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NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax)

January 17th 2020, 10:01 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Ok... got a couple days off so let's get this started.

Opening Thoughts

Whilst the feats you've presented for Kun in your opener are certainly of an exceptionally high calibre, I feel it's worth noting that we have a noticeable distinction between them and Caedus's own accomplishments, and that instead of spamming environmental showings we should either look for a direct comparison between the two combatants, or find an avenue in which they both have exceptional performamnces to compare them. Since I believe due to the nature of this debate (That being that it's a cross era versus) we lack anything of substance regarding the former we should instead turn our attention to the latter. As noted prior I don't think anything you've provided fits that bill, nor do I think that say, Caedus's TK performances do either. For example, how do we compare what you've shown for Kun to Jacen ragdolling drop ships as early as Dark Nest:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The drop ship completed its attack pattern, then stopped firing as it descended below the effective altitude for its fire-control apparatus. The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base.
… Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.
Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.
… And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel.

Or yanking back accelerating B-Wings:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The second B-wing gave up trying to hold Kyle and his companions at bay and dropped its tail to bring its torpedo launcher to bear. Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.

I think the most obvious answer is that we can't. However, an area in which they both share noteworthy accomplishments and accolades would be lightsaber prowess and augmentation, so let's start with that shall we (That is unless you are capable of proposing anything better to work with)?

Allow me to introduce Galen Marek. Due to his time under Vader's sadistic, cruel and violent training he's a force to be reckoned with, being noted to have "all but perfected" lightsaber combat:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:The Apprentice’s training was harsh and unforgiving: Vader subject the boy to rigorous physical tests bordering on torture. He first controlled the boy through fear, and then taught him to embrace hatred and other base emotions. As the boy grew older, Vader promised him greater power - through the dark side. Under Vader’s relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

This alone is better than any hype I've seen cited from the TOTJ era regarding saber prowess, and Galen himself is nothing to write home about in comparison to Caedus. At the start of TFU he's being matched by relatively weak opponents. One such opponent would be Rham Kota:

The Force Unleashed wrote:The duel raged all across the control center, which shook and rattled as the facility around it broke apart. The apprentice ignored everything else-Juno's voice, the wildly fluctuating gravity, the never-ending explosions, the rising temperature of the floor beneath him-in order to concentrate solely on this one vital battle. Kota wouldn't beat him, but could he beat Kota? He had to.

Who himself is vastly beneath Shaak Ti:

Insider 140 wrote:After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.

Somebody Galen was able to match upon bettering himself:

The Force Unleashed wrote:The fight progressed around the sarlacc’s center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary’s head. In return she took tighter control of the beast’s distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.

Here's this same Galen being stalemated in CQC by a Shadow Guard:

The Force Unleashed wrote:Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Shadow10

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Shadow11

In both fights he's only able to win by the environment or the force. Getting tagged in the comic and equalled in the novel. These same Shadow Guards are locked beneath the likes of Ventress, and more importantly Mara:

Starships and Vehicles Collection 63 wrote:None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

Who is likewise stated to be below Jacen blade to blade:

Insider 107 wrote:Mara engages Jacen’s StealthX starfighter in an encounter that causes them both to land on the planet. Aware that he would triumph in a duel, she takes refuge in narrow underground tunnels where a lightsaber would be ineffective in close combat.

The gap isn't massive however. As, notably, Mara beats Jacen going off nothing but an environmental edge:

Spoiler:

However, upon killing her Jacen gets a sacrificial power up:

Essential Reader's Companion wrote:Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

Which allows him to curbstomp Kyle Katarn, the NJO battlemaster:

Spoiler:

Note that during this duel Caedus was stalling for the GAG to arrive so he could take the team alive, and was still recovering from his duel with Luke on top of that. Making this even more impressive. What's especially interesting is that Kyle was specifically selected over Corran:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:“Masters Horn and Katarn have volunteered. I am also willing to lead it. But I haven’t assigned a mission leader yet…because I think you should lead it.”
...
He thought about it a long moment. “Here’s my decision. Master Katarn will lead this mission.”

Somebody who's proximate to Mara:

I, Jedi wrote:After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.

