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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 18th 2019, 11:30 pm
THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. THE VICTOR, @DC77 (Reborn), WILL ADVANCE TO THE NEXT ROUND.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Tyrann10

__________________________________________________

This thread is apart of a larger tournament between ten Suspect Insight members. You can read the other debates here:

__________________________________________________

Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force - InvincibleKyp Durron as of Legacy of the Force - Invincible.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Ff10
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Last edited by Suspect Insight on October 5th 2019, 1:57 pm; edited 4 times in total
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 18th 2019, 11:58 pm
SA can open, I'm not particularly interested in kicking this off.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 3:29 am
Ah this is gonna be the ultimate NJO fight. Can’t wait to see the arguments on either side.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 11:18 am
TAEP.
dark-sith123
dark-sith123

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 11:43 am
How many CaVs are you in?
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 12:30 pm
2, I quit the rest lol.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 12:45 pm
I'll have my opener up by the end of the week.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 19th 2019, 1:15 pm
@SithArchaeologist Nice, I look forward to it.
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 26th 2019, 9:20 am
@SithArchaeologist You have a 96 hour extension starting at the moment of this message being posted.
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 27th 2019, 10:59 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
I apologize for the delay. Life tends to get in the way at the most inconvenient times. I'd been giving an extension to tomorrow night by Ant, which thankfully I will not need to take all of. Here's my opener. Unique character count (not including this intro, headers, and sourced quotes): 5439

Part I: Darth Bane
Darth Bane was a Sith Lord of incredible strength in the Force. His power is described as “near-infinite,” with multitudes of Sith artifacts being “drops of rain” next to his “ocean of power.” He was also described as having greater mastery over “Sith power” than all who preceded him.

"Through the dark side he had access to near-infinite power."
~Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

"Zannah knew he looked on the rings, amulets, and other paraphernalia with disdain. The spark of the dark side that burned within them was like a single drop of rain falling into the ocean of power he already commanded; he saw no need to augment his abilities with gaudy jewelry fashioned centuries ago by ancient Sith sorcerers."
~Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

While Bane has many impressive feats that could highlight his impressive strength, I will be examining two in this opener: his destruction of the temple on Lehon and his shielded reentry to Onderon. Near the end of his fight with the Sith weaponmaster Kas’im, Darth Bane summoned a Force wave that collapsed much of the structure of the Temple of the Ancients on Lehon:

"There was nothing subtle about Bane's attack: the massive shock wave shook the very foundations of the great Rakatan Temple. The concussive blast had enough power to shatter every bone in Kas'im's body and pulverize his flesh into a mass of pulpy liquid. But at the last possible instant he threw up a shield to protect himself from the attack.

Unfortunately, he couldn't shield the Temple around him. The walls exploded into great chunks of rubble. The archway collapsed in a shower of stone, burying Kas'im beneath tons of rock and mortar. A second later the rest of the roof caved in, drowning out the Twi'lek's dying screams with a deafening rumble.

Bane watched the spectacle of the Temple's implosion from the safety of the ground at the foot of the stairs. Billowing clouds of dust rolled out from the wreckage and down the stairs toward him."
~Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

For reference, the temple was able to withstand repeated turbolaser fire:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDSiCzKtk1w

Later, he summoned a protective bubble of Force shielding that maintained enough atmosphere for himself and a drexl to cross the void of space between Dxun and Onderon. He then proceeded to reenter Onderon’s atmosphere and land on the surface (this quote is incomplete as I wasn't able to get my hands on the RoT novel, so I had to lift it from Bane's RT by EmperorDMB):

"Then, gathering the dark side around him and his mount like a protective cloak, he spurred the drexl forward, and a second later they broke free of Dxun's atmosphere and plunged into the frozen vacuum of space that separated him from Onderon and freedom."
~Darth Bane: Rule of Two

