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Meatpants
Meatpants
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 5:35 am
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Darth Tyranus as of Revenge of the Sith. Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force: Invincible.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. Tentatively, there will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of judges to be announced.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:


  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
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Last edited by Meatpants on August 10th 2019, 6:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 5:38 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
This is Dooku, Darth Tyranus, Count of Serenno:
Once a great Jedi Master, now an even greater Lord of the Sith, Dooku is a dark colossus bestriding the galaxy. Nemesis of the corrupt Republic, oriflamme of the principled Confederacy of Independent Systems, he is the very personification of shock and awe.

Glossary
AotC C - Attack of the Clones Comic
AotC S - Attack of the Clones Script
AotC Jr - Attack of the Clones Jr Novel
AotC SN - Attack of the Clones Senior Novel
LotF T - Legacy of the Force: Tempest

I. The Power of Darth Tyranus

Darth Tyranus is a monster of the Dark Side of the Force; one of the most powerful Jedi in the history of its Order, and after that, one of the most powerful Sith in galactic history. He has shown time and time again on a consistent basis that he’s up there with the best. Being able to contend with the likes of Yoda, Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker, all three among the top duelists/Force wielders in history, all of whom you’ll find in a top ten or top fifteen list. Tyranus has demonstrated a consistent level of power that his opponent, Darth Caedus, lacks. Unable to directly break through the barrier of someone like Kyle Katarn, being challenged by a post-prime Aurra Sing, embarrassing displays against Mara Jade and Jaina Solo etc. In other words, Caedus is incredibly inconsistent, and that’s not a good trait against someone as powerful and consistent as Darth Tyranus.

Star Wars: Attack of the Clones

“I have become more powerful than any Jedi, even you.”


In Attack of the Clones (AotC), Tyranus' Force attack against Yoda is so potent that only someone of Yoda’s power can survive it: “Only a Jedi Master as powerful as Yoda could survive such an attack." (Link ). Thus, only the likes of Yoda, Sidious and perhaps Mace Windu can survive against Tyranus in a Force battle, be it via lightning, telekenesis or any other form. Although Yoda is without question more powerful than Tyranus, he was still capable of holding his own against the most powerful Jedi to ever sit on the Jedi Council, "the diminutive Jedi Grand Master was inarguably the most powerful Jedi ever to sit on the Council." (Link ) In combat with Yoda, with a portion of his Force reserves having already been spent dueling Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker, he holds his own against the Jedi master for half a minute in the movie before realising he can't win. What's of note is that despite tiring himself in an all-out flurry intended to overwhelm Yoda, he manages to draw deeper in the second half of the duel when his opponent moves on the offensive. His fatigue is stated clearly in the source material: "His energy drains. His strokes become feebler, slower." (AotC S); "It went on and on for many moments, but eventually Dooku's flurry began to slow..." (AotC Sn); "The Count’s attack grew more desperate, to no avail. Breathing hard, he backed away..." (AotC Jr) and "With each failed thrust, Dooku’s strength weakens...Sensing his opponent's fatigue, Yoda at last reveals why he is considered the most powerful of the Jedi." (AotC C). After Yoda attacks "With a sudden burst of sheer power..." (AotC Sn), Tyranus is placed on the defensive. He holds his own, despite his obvious fatigue, and drawing on his rage is able to increase his power "dramatically":
AotC Sn wrote:
With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

According to the Online Oxford Dictionary, 'tempo' in this context is defined as "The rate or speed of motion or activity; pace." (Link ) Thus, Tyranus inreased the speed of his bladework "dramatically", remaining "perfectly balanced" and letting the Force flow through him as if he were "a mere conduit for its power." What's more, he's capable of achieving this sudden burst of power whilst defending himself in combat against Yoda's offensive. In all, Tyranus has shown himself capable of holding off Yoda for over half minute on neutral ground even as of AotC, which is before a massive surge of growth during the Clone Wars up to Revenge of the Sith (RotS). His Force attacks are so potent that only a being as powerful as Yoda can survive them. The same Yoda who, as demonstrated above is inarguably the most powerful Jedi to ever sit on the Jedi Council. In contrast, Caedus is incapable of directly ragdolling someone like Kyle Katarn - a third-rate Jedi who's arguably below the likes of the B-team.

