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Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 26th 2021, 6:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
TOP 15 TOURNAMENT 
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SS
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EXAR KUN (LADYKULVAX) VS DARTH PLAGUEIS (VAELIAS)
THE ASCENDANT LORD VS THE MASTER OF LIFE AND DEATH


SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) IMG_3596




Tourney Rules Apply as well as LFL Policy for VS Debating in the EU as of October 2021
lorenzo.r.2nd
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 26th 2021, 11:25 pm
oof
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 27th 2021, 7:51 am
Godlike edit, can't wait to see the debate
Alz
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 27th 2021, 2:25 pm
Kun dies, AP cries
Vaelias
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 27th 2021, 2:49 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 2a92acc4198fe232abadd2d67b8ad703










“Beings may elect their leaders, but the Force has elected us.”


Midichlorian Manipulation Power Threshold 



Midichlorian Manipulation is not so much an ability, as it is simply being powerful enough + a certain application of willpower, this is confirmed everywhere in both the EU, Movie Novels, Movies, OOU, IU and from Lucas himself 
Darth Plagueis wrote:”I began with experiments on scurriers and other small creatures. I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians, to override the lesser concentrated midi-chlorian voices of the test subjects. This proved more challenging than I predicted. Because midi-chlorians are linked by a universal mind, the ones in my own cells seem to resist this imposition upon their fellows. But eventually I succeeded, first with small creatures, then with slaves purchased from the Hutts. I forced midi-chlorians to override their natural life cycles.”

Darth Plagueis wrote:Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will.

Revenge of the Sith Script wrote:Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life 
...
 He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Ab4aa80e3bdd9ea33783d5ce61aa8ab3
SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 92b9760d39f4612fb13164c2fefc8699

Jedi Academy: Miniatures Preview 4 wrote:“Darth Plagueis the wise” where he gained much knowledge and power in the dark side of the force. He gained so much power, his only fear was loosing it, “which eventually, of course, he did”, Darth Sidious would recount to Anakin Skywalker many years later. His most noteble accomplishment was his ability to create life by manipulating the force, and this is rumored to be how Anakin was conceived.


George Lucas - The Force Interview 2010 wrote:he made a pact with the devil, to be able to become all powerful, but of course when he did that, she didn't want anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her, once you are powerful, being able to bring her back from the dead. Well if I can do that then I can be emperor of the universe


George Lucas Attack of the Clones Commentary wrote:"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be

now the question remains how powerful does one have to be in order to do this, what exactly is the threshold you must reach? well Lucas himself gives us the answer.

Lucas leaves it up to the reader to decide whether the tale of Darth Plagueis was true or not

George Lucas Rolling Stones Article wrote:Now, there’s a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it’s left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It’s left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force

although it seems he changes his own personal opinion on whether Plagueis actually existed and actually can actually create life or or not, it remains clear that regardless of his fluctuating opinion on Plagueis himself, he still deems possessing the power over life and death to be something utterly supreme, and even tells us the level of power this threshold is at.

Essentially the threshold exists independent of Plagueis, we even get a hint of how powerful it is before Plagueis invention as a character as early as AOTC

in Lucas material he is constantly throwing together the phrases "all powerful" "stop people from dying" " Unnatural"  "Ultimate Power" and "most powerful Jedi ever" 


Attack of the Clones Script wrote:PADMÉ: Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Annie. ANAKIN turns and walks away from the bench. ANAKIN: (angry) I should be! Someday I will be... I will be the most powerful Jedi ever I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying


Attack of the Clones Novelization wrote:"Annie, you tried." She squeezed him a bit tighter. "Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful."

He stiffened at her words and pulled away from her suddenly-and angrily, she realized. "But I should be!" he growled, and then he looked at her, his face a mask of grim determination. "And someday I will be!"

"Anakin, don't say such things," Padme replied fearfully, but he didn't even seem to hear her.

"I'll be the most powerful Jedi ever!" he railed on. "I promise you! I will even learn to stop people from dying!"


George Lucas wrote:we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be, which he hears that he will be, so here he sort of lays out his ambition and you'll see later on his ambition and his dialogue here is the same as Dooku's. He says "I will become more powerful than every Jedi."


Anakin Skywalker: Databank wrote:Palpatine recounted an old Sith legend of Darth Plagueis the Wise. Palpatine explained that Plagueis, a Sith Lord, had abilities that some would describe as unnatural. Like an ancient alchemist, he could coax life out of midi-chlorians, either for the purpose of creating new life, or staving off death in others. This was the promised power of the Sith, suggested Palpatine. Anakin, who had been searching for a way to prevent Padmé from dying, listened intently.


George Lucas wrote:"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful Jedi. The only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerfulIf you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."


Darth Sidious - Revenge of the Sith wrote:The Dark Side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural

George Lucas - Star Wars Archives wrote:if you're going to sell your soul to save somebody you love that's as we say in the film, unnatural, you have to accept the natural course of life, death is obviously the biggest of them all
These are the main attributes Lucas is using to define the threshold.

Not only is Lucas confirming here that the threshold lies vastly beyond AOTC Anakin, who by the way is a rival of AOTC Yoda, but he also tells us that Jedi literally cannot reach the threshold due to the raw force power limitations of the light side of the force as oppose to the dark side 
the "only way" you can reach the threshold is by joining the Dark Side because it is "More powerful" and "the stronger side" 

this means that anyone at this threshold is simply beyond any Jedi is, was or could ever hope to be, its simply impossible unless they embrace another path, which allows them to essentially keep leveling up past max level, to the bonus level, It is these bonus levels where the threshold lies.

as an extension of this Lucas says that somebody at the threshold would be a "Super-Sith" in other words, beyond anyone we actually see in the movies

George Lucas: Rolling Stones Interview wrote:Now, there’s a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. but its left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians?

Lucas saying that if Plagueis truly was at the threshold he would be a Super-Sith strongly implies that Lucas thinks possessing that level of power is beyond any Sith we have seen so far in the movies. which seems apparent given the manor in which Lucas mandated Sidious kill Plagueis in both ROTS and the Plagueis Novel which Lucas played a huge part in 

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Pasted11


in fact George was directly involved in Plagueis' death scene and was again (much like in ROTS) very specific in dictating the manor in which Plagueis is killed

even dictating that Plagueis not only be killed while drunk and in his sleep but also that he be severely weakened prior to his assassination

James Luceno Interview wrote:Chris Banaszek: I know [George Lucas] doesn’t have much – if anything – to do with the EU works….but he does get involved with some of the major stuff, like his approval for Chewie’s death etc. Curious how high up the chain you had to go in regards to the in universe timing of the end of the Plagueis?

Luceno: Chris, as I’ve said in other forums, GL was the one who said that Plagueis should be a Muun, and that Plagueis should have an “accident” that forces him to wear a mask. GL also weighed in on other matters, though mostly through Howard Roffman — then president of LucasArts — with whom I worked most closely.


and we all know how much of a hinderance George think's a respirator is, calling Vader a "cripple" and a "Flunky" because of this, it just goes to show the extent to how Lucas purposefully had Plagueis weakened before he had Sidious kill him.

Lucas is writing these precautions in place for Palpatine no doubt in case Plagueis was indeed at the threshold.

now it is indeed up to the reader to decide whether the power exists, however that was before the release of the Plagueis Novel where we see Plagueis display the very same power Anakin desired so greatly in ROTS....

Plagueis displays the very same power discussed in ROTS, the same power that Lucas says requires this threshold


Plagueis Giving Life 

Darth Plagueis wrote:Deeper in the complex, they moved past cages containing as many creatures as could be found in a well-stocked zoo. OneOne-FourDee indicated a cluster separate from the rest. “These are the Magister’s most recent pregnancies.”

...

“What did the droid mean when it said the Magister’s pregnancies?” Beneath the breath mask, Plagueis might have quirked a smile. “It means that the pregnancies were not achieved by normal means of conception, but rather through the Force.”


...
On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.


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The New Essential Chronology wrote:A mystic obsessed with eternal life, Plagueis is believed to have possessed knowledge that could sustain those who were dying, and perhaps had even gained the ability to use midi-chlorians to draw new life directly from the wellspring of the Force
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Insider 113 wrote:After receiving the Sith title Darth Sidious, Palpatine studied the secrets of the dark side, including his Master’s apparent ability to generate life by influencing midi-chlorians
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Databank: Darth Sidious wrote:Plagueis could, it was said, coax the midi-chlorians present in all living cells to create life from nothingness
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Plagueis prolonging life and granting immortality

Darth Plagueis wrote:Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.
...

But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvenating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.
...

Sidious knew that his own powers had increased tenfold over the decades, but he couldn’t be certain he had learned all of Plagueis’s secrets“his sorcerer’s ways,” as the Sun Guards referred to them—including the ability to prevent beings from dying.
...

This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone. Wry amusement narrowed his eyes. The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest.


-
Plagueis wrote:Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing
=
Book of the Sith, Plagueis wrote:I began with experiments on scurriers and other small creatures. I used my will, amplified through my body’s own midi-chlorians, to override the lesser concentrated midi-chlorian voices of the test subjects. This proved more challenging than I predicted. Because midi-chlorians are linked by a universal mind, the ones in my own cells seem to resist this imposition upon their fellows. But eventually I succeeded, first with small creatures, then with slaves purchased from the Hutts. I forced midi-chlorians to override their natural life cycles.

What I discovered is that these midi-chlorians would not die. Instead they drew upon sustaining Force energy, which acted on a microscopic level to halt tissue decay in their host, putting an end to aging and disease.
-


Plagueis taking life  

Darth Plagueis wrote:On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned Sidious into silence and overwhelmed and addled 11-4D’s processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Venamis to die and be returned to life, until the Bith’s organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death.

[...]