These are two remarkable feats that showcase Bane’s potency with the Force. He leveled a temple that was able to withstand sustained turbolaser fire without any noted damage, decades before he had reached his prime. The second feat I listed may be even more impressive, however. Not only was he able to maintain mental control of his drexl as he flew through the void of space, but he shielded both of them from the immense forces of planetary reentry. Reentry has been seen to rip apart spaceships, meteors, asteroids, and anything else that enters a planet’s atmosphere. If it does not have the shielding to withstand the heat or the size to survive large amounts of matter being burned off, it will simply burn up in the atmosphere. Not only was Bane able to survive, he did so without being pushed to his limits. Clearly, these feats showcase superiority to a vast majority of Force users, including Darth Caedus. I’ll get into a feat-by-feat comparison in my rebuttal to your opener, but for now, be content with the knowledge that Caedus has shown nothing that compares to these demonstrations of Bane’s power.

Part II: Darth Sidious
Darth Sidious is consistently credited as the most powerful Sith Lord to ever exist. He is described as the strongest “in history,” among other similar language:

"Vader imagined the power that could be his if he crushed Palpatine and established his own rule over the Empire. But first, he would need his own apprentice. By himself, he could not hope to defeat the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy had ever known."
~Vader: The Ultimate Guide

"Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history."
~The New Essential Chronology

Darth Bane created the Rule of Two, decreeing that there shall only be two Sith: a Master and an apprentice. The Master will teach the apprentice everything that they know. Upon growing strong enough, the apprentice will kill the Master and take an apprentice of their own. And so the cycle repeats. This is said to have worked to near-perfection for a thousand years (credit to darthbane77 for the quotes):

"For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation."
~Episode I: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook

"Ultimately, Bane's plan produced more powerful Sith Lords with every generation."
~Star Wars: Force & Destiny

The Banite Sith passed down knowledge and lore to each member, over a “thousand years of teachings:”

"Under the tutelage of Darth Plagueis, [Sidious] inherited the Sith Archives – more than a thousand years of teachings passed in secret from master to apprentice."
~Book of Sith

Darth Plagueis, Sidious’ Sith Master, is described as a “terrifying nexus of energy,” capable of containing “the full power of the Dark Side:”

"Seen through the Force, he was a nuclear oval of mottled light, a rotating orb of terrifying energy. If the Maladian attack had weakened him physically, it had also helped to shape his etheric body into a vessel sufficiently strong to contain the full power of the dark side."
~Darth Plagueis

Darth Sidious killed Plagueis and overtook his mantle upon learning “all his secrets” and attaining the “skill and ability to do so:”

"In truth, Palpatine was well versed in the ways of the Force, having been apprentice to Darth Plagueis the Wise, a Sith Lord who was a master of arcane and unnatural knowledge. In true Sith tradition, Palpatine murdered his Master upon receiving the skill and ability to do so."
~The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

"Sidious served for many decades as the apprentice of Darth Plagueis, learning diligently at the feet of his Master. Once he possessed all of Plagueis' secrets, he retired him."
~Heritage of the Sith

During the Clone Wars, Sidious is perceived as an “event horizon,” a "black hole of the Force," and a “dark sun blazing with power:”

"And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.
A black hole of the Force."
~Revenge of the Sith

"The doors opened, then closed behind a figure in dark robes. A deep cowl hid most of the face, leaving only a pale chin and a downturned mouth visible. To most eyes the man in those simple robes of rough cloth was unremarkable, just another being making his way in the universe. But to those who could feel the Force he was anything but ordinary. To them, he was a dark sun blazing with power that was simultaneously hypnotizing and terrifying to behold.
Darth Sidious, the reigning Dark Lord of the Sith, had come to Mandalore."
~Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy

Sidious grew stronger after his death above Endor:

"Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters."
~The Ultimate Visual Guide

Sidious’ death above Endor left a Force nexus behind:

"Any unusual localization, or vergence, of dark side Force energy. These strange locales emanated the dark side of the Force, and were considered focal points of power for dark side users. As such, they were often guarded by Jedi Knights to prevent their discovery and exploitation. Known dark side nexuses included the twisted tree-cave on Dagobah, Halagad Ventor's hermitage on Trinta, and a "stain" of dark side energy that hovered over Endor following the defeat of the Emperor."
~The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Sidious himself is a Force nexus:

"The key to Luke's turning is the moment when he and Leia realize the Emperor is no longer defined by his physical form, but has become a chaotic nexus of dark energies that swell and burst open the fabric of space, tearing apart everything in the vicinity, human and machine."
~Dark Empire endnotes

Sidious is described as “the dark side’s most powerful expression:”

"It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression."
~Dark Empire endnotes

Darth Sidious’ power is consistently described in these awe-inspiring terms. He is thirty generations removed from Darth Bane in the Banite line, with each more powerful than the last. As of The Phantom Menace, he was stronger even than Darth Plagueis, and he grew considerably more powerful in the years following. Even if you wish to argue that Caedus is superior in some way to Darth Bane, it is completely inarguable that Sidious outstrips Caedus in every conceivable way.

Part III: Luke Skywalker vs. Darth Sidious
In Dark Empire, Luke Skywalker as a final, ultimate showdown with Darth Sidious’ most powerful incarnation. The duel is remarkably short and Luke is the clear and decisive victor (credit to darthbane77 for the scans):

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  61059010
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  61644010

One of the common viewpoints surrounding this duel is that Leia was amping Luke, and this is why he was able to win. This, however, is simply not true. Leia is instead described as “unlocking resources within Luke” in one source, and in another, she doesn’t use her abilities at all until after Sidious is defeated (credit to darthbane77 for the scan and timestamp):

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  61644010

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5wwQAVR6k&feature=youtu.be&t=8696&fbclid=IwAR3kSEfNHr-VyY5pJ0Oewn7I2ZtW-iXPqNf_iQAzA3mgpjxYr8EvYoPrEPM

No matter which source you go by, Luke defeated Sidious under his own power. Additionally, as of the Vong War, Luke was described as being at the “height of his powers,” confirming superiority to himself when he defeated Sidious:

"This is Luke Skywalker at the height of his powers."
~Jedi Academy Training Manual

Part IV: Kyp Durron vs. Luke Skywalker
Kyp Durron was famously able to manipulate a Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularity:

"Within the Force, within the broader range of senses it gave him, he tried to feel the presence of that void. He couldn't feel the Yuuzhan Vong or their creatures, but he could feel distortions in space, hard little nuggets of wrongness where there should be nothing.

He felt many of them, but didn't know which belonged to the interdictor, which to the coralskippers, and this rarefied sensory data didn't precisely translate to exact directions and distances. A void that felt far away could be from a coralskipper close at hand.

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

The portions of the interdictor in closest proximity to the void accelerated faster into its maw so that portions farther back tore, venting gases into space. But the incredible gravity of the singularity didn't allow the remainder of the ship to tear away and be free. It dragged greater and greater portions of the interdictor into it, compressing them, rending them, and in a moment the interdictor was gone.

Kyp felt obliterated, bone-tired, as though he'd run for days, drawing on the Force to sustain him, and had finally settled down for rest. His diagnostics board was beeping at him and he spared it a glance."
~New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dreams

Which naturally leads to a comparison of when Luke did the same feat. Kyp was not as strained in the action as Luke was and notes that he is stronger than the legendary Luke Skywalker:

"Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.

He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did."
~New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dreams

Luke is famously difficult to scale off of as he consistently holds himself back, particularly after the events of Dark Empire. This, however, should not affect this comparison. Luke only ever used as much power as was necessary. Yet that power left him “exhausted to the point of collapse.” They both controlled similar amounts of power, yet Kyp was better able to handle its effects. This is a clear indication of superiority.

Debaters like to wildly discredit in-universe sources of information whenever it is convenient. And it is true that not all in-universe accolades should be taken at face-value. However, choosing to simply dismiss them out of hand is also a poor method of conducting oneself in a debate. Holistic intent and careful examination of the source in question is important. Often, character quotes are simply a convenient and natural way for the author to impart information they want us, the readers, to have.