II. Caedus ~ Aayla Secura? A (very small) Case Study

It's become apparent to the community as of late that the bounty hunter Aurra Sing is inexorably tied to certain characters in the Legends universe - some more embarassing than others - enter Caedus. But let's leave post-prime Sing for now, and look back to her better days, specifically her duel against the Jedi Knight (not yet Jedi Master) Aayla Secura.
Aurra Sing Databank wrote:
The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

So we have OOU evidence that Aayla and Aurra Sing were fighting to a draw before the Jedi Knight exploited her opponent's emotions, thus establishing them as equals combatively. This same Aayla was ragdolled in combat by a holding back Quinlan Vos in Star Wars: Republic #68:
SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Captur10
SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Captur11
In turn, Dooku has been shown on various occasions and being capable of casually ragdolling Vos (i.e. holding back). One such example is here, in Jedi: Count Dooku:
SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Captur12
Considering that one logically has to be vastly more powerful to burst through someone's wall and ragdoll them, it's even more impressive if the attacker does it whilst holding back, which is exactly the case with Vos against Aayla and Dooku against Vos. Thus the scaling chain we get is so vast in power disparity that margin of error almost becomes irrelevant, since the power gaps are so vast:
Dooku > Pre-prime Dooku >>> Quinlan Vos >>> Aayla Secura ~ Aurra Sing.


This is just the beginning of the chain. Let's now establish how Caedus fits into it. The Aurra Sing he fights is not the same Aayla fought. This Aurra Sing is past her prime, as is duly noted in the novel Legacy of the Force: Tempest:

"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."
"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

Caedus - the Sith supposedly superior to Dooku - decides that his first reaction is to shoot Aurra, rather than opt to straight up attack her with the Force. His assault against her mind a bit later is explained by the novel as taking Sing by surprise. What's more, Caedus required all his concentration to do this, "Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike." (LotF: T). Even while utterly dominating her, he can't simply ragdoll her, but has to maintain concentration so that he can get up close and kill her with his lightsaber. All it took for Sing to break this hold on her mind was flick the activation light on her thermal detonator, which completely shatters Caedus' concentration, "Her thumb twitched. The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind..." (LotF: T). Then we having Sing dominating Caedus in the ensuing struggle, landing kick after kick. Even when he Force pushes her, Sing isn't taken wholly by surprise, and even manages to disarm him as it's happening. He's even worried about the struggle, "But he could see clearly enough to be worried." (LotF: T) Honestly, I should just stop here to save further embarrassment. We have Sing moving so fast that Caedus can barely react, and a bloody struggle that should not have happened for someone supposedly superior to Dooku. 

The fact is, even if we give Caedus a moderate superiority over Sing, it's still not even close to putting him above Dooku. For one, he was facing an older and post-prime Sing; and he was clearly unable to dominate her unless he caught her off-guard. Someone of Dooku's calibre can casually ragdoll people who ragdoll an even more combatively viable Aurra Sing. Thus we get:
Dooku > Pre-prime Dooku >>> Quinlan Vos >>> Aayla Secura ~ Aurra Sing > Caedus? > Post-prime Aurra Sing


This is of course assuming that Caedus is moderately superior to post-prime Aurra Sing. There's other embarrassing showings, like Caedus being unable to comfortably ragdoll Kyle Katarn, something Dooku is clearly capable of doing. So that's the comparison we have right now: a vastly pre-prime Dooku can hold is own against Yoda for over half a minute, vs Caedus struggling against a post-prime Aurra Sing who's better and younger self was equalled by Aayla Secura.
Save yourself some embarrassment now and concede.


Last edited by Meatpants on August 2nd 2019, 9:38 am; edited 1 time in total
Sjuttiosju
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 8:18 am
Nice.