“Let me explain what is happening to you,” Plagueis said. “The cells that make up all living things contain within them organelles known as midi-chlorians. They are, in addition to being the basis for life, the elements that enable beings like me to perceive and use the Force. As the result of a lifetime of study, I have learned how to manipulate midi-chlorians, and I have instructed the limited number you possess to return to their source. In plain Basic, Veruna, I am killing you.”
-
Darth Plagueis wrote:Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.
-
Book of the Sith wrote:To sever the Force is to trigger a mass die-off of a victim’s midi-chlorians – not enough to kill, but enough to take a Jedi’s power. It could be that the Jedi of old knew this feat, but if so they did not understand its underpinnings. Severing the Force is the inverse of what I have done when inducing midi-chlorians to create life. It is far easier to achieve.
-


Ultimate Power Over Life and Death


Plagueis is the first ever to achieve this feat, achieving an unprecedented mastery over death, the other methods like the ones used by Ancient Sith and DE Palpatine being  "lesser" in comparison


Darth Plagueis, Novel Synopsis wrote:Darth Plagueis: Like all Sith Lords before him, he craves absolute power. But like no Sith Lord ever, he possesses the ultimate power—over life and death.
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StarWars.com Databank: Sith wrote:Sidious was apprentice to Darth Plagueis, a wise Sith Lord whose knowledge of arcane and unnatural arts was reputed to extend to manipulating the very essence of life.
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Darth Plagueis, Novel Synopsis wrote:For like no other disciple of the dark side, Darth Plagueis learns to command the ultimate power … over life and death.
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Darth Plagueis wrote:His inward turn had enabled him to master the equally powerful energies of order and disorder, creation and entropy, life and death.
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Revenge of the Sith novelisation wrote:It's a Sith legend, of a Dark Lord who had turned his sight inward so deeply that he had come to comprehend, and master life itself. And-because the two are one, when seen clearly enough-death itself."
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Darth Sidious - Revenge of the Sith wrote:"To cheat death is a power only one has achieved, but if we work together, I know we can discover the secret.”
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 7py26WsvYUOKc2KXwWYWmEHcowmO4WUezQBcRy6WNXnVm8Bb9cr5UPQ3rF2Z6076mKztdXQJuWvo96mePIdDBMdVKUwTO5i5QEXa

Plagueis demonstrates this power, simply through acquiring the threshold and applying his will, to repeatedly kill and bring back Venamis a feat which "stunned Sidious to silence" 

upon hitting the threshold makes the claim that he is easily the most powerful Sith ever 

Plagueis wrote:From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Not only this but Plagueis reaches the power threshold in 42BBY a whole ten years before his death during which time he was constantly playing with his new powers and altering his own Midi-chlorian count resulting in boosts in power, even appearing more youthful as a result, maintaining his physical prime and expanding his own physical potential.

Plagueis wrote:“Master,” Sidious said, interlocking his hands in front of him and bowing his head. Plagueis lowered his head in a gesture of mutual respect. “Welcome, Darth Sidious. It’s good to see you.” As the room was the opposite of the one he had often confined himself to on Sojourn, Plagueis no longer looked like the wide-eyed mystic he had seemed only months earlier. Except for having to wear the breathing device, he struck Palpatine as a slightly older version of the Muun who had visited him on Naboo so many decades before.
-
Plagueis wrote:Wary of approaching the corpse of his former Master, he called on the Force to roll the aged Muun over onto his back. From that angle Plagueis looked almost as he had when Sidious first met him, decades earlier: smooth, hairless cranium; humped nose, with its bridge flattened as if from a shock-ball blow and its sharp tip pressed almost to his upper lip; jutting lower jaw; sunken eyes still brimming with menace—a physical characteristic rarely encountered in a Muun. But then Plagueis had never been an ordinary Muun, nor an ordinary being of any sort.
-
Plagueis wrote:Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.
-
Plagueis wrote:Plagueis remained convinced that he was on the verge of absolute success. The evidence was in his own increased midi-chlorian count; and in the power he sensed in Sidious when he had finally returned to Sojourn. The dark side of the Force was theirs to command, and in partnership they would someday be able to keep each other alive, and to rule the galaxy for as long as they saw fit.
-
Plagueis wrote:But having gained the power to keep another alive hadn’t been enough for him. And so after Sidious had returned to Coruscant, he had devoted himself to internalizing that ability, by manipulating the midi-chlorians that animated him. For several months he made no progress, but ultimately he began to perceive a measured change. The scars that had grown over his wounds had abruptly begun to soften and fade, and he had begun to breathe more freely than he had in twenty years. He began to sense that not only were his damaged tissues healing, but his entire body was rejuvinating itself. Beneath the transpirator, areas of his skin were smooth and youthful, and he knew that eventually he would cease to age altogether.

meaning his prime is above the threshold and given the time difference and what Plagueis was doing that entire time, Id wager he would be pretty far above the threshold

this threshold is the core principal in which Plagueis' character was created


Darth Sidious



Darth Sidious, the culmination of the Banite line which served the purpose to bring the sith back more powerful than ever before, happens to possess many supremacy quotes labeling him the most powerful sith lord of all time 

Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #15 wrote:By the time of the Galactic Civil War, Darth Sidious - probably the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of the order - was ready to exact his revenge on the Jedi.
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Star Wars: The New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history
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Star Wars Insider #86 wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history
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Star Wars: Attack of the Clone - The Visual Dictionary wrote:Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.
-
Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Wild Space wrote:"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"

"Yes," said Yoda flatly.

And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.
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Star Wars: Clone Wars Gambit wrote:Only his brutally rigorous self-discipline, the discipline of the greatest Sith Lord ever to live, saved Sidious from revealing the depth of his fury as Yoda explained the mission to Lanteeb.
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Star Wars Insider #37 wrote:He is a mystery, an untouchable enigma who commands the strongest currents of the Force in the service of the darkest visions of evil.
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Hasbro Star Wars - Evolutions: The Sith wrote:Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!
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but ya get the picture  SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 3750555731


All these sources state Sidious > Kun, the accumulation of such quotes over such a long period of time solidifies this narrative of Sidious being the most powerful sith up to his time. solidly more powerful than Exar Kun. Sidious > Kun has simply been stated too many times to not be true.

When it comes to Plagueis however, Lucas commentary on the power threshold constitutes a clear exception its apparent he thinks Plagueis is > Sidious providing he is at the threshold, based on the "Super Sith" comment and the circumstances surrounding Plagueis' death mandated by Lucas, post Plagueis Novel we know he definitely is at the Threshold 

Summary 


We have three milestones Kun must surpass to be > Plagueis, he must break the ROTS Sheev GOAT Narritive, scale infinitely above AOTC Yoda and scale above every Jedi ever. 


the Sidious GOAT Narrative is firmly established enough for any exception to require direct Lucas involvement. Kun, unfortunately does not posses any G-Canon leverage to excuse him from this Sidous GOAT narrative, unlike Plagueis 

The AOTC Anakin that is infinitely below the threshold is experiencing a level of power so great it utterly overwhelms Yoda and sends force ripples through the galaxy and call Qui-Gon from the netherworld of the force

Attack of the Clones Novelization wrote:Deep in his meditations, peering through the dark side, Master Yoda felt a sudden surge of anger, of outrage beyond control. The diminutive Master's eyes popped open wide at the overwhelming strength of that rage.

And then he heard a voice, a familiar voice, crying, "No, Anakin! No! Don't! No!"

It was Qui-Gon. Yoda knew that it was Qui-Gon. But Qui-Gon was dead, had become one with the Force! One could not retain consciousness and sense of self in that state; one could not speak from beyond the grave.

But Yoda had heard the ghostly call, and in his deep meditative state, his thoughts focused as precisely as they had ever been, the Jedi Master knew that he had not been mistaken.

He wanted to focus on that, then, perhaps to try to follow that call back to the ghostly source, but he could not, overwhelmed again by the surge of rage and pain and... power.
...
He didn't feel empty any longer. He felt a surge of energy and strength beyond anything he had ever known, felt full of the Force, full of power, full of life.

this state of power alone should be beyond Kun given that a few quotes have him below Dooku who is only an equal of AOTC Yoda, and not infinitely beyond a state of power that's vastly beyond being a rough equal of AOTC Yoda 

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Image011

Kun must be in a position where no Jedi can possibly scale above him, which doesn't seem the case given he has been stated to be below SF Malak who was beaten and overpowered by Jedi Revan, now despite how this may have changed post 2003 it is telling that Kun is not beyond Jedi, he should still be in the same realm of power, and that's all this quote needs to show

Lucas thinks if Plagueis can do the feat then he is a Super Sith who is at least as powerful as the threshold, and we literally see Plagueis perform that feat in the lore, so Plagueis' power level in 42BBY is vastly beyond AOTC Anakin above ROTS Sidious and above any Jedi ever, and then he keeps on growing and expanding his M count for the following years, the level of power Plagueis is at is an unnatural almost god tier at the absolute pinnacle of power, hence why its called "Ultimate Power"

Kun, while powerful is still within these natural limits and simply exists on a lesser level than the almost God Tier that Plagueis occupies, at least before his Ritual.


Darth Plagueis > Threshold > Any Jedi Ever > Infinitely above AOTC Anakin and Yoda > ROTS Sidious > Exar Kun

and it is all G-Canon so Kun essentially has no chance in hell at breaking this


your move  SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 2266747095


Last edited by Vaelias on November 2nd 2021, 12:46 pm; edited 2 times in total
Primarch
Primarch

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

October 27th 2021, 5:16 pm
Great post. Looking forward to AP's response.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Part 1 of 2

October 27th 2021, 9:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Also sprawled there, Plagueis: his slender limbs splayed and elongated head turned to one side. Dressed in finery, as for a night on the town.

And now dead.

Or was he?

Uncertainty rippled through Sidious, rage returning to his eyes. A tremor of his own making, or one of forewarning?

Was it possible that the wily Muun had deceived him? Had Plagueis unlocked the key to immortality, and survived after all? Never mind that it would constitute a petty move for one so wise-for one who had professed to place the Grand Plan above all else. Had Plagueis become ensnared in a self-spun web of jealousy and possessiveness, victim of his own engineering, his own foibles?

Before him appeared the visage of the Force itself, the face of God.... George Walton Lucas said, "it's a lie, he can't."

Then, in relief, he pulled himself up to his full height and let out his breath. This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone.


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DARTH PLAGUEIS

The problem with your appeal is that it entirely relies on George W. Lucas to hold any water, but you haven't taken the most important and relevant quotes about Darth Plagueis from him into account:

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Darth Plagueis's supposed powers of true power over life and death 'which was a lie", definitively 'can't' and 'it's a scam' per Lucas himself. This isn't just from him, it's in the most important source material regarding this:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Eternal life, Yoda marveled. The story of Darth Plagueis was true, in a way. The ability to defy death can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was never accomplished by Darth Plagueis, only by a Shaman of the Whills, and it will never be achieved by a Sith Lord. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed. To become one with the Force, and influence still have. The thought was stunning. A power greater than all, it is. Yoda bowed his head. A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice, I gratefully become.