Specifically, in the case of Kyp’s supremacy over Luke, we can accept that as fact. The language used in the quote is very clear: this is not Kyp hyping himself up or taking pride in his own power. It is simply a fact. And we have a direct and clear comparison of power between the two. A feat that corroborates Kyp’s assessment of their respective powers. Now, Luke has later statements that confirm he is the strongest Jedi alive, indicating that he grew in power and once again surpassed Kyp. But as of Kyp’s Dovin Basal feat, he is superior to Luke Skywalker.

So, in conclusion we are left with:
Kyp Durron>mid-Vong War Luke Skywalker>Dark Empire Luke Skywalker>Dark Empire Darth Sidious>>Revenge of the Sith Darth Sidious>The Phantom Menace Darth Sidious>Darth Plagueis>>>>>>>>>>>Darth Bane.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)

on May 28th 2019, 4:57 am
Not bad, opener will be up at the end of the week.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  228124001
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
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on May 28th 2019, 5:10 am
Pretty bold post. But the format is not great at all
NotAA3
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on May 28th 2019, 1:53 pm
Well written but I disagree with the overall conclusion.
avatar
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on May 28th 2019, 3:07 pm
I barely have words to describe how beautiful that post was.

I fear the retort will not live up to standards set so far. Hope I'm wrong.
Vader's Legacy
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on May 28th 2019, 4:34 pm
Decent post
Sjuttiosju
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on June 1st 2019, 12:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
My opener will be split into 5 sections (Rebuttals to SA will be saved for subsequent posts):

1.Overall Mastery
2.Specific Abilities
3.Force Power
4.Combative Capability
5.Conclusion

1.Overall Mastery


To give you a basic understanding of Jacen's mastery he spent 5 years studying the most arcane and esoteric aspects of the force, growing gradually stronger during this time:

Jaina could not argue. During Jacen's five-year journey, she had felt him growing steadily stronger in the Force-but also more distant and isolated, like a hermit retreating to his mountaintop. At times, he had seemed to vanish into the Force entirely, and at other times she had sworn he was floating just above her shoulder.

-Joiner King

Throughout his journey he gained incredible skill and knowledge and by the time he returned was second to none in sheer versatility. He's been credited as a master of the force:

Jacen, now a complete master of the Force, has his own plans to bring order to the galaxy.

-Bloodlines (Novel Synopsis)

A notion corroborated by both Lumiya and Luke:

Working in the world of those who couldn't use the Force, Jacen was falling into conniving and manipulating just like them, and while Lumiya didn't think that was a bad thing-all tools were valid to achieve the outcome-he was letting himself be bound by their rules. He was talking about timing. He had full mastery of the Force, but he seemed to enjoy using the limited tricks of ordinary people.

-Sacrifice

Boarding the Anakin Solo. Finding Jacen torturing-torturing-Luke's only child, his son Ben. The duel that followed, Luke against the nephew he'd once loved... the nephew who now commanded Master-level abilities in the Force, though he had not been, and never would be, elevated to the rank of Jedi Master.

-Fury

Jacen's mastery is such that Omas believes he surpasses the majority of masters on Luke's council in this field:

"And," Omas continued, "he has demonstrated that he possesses skills and power that not even most confirmed Masters can match."

-Exile

Luke himself agrees with this:

“Third, your specialized training in alternative philosophies of the Force makes you more versatile than many other Jedi-than some Jedi Masters, in fact-making it harder to stop you."

-Betrayal

Luke even believed Jacen could do just about anything:

"Try Jacen. He might be able to do just about anything these days."

-Bloodlines

Leia acknowledges that Jacen has mastered the more esoteric aspects of the force to a greater extent than Luke:

"I know he hasn't studied every esoteric Force discipline you have," Leia said

-Betrayal

Jaina backs this up, stating that even Luke doesn't understand the full range of Jacen's powers:

Even Luke did not know the full of extent of Caedus's powers, and Jaina had no illusions about being her brother's equal in terms of Force strength.