Meaning Caedus goes from being comparable to Mara levels to completely stomping them. Yet still, Caedus is casually dismissed in 5 moves by an enraged Luke Skywalker:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

This occurs while Luke is injured, and Caedus is amped off pain the pain of a kidney injury. Following this exchange Caedus's guard gets repeatedly hammered by Luke's strength, even after Luke is infected with vong poison, showing a decisive strength edge on top of the speed/skill advantage. Now, let's look at amped Jaina:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

She's operating at a state of near invincibility, feeling like she can catch blaster bolts between her fingers and smash through durasteel. More importantly though, she scales to enraged Luke, as Caedus was completely convinced he was fighting the real deal, and uses the outcome of their last duel as a proxy for the current one, noting that unless he ups the intensity of his performance he'll die. Despite this, he more or less matches her:

Spoiler:

Jaina proves unable to break his guard and they land an equal number of physical strikes. She only gains an edge upon utilising the force, but even then, Caedus has proven he can do the same against her, as is made abundantly clear when he disables her with FL:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach. In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses. A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad.

This would have won him the second round had it not been for Jaina's removal of his arm through abusing a 2 to 1 weapon advantage. So Caedus is equal, better than her if anything really, considering his arm is busted before the fight starts. In the end we're left with:

Caedus (Invincible)=>Amped Jaina ~ Enraged Luke>>>>>>Caedus (Inferno)>>>Jacen (Sacrifice) ~ Mara>>>Shadow Guard ~ Galen Marek (Mid Novel)>Ti>>>Kota ~ Galen Marek (Early Novel).

Can Kun match? You've yet to demonstrate such. Caedus wins.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on January 18th 2020, 1:28 am; edited 2 times in total
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax)

January 17th 2020, 10:07 pm
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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January 17th 2020, 10:11 pm
Once again, solid post. Relatively concise but makes an effective point.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax)

January 17th 2020, 10:13 pm
solid post really interesting points
Divina
Divina

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax)

January 17th 2020, 10:17 pm
ooh i like this post, i am wanting to get into more legends material because right now i am kind of a canon noob lol. anyways good luck on your debate @DC77 (Reborn) SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 228124001
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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January 17th 2020, 10:35 pm
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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January 17th 2020, 10:43 pm
Very nice post. Making me really want to reread these stories, DC.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

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January 17th 2020, 11:31 pm
nps :3
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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January 18th 2020, 12:18 am
@BoD (Away): Cheers bro.
Divina
Divina

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January 18th 2020, 12:29 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:@NotAA3 @The lord of hunger @Divina: Thanks a lot.
no prob bob SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 228124001 SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 228124001
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

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January 18th 2020, 12:42 am
good site lol
xolthol
xolthol
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January 18th 2020, 7:01 am
@DC77 (Reborn) Great post
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

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January 18th 2020, 8:56 am
@DC77 (Reborn) Great job.
Ziggy
Ziggy

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January 18th 2020, 9:07 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Hahahaha "Lady" Kulvax
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

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January 18th 2020, 11:57 am
@IG (Exists) @Xolthol: Thanks a lot.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

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February 9th 2020, 8:12 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Ok... got a couple days off so let's get this started.

Opening Thoughts





Whilst the feats you've presented for Kun in your opener are certainly of an exceptionally high calibre, I feel it's worth noting that we have a noticeable distinction between them and Caedus's own accomplishments, and that instead of spamming environmental showings we should either look for a direct comparison between the two combatants, or find an avenue in which they both have exceptional performamnces to compare them. Since I believe due to the nature of this debate (That being that it's a cross era versus) we lack anything of substance regarding the former we should instead turn our attention to the latter. As noted prior I don't think anything you've provided fits that bill, nor do I think that say, Caedus's TK performances do either. For example, how do we compare what you've shown for Kun to Jacen ragdolling drop ships as early as Dark Nest:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The drop ship completed its attack pattern, then stopped firing as it descended below the effective altitude for its fire-control apparatus. The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base.
… Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.
Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.
… And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel.

Or yanking back accelerating B-Wings:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The second B-wing gave up trying to hold Kyle and his companions at bay and dropped its tail to bring its torpedo launcher to bear. Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.

I think the most obvious answer is that we can't. However, an area in which they both share noteworthy accomplishments and accolades would be lightsaber prowess and augmentation, so let's start with that shall we (That is unless you are capable of proposing anything better to work with)?

Allow me to introduce Galen Marek. Due to his time under Vader's sadistic, cruel and violent training he's a force to be reckoned with, being noted to have "all but perfected" lightsaber combat:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:The Apprentice’s training was harsh and unforgiving: Vader subject the boy to rigorous physical tests bordering on torture. He first controlled the boy through fear, and then taught him to embrace hatred and other base emotions. As the boy grew older, Vader promised him greater power - through the dark side. Under Vader’s relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

This alone is better than any hype I've seen cited from the TOTJ era regarding saber prowess, and Galen himself is nothing to write home about in comparison to Caedus. At the start of TFU he's being matched by relatively weak opponents. One such opponent would be Rham Kota:

The Force Unleashed wrote:The duel raged all across the control center, which shook and rattled as the facility around it broke apart. The apprentice ignored everything else-Juno's voice, the wildly fluctuating gravity, the never-ending explosions, the rising temperature of the floor beneath him-in order to concentrate solely on this one vital battle. Kota wouldn't beat him, but could he beat Kota? He had to.