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization wrote:And you will have time to learn it. "Infinite knowledge . . ." Yoda shook his head. "Infinite time, does that require." With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time, even your physical self. Yoda did not move. "Eternal life . . ." The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness. "Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have . . ." Yoda mused. "A power greater than all, it is." It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.

Qui-Gon Jinn 'knows all' per Leland Chee, by the time Darth Sidious reveals himself:
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And even the script states this:

Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith Script wrote:QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.

George Lucas has an enormous hand in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization and even more so in the script for the actual movie.

It is absolutely beyond doubt that the supposed powers over life and death being described in Revenge of the Sith are NOT possible and never were, this is a hard stated fact from George Walton Lucas himself and is embedded within the deepest strata of the Revenge of the Sith plot.

The problem is not and never was whether or not Darth Plagueis existed or whether his powers in his novel are true, only that the powers described in the movies are absolutely not the same thing because they can't be, and given that the powers described are fundamentally not possible per the highest power of the mythos then we know that the connection you have attempted to weave through Darth Plagueis, Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones and Star Wars Episode III: Revenge of the Sith simply isn't there. Whatever Plagueis achieves in the Luceno novel CANNOT be what is described in Revenge of the Sith per George Lucas and thus your only bind for Darth Plagueis to the 'titans' of Revenge of the Sith such as Darth Sidious, is completely and utterly contradictory to G-canon and thus he falls under the very supremacy quotes that you have provided for all of us.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Part 2 of 2

October 28th 2021, 12:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
EXAR KUN

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Exar Kun operates with two pillars, one that props him up through New Republic and another that does the same through Tales of the Jedi, the New Republic one supports the Tales of the Jedi one in turn.

NEW REPUBLIC PILLAR:

Darth Vader is capable of 'destroying' Darth Maul as of The Phantom Menace and a host of Dark Side Prophets at once, with the Force:

Dark Side Prophet to Darth Vader, Tales 9: Resurrection wrote:Of course you could refuse the duel and attempt to destroy all of us here and now. You might even succeed. But such a deed would diminish you in the Emperor's eyes, would it not? And you would always wonder. Doubt would always nag at you. You could never be certain whether Darth Maul was your better...unless you take up this challenge.

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Darth Vader is far more powerful than Kar Vastor who has power 'on the scale' of early Clone Wars era Anakin Skywalker and Yoda:

Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight wrote:The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury, blasted like an open furnace.
Shatterpoint wrote:I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.

Jerec eventually becomes as powerful as Darth Vader:

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Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Game Manual wrote:His embrace of the Force's dark side gives him powers that rival Vader's.

Jerec in the Valley of the Jedi is multiple times more powerful:

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight, lucasarts.com wrote:His heavy brow overshadows the empty recesses that normally embrace eyes. Tattoos flow from his mouth and he hides his empty eye sockets with a thin blindfold-like mask. His power and advantages mainly stem from his vast knowledge of the Force and the Well.

When battling him he can drain most of your resources from the Well leaving you weak and vulnerable. He is more powerful since he has absorbed some of the Void from the Valley of the Souls.

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Jerec's followers held Kyle off long enough for Jerec to access the Valley's secrets and gain phenomenal Force powers. But even with his increased might, Jerec was unable to defeat Kyle or to prevent him from freeing the Valley's trapped Jedi spirits.

Dark Forces II: Jedi Knight Novelization wrote:Now that the Valley was under his control, Jerec was in no particular hurry. He needed time to prepare, but more than that, time in which to savor that which destiny had placed before him, much as a gourmet might linger over a rare and carefully prepared dessert. There was leakage, though - leakage that could double or even triple his ability - and whet his appetite for more.

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Kyle Katarn was still too powerful for Jerec to defeat:

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Jerec's followers held Kyle off long enough for Jerec to access the Valley's secrets and gain phenomenal Force powers. But even with his increased might, Jerec was unable to defeat Kyle or to prevent him from freeing the Valley's trapped Jedi spirits.

LucasArts Continuity Supervisor Ryan Kaufman, starwars.com wrote:But what a task! At the end of Jedi Knight, the player (as Kyle) is either a consummately powerful warrior, having vanquished the evil Dark Jedi Jerec in face-to-face combat...

If Kyle Katarn had gone over to the dark side of the Force, he would have absorbed the power of the Valley of the Jedi, become Emperor and wielded power almost on par with Emperor Palpatine's:

LucasArts Continuity Supervisor Ryan Kaufman, starwars.com wrote:A figure of almost Palpatine-like power, as a Dark Jedi in charge of the Imperial Remnant.

After this we get Dark Forces II: Mysteries of the Sith:

Dark Forces II: Mysteries of the Sith wrote:It has been more than five years since Jerec was defeated at the Valley of the Jedi. Kyle Katarn, continuing his pursuit of the light side of the Force, has joined the fragile New Republic in the struggle against the remnants of the Empire.

In Mysteries of the Sith, Kyle Katarn goes over to the dark side of the Force being corrupted by the Dark Force Temple:

Wizards of the Coast: The Dark Forces Saga 5 wrote:Kyle Katarn travelled there after learning of the witch world in ancient inscriptions, battling a host of Sith abominations in the planet's seemingly endless bogs before succumbing to the spell of the dark side of the Force.

LucasArts Continuity Supervisor Ryan Kaufman, starwars.com wrote:As he grew in knowledge and power, he realized they were Sith ruins. But some part of him was drawn to their dark call. So, without telling Mara why, he went off to investigate.

There Kyle finds and harnesses power that he describes as greater than any he'd ever known:

Kyle Katarn, Dark Forces II: Mysteries of the Sith wrote:“I found a greater source of power than I had ever known.”

Kyle Katarn, Mysteries of the Sith wrote:"Feel the power embrace you as your Jedi powers fail you!"

Kyle Katarn, redeemed, joined the Jedi Academy at Luke's request so he could better use his power:

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New Essential Chronology wrote:He located other candidates, including the clone Dorsk 81, the warrior woman Kirana Ti from Dathomir, and Corran Horn from Rogue Squadron. New Republic Commander Kyle Katarn also joined the first batch of students...
Dark Forces Saga Part 1, wizards.com wrote:Kyle realized he still carried the taint of the dark side from his conflict with Jerec. When Master Skywalker made a second offer to train him, Kyle immediately took him up on it, believing it would help him tame his dark feelings. Kyle developed a friendship with fellow Jedi trainee Corran Horn, but when two of Luke's students fell to the dark side, the anxiety Kyle felt about his earlier brush with darkness multiplied.
Abel G. Pena wrote:"I don't think Kyle was tied up doing something else during that series, he just wasn't mentioned by the writers of most of those books, same way Streen, Kirana Ti, and a bunch of others weren't. Even KJA didn't put the spotlight on all of his original Jedi-dozen in the Jedi Academy trilogy. Kyle's just in the background of the NJO like he was in the JA3."

Among Kyle's fellow students was Kyp Durron, who within a week was far more powerful than Kyle Katarn and the rest of the students:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Kyp travels to Yavin Four to join Luke’s Jedi academy. There, he immerses himself in work, and within days has surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students. He doesn’t socialize with the others, preferring to concentrate on honing his Jedi skills.
Official Star Wars Fact File 115 wrote:After escaping the Maw Installation, Kyp was enrolled as one of the first students at Luke Skywalker’s Jedi Academy on Yavin 4. There he quickly demonstrated formidable Force Powers, more than any of the other students.
Kyp Durron, Databank wrote:Skywalker’s first class of Jedi students was an eclectic mix of Force-attuned beings from across the galaxy. Kyp was easily the most powerful, and he quickly grew impatient at Skywalker’s pace of instruction.
I, Jedi wrote:Kyp proved almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there. With only a minimum of training, he blasted on past all of us in terms of what he could do.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:In little more than a week of intensive work, Kyp had surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students.
I, Jedi wrote:Kyp’s growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years.
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Kyp Durron falls under the sway of the spirit of Exar Kun, who augments Kyp's powers which increase Kyp's power to its fullest, making him more and more powerful as time passes by, Kyp spends months in this way:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:Exar Kun had shown him how to unleash great powers. Kyp did not trust the Sith Lord, but he could not deny the truth of what the shadow man taught. Kyp could see the power actually working.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:Kyp felt his skin tingling with barely contained power, as if his blood had begun to fizz inside of him. He moved down the temple corridors like a projectile, and when he reached the heavy door to his quarters, he used the force to fling it open and slam it against the far wall with enough strength to flake a long splinter of stone from the blocks.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:Exar Kun was long dead, and Darth Vader lay in ashes on Endor. "Now I am the Lord of the Sith," Kyp said. With that admission he felt a cold strength creep up his backbone, as if his spine had turned into a column of ice.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:Filled with a power he had decided to use to its fullest, he felt ready to explode in an exhilarating outpouring of the Force--but he could not let such childish demonstrations seduce him. He had a mission to accomplish, one that would affect the future of the entire galaxy.
Jedi Academy trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:When he reached out farther, he was stunned to feel a cold, black whirlpool of twisted Force around the peak of the temple. It stunned him.

The spirit of Exar Kun is a far greater threat than Kyp Durron is:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:His best students were going sour, getting impatient, trying to push the limits of their abilities. But he had sensed a greater, deeper menace that vibrated within the very stones of the Great Temple itself. . . evil, and well hidden.

Kueller is confirmed to be a whole other level of power beyond even this Kyp Durron, and is like the Emperor, even from great distances per Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade:

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.

New Rebellion wrote:“I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.”

New Republic wrote:Someone equally familiar. And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away. The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then. But this wasn’t Palpatine. This was someone else. Someone Luke had known.

Up close, Kueller's power is far more clear and he is repeatedly compared to Emperor Palpatine:

New Republic wrote:Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.

It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.

Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.

Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.

Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

Yet the spirit of Exar Kun is specifically noted to be an exception to Kueller's overall immense power:

New Rebellion wrote:She [Leia] wished she had the same certainty. This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

He was using these deaths to replenish his own well of hatred. The dark side ate people from within, but while it did so, it gave them too much power.

He appeared to have more power than she had. More power than Luke.