Last edited by DC77 (Reborn) on January 16th 2020, 1:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 8:34 am
TAEP.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 9:39 am
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 12:40 pm
Arguing Caedus ~ Aayla Secura? I like it. Good post MP.
MasterCilghal
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 2nd 2019, 8:39 pm
Very good post, as usual from MP.
Blade_of_Dorin
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 2:38 am
Impressive post, MP.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 4:04 am
This NJO lowballing pleases me greatly.
Ziggy
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 4:24 am
This NJO lowballing pleases me greatly.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 5:16 am
Don't fear what you're feeling, DC, use it! Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!

_________________
SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Sheev_sig_3
MasterCilghal
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 6:38 am
YVH Cilghal wrote:Very good post, as usual from MP.
I forgot the latter part of my comment: but the NJO lowballing hurts me.
avatar
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 3rd 2019, 9:06 am
Excellent post. Meatpants never fails to deliver when it comes to Jinn's Master's accolades.
Meatpants
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 18th 2019, 10:53 pm
I'd like to cancel this debate, unless DC is willing to place this debate under inactive until I finish my other debates. Either way, I won't be replying to any of DC's content here for a long time.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 19th 2019, 1:37 am
@Meatpants wrote:I'd like to cancel this debate, unless DC is willing to place this debate under inactive until I finish my other debates. Either way, I won't be replying to any of DC's content here for a long time.
Given that DC reserved a Dooku vs Caedus SS with me some months ago I’d be willing to tag in.
Meatpants
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 19th 2019, 1:44 am
Go for it.
IG
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 19th 2019, 8:42 am
TAEP
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 19th 2019, 11:19 am
@Greysentinel365

DC has told me that he is perfectly fine with you taking over for MP.
Master Azronger
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on August 19th 2019, 12:33 pm
@Greysentinel365 @DC77 I updated the banner to have Grey instead of MP. Do you guys like the one where the lightning emits blue light on Dooku more than the one where it doesn't, or the other way around?

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Banner13

SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Banner14

_________________
SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Sheev_sig_3
Sjuttiosju
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on January 16th 2020, 11:56 am
@Azronger Second banner.

@Meatpants (Away) Change the banner and title pls.

OT-I'll make this quick and have something up in the next couple days.
Sjuttiosju
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on January 16th 2020, 8:48 pm
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
Alright... since I've got a couple days off due to finishing mock exams I'll give y'all something nice and easy.

Opening Thoughts


This Aurra Sing is past her prime, as is duly noted in the novel Legacy of the Force: Tempest:

I don't see how Han and Leia's speculation about her age having an effect on her abilities is of any particular importance to the discussion at hand. Barring a few noteworthy exceptions, most of which take place under entirely different circumstances, it's generally the case that force users increase as the years go by, if anything.

Caedus - the Sith supposedly superior to Dooku - decides that his first reaction is to shoot Aurra, rather than opt to straight up attack her with the Force.

Which is the logical response really. A shot landed is a confirmed kill, a TK attack isn't.

What's more, Caedus required all his concentration to do this, "Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike." (LotF: T). Even while utterly dominating her, he can't simply ragdoll her, but has to maintain concentration so that he can get up close and kill her with his lightsaber. All it took for Sing to break this hold on her mind was flick the activation light on her thermal detonator, which completely shatters Caedus' concentration, "Her thumb twitched. The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind..." (LotF: T).

The fact that Jacen's unable to dominate Sing without his full concentration doesn't speak to parity between the two in the slightest. It's fairly apparent that TP domination requires one of the biggest disparities in the mythos. For reference, here's Luke needing to root himself to the very heart of the force to take Unu's TK:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.

But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

And here's this same Unu admitting he can't TP DN Jacen, somebody who's a relative ant by comparison:

Dark Nest: The Joiner King wrote:"Jacen convinced Tenel Ka, or you used Jacen to convince her?" Jaina was thinking of how Raynar had nearly forced her to leave just a few moments earlier-and of the irresistible call that had summoned her and the others to the Colony in the first place. "Your touch can be very compelling."

