So Jacen's Tk-based humiliations during Inferno and Revelations are probably more indicative of the true level of disparity between them, rather than the brawl on Anakin Solo and the battle with Jaina. 

Also Elm :

Elm wrote:Nitpick: Luke seems to have TK'd the chair, not Jacen directly.

The text doesn't seem to indicate that Luke circumvented his TK barrier by manipulating something other than Jacen himself.  "He tried to block Luke through the Force, but then got an idea of how much power he could muster" - indicates he pierced the barrier entirely and could ragdoll Jacen - and his chair - sending him into a console.  If you imagine Force barrier as a bubble around the caster, it would make sense that Jacen was protecting himself and the thing he was immediately sitting on.  In fact, some of the artwork depicts this : 

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August 31st 2019, 3:39 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:I still have no idea how Revan scales above Ziost.

I think this notion stems from the Darth Vader (Az) vs. Revan (Ant) debate where Ant constructs a scaling chain that puts Revan above Ziost Vitiate. I don't agree with it however.
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September 1st 2019, 5:08 am
@Ziggy wrote:I'm glad we agreed on the relevant points, as for the questions you introduced regarding him vs amped Jaina - we know that Jacen is comparing that duel to the brawl with Luke aboard The Anakin Solo and not any other instance : 

That's true. It's difficult to imagine that Jacen is that ignorant of Luke's power level given how long he's fought with/against him though. He saw Luke in TUF and throughout NJO, he knows Luke defeated UnuThul, he experienced Luke Force dominating him twice, etc. Yet on more than one occasion in LotF, he regards Luke as a superior, but one that he could put up a strong fight against. I guess Jacen could just be vastly overestimating himself / underestimating Luke, given that Jaina notes she doesn't have an inkling of Luke's full power and Jacen seems astonished by Luke's feats in LotF.

The thing is that we're creating an interpretation (likely one we're biased toward) that is plausible, but not necessarily definitely the right one over the alternative.

Pro-Caedus Interpretation:

"Pre-prime Caedus took on a Luke that was trying to kill him and protect his son and didn't get ragdolled. He then later took on a Jaina who was amped to appear to be Luke and did even better than the first time. Even if Luke was hindered, that does not mean he dropped down the equivalent of going from Sidious to Maul (to exaggerate). Combatants' abilities do vary by mental state, but if Luke really fell orders of magnitude in combat ability, it would've been mentioned more clearly than a vague allusion - he would've been like "WTF? How am I struggling against someone I can oneshot?". There's a limit to how much mental state alone can explain that unless if it's a really specific situation like being mentally tortured. Jacen was caught by surprise in the chair incident - that Jacen emphasized the ease with which Luke did it doesn't imply that Luke could do it in a combat situation, or else he would have. And shooting his chair forward in the starfighter scene isn't as clear an indication of combat disparity as actual combat - Luke even says that Jacen could retaliate and they'd both be dead."

Is that entirely implausible?
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September 1st 2019, 12:03 pm
@Praxis wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:I still have no idea how Revan scales above Ziost.

I think this notion stems from the Darth Vader (Az) vs. Revan (Ant) debate where Ant constructs a scaling chain that puts Revan above Ziost Vitiate. I don't agree with it however.

@Praxis: I'm working on something for that now.
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September 1st 2019, 12:06 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Praxis wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:I still have no idea how Revan scales above Ziost.

I think this notion stems from the Darth Vader (Az) vs. Revan (Ant) debate where Ant constructs a scaling chain that puts Revan above Ziost Vitiate. I don't agree with it however.

@Praxis: I'm working on something for that now.

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September 2nd 2019, 4:20 pm
@Ziggy: Figured I may as well hop in and throw out a couple things. To make myself clear I don't necessarily believe Luke can't one shot Jacen but I'll advocate for the stance, mainly because I'm curious to see the results.

You don't have to take my opinion on the matter for granted, this happened in the series... twice, with the sloppy brawl they had being the outlier, not the other way around.

Why does the duel in itself have to be an outlier? There's circumstances surrounding Luke's TK assaults that might render them unreliable, in which case it becomes difficult to assert that Luke can "One shot" Jacen and dismiss the duel, as well as other events that substantiate the notion that he's incapable of such a performance.

You're putting too much stock in the surprise element of Caedus' humiliation when the emphasis is on Luke's lack of effort to keep him pinned to that chair. Caedus was helpless.

On the contrary, both are emphasised:

Inferno wrote:While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

I think the statement speaks for itself, both are noted as factors at play.

Compare that to Jacen mentally-assaulting Aurra Sing in Tempest (written by the same author) - he paralysed her with a mental attack, surprising her, but it required him to fully embrace his dark emotions and use "all his concentration" to bind her.

Given this takes place before Jacen's mid LOTF power up I fail to see the relevance.

If that's not enough Luke broke Jacen's active TK barrier in Revelations. Jacen tried to block him in the force, but was lifted up and smashed into a ship console, breaking a few ribs. Jacen being taken off guard certainly wasn't an excuse there.