Exar Kun's spirit is blatantly with much more powerful incarnations of the Emperor than appears in Revenge of the Sith:

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Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

As we know from all available evidence that the spirit of Exar Kun as seen in Jedi Academy and I, Jedi is at best close to Tales of the Jedi Exar Kun:

Stats:

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The Authorities:

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The Source Material:

Sources from before The Sith War arc, which contains the ritual, all state the same thing and that is him desiring to restore his lost reserves of energy from when he was alive so that he can live again:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I want your anger, Gantoris. I want you to open the doorways of power. I am barred from the physical plane--but with enough other Sith followers, I could be at peace. I could even live again."

Sources such as The Essential Guide to the Force and Star Wars Galaxies also make it obvious that Kun was far from his upper limit, though clearly still had a lot of power left when relative to others:

- Corran Horn, Jedi vs Sith The Essential Guide to the Force. wrote:The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Suncrusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master.

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:Exar Kun's essence remains trapped in his temple on Yavin 4. The Dark Lord of the Sith is far from powerless, and he bides his time in his domain, waiting for just the right opportunity to return.

TALES OF THE JEDI PILLAR:

Exar Kun is stated to be the pinnacle of power, threat and danger in numerous sources:

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'Exar Kun Heroic Encounter', Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game wrote:In Star Wars®, it doesn't get much bigger than Exar Kun, the one-time Jedi who eventually became one of the most powerful Dark Lords of the Sith!
Star Wars Omnibus: Tales of the Jedi Vol.2 wrote:Nearly four thousand years before the birth of Luke Skywalker, the galaxy faces its greatest threat since the founding of the Republic!
In this time travel West End Games roleplaying game adventure, researchers go back in time from the Galactic Empire era to the trial of Ulic Qel-Droma, and Exar Kun is stated to be the supreme master of the Sith Order:
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One could go on some more, but Exar Kun is also more powerful than the likes of prime Karness Muur:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire.

Karness Muur is far more powerful in his prime than he is within Celeste Morne, who is an insufficient host and who prevents him from restoring his full power by going into slumber:

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Celeste is losing control to Karness Muur, which as the previous source indicates, means he is recovering his power:

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This proves that Karness Muur back at full power is, well:

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Karness Muur may be even more powerful than the most powerful incarnation of Darth Krayt so far, who is much more powerful than he appears in the main Legacy comics:

-Marvel, Darkhorse and StarWars.com website wrote:In a reckless bid to right one of his many past wrongs, Cade Skywalker has become a prisoner of the Sith. It's a banner day for Emperor Darth Krayt, who hopes that Skywalker's abilities will complete Krayt's longtime quest to restore his own power.

Darth Krayt himself is well within the sphere of the Revenge of the Sith 'titans' even in the main series:

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Exar Kun is also stated to be the darkest power in the galaxy, well before his prime as a Dark Lord:

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This makes Exar Kun more powerful than the amalgamative energy of the Dark Lords on Korriban:

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This same power allowed the Dark Lords to humble Emperor Palpatine around the Battle of Yavin:

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There is no way around this, the Revenge of the Sith power wall also has to contend with the enormous power and intent walls of Exar Kun who just clearly isn't beneath Darth Sidious no matter how many indirect supremacy quotes you have. Darth Plagueis is also clearly not near Darth Sidious.

Exar Kun utterly brutalizes Darth Plagueis with those 'secrets lost to the grave'.
Vaelias
Vaelias

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November 2nd 2021, 5:45 am
SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Darth-plagueis-star-wars


"Anakin knew it was true. He could feel it. And if Darth Plagueis could discover the secret, so could he. There was time. “I will become powerful enough to keep you from dying.”

...

"On the same day they had allowed Exar Kun to die. Then, by manipulating the Man's midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him. The enormity of the event had stunned George Walton Lucas into silence and overwhelmed and addled Hidalgo's processors, but Plagueis had carried on without assistance, again and again allowing Exar Kun to die and be returned to life, until the Man's organs had given out and Plagueis had finally granted him everlasting death."






AP wrote:The problem with your appeal is that it entirely relies on George W. Lucas to hold any water, but you haven't taken the most important and relevant quotes about Darth Plagueis from him into account:

Did I not? I meant to, its important!

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George Walton Lucas is never clear on this actually, he seems to be changing his mind as he has been known to do in the past but there are several things id like to note about this quote 

firstly... ahh you made me do this, lets take a look at the evidence


Lucas confirming MM and the Threshold
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I

Attack of the Clones Script (2002) wrote:PADMÉ: Sometimes there are things no one can fix. You're not all-powerful, Annie. ANAKIN turns and walks away from the bench. ANAKIN: (angry) I should be! Someday I will be... I will be the most powerful Jedi ever I promise you, I will even learn to stop people from dying
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II

Rolling Stones Interview (2005) wrote:Now, there’s a hint in the movie that there was a Sith lord who had the power to create life. But it’s left unsaid: Is Anakin a product of a super-Sith who influenced the midichlorians to create him, or is he simply created by the midichlorians to bring forth a prophecy, or was he created by the Force through the midichlorians? It’s left up to the audience to decide. How he was born ultimately has no relationship to how he dies, because in the end, the prophecy is true: Balance comes back to the Force
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III

George Lucas Attack of the Clones Commentary wrote:"The scene in the garage here, we begin to see that what he's really upset about is the fact that he's not powerful enough. That if he had more power, he could've kept his mother. He could've saved her and she could've been in his life. That relationship could've stayed there if he'd have been just powerful enough. He's greedy in that he wants to keep his mother around, he's greedy in that he wants to become more powerful in order to control things in order to keep the things around that he wants. There's a lot of connections here with the beginning of him sliding into the Dark Side. And it also shows his jealousy and anger at Obi-Wan and blaming everyone else for his inability to be as powerful as he wants to be
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IV

Revenge of the Sith (2005) wrote:Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith, so powerful and so wise he could use the Force to influence the midi-chlorians to create life 
...
 He became so powerful . . . the only thing he was afraid of was losing his power
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V

Anakin Skywalker: Databank (2011) wrote:Palpatine recounted an old Sith legend of Darth Plagueis the Wise. Palpatine explained that Plagueis, a Sith Lord, had abilities that some would describe as unnatural. Like an ancient alchemist, he could coax life out of midi-chlorians, either for the purpose of creating new life, or staving off death in others. This was the promised power of the Sith, suggested Palpatine. Anakin, who had been searching for a way to prevent Padmé from dying, listened intently.
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VI

George Lucas Attack of the Clones Commentary (2002) wrote:"The key part of this scene ultimately is Anakin saying "I'm not going to let this happen again." We're cementing his determination to become the most powerful JediThe only way you can really do that is to go to the Dark Side because the Dark Side is more powerfulIf you want the ultimate power you really have to go to the stronger side which is the Dark Side, but ultimately it would be your undoing. But it's that need for power and the need for power in order to satisfy your greed to keep things and to not let go of things and to allow the natural course of life to go on, which is that things come and go, and to be able to accept the changes that happen around you and not want to keep moments forever frozen in time."
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VII

Revenge of the Sith (2005) wrote:The Dark Side of the force is a pathway to many abilities some consider to be unnatural
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VIII

George Lucas - Star Wars Archives wrote:if you're going to sell your soul to save somebody you love that's as we say in the filmunnatural, you have to accept the natural course of life, death is obviously the biggest of them all
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IX

Hayden Christensen DVD Commentary Revenge of the Sith wrote:Palpatine shares a story, an old Sith tale about this Sith who has acquired these abilities and these powers which very much impresses Anakin at the very core of his fears and desires and this gets the wheels churning definitely
(Not Lucas but speaking on obvious intent)
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X

-George Lucas DVD Commentary Revenge of the Sith wrote:it moved the point were Anakin turns down to this moment right here and you see that now that its very clear that he's, he wants him to go on trial, so he can pump him for information about how to get these powers
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XI

George Lucas wrote:Anakin thinks he's done the right thing in killing all the Jedi, so George wanted me to come to the scene with enthusiasm. Things are good. I'm the most powerful man in the universe and im going to be able to save Padme
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XII

George Lucas - Star Wars Archives wrote:He hears that Padme died. He got put on the operating table before he got a chance to save her and she died. So it's more tailing at the gods or the fates that "given another month, I could've saved her" He thinks he was powerful enough on the landing platform before Obi-Wan intervened. so he looks at it as bad luck or fates that he couldn't get the thing accomplished in time to save his wife
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XIII

George Lucas The Making of Revenge of the Sith (2005) wrote:They're ready for close ups of Hayden, Lucas discusses the tone with him. "this is Anakin's greatest moment; he's got all these new powers- everything is fine
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XIV

George Lucas the Force Interview 2010 wrote:he made a pact with the devil, to be able to become all powerful, but of course when he did that, she didn't want anything to do with him anymore, so he lost her, once you are powerful, being able to bring her back from the dead. Well if I can do that then I can be emperor of the universe
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XV

George Lucas DVD Commentary Revenge of the Sith wrote:Its fear of losing somebody he loves which is the flip side of greed, greed in terms of the emperor... its the greed for power, absolute power over everything. With Anakin its really the power to save the one he loves, but its basically going against the fates and what is natural, but once he thinks he is going to get that power it begins to occur to him that he could have the power to be the emperor of the universe, just even more powerful... He realizes he could have the power to do anything he wants
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XVI

Darth Sidious - Databank wrote:Plagueis could, it was said, coax the midi-chlorians present in all living cells to create life from nothingness
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Lucas opposing MM 
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Revenge of the Sith Script wrote:QUI -GON: (V.O.) Patience. You will have time. I did not. When I became one with the Force I made a great discovery. With my training, you will be able to merge with the Force at will. Your physical self will fade away, but you will still retain your consciousness. You will become more powerful than any Sith.

YODA: Eternal consciousness.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) The ability to defy oblivion can be achieved, but only for oneself. It was accomplished by a Shaman of the Whills. It is a state acquired through compassion, not greed.

YODA: . . . to become one with the Force, and influence still have . . . A power greater than all, it is.

QUI-GON: (V.O.) You will learn to let go of everything. No attachment, no thought of self. No physical self.

YODA: A great Jedi Master, you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. Your apprentice I gratefully become.