Who himself is vastly beneath Shaak Ti:

Insider 140 wrote:After an inconclusive victory against Rahm Kota, and a more final one against the mad Paratus, Starkiller takes on a far more formidable foe in this classic scene: Shaak Ti, one of the most powerful Jedi.

Somebody Galen was able to match upon bettering himself:

The Force Unleashed wrote:The fight progressed around the sarlacc’s center rings, blow and counterblow accompanied by the roaring of the beast. The apprentice cut off teeth and threw the fragments at his adversary’s head. In return she took tighter control of the beast’s distributed intelligence and sent its food-seeking tentacles flailing for him. He repulsed them and fought on.

Here's this same Galen being stalemated in CQC by a Shadow Guard:

The Force Unleashed wrote:Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning. Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Shadow10

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Shadow11

In both fights he's only able to win by the environment or the force. Getting tagged in the comic and equalled in the novel. These same Shadow Guards are locked beneath the likes of Ventress, and more importantly Mara:

Starships and Vehicles Collection 63 wrote:None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

Who is likewise stated to be below Jacen blade to blade:

Insider 107 wrote:Mara engages Jacen’s StealthX starfighter in an encounter that causes them both to land on the planet. Aware that he would triumph in a duel, she takes refuge in narrow underground tunnels where a lightsaber would be ineffective in close combat.

The gap isn't massive however. As, notably, Mara beats Jacen going off nothing but an environmental edge:

Spoiler:

However, upon killing her Jacen gets a sacrificial power up:

Essential Reader's Companion wrote:Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

Which allows him to curbstomp Kyle Katarn, the NJO battlemaster:

Spoiler:

Note that during this duel Caedus was stalling for the GAG to arrive so he could take the team alive, and was still recovering from his duel with Luke on top of that. Making this even more impressive. What's especially interesting is that Kyle was specifically selected over Corran:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:“Masters Horn and Katarn have volunteered. I am also willing to lead it. But I haven’t assigned a mission leader yet…because I think you should lead it.”
...
He thought about it a long moment. “Here’s my decision. Master Katarn will lead this mission.”

Somebody who's proximate to Mara:

I, Jedi wrote:After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.

Meaning Caedus goes from being comparable to Mara levels to completely stomping them. Yet still, Caedus is casually dismissed in 5 moves by an enraged Luke Skywalker:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

This occurs while Luke is injured, and Caedus is amped off pain the pain of a kidney injury. Following this exchange Caedus's guard gets repeatedly hammered by Luke's strength, even after Luke is infected with vong poison, showing a decisive strength edge on top of the speed/skill advantage. Now, let's look at amped Jaina:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:Despite the ringing in her ears and the gauze in her head-despite her hugely aching skull and the big knot of hurt swelling on her brow-Jaina had never been so filled with the Force. She could feel it in every cell of her body, swirling through her like fire, burning more ferociously every moment. She had never felt so strong or so quick or so alert. She could drive her fist through a durasteel wall, or catch a blaster bolt between her fingers. Despite the red curtain of blood cascading from the gash where Vatok's helmet had split her forehead, she was aware of everything.

She's operating at a state of near invincibility, feeling like she can catch blaster bolts between her fingers and smash through durasteel. More importantly though, she scales to enraged Luke, as Caedus was completely convinced he was fighting the real deal, and uses the outcome of their last duel as a proxy for the current one, noting that unless he ups the intensity of his performance he'll die. Despite this, he more or less matches her:

Spoiler:

Jaina proves unable to break his guard and they land an equal number of physical strikes. She only gains an edge upon utilising the force, but even then, Caedus has proven he can do the same against her, as is made abundantly clear when he disables her with FL:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach. In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses. A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad.

This would have won him the second round had it not been for Jaina's removal of his arm through abusing a 2 to 1 weapon advantage. So Caedus is equal, better than her if anything really, considering his arm is busted before the fight starts. In the end we're left with:

Caedus (Invincible)=>Amped Jaina ~ Enraged Luke>>>>>>Caedus (Inferno)>>>Jacen (Sacrifice) ~ Mara>>>Shadow Guard ~ Galen Marek (Mid Novel)>Ti>>>Kota ~ Galen Marek (Early Novel).

Can Kun match? You've yet to demonstrate such. Caedus wins.