Luke begins his assault on Jacen's fighter well before Jacen tries to resist IE: he's had significantly more time to ramp up. Comparing the amount of power Luke can charge up in a larger timeframe than a weaker opponent isn't an inherently fair point.

I mostly agree on the points regarding the duel barring this:

You add the fact that Jacen exploited his injured ribs, and was performing much better in that duel after using a Vong entrapment to poison Luke, and we get further impediments preventing Luke from channelling his full power. Luke can literally go from godlike to Cilghal tier if he's emotionally and physically hindered. He even says so himself.

I'm not sure why Jacen utilising a Vong trap, and taking advantage of a pre-existing injury is going to stop Luke from ragdolling him, when Luke had already landed a lightsaber blow and three physical strikes by this time (Which I'm inclined to believe would have a greater impact than a single strike on an old wound and throwing a Vong trap at somebody) and never attempts to use TK later despite the fact that Jacen was in worse shape than he was:

Inferno wrote:Luke had beaten him. Luke had just kept coming despite his injuries. He had inflicted more damage on Caedus than he had suffered himself, and he had even escaped the garrote before Ben struck.

Luke's only successful TK attack comes as a result of him catching Jacen off guard. Regarding the emotional factors at play I agree they're significant but I'm not necessarily sure to what degree. Given Jacen never seems to notice any substantial decrease in Luke's capability however, I see no reason why they should be.

To add to this Luke himself feints, and takes out a YVH droid rather than simply breaching Jacen's defence, despite having an ample opportunity to do so:

Fury wrote:Luke gestured toward Jacen. Jacen raised his lightsaber and his left hand, ready to ward off any attack, but Luke's gesture was a diversion. His exertion in the Force picked up one of the YVH droids and hurtled it backward, against the faltering viewport.

Given Jacen was the objective, and is a far greater threat than a measly droid, one would question why Luke didn't simply "one shot" him. Hint: He can't.

I'm glad we agreed on the relevant points, as for the questions you introduced regarding him vs amped Jaina - we know that Jacen is comparing that duel to the brawl with Luke aboard The Anakin Solo and not any other instance :

Just a quick question: Why should Jacen compare a lightsaber duel with a TK clash? Think about it logically, regarding the outcome of a fight it makes far more sense for Jacen to use the last one as an indicator for the result of this match, as opposed to entirely unrelated sequences where Luke TK's him. This works especially well given Jacen wasn't aware of the negative impacts Luke's emotional state had on him in their last fight, and would assume Luke was operating at peak. Moreover this quote takes place before the duel had one on for any substantial period of time, so Jacen doesn't have much to go off in regards to gauging Luke's combative performance relative to last time, he's just assuming he'll be at the same level and noting he'll have to prevail in this contest.

There's a great deal more that indicates Luke gave Jaina his full power but I'll hold off on that for now till you address what I've presented thus far.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
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September 2nd 2019, 9:34 pm
To reverse my emphasis:

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:On the contrary, both are emphasised:

Inferno wrote:While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

I think the statement speaks for itself, both are noted as factors at play.

The second part is emphasized more given the use of "while" and the context of the quote.

Luke begins his assault on Jacen's fighter well before Jacen tries to resist IE: he's had significantly more time to ramp up. Comparing the amount of power Luke can charge up in a larger timeframe than a weaker opponent isn't an inherently fair point.

Well, Luke had already been TK'ing Jacen's starfighter beforehand, and then Jacen tries to counter and realizes how much power Luke can generate. I suppose it's possible that he spent like a minute before he encountered Jacen charging up a lot of energy, using some of it during the initial attack, and then bursting out more of it when Jacen responds, but I don't see precedent for that happening. Otherwise anyone who has prep time could just amp themselves that way.

Given Jacen never seems to notice any substantial decrease in Luke's capability however, I see no reason why they should be.

Jacen seems to have not realized how much powerful Luke could generate in Revelation though: "Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster"
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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September 3rd 2019, 12:11 pm
@The Ellimist:

The second part is emphasized more given the use of "while" and the context of the quote.

I don't see the relevance to be entirely honest. A greater emphasis being placed on one doesn't negate the other factor at play. For example if I were to give you a light cut across the arm, and then shoot you in the leg both would impede your ability to fight. While the second one is more debilitating it doesn't remove the first event. I was contesting Ziggy's notion that the emphasis is on the lack of effort, and that Jacen's surprise, which is obviously intended to be an important factor, is not emphasised.

Well, Luke had already been TK'ing Jacen's starfighter beforehand, and then Jacen tries to counter and realizes how much power Luke can generate. I suppose it's possible that he spent like a minute before he encountered Jacen charging up a lot of energy, using some of it during the initial attack, and then bursting out more of it when Jacen responds, but I don't see precedent for that happening. Otherwise anyone who has prep time could just amp themselves that way.

He doesn't have to have held anything in reserve. If he blows out all his power right off the bat and Jacen tries to meet it the energy he's been charging up will be significantly greater, hence why Jacen is overwhelmed and tossed into the side of his fighter.

Jacen seems to have not realized how much powerful Luke could generate in Revelation though: "Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster"

Probably because it's easier to judge somebody's level of power via TK than augmentation.
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