YODA thinks about this for a minute, then BAIL ORGANA enters the room and breaks his meditation.
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granted a few are from POV's but that's 2 vs 16 quotes directly from Lucas and the G-Canon Databanks, and im not even going to do a comparison for the EU, the following that you provided are probably the only pieces of I guess you could say 'evidence' 


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and all these can be attributed to their opinions which essentially invalidates them and makes it 0 for the EU and 1 for Lucas, Qui-Gon may know all, but I doubt after having transformed into the force and gaining immense power and immortality Qui-Gon would even consider Plagueis' twisted unnatural dark side methods to be 'true immortality' so these don't really change much here, but are you seriously going to try and argue that Plagueis cannot cheat death ? The ROTS Novel is part of the EU where we literally see Plagueis perform the feat, which is clearly intended to indeed be the power mentioned in ROTS and it indeed be the same Plagueis. 


notice how in the same scan he goes on to still talk about a threshold
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the quote you provided shows Lucas still agrees a threshold exists, but is just saying its a scam because he doesn't believe anyone can do it, but he has said in the past anyways that he is leaving it up to the audience. its also possible the 'scam' could simply be referring to Palpatine and when George Walton Lucas says "they" he means the Sith in general not Sidious and Plagueis, and we go from learning that 'there was a sith who could save others' to 'I can show you how to do it' to 'only one guy did this I need your help' so indeed there is a scam going on anyways, this quote likely excludes Plagueis on the basis that George Walton Lucas doesn't seem to think Plagueis even exists, so he would not be included in "they" meaning "they" must mean the Sith we see in the movies, who we know cant do it anyway. but none of that would even preclude a threshold. the threshold is not even effected so my argument holds completely anyways.

but I think you are missing the point here

The EU is what turns this into "MM" to Lucas all we know is of this insane power threshold, the threshold existed before ROTS and the story of Plagueis, and it exists independently regardless of Plagueis' existence or whether the movie sith can do it or not, and even if we ignore all of this, since the release of the Plagueis novel this can simply be brushed off as a continuity error, George Walton Lucas has said many other things like Sith spirits don't exist and that Luke never gets married, this issue can be brushed off just as simply, George Walton Lucas should only be dismissed when in direct contradiction in rare cases like these. All that matters is how powerful he thinks the threshold is.

- 1 vs 16  
- Implications do not even favor your argument 
- can be brushed off as a simple continuity error 
- we literally see Plagueis do the feat 
- Pablo agrees

the threshold is a level established as early as AOTC, Plagueis' position there exists only providing he did actually accomplish the feat, it exists independently of any character nobody belongs to it definitively, it was a level conceived before the character that was placed there was even conceived therefore there is no weight to it, its not holding any bind. any character placed at this level after the fact, should supersede any binds, due to its G-Canon nature.

when the Plagueis Novel was created, in continuity the answer to whether Plagueis could do this became a definitive yes, so yes Plagueis can do this and how powerful does George think that level is regardless of Plagueis or any story told to Anakin ?? he thinks it is X powerful, as I outlined above, so Plagueis automatically scales from that threshold post confirmation.

AP wrote:George Lucas has an enormous hand in the Revenge of the Sith Novelization and even more so in the script for the actual movie.
ahh the same novel where George reads and agrees with Sidious being the "Master of all Sith" and being the culmination of the Banite plan that's purpose was to make the Sith greater than ever, again, unfortunately for you Kun doesn't have anything to anchor him above such a strong bind, unlike Plagueis who has a G-Canon Anchor explicitly above the bind in question. 

Lucas at the time of the ROTS novel edits doesn't think Plagueis exists so him line editing this doesn't affect anything for Plagueis, especially since he is jumping to a level Lucas has a fixed opinion on prior.

AP wrote:It is absolutely beyond doubt that the supposed powers over life and death being described in Revenge of the Sith are NOT possible and never were, this is a hard stated fact from George Walton Lucas himself and is embedded within the deepest strata of the Revenge of the Sith plot.
arguing Plagueis never accomplished the feat and that it doesn't exist is futile, it would be like trying to argue Luke never actually marries Mara Jade


AP wrote:The problem is not and never was whether or not Darth Plagueis existed or whether his powers in his novel are true, only that the powers described in the movies are absolutely not the same thing because they can't be
Well it is the same power, its obvious the intent for the Plagueis novel was to make it true that Plagueis actually did do this and that these are the same powers, its absurd to think the opposite, its not just a coincidence that this character called Plagueis just happens to show powers over life and death, yeh totally not what's talked about in the movie  SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 3750555731

Pablo Hidalgo and Sansweet also agree that Plagueis 'discovered' this power when talking about ROTS, I mean its literally the process of Manipulating Midi-Chlorians, the exact same thing we see in the book
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"On the same day they had allowed Venamis to die. Then, by manipulating the Bith’s midi-chlorians, which should have been inert and unresponsive, Plagueis had resurrected him"




so I guess you will have to concede that Plagueis does actually do the feat, there is quite simply no denying it, now how powerful does Lucas think the threshold for this feat is ?

its that simple, Plagueis is canonically at the threshold which is clearly > Kun and by a significant margin 


AP wrote:Whatever Plagueis achieves in the Luceno novel CANNOT be what is described in Revenge of the Sith per George Lucas and thus your only bind for Darth Plagueis to the 'titans' of Revenge of the Sith such as Darth Sidious, is completely and utterly contradictory to G-canon and thus he falls under the very supremacy quotes that you have provided for all of us
then I guess Luke CANNOT have actually married Mara Jade, Sith CANNOT become spirts and the Jedi and Sith CANNOT have fought any wars before the Prequels, this can very easily be reconciled in the same way, its clear its the same issue based on the overwhelming evidence we have for and against, do you need me to make a list of "For Luke getting married" and "against Luke getting married" and see how those odds weigh up too ??  SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 2266747095


AP wrote:he falls under the very supremacy quotes that you have provided for all of us.
well technically not anyways, since the release of the Plagueis Novel postdates the quotes, unlike with Kun.




Well Lucas says that Luke is "not that good" "barely trained", Vader, his equal, is an "old man" "flunky" "cyborg" on the other hand Qui-Gon is a "real Jedi, "True Jedi" so all that scaling is kinda moot

George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Prime Of The Jedi Webisode wrote:"I was looking for a kind of swordfighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we'd already done, but a more energized version of it -- because we've never actually seen real Jedis at work, we'd only seen, y'know, old men and crippled, half-droid half-men, and young boys that'd learned from these people. So, to see a, a Jedi, fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and, and faster version of what we've been doing."
here Lucas says the Jedi of the prequels are more energetic and faster, than Luke as well, so this cannot be attributed to Vader's Cybernetics, he wanted it faster and more agile, specifically because this is the prime of the Jedi


Lucas also says that Vader is simply < PT simply because of Cybernetics, so no matter how his power fluctuated in the suit, he is still always sub PT because of the suit


they are at the height of their powers, due to them not being cripples or old men, or Jedi, this means "power" refers to power in the force and not population or influence, because being an old man or a cripple would not even preclude those options 

Star Wars Storyboards: The Prequel Trilogy - George Lucas wrote:Maul comes flying out of nowhere on his hovercycle and nearly flattens Anakin. Qui-Gon leaps to the rescue. "In the old films," George said, Obi-Wan was an old man and Darth Vader was a cripple. This is the first time we've ever seen a Sith and a Jedi clash at the height of their powers. I want it fast, like a cockfight."

Lucas wants it fast, specifically because they are at the height of their powers which further confirms the context of the word "power" in all the height of the Jedi's power and Prime of the Jedi quotes

Star Wars Episode I: Prime of the Jedi Webisode - George Lucas wrote:“I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it, because we’d actually never seen real Jedi at work - we’d only seen old men and crippled half-droid half-men, and young boys that had learned from these people. So to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’d been doing.”
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Full of Sith - Episode LXIX: Origins and Nick Gillard wrote:Q. I’ve noticed that - especially when compared to the older three movies - the lightsaber duels are a lot faster and more intricate. Was that something you had in mind the entire time or was that something that evolved as the process moved forward? A. “No, I was asked to come up with it new, because they were in their prime. In the first ones, they were old guys that hadn’t fought for a long time and it was a new movie and that’s when they knew how to do it. When they asked me to do this one they asked me to come up with this new kind of martial art, and that’s what I did - they were in their prime, they were young men and women. It was an easy thing to do, to give them a fresh start."

the Jedi of the Prequels including Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul are specifically better at fighting and more powerful due to actually being trained properly and not being cripples or washed up old men, anything from resurrection or anything from the EU is simply trumped by Lucas' commentary.

Vader is weaker than Maul

AP wrote:Darth Vader is far more powerful than Kar Vastor who has power 'on the scale' of early Clone Wars era Anakin Skywalker and Yoda:
Eh doubtful the G-Canon consensus is still Anakin > Vader during AOTC, Pablo Hidalgo straight up says it 


SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Image0


im afraid confirmation from a high ranking LFL Official speaking on Lucas' behalf trumps any scaling you have, It is directly going against Lucas Narrative here, Vader simply CANNOT be > Anakin, that still one of the hardest Lucas binds, especially since AOTC Anakin "creams" Darth Maul who is canonically > Vader. 


AP wrote:Among Kyle's fellow students was Kyp Durron, who within a week was far more powerful than Kyle Katarn and the rest of the students
Who much later is still weaker than Anakin Solo who should still be solidly below AOTC Anakin being 1) younger 2) less potential 3) less training 


The New Jedi Order - Star by Star wrote:He reached out with the Force to identify himself, and felt a presence almost as strong as his own in return.
"Request you break off," he said. "You'll cause some trouble for us—for all of us."
"Trouble, yes," the familiar voice of Kyp Durron replied, "but not for us."

1)


Anakin Skywalker in AOTC is 19 years old 
Anakin Solo in SBS is 17 years old

2)

I know what people will be thinking "oh Anakin solo has equal or more potential than Anakin" this simply is not true, during the NJO and the time where Anakin Solo was being written to be this > Luke prodigy, a Luke who was made out to be = Anakin at the time too, but this was before the prequels, when Anakin was just a powerful force user, not the literal incarnation of the force itself, the chosen one and the prophecy were not yet concepts at this time, Anakin's supremacy is further enforced in the Clone Wars Mortis Arc where it is specifically "only the chosen one" who could possibly have a chance at taming Eipha and Niphal, these positions are retconned


3)

Vergere describes the NJO Jedi as half trained in comparison to TPM, Note Vergere is a very old wise character intended to be correct by the writers 
Vergere wrote:"What became of it, then?" Vergere paced back and forth before Jacen, the patchy feathers on her frame fluffing and then smoothing again. "Perhaps you can tell me what has happened to the Republic in my absence. Tell me why the thousands of Jedi Knights I expected to contact on my return no longer exist, why there are only a few score half-trained young Jedi in their place, and what all of this has to do with this Sith Lord you mentioned on Coruscant, this Vader, your grandfather, whom I remember as that turbulent little Padawan, Anakin Skywalker."