"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

Says it all really. Your grounds for parity between Sing and Jacen is completely is non-existent.

Then we having Sing dominating Caedus in the ensuing struggle, landing kick after kick.

Oh, you wanna play it like this. Fine, let's look at the scene itself:

Spoiler:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.

Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

"You little shrew!"

Sing drew her leg back again to kick . . . then let it drop to the floor. Her eyes widened in anger-or perhaps it was fear. She craned her neck around, staring at Allana, and began to convulse. Jacen quickly pulled Sing's lightsaber from her unresisting hand, then held the still-ignited tip to the assassin's neck.

^Full fight above for reference. First off:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height.

Sing was already moving before Jacen caught the detonator (Which, naturally, his focus was on), well prior to when he began to react. Ergo, he's been caught wrong footed. Every advantage Sing gets from this point onwards (Be it kicking or disarming Jacen) comes as a result of this. Even then:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

Jacen manages to outskill and outspeed her without utilising his lightsaber, dislocating her knee and pinning her arm. So no, they aren't comparable. And even if they were:

New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force wrote:He sighed and sat down. He was a decent lightsaber master and sai acrobat, but nowhere near as skilled as Luke, Kyp, Mara, Corran-or Anakin. His heart just wasn't in it.

Jacen's not a lightsaber master, at least not yet. He's limited in a lot of ways, and as is made abundantly clear, Jacen's power is all that increases massively from here onwards. Not his saber skill, at least not by much:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

Mara emphasises that she can't outstrip his force powers. That being said when they throwdown in the tunnels, Mara beats the shit out of him:

Spoiler:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.
She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.
He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.
They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.
"Ben... I'll see you dead first... before... you get... Ben."
Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.
"You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be."
"Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is."

And the circumstances surrounding this fight are overplayed:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She didn't expect that weight of debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immobilize him. He wouldn't be dead—yet.

Mara didn't expect the ceiling to do any real damage. She was trying to trap him. On top of that:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.
Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.
He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

Jacen was still capable of "extraordinary feats of strength". There's more too. As can be seen above Jacen sends the same wreckage that encased him flying at high speeds in a fashion similar to a bomb blast, and it hits Mara full on. So, either Mara can take punishment better than Jacen (Unlikely), or she was in nearly as bad shape as he was. Overall, Jacen as of this time period isn't that much better than Mara, if at all in pure CQC, and is far more powerful in the force. Let's follow this line of thinking to its conclusion:

Essential Reader's Companion wrote:Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

So, Jacen is amped by sacrifice. Upon killing Mara, he gets a huge boost. While I've noted before that Jacen's power isn't =/= his lightsaber skill, here there seems to be a correlation. And we have a direct comparison to prove it. But first:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had been.

^This is Jacen on his lightsaber skill circa Fury. Quite a contrast isn't it? While I see no reason to assume Jacen is the best lightsaber duellist bar Luke ever, his part about the current timeframe should be correct, and his general confidence level supports a large boost in raw sabers. Now, for the direct comparison, here's Corran, somebody noted to be proximate to Mara:

I, Jedi wrote:After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.

This same Corran was neglected in favour of Kyle when it came to taking down Jacen head to head:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:“Masters Horn and Katarn have volunteered. I am also willing to lead it. But I haven’t assigned a mission leader yet…because I think you should lead it.”
...
He thought about it a long moment. “Here’s my decision. Master Katarn will lead this mission.”

Implying superiority. Now, what happened when Kyle actually duelled Jacen:

Spoiler:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.

Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it. not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him.

He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began.



In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even.



Ten seconds.

Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation.

They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me.

Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three.

He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute.

Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle.

Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn.

Katarn hurled his lightsaber off to the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through.

Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.

Fifteen seconds.

Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question."

The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready.

Katarn caught his returning lightsaber. "Meaning you will torture us to death. Are you listening to yourself, Jacen? Do you even know who you are anymore?"

"I do. It's you who have no idea who I am."

He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.

Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .

One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.

Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.

A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.

Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.

Katarn now stood so close to Caedus that every facial feature was visible, every scar and line in his weathered face, every hair on his brow, mustache, and beard.

Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest.

A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement.

Jacen negates all of his attacks with casual elegance, while ragdolling his allies. All the while, Jacen was simply stalling for the GAG to arrive so he could take Kyle alive. So as of this point Jacen's lightsaber abilities should now be proportionate to his force power. And he's far and away from the Sing fight. That's not even accounting for the fact that we've still got another large, verifiable increase to cover. At this point in time, Jacen is stomped in 5 few moves by rage!Luke:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Dooku has never displayed dominance of this degree against an opponent of this Jacen's calibre. Not only is Jacen a better duellist than anybody in the NJO by this point, but he's also a powerhouse, who prior to 2 sacrificial power ups+daily growth proved capable of casually ragdolling drop ships:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The drop ship completed its attack pattern, then stopped firing as it descended below the effective altitude for its fire-control apparatus. The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base.
… Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.
Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.
… And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel.

And yanking back accelerating B-Wings:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The second B-wing gave up trying to hold Kyle and his companions at bay and dropped its tail to bring its torpedo launcher to bear. Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.

So yeah, Dooku isn't replicating Luke's performance, not even close. Peak Jacen against the Inferno iteration of the character though? He's more than up to the task. Take his fight with Luke amped Jaina for example:

Spoiler:

Legacy Of The Force: Invincible wrote:Caedus did not hesitate to activate his own blade. His pain would only fuel his power, and if he did not attack the sniper, he knew the sniper would attack him. He Force-leapt up through the hole into the smoky, flashing interior of the booth and pivoted around to block the fan of blue light that came slicing toward his neck even before he could sense who he was fighting.
Whoever it was, the enemy was good.
Caedus felt a boot slam into his ribs-an instant before he saw it coming with his Aing-Tii fighting-sight - and the breath left his lungs. He countered with a head-high backslash and brought his own foot up, landing a Force-enhanced snap-kick between the legs of the brown-robed blur attacking him. The blow drew a pained grunt, but failed to even stagger his foe.
A bony elbow slammed up under his chin, rocking him onto his heels. Then, finally, Caedus felt a familiar tingle in the back of his mind, and he saw the image of a violet blade slashing at his vulnerable side. He swept his own lightsaber down across the front of his body in a desperate reverse block that barely caught the attack in time to prevent it from slicing him in two, then whirled into a spinning back kick that landed squarely in his foe's stomach and drove him back: a mere two steps.
It was enough.
Now Caedus could see who he was fighting, and he could not believe it. A gaunt-faced man with eyes as blue and cold as vardium steel, nostrils flaring red with anger and exertion, a thin-lipped snarl filled with confidence and disdain.
Luke Skywalker.
Just a few minutes earlier, Caedus had sensed his uncle's presence far above Nickel One, in the same blastboat as his mother, father, and Saba Sebatyne. And now here Luke was, inside the asteroid. Even Jedi Grand Masters could not be in two places at once-Caedus knew that-but he did not waste time being confused.
All that mattered was that Luke was here, somehow, and that he was the one swordsman in the galaxy whom Caedus did not dare fight one-armed. Even as Luke leapt forward weaving a basket of lightsaber slashes, Caedus sprang back out of the projection booth, launching himself into a high Force flip designed to put as much distance between himself and his attacker as possible.
Luke flew after him, not even bothering to try for the high position, simply coming up under him with a wild slash combination that was anything but subtle or deft or even tricky; just pure relentless ferocity. Caedus had to stretch himself out belly-down in midair to meet the attack, and even calling on the Force to bolster the strength in his good arm, it was all he could do to keep the powerful strikes from knocking his guard aside and leaving him wide open.
They started to drop, trading a trio of lightning-fast blows that left Caedus's hands stinging and his heart racing. The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife.
After the third exchange, Caedus and Luke came down in the seating area, two rows apart. Both landed on their feet, Luke more lightly than Caedus.
Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and flicked his hand downward, arming the dart thrower he had begun wearing beneath his sleeve after their last fight.
But Luke did something even more unexpected, removing one hand