-Invincible

Overall it's made abundantly clear that Jacen's mastery of the force exceeds virtually everyone's as of Legacy Of The Force, including Luke and his council (Which includes Kyp).

2.Specific Abilities


Even if you manage to successfully articulate why Kyp is stronger than Jacen there's still the matter of Jacen's skillset, which should compensate for any sort of power disparity between the two.

To begin we have Jacen's pain tolerance. Nothing Kyp can do to Jacen minus killing him will keep him down. Jacen has a long history of tanking ridiculous injuries, the sort of injuries that would put Kyp down.

Jacen tanks getting stabbed repeatedly by a spiked toecap, which gave injuries that would have paralysed anyone else:

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.
"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."
She kicked again.
"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"
Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney. A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealinig his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.
But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.
He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

-Tempest

Jacen fights Mara right after getting a tunnel dropped on him:

The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke.

-Sacrifice

Withstands the influence of sonic weaponry designed to incap Jedi and then proceeds to outrun blaster bolts:

Jacen didn't even experience it as sound at first. It hit him like a windstorm, blasting him to his knees, bringing pain to every millimeter of his skin as though he were being scorched by a gigantic blowtorch. His lightsaber fell from his lifeless fingers and rolled away.
Even as the attack convulsed him with pain, Jacen, in some dim portion of his mind that still functioned, recognized it-a sonic assault, something that did not have to be aimed or tracked to bring a Jedi down.
Jacen rolled sideways, kicking the metal floor to propel himself, and managed to be a meter away when the first blaster bolt hit the spot where he'd been kneeling. He continued the roll, awkward because of the pain that racked him, but came up on his feet. Despite his blurring vision, he saw his lightsaber rolling across the floor, extended his hand toward it
Two white egg-shaped canisters hit the floor near him. He leapt backward away from them, rotating through the air as he went, and came down on his feet, but his legs buckled as he landed and he crashed to the floor.
He could still see his lightsaber. He exerted his will toward it. It wobbled on the floor and began rolling toward him.
The egg-shaped canisters detonated, filling the air around them with white smoke. It rapidly spread, obscuring everything. But Jacen managed to maintain his focus, and his lightsaber flew to his hand before the whiteness closed down all vision.
Jacen rolled to the side again, heard and felt the heat from blaster-fire hitting where he'd just lain. So they can see, he thought. Optics in their helmets. There had to be sound bafflers, too.
Well, he had a couple of tricks remaining, and they had nothing to do with specialized gear.
He knew more about pain than his opponents realized. At the height of the Yuuzhan Vong war, he'd been a prisoner for months, subjected to their tortures and customs of self-inflicted agony. He had learned to function within their Embrace of Pain and other rituals that would break beings not accustomed to such hardships.
A sudden infliction of pain could surprise him, surely. But it couldn't keep him down.
He let the pain flow through him as though it were the Force. He internalized it, experiencing it as an old friend-albeit an old friend he didn't necessarily want visiting him too often.
He stood and moved forward. His first few steps were awkward and slow, his later ones sure, and once he was in full mastery of his body and the pain that suffused it, he put on a burst of speed in traditional Jedi fashion, outracing the blaster bolts that tailed him.
Pain-racked, unslowed, he neared the wall and leapt high up on it, landing on one of the ascending ramps. Now he was still within the smoke cloud from the canisters but shielded from blasterfire from above. Moments later he reached the walkway level where Thrackan Sal-Solo had stood.

-Betrayal

And, more importantly, tanks getting lightsaber blades stabbed straight through him:

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.
The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

-Inferno

He let the sentence trail off as the door opened on its own, revealing a dark-uniformed woman with an athletic build and brown, furious eyes.
"Jaina?"
A lightsaber snap-hissed to life, and suddenly Caedus felt as though he were going to vomit fire.

-Invincible

Kyp does not have the damage output to keep Jacen down, anything other than a killing strike will be insufficient and, as I'll soon explain, Kyp isn't landing one of those on his best day.