Luke would not even know techniques from Mace, and much knowledge and techniques for training and progression are lost from PT to NJO 
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Luke even heavily implies the Jedi are not yet back to their former glory
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and straight up says that NJO Jedi are not as powerful, also likely including himself 
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AP wrote:Kueller is confirmed to be a whole other level of power beyond even this Kyp Durron, and is like the Emperor, even from great distances per Luke Skywalker and Mara Jade:


(1) New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn't felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor. Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain.


(2) New Rebellion wrote:“I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.”


(3) New Rebellion wrote:Someone equally familiar. And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away. The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then. But this wasn’t Palpatine. This was someone else. Someone Luke had known.

the middle quote debunks itself and the whole Kueller - Sidious comparison tbh, the fact that it says "I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days" reveals that she doesn't have a measure of Palpatine in the later days, which calls into question the credibility of the whole comparison, because how can we be sure he ever revealed his true power at all even in these "early days" if his full power, later on is ambiguous, and the power they are sensing would not even be including the power the emperor is spreading throughout the galaxy either, there is no possible way for the people making these claims to know the true measure of Sidious and they openly do not.


Thus, Kueller is most likely nowhere near ROTJ Sidious which breaks this whole link.


AP wrote:Exar Kun's spirit is blatantly with much more powerful incarnations of the Emperor than appears in Revenge of the Sith:
Well, not really seeing as both the Vader and the Sidious links don't exist, so all we have left as a link is ROTS Sidious being stated to be > Kun over 10 times, forming the Sidious GOAT Narrative, which would simply override the scaling anyways. 



AP wrote:As we know from all available evidence that the spirit of Exar Kun as seen in Jedi Academy and I, Jedi is at best close to Tales of the Jedi Exar Kun:
Close to the Kun who is not too far off Luke, who is later in awe of the power of Ben Kenobi and actively puts himself below, that doesn't look good for Kun 


AP wrote:This same power allowed the Dark Lords to humble Emperor Palpatine around the Battle of Yavin:
a severely weakened Palpatine in a shit clone that can only contain a fraction of his power
- seeking strictly knowledge
- those spirits specifically noted to be less powerful than Sidious
- Retconned anyways to be the Immortal Gods of the Sith as of this debate 


and so there is no link to Sidious here either.





Now this seems to be your proposed scaling chain

Living Kun > JA Kun > Kueller >~ ROTJ Sheev > Kyp > Katarn > Jerec ~ Suit Vader > Vastor ~ Anakin & Yoda > Maul

Accurate Link doesn't even exist, current one rebuts itself, debunked
Lucas, Hidalgo and Gillard all disagree, debunked

which leaves you with the mightiest of chains........

Living Kun > JA Kun > Kyp > Katarn > Jerec

So I might have to concede that Kun beats Jerec  SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 1471176647

Plagueis is not even mentioned in your scaling, so with the Sidious GOAT Narrative unaddressed and my argument unaffected, nothing changes and Plagueis remains firmly where I have established him!

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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

November 2nd 2021, 6:55 am
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DARTH PLAGUEIS

See the initial problem with your entire basis is that you're conflating George Lucas's concepts of the powers he is describing with what James Luceno puts in his book. You have to do this for your entire argument to hold any water, I am saying that your leap in your logic cannot factually be true. This is not merely another case of 'George Lucas says it didn't happen but it did in the EU anyway', no. This is a case of George saying the powers we are discussing didn't and cannot happen, and writing that into every version of Revenge of the Sith except the movie, from the script to the novel to the junior novel.

None of the other statements matter in your argument bar his, because he is the crux of your entire placement of Darth Plagueis, only he can place him where you claim he has been. If he contradicts this notion, then he isn't the anchor you require him to be for you to avoid your own logic box of claiming all Sith prior to Sidious are bound beneath him, which includes Darth Plagueis. Your whole argument collapses in on itself in this manner.

You seem to not be understanding the core issue but let's also scan your own 'supporting' evidence; which again is irrelevant here because it's not Lucas, the novel itself is against you.

First of all, Azronger is not an authority, he certainly isn't the author of Darth Plagueis, nor is he in the book:

Azronger (not Darth Plagueis) wrote:Darth Plagueis the Wise mastered reality itself. Fundamental concepts like life, death, order and chaos were like playthings to him. He did this without the aid of empires, without rituals, without countless centuries of planning and experimentation; he did this merely by sitting in his laboratory on Aborah, and willing it so. He became so powerful that he could even procreate new midi-chlorians in his body, and as midi-chlorians numerically dictate one’s Force potential, this is synonymous with growing more powerful just by thinking about it. If Sidious had not murked Plagueis in his sleep, the ensuing would be a harrowing prospect indeed:

Proof:
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LINK: http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f6/t649256.html

Much more importantly, the very sources you provide work against you:

Darth Plagueis wrote:This was no Sith trick. Not an instance of feigning death, but one of succumbing to its cold embrace. The being who had guided him to power was gone. Wry amusement narrowed his eyes. The Muun might have lived another hundred years unchanged. He might have lived forever had he succeeded fully in his quest.

So.... he didn't then? Perhaps you can clarify this for me, but it looks to me like a lot of 'mights' mixed with 'shoulda, coulda, woulda'. In other words, he didn't succeed and never gained the power, even in the novel you're claiming says he did.

Because I'm right, like George Lucas said Sidious is lying and it was never a possibility. Re-read all the third party statements you posted in your first post and the litany in your second, you'll notice pretty much every last one refuses to take that next step 'it was said', 'Sidious said', 'Sith legends', 'tales' and 'stories'.

I am not saying that Plagueis didn't achieve great things, I'm saying he didn't achieve what Lucas is talking about, because we're told he didn't. That's the only important aspect of your argument because the rest relies on that.

C-canon Midichlorian Manipulation is this:

Barely Tolerable Alien Henchmen in the Empire Part 3 wrote:The Umbaran also used her peculiar talents to root out survivors of Order 66 and, for a time, supervised a pair of Shi’ido scientists, Mammon Hoole and Borborygmus Gog, as they conducted experiments in abiogenesis — the spontaneous generation of life. To that end, Moore provided them with a female Bordali test subject. However, Moore herself had come into the possession of Force-sensitive DNA from an undisclosed source and was deeply interested in a technique once perfected by Darth Plagueis: influencing the midi-chlorians to create a zygote in a fertile female.

You writing out a list of quotes and then comparing them like this is something to do with data points isn't gonna fly Vaelias. You have to prove categorically that the G-canon MM power levels and the C-canon MM we all know is absolutely the same thing, but it's not. See, your idea basically means 'anyone who can do this has a Darth Sidious comparison'. In C-canon, Plagueis is not the only one with it and clearly has not achieved the level that Lucas describes.

VAELIAS REBUTTALS TO THE CHAIN

I'm going to shorten your response to these quotes:

anything from resurrection or anything from the EU is simply trumped by Lucas' commentary.

It would be if you had provided a single quote actually stating Darth Maul has more raw power in the Force, which none of your quotes state. The TPM crew show and display more augmentative ability than Vader or Luke, for an array of reasons. None of the quotes you actually provided say anything about Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan Kenobi or Darth Maul having more raw power in the Force.

The only quote you provided that might come close is this one:

Star Wars Storyboards: The Prequel Trilogy - George Lucas wrote:Maul comes flying out of nowhere on his hovercycle and nearly flattens Anakin. Qui-Gon leaps to the rescue. "In the old films," George said, Obi-Wan was an old man and Darth Vader was a cripple. This is the first time we've ever seen a Sith and a Jedi clash at the height of their powers. I want it fast, like a cockfight."

I shouldn't need to explain this to you, but he is referring to the speed of the fight, again. These are them fighting the way 'real' Jedi and Sith do, Luke is never trained in the lightsaber styles of the Jedi and Vader's physical limitations literally prevent him.

So your so-called debunk has achieved absolutely nothing here.

@Vaelias wrote:Eh doubtful the G-Canon consensus is still Anakin > Vader during AOTC, Pablo Hidalgo straight up says it

Pablo Hidalgo only says that the 'skill and power' Anakin 'shows' as a young man is greater, and immediately clarifies that he is talking about 'lightsaber prowess' which Vader's physical limitations prevent him from matching. Then literally says that although Luke is 'not as skillful or acrobatic' as the 'young Jedi of the prequels'(Anakin) he is 'still a formidable opponent and very strong in the Force':

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Thanks for proving my point further for me.

Also, I literally only showed that Kar Vastor is stated to be  'on the scale of' of the two, not their equal, and that Vader is stated to be far more powerful. So even if you were right, which you aren't, my chain doesn't budge.

Who much later is still weaker than Anakin Solo who should still be solidly below AOTC Anakin being 1) younger 2) less potential 3) less training

1.Anakin Solo is stated to be either 16 and a half or 17.

2.Anakin Solo having less potential than Anakin Skywalker is something you have to prove and not appeal to incredulity over. If Anakin Solo has evidence putting him over Anakin Skywalker then it wins out over technical prophecy tricks.

3.Anakin Solo started training younger than Anakin Skywalker.... he was even exercising his Force power in the womb to help defeat Dark Emperor Palpatine:

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@Vaelias wrote:the middle quote debunks itself and the whole Kueller - Sidious comparison tbh, the fact that it says "I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days" reveals that she doesn't have a measure of Palpatine in the later days, which calls into question the credibility of the whole comparison

This might be the worst claim you have made yet.

1.Mara Jade's 'early days' comparison, isn't specific at all. We don't if she means early Empire days or if she means Dark Empire which is six years ago at this point in the timeline.

2.Mara Jade is stating what she can feel across the planet through the Almania nexus energies fogging up her senses. As I have stated and as we know from Luke's POV, his power gets much stronger and clearer the closer you are.

3.Even if you were right about Mara being flawed, it's her, Luke, Leia and the narrator all consistently saying the same things.