So you're completely abandoned a Force debate? Wise. Thinking Caedus' scaling off of his own era's greater lightsaber exposure would save you? Foolish.

Well, I'll take your basis of Marek and raise you Warb Null, who has the combined combative memories of King Adas and Freedon Nadd:

Hammer wrote:Stronger… perhaps, but not smarter. Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it, millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.

King Adas being the warrior who spent three centuries as the greatest swordsman in the Sith Empire:

Freedon Nadd being the one who defeated and killed Master Metta Tremayne; lightsaber instructor and expert in all its forms:

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 4714151-090%20005%20battles%20%26%20events%20-%204400bby%20nad3

Prior to learning everything Naga Sadow knew, including lightsaber techniques:

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 4714293-090%20006%20battles%20%26%20events%20-%204400bby%20nad4
The Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Sadow showed him the dark side of the Force and taught him skills the other Jedi Knights had not seen in centuries. With these new powers and weapons, Nadd left Yavin 4 and traveled to the primi-tive planet of Onderon.

Noting that Naga Sadow was considered the master of the Marauder caste of Sith Warriors in the reconstituted Sith Empire for a millennium:

Star Wars the Old Republic wrote:The other one was mastered by Naga Sadow, who could intuit where his foe was weakest and then strike precisely with devastating effect.

All of which was prior to a century of Nadd killing more Jedi than anyone in history had, including Tulak Hord:

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 4714187-nadd1

The same Tulak Hord who was one of the greatest Jedi killers and lightsaber duelists ever:

Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:"This was the tomb of Tulak Hord, known as the greatest lightsaber duelist of the Sith Lords. His skill was considered remarkable even in his time, when many true lightsaber masters lived. If you were to face an ancient Sith Lord in combat, you would learn that we are as children playing with toys compared to the prowess of the old Masters."

Tomb of Tulak Hord Codex Entry wrote:His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful.

That was the level of Warb Null's combative knowledge, when Ulic completely out-duelled him:

Straight from the Horse's Mouth: A Guide to the Tales of the Jedi Universe, Part 3—Star Wars Insider 28 wrote:Warb Null-The leader of the dissident Naddist, Null combined martial prowess with his mastery of the dark-side of the Force. He was eventually killed by UIic Qel-Droma.

Ulic continues perfecting his sword technique in the years after:

Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:While his brother [Ulic] perfected his combat skills

Until he faces Exar Kun where they're a perfect equal in lightsaber combat:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours

Exar Kun then went on, completely reinventing his entire lightsaber technique to become virtually unstoppable in a duel by learning the combat techniques of the mythos' most powerful Sith holocron:

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology wrote:The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.

Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:
The construction and use of the first double-bladed lightsaber is sometimes credited to Jedi-turned-Sith Exar Kun, but according to the Tedryn Holocron, Exar Kun assembled his weapon by following instructions from a Sith Holocron, possibly prepared by the Jedi Exiles themselves.

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology wrote:Some unique objects are invariably associated with their remarkable owners. The unusual double-bladed lightsaber of the fallen Jedi Exar Kun is one such artifact. This weapon as distinctive and dangerous as its builder, the Dark Lord of the Sith, who initiated the great Sith War and nearly toppled the Old Republic.

[...]

As the battle against the Jedi escalated, Kun altered his normal lightsaber into a more deadly and dangerous weapon. Kun added a second emitter matrix on the opposite end of the handgrip, allowing him to release two blue-white blades simultaneously. The dark Jedi wielded the saber much as he would a quarterstaff, using one blade to block incoming attacks, then quickly spinning the handgrip to use the second blade to strike a killing blow against his opponent.

Customized controls allowed him to adjust each blade's length from half a meter to one and a half meters. Panels controlled each blade's intensity: at its highest setting, a blade was like any other lightsaber, with the ability to cut through dense materials such as armor plating and durasteel with virtually no resistance. At the lowest power setting, a blade became a simple shaft of light, delivering no damage and providing no resistance against incoming lightsaber attacks. By abruptly shortening a blade or dropping it to the lowest power setting, Kun tricked his opponents into overextending themselves during attacks, giving him an opportunity for a dealy counterstrike. By coupling these tactics with his Force abilities to predict the actions of his opponents, Kun became virtually unstoppable in combat.

Speaking of Asajj Ventress, her most deadly lightsaber technique was in fact an Exar Kun technique:

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) - Page 2 Screen39

Which by itself implies Kun's level in comparison to Ventress given that one of his techniques is literally better than all of the rest of her's.