Moving onto his other abilities we have his mastery of illusions and mind-games. He's been able to fool force users more powerful than Kyp, such as Luke, in both Dark Nest:

She turned to Jacen, but he only held a finger to his lips and moved his hoverchair closer to Luke. R2-D2 emitted a confused whistle and raised a hydraulic extension with a medical sensor at the end.
"Mara!" Luke turned and hit the emergency summons button next to Mara's bed, but Jacen made a motion with his hands and the button did not depress. Luke did not seem to realize this. He turned back to Mara and placed his fingers to her throat, checking her pulse. "I can't feel a pulse. Artoo, call an EmDee droid. Tell her to hurry!"
R2-D2 spun toward the data jack to obey, but Jacen used the Force to disable the power to the droid's treads.
Mara caught Jacen's gaze. "All right, Jacen. This has gone far enough."
Not yet. The message reverberated without words inside Mara's head. He must learn.
Mara felt another wave of Force energy pass over her, and Luke cried out in horror and looked toward R2-D2. "Artoo, what's taking you so long?"
R2-D2 issued a frustrated whistle and spun an accusing photoreceptor toward Jacen. Luke could take it no longer. He raised a hand and began to fill it with life-giving Force energy.
"Jacen, we can't wait. We have to revive her ourselves." He pointed at the emergency respirator hanging on the wall. "Get the respirator."
Luke leaned over Mara and started to place his hand on her chest-until Jacen raised an arm and pushed him away.
"Jacen!" Luke screamed. "What's wrong with you?"
"Nothing," Jacen said calmly. "And there's nothing wrong with Aunt Mara."
Luke's gaze swung back to Mara, and she could not decide whether he looked more stunned or relieved. "You're . . . you're alive again!"
"I was never dead," Mara said. "I think Jacen is trying to make a point."

-Swarm War

And Legacy Of The Force:

Jacen cloaked Lumiya in a Force illusion and projected his own unconcerned calm as Luke approached. It was an exhausting maneuver, nothing beyond him when dealing with ordinary people, but something that took all his strength when deceiving a Jedi Master of Luke's stature.
Luke strode toward them and glanced back over his shoulder a couple of times as if someone were following him. He acknowledged Jacen stiffly and paid Lumiya no more than polite attention, as if his mind was more on what was down the corridor.
Jacen strained to hold the Force illusion steady, like a ball of heat within his chest that he had to balance to keep it from touching his rib cage. That was exactly how it felt. And Lumiya . . . Lumiya, somehow nestled in miniature within that ball of heat, felt not vengeful or trying to disguise her intentions, but genuinely worried about being discovered before her work was complete.

-Bloodlines

And Jacen has no reservations about using illusions in combat, certainly not when he's at the point of defeat:

Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm Ben.
Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked.
It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place.

-Sacrifice

Even if Kyp is powerful enough to conventionally overpower Jacen the latter can simply use illusions to give him the time necessary to gain an edge over Kyp. Couple that with Kyp not having the damage output necessary to keep Jacen down and the outcome of this match becomes unclear, even if Kyp is more powerful.

3.Force Power


Just to dispel the idea of Kyp being more powerful than Jacen we have clear cut comparisons between them, your wonky scaling chain aside. The only three people to have spoken on the matter view Jacen as the superior of the two.

Jacen views himself as second only to Luke, and above Kyp:

I'm more powerful than any of you.
It was a boy's expression of anger, but it was true. And, as history repeated itself because it had no other choice, Jacen was more powerful than any of them except Luke. And he was growing closer to Luke's strength by the day.

-Bloodlines

Luke states that he's the only one who could be sure of stopping Jacen suggesting that he's not confident in Kyp's ability to beat Jacen head to head to head, which makes sense given the council sent Jaina, a desperate gambit based not on her superior power but her other advantages over her brother.

"Exactly." Luke's gaze slid away from the table. "Every future that begins with me going after Caedus ends in darkness. I know I'm the only one who can be sure of stopping him, but no matter how I envision it, it always leads to darkness."