In no way is this debunked at all by Mara Jade's opinion.


@Vaelias wrote:Well, not really seeing as both the Vader and the Sidious links don't exist,

You've failed to break any point of the chain in any way.

EXAR KUN

In Return of the Jedi Luke Skywalker is handily besting Darth Vader:

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As we have established, even before his prime Darth Vader is 'far more powerful' than a Kar Vastor 'on the scale' of Attack of the Clones Anakin and Yoda, and he can 'destroy' TPM Maul and Palpatine's Dark Side Prophets simultaneously, with the Force.

The Darth Vader that Luke is defeating is not merely this, however:

Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

We also know that as of 2012, Return of the Jedi Darth Vader is his strongest suited incarnation so far:

Darth Vader: Return Of Anakin Skywalker wrote:More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star.

So Luke Skywalker is capable of defeating a prime, amplified Darth Vader, whilst simultaneously resisting the corrupting powers of Emperor Palpatine:

The Movie Trilogy Sourcebook wrote:Still, even these were not insurmountable problems: with young Skywalker at his side, all could be made right again. But the boy found it inside himself to rise above the Emperor’s compelling power, and thwarted Palpatine's attempts to turn him to the dark side. In some baffling way, that young whelp was stronger than him! This was intolerable!
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Image011
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In Revenge of the Sith we know Darth Sidious could use a dark side confusion haze to reduce Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin and Agen Kolar to speedblitz tier with his power:

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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Unknow19
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And, by the way, Sidious far before then is able to 'cloud' the mind of Darth Plagueis up to his death:

Darth Sidious to Darth Plagueis, Star Wars: Darth Plagueis wrote:"You may be wondering: when did he begin to change? The truth is that I haven’t changed. As we have clouded the minds of the Jedi, I clouded yours."

The dark side of the Force itself, is also 'actively and desperately' trying to convert Luke Skywalker at the same time:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Image111

So Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker is able to surpass entirely the mental capabilities of Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, Agen Kolar and even apparently Darth Plagueis 'the wise', whilst defeating an enraged and empowered version of Darth Vader, who feels humiliated.

Over the next seven years, Luke grows exponentially:

Dark Empire End-notes wrote:Through the long years of struggle, Luke grew more and more adept in the skills of a Jedi.

Dark Emperor Palpatine is now massively stronger:

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Palpatine held a power over Luke that C'baoth never could. Where Luke felt concern and even pity for C'baoth, Palpatine's power seemed overwhelming. The Emperor was not a mad, deluded shadow of a once great man; he was a conscious, willing participant in corruption for its own sake. Luke apprenticed himself to the Emperor of his own free will. Palpatine was so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and find its weaknesses. Luke had chosen his destiny: to understand the Dark Side from within and to use that knowledge to conquer it.

And Palpatine can now almost dominate Luke at will:

Dark Empire Audio Drama wrote:Palpatine's hologram: ...and I have come to realize that the dark side is my only ally. The dark side is the only means to power.

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: Be quiet, R2, I don't care about the time, but can you do something about the heat? I suddenly... feel... cold...

Palpatine's hologram: My explorations of the Force have revealed to me many wonderful secrets.

Luke: Cold... like a dead hand pressing on my heart...

Palpatine's hologram: I have learned that Anger and Will, when joined together, forge a most unholy and devastating alliance.

Luke: Maybe R2's right... time to leave... but it's like a great weight... pressing down on me... I... can't move... can't... leave...

Palpatine's hologram: Using Anger, I have learned to unlock the hidden reservoirs of the glorious dark side power.

Luke: No...

Palpatine's hologram: Anger concentrated by Will in the vital center of the body creates a portal, through which vast energies are released. The energies of the dark side of the Force. This is the power I command, now that I am one with the dark side.

Luke: Is this what my father felt?

Palpatine's hologram: With these energies, I have slain my enemies across the empty reaches of space.

Luke: I shouldn't... listen...

Palpatine's hologram: I have created lightning, and unleashed devastating fires.

Luke: ...but I can't... stop...

Palpatine's hologram: With this knowledge, I can unleash dark side energies that swirl invisibly around us, even to shatter the fabric of space itself. In this way, I have created Storms.

Luke: Got... to break... free!

R2-D2: (beeb beeb)

Luke: I'm... alright, R2. (panting). This place... is still strong with the dark side. And the presence of the Emperor, even in a hologram, is almost overpowering.

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:After a brief lightsaber battle, the Emperor subdued Luke and broke his will.

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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 59278410

Luke breaks free of this due to Leia and his will becomes immune to the Emperor's:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 59278410

The Dark Emperor grows in power since Luke's fall:

Dark Empire wrote:Even now, as Luke appears to fall under the Emperor's ever-expanding power, massive engines of destruction are inflicting death blows to the floating cities of the Calamari, long-standing allies of the Rebel Alliance...

Dark Empire wrote:But the Emperor cannot be overcome so easily. He gives Leia a painful demonstration of his ever-expanding power, crowing in triumph that he has finally captured the last of the Jedi!

And in a new body, the Dark Emperor is more powerful than ever:

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:Luke knew that without clones to inhabit, Palpatine's spirit would be consigned forever to the void. But Palpatine was able to transfer himself at the last moment. Within a new clone body, the Emperor was more powerful than ever.

Luke is thus far beyond the stomp gap range most powerful version of the Dark Emperor's telepathy, corruption and especially his augmentation:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 59300310

Luke Skywalker is now capable of turning the Dark Emperor's knowledge against him and 'overpowering' him in the Force by joining his mind with Leia's:

TOM: At the time I sent in my original proposal, I didn’t quite know how the story would end, except that Luke and Leia would overpower the Emperor by joining their minds in the Force. Tim had a problem with that, of course. He said my idea was “an insult to the Star Wars philosophy”. He said that the idea that Luke and Leia would use mental power to destroy the Emperor was “completely and absolutely WRONG.” [his caps]

Q: Weird.

TOM: Well, I think he might have misunderstood what I wrote in the proposal, about “whole areas of the dark mind falling to the light side of the Force…” I also said that at that moment “everything Luke has learned about the dark side is transmuted and turned against the Emperor.”

LINK: http://starwarsinterviews1.blogspot.com/2020/07/exclusive-16-pages-of-dark-empire.html

Kevin J. Anderson wrote:Q: You did have a lot of experience behind the scenes really putting this universe together…

A: At the time, we were all a team of authors. I was in contact with Dave Wolverton, Kathy Tyers, Mike Stackpole, and Tim Zahn, along with Tom Veitch a great deal with Tales of the Jedi comics. We were like a small team exchanging ideas. Tim Zahn would plant something in The Last Command that I picked up on in Jedi Search, and we did that sort of stuff. I’ve been out of the loop for a while, I’m not sure if LucasFilm writers do the same thing now, but we had a great little team who were building the history of this universe. We were like the worker bees building a foundation.

Dark Empire II Luke Skywalker is thus far, far beyond the likes of the 'Titans' of the Revenge of the Sith by any and all manner of comparison, with the Emperor as common denominator.

Luke Skywalker goes on to become Master of the Jedi Academy on Yavin Four where the infamous events of his encounter with the spirit of Exar Kun take place. Firstly however, I want to establish author intention.

Kevin J. Anderson and Tom Veitch actively cooperated so that the Dark Empire, Tales of the Jedi and Jedi Academy series were interwoven. Kevin J. Anderson even wrote the last six issues of the Dark Lords of the Sith series of Tales of the Jedi:

Kevin J. Anderson wrote:I got to working with Tom Veitch in order to make his Dark Empire comics series and my Star Wars novels tie together. My Jedi Academy Trilogy has a character, Exar Kun, who is a spirit from 4,000 years in the past and Tom was writing his Tales of the Jedi series set 4,000 years in the past. I asked him if I could write a guest issue telling the origin of Exar Kun, but Tom was thinking much bigger. He said, "Let's do this grand epic where we pit your guy against my characters in a big war that wrecks half the galaxy." That certainly sounded more fun than a guest issue. So I worked with him on Dark Lords of the Sith. We plotted the whole 12 issues together, even though I wrote the last six of them solo.

LINK: https://www.darkhorse.com/Interviews/667/Kevin-J-Anderson

Tom Veitch wrote:Q: In Dark Empire’s appendixes, part of the history of Ulic Qel Droma and Nomi Sunrider was told. It also showed the relationship of certain characters like Vodo Baas and Vima Da Boda with the Tales of the Jedi saga, which helped to give more cohesion to the Star Wars universe over those years. Had you already thought ahead about telling this story in comics?

TOM: The TALES OF THE JEDI series was under development while I was working on DARK EMPIRE, so it was easy to build inner connections. As a matter of fact, I proposed Tales of the Jedi to LucasArts right after the first issue of Dark Empire came out. The lady at LucasArts said "George will never go for this." But he loved it and once again gave us carte blanche.

LINK: http://starwarsinterviews1.blogspot.com/2020/07/exclusive-16-pages-of-dark-empire.html

Exar Kun is able to bind Luke Skywalker's soul to his existence, and is close to being powerful enough to claim him entirely:

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Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.III: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."
Jacen Solo, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.
Kirana Ti, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

Luke Skywalker states that he actually became more powerful when becoming a Force spirit in his fight against Exar Kun:

New Rebellion wrote:Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.

Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.

After Exar Kun's defeat, this is stated about Luke Skywalker:

Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.III: Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

So Luke Skywalker is definitively in his absolute prime of power by this point, and yet we know his powers alone aren't enough to defeat Exar Kun's spirit:

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Galaxy Magazine 8: The Deadly Dozen wrote:Millennia later, Kun’s spirit was freed by Kyp Durron, a Jedi student of Luke Skywalker. It would take the power of a group of Jedi students and Skywalker himself to defeat Kun and banish his spirit.

Luke himself specifically remembers the power 'flowing' through him during the bond with the others:

Children of the Jedi wrote:"Yes,” said Luke, remembering the power of the Force flowing into him as he’d battled Exar Kun for the final time,

So it takes Luke Skywalker in a form more powerful than normal, a Kyle Katarn who I've already established is incredibly powerful in his own right, the spirit of Vodo-Siosk Baas, and a dozen Jedi trainees, all combining their power to defeat Exar Kun.

Who is in his weakest state and had been goaded into a trap he wasn't ready for:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She supposes that the students have a chance of defeating him, since Kun no longer has his servants to draw power from, he[Streen] is his only source.