Which brings me to your argument. Mara is indeed impressive, as impressive as Asajj Ventress? Not even close. Ventress routinely contested Anakin Skywalker, Mando Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi whereas Mara was only on par with Kyle Katarn, as you've shown.

Now I'll allow everyone to draw their own conclusions here from the aforementioned, but you are not winning this debate by appealing to lightsaber skill.
KingofBlades
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February 9th 2020, 10:24 am
Good post, though I think you should've done more than react defensively. Make new arguments, connections etc.
LadyKulvax
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February 9th 2020, 10:43 am
I mean, neither me nor DC are even going full-out at this point. I attacked him with Kun's Force prowess scaling and he attacked me with Caedus' lightsaber prowess scaling. This is feeling each other out for which way to go about this. Not an all-out post. I guess the OP's rules were premature given the nature of this debate. The biggest Caedus rep vs the biggest Kun rep isn't going to be a typical debate. Which is probably best for all parties involved.
LadyKulvax
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February 10th 2020, 9:37 am
@Decaf Opinion on my saber argument? Interested in your input.
DarthAnt66
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March 1st 2020, 7:42 pm
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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March 1st 2020, 7:45 pm
Something will drop in the next few days.
LadyKulvax
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March 1st 2020, 8:08 pm
I'm spending most of my time working on my Outlander Respect Thread which I've realised is going to be fvcking huge. So take your time.
The Fallen Warrior
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March 1st 2020, 8:17 pm
I mean I really wanna see some real Kun arguments, enough of the prodding there kids, you only have 3 posts, time to unleash the power
LadyKulvax
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March 1st 2020, 9:13 pm
I think the two of us kinda dropped the whole limits shtick for freeform.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
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March 21st 2020, 1:57 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Took a little longer than expected due to personal issues, so apologies for that.

A Kunt Or A Solo: Who To Choose


So you're completely abandoned a Force debate? Wise.

Unless you can establish a meaningful method of comparison between their vastly differing accomplishments yes, I will be abandoning a force debate and focusing on sabers instead.

Well, I'll take your basis of Marek and raise you Warb Null, who has the combined combative memories of King Adas and Freedon Nadd:

Which doesn't mean he's their peer, or even close really. It's not the knowledge afforded to you that matters, it's how efficiently you apply that knowledge. I'm speaking from experience as a fencer here. Having 2 years worth of knowledge that my opponents did not never stopped them from thrashing me, due to the fact that my application of what I knew was poor by contrast. But regardless, let's address what you posted for Adas and Nadd:

King Adas being the warrior who spent three centuries as the greatest swordsman in the Sith Empire:

You didn't provide a source for this, nor did you make note of anybody impressive that this puts him above, even if we're to presume you're correct.

Freedon Nadd being the one who defeated and killed Master Metta Tremayne; lightsaber instructor and expert in all its forms:

Being an expert in all forms doesn't compare to "all but perfecting" saber combat in its entirety.

Prior to learning everything Naga Sadow knew, including lightsaber techniques:

Subject to the same rebuttal contained at the start of the post.

All of which was prior to a century of Nadd killing more Jedi than anyone in history had, including Tulak Hord:

Which means squat. Nadd doesn't have to even be close to Hord to have killed more Jedi, he can have had greater and more numerous oppurtunities to do so, fought weaker adversaries ect ect.

That was the level of Warb Null's combative knowledge, when Ulic completely out-duelled him:

Not without major difficulty.

Speaking of Asajj Ventress, her most deadly lightsaber technique was in fact an Exar Kun technique:

This is referencing a gameplay mechanic, nothing more. Not inclined to accept it.

Which brings me to your argument. Mara is indeed impressive, as impressive as Asajj Ventress? Not even close.

I never said she was.

Ventress routinely contested Anakin Skywalker, Mando Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi whereas Mara was only on par with Kyle Katarn, as you've shown.

You've not connected Skywalker or Kenobi to Katarn, so I have no reason to care.

Now, let's consider for a minute here. Caedus matching Juke indicates superior aug to Kun, as established in my opening post. His scaling to Galen puts him out of his reach in technical skill, which was also established in my opening post. Your chain doesn't disprove that, it's built on a variety of false notions that don't withstand scrutiny in the slightest. On top of the aformentioned, Caedus's pain tolerance (Which allows him to take non-deadly lightsaber strikes without issue, even being amped by them as shown versus Luke) and fighting sight (Which prevents anything Kun does from being unpredictable) will only make this easier, and should allow victory even if I accept the idea that Kun is Caedus's marginal superior as a martial combatant conventionally. My boy wins, plain and simple.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on March 21st 2020, 2:13 pm; edited 2 times in total
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