-Invincible

This is backed by Leia's assessment that Jacen was too powerful for anyone to capture alive:

Leia’s relief was bittersweet. As happy as she was to see Raynar leaving his cell, it made her wish that incarceration and rehabilitation had been possible for her son Jacen. But Jacen had been too powerful to capture and too destructive to leave free, and in the end there had been no choice except to hunt him down.

-Abyss

All the evidence seems to support the idea that Jacen is on Kyp's tier at the very least, and likely superior, rather than beneath him by any substantial margin. Given his other advantages that's all Jacen needs to secure a victory.

4.Combative Capability


Jacen being a better swordsman is a borderline fact. Luke compares Kyp to Kyle Katarn in this field:

Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duellist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.

-Backlash

And here's how Kyle fairs against Jacen:

He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.
Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss, and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it, not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.
He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.
(…)
Only Seha's head protruded from the pavement hatch as she watched her four companions assault Colonel Solo.
In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even. Each time the lightsabers came together, the resulting flash of light, slightly greater than two glows by themselves, cast the five combatants into relief. Around them, blinded GAG troopers withdrew, finding one another by touch, keeping their blasters up and at the ready, waiting for the moment when their sight would return and allow them to open fire. Above, though at a distance from the Senate Building, the trails of airspeeder lights glimmered in their passage…
(...)
Ten seconds.
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.
They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.
Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three.
He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute.
Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.
Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.
Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through.
Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's lightsaber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.
Fifteen seconds.
Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question."
The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready.
Katarn caught his returning lightsaber. "Meaning you will torture us to death. Are you listening to yourself, Jacen? Do you even know who you are anymore?"
"I do. It's you who have no idea who I am."
He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.
Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .
One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.
Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.
A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.
Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.
Katarn now stood so close to Caedus that every facial feature was visible, every scar and line in his weathered face, every hair on his brow, mustache, and beard.
Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest.
A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement.

-Fury

Despite the fact that he had the backing of an entire team Kyle could not breach Jacen's defences while the latter was holding back (He needed the team alive) and was effortlessly stonewalled by Jacen at every turn who was perfectly capable of diverting his attention between plotting the trajectories of several vehicles and the team attacking him, and was never in any danger of losing the fight.

5.Conclusion


To summarise/recap:

1.Jacen's mastery is leagues ahead of Kyp's, they aren't on the same tier.
2.Jacen's pain tolerance and mind games are enough to keep Kyp from defeating him, even if Kyp is more powerful.
3.Jacen is at least Kyp's equal as a force wielder, quite possibly superior.
4.Jacen has tooled people who are on Kyp's level combatively.

Those are my cards. You sure you still want to play?
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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on June 1st 2019, 12:33 pm
@SithArchaeologist The ball's in your court.
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on June 1st 2019, 12:51 pm
Decent post.

This has been an absolutely breathtaking CaV so far; evoking emotions in me long thought dead. The enthralling nature of these never ending points and facts has me on the edge of my seat! Bravo boys, can't wait to see Sarchy set a new standard with his next post in this never ending bar-raising showdown!
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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on June 1st 2019, 12:56 pm
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Decent post.

This has been an absolutely breathtaking CaV so far; evoking emotions in me long thought dead. The enthralling nature of these never ending points and facts has me on the edge of my seat! Bravo boys, can't wait to see Sarchy set a new standard with his next post in this never ending bar-raising showdown!

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Kyp Durron (SithArchaeologist)  1076326320
NotAA3
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on June 1st 2019, 12:57 pm
Decent post.
PeraltaEagle45
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on June 1st 2019, 1:11 pm
Not bad, but easily countered. I'll be on vacation from the 9th through the 16th, so I hope to have my response up before then.
Vader's Legacy
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on June 1st 2019, 1:56 pm
The Cosmic Force wrote:
Decent post.
MasterCilghal
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on June 1st 2019, 3:19 pm
Very good post i’m really impressed
xolthol
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on June 1st 2019, 3:52 pm
@DC77 : certainly your best post so far.
Azronger
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on June 1st 2019, 6:20 pm
Amazing post. The part where you used the novel blurb was the best part.
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