I, Jedi wrote:Gantoris was on Yavin just over two weeks before his death, which could be seen as a cap to one cycle. Kyp arrived a week or so later and was here just over a week before he stole the Headhunter. Inside a week he came back and dropped Luke like a hot rock. By rights the dark man should have been back preying on us within days after Luke's defeat, but he wasn't, and this frightened me.
*
The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Sun Crusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master. There was no telling how long it would take for him to recover.
*
"I know I can buy us time, but not much. At the rate he recovers, Kun should be ready for something tomorrow, maybe tonight."
*
My thinking was that Kun, still taxed from his having funneled enough power through Streen to create that cyclone, would take the chance at having Streen use the Headhunter to kill Luke.
*
"Council of war, good. Right now, not good." I sighed. "Kun has been defeated tonight. He's not going to be coming back right away."
*
"Right. It will have to shine so brightly no shadow can withstand it." I looked around at all of them. "That's your job. When he comes for Luke again, you give him more light than he can ever handle."
*
"Not going to happen." I leaned forward, holding myself up by posting my arms on the table. "Up to this point, Exar Kun has acted on his own schedule. He's moved when he wants to move, done what he's wanted to do. Not anymore. Tomorrow evening, as night is coming on, we'll force him to act. He won't be ready, but he'll think he can still beat us. He'll be wrong."
*
I managed a weak smile. "Bait. Kun's heading into a trap. A big trap."
*
She weighed my words. "Any chance he can get out of it?"
*
"Shouldn't be able to. It really is over for him."

So when we get quotes such as Kevin J. Anderson writing this about the spirit of Exar Kun in his books:

Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.III: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

It certainly follows then that the portrayals are intended on their part to reflect this, and they do. Everything from stats to material statements to author clarification from both Tom Veitch and Kevin J. Anderson; as well as common sense, makes it a concrete canonical fact that Exar Kun in Tales of the Jedi is more powerful than he is in Jedi Academy Trilogy.

People seem to believe that 'TOTJ Kun just doesn't have feats and accolades as good as JA Kun', thus indicating that it's not true, three things:

1.Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, if he is stated to be better in Tales of the Jedi then he simply is, no arbitrary reasoning required.

2.This claim comes from the fact that living Kun is perceived to have not done as many impressive things, but in reality what people are actually stating is that because TOTJ Kun hasn't done things to Luke or Sheev calibers in his own time then he's not as good. Perhaps I need remind you, but the reason they aren't in his era is because they're not born for 3,900-4,000 years later. Kun is the absolute dominant force of his era, and he has no competition specifically because he's that much better than everyone else.

3.I don't even see how this can be held to be true:

3.A. Exar Kun in life has so much power that he's effecting the cosmic Force across the universe:

Cargo Bay, starwars.com wrote:In the remote reaches of the Star Wars universe, an ancient and deadly power has been reawakened by a foolish and arrogant young Jedi. He will begin a quest to become a Dark Lord of the Sith, and every galaxy will be threatened by his power.

Cargo Bay, starwars.com wrote:In the depths of galactic space, a foolish and arrogant young Jedi awakes an ancient, deadly power. This seductive evil will lead him down a path that will make him a Dark Lord of the Sith, and his darkling power will make the very galaxies tremble.

3.B. Exar Kun in life 'struck down' the light side of the Force with Sith magic:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Screen19

3.C. Exar Kun in life was going to grow more powerful on his own, than he achieved with the ritual energies:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Image012

Before we continue, we must add layers of context onto that last point, first of all we know Exar Kun used a great deal of his power to prevent massively greater destruction to his temples than would have been:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Screen84

He also used an enormous amount of said power to ascend into his boundless state:

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Images24

He also uses some of that power to encyst himself in the network of temples:

Exar Kun, Databank wrote:Finally, a joint Republic and Jedi taskforce came to Yavin 4 to capture Exar Kun. He knew he could not survive the attack, so he summoned his dark side energies and trapped his consciousness into the temples his Massassi warriors had built for him.

And yet more of that power to actually increase his own, becoming what the Jedi perceived as 'all-powerful':

SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Unknow20

So the power that Exar Kun uses to actually defend himself from the strike, is not even close to the totality of the power he gains.

But, what is also telling is the fact that he will actually become 'too great' for the Jedi to stop, that's something that happens regardless of ritual power, eventually. Now, this is where Exar Kun's power growth comes into play because really, his starting point in Tales of the Jedi is literally at most two years before the battle of Yavin four. On the grand scale of Exar Kun's power growth; he starts out as less powerful than the shade of Freedon Nadd and then becomes multiple times stronger than that by the time of Ulic's betrayal. It's stated in the comic that the time between Kun dueling Ulic and the beginning of the Sith War arc is merely six months, so it's arguable that the entire ordeal is a year at most. So, how far off is Exar Kun from this power?

Now, we know Exar Kun on his own didn't stand a chance against the combined Jedi Order as of that battle, how many fewer Jedi than that do we need to get before it starts to turn into a more even engagement? How much of the totality of the power he uses in the battle is from the drain and how much of it is his own, given he is in the first place capable of draining them? There's a lot of context to this, but the absolute of this comparison is as follows:

Tales of the Jedi Exar Kun is relative, to a certain degree, to a power that enormously dwarfs the power that it takes to destroy the spirit of the Exar Kun, demonstrably:

It is stated that the power used against the spirit of Exar Kun is far, far less than the power channeled through Dorsk 81 to fling the Star Destroyer fleet out of Yavin IV:

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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) 20210610

Noting that the lack of Luke Skywalker and Vodo-Siosk Baas in the bond with Dorsk 81 evidently isn't consequential in the least, it is outright stronger regardless. This indicates that the combined numbers both make up for and dwarf this initial base power discrepancy between individuals. This then obviously scales up enormously as pertains to the entire Jedi Order as faced by Exar Kun with the ritual energies:

I, Jedi wrote:Twelve half-trained apprentices and two toddlers planning to annihilate someone who had survived an onslaught by the combined might of the Jedi of his age sounded ridiculous on the surface of it.
I, Jedi wrote:I let Streen fill Kun with our resolve to unite and defeat him, but Kun's contempt for us came rolling back along the line like an echo. He had faced fleets of ships and all the known Jedi. He had slain his own master. His power was unrivaled. He had defeated our Master and beyond our resolve to fight, we had no operative plans and nothing with which to challenge him. We were snacks he would devour at his leisure, not morsels that might choke him.
Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:"Good! I am glad to see you have learned to respect me. Four thousand years ago the entire military fleet of the Old Republic and the combined forces of hundreds of Jedi Masters could not destroy me. You would certainly be unable to do so alone."
Vodo-Siosk Baas, Jedi Academy Trilogy Vol.II: Dark Apprentice wrote:"All the Jedi banded together and came to the jungle moon in a united front against the Sith stronghold Exar Kun had built. The allied Jedi combined their power into a massive annihilating strike."

So to be clear, the combined Jedi Order = an insane amount of > the Dorsk 81 conduit which is >>> Jedi Academy conduit.

Now you can infer comparisons to the Luke, Leia & Anakin vs. Dark Emperor Sheev with the Jedi Academy conduit given everything I've said since the start, Tom Veitch has made his intent known about the power levels involved there:

TOM: At the time I sent in my original [Dark Empire] proposal, I didn’t quite know how the story would end, except that Luke and Leia would overpower the Emperor by joining their minds in the Force. Tim had a problem with that, of course. He said my idea was “an insult to the Star Wars philosophy”. He said that the idea that Luke and Leia would use mental power to destroy the Emperor was “completely and absolutely WRONG.” [his caps]

Q: Weird.

TOM: Well, I think he might have misunderstood what I wrote in the proposal, about “whole areas of the dark mind falling to the light side of the Force…” I also said that at that moment “everything Luke has learned about the dark side is transmuted and turned against the Emperor.”

LINK: http://starwarsinterviews1.blogspot.com/2020/07/exclusive-16-pages-of-dark-empire.html

Or you can just scale Kun unfathomably over Luke's current power in general, as I've highlighted in this very post, which is reflected by all of the much later accolades Kun's spirit gets, indicating that he is still stronger than Luke even by New Rebellion or the Hand of Thrawn duology.

So, to assert that Tales of the Jedi Exar Kun goes from this kind of power to being essentially trash next to Revenge of the Sith Darth Sidious and Darth Plagueis, all because of supremacy quotes, is utterly wrong. Why is it utterly wrong? Simply put, you're asserting that quotes that never intended to retcon these power levels, can do so due to a 'power wall' given the number of relevant quotes.

1: Whenever we actually see these power levels genuinely demonstrated in a direct comparison to one another, there isn't a single occasion in which Darth Sidious or Emperor Palpatine came out looking good against the ancient Sith; never mind the mightiest of their number in Exar Kun.

2: You're assuming that Exar Kun himself does not have his own power wall, which if you've been paying any sort of attention thus far in this debate, you'd see that he has a damn big one of his own which I've carefully laid out across my two posts. Any appeals to the assertion that this power wall was simply retconned, are themselves provably false. To make this claim you have to assert that Kun has been put aside over time consistently, when that couldn't be further from the case. Since 2008 Exar Kun has had five massive quotes that reassert the position he already had prior to and up to Revenge of the Sith which itself consist of all the things I've said so far (and change), so the appeal to retcons is blatantly incorrect.

3. Perhaps just as indicatively, all of Exar Kun's quotes and scaling, directly address the Emperor, in fact they always have, he was conceived as such from the inception of his character. We know that exceptions can be made in hardline quotes, and this would be doubly true when concerning quotes that only imply a power comparison due to IU chronology. Your accolades don't save you even if it were true that Darth Plagueis was on par with the titans

4.People make exceptions constantly, whenever they perceive that a quote cannot be true via direct contradiction or shouldn't apply due to merely being an implicit/indirect bind that only comes into effect due to IU chronology; Tenebrae vs. the Son or Abeloth, Sidious vs. the Son or Abeloth, or Bane vs. Tenebrae. When Exar Kun has such an enormous base of power to work from, itself woven deeply into the core of the Expanded Universe, then this is clearly one of those cases given the enormity of data contradicting it. Especially in the Canon Considerations era.
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SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias) Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs Darth Plagueis (Vaelias)

November 8th 2021, 7:53 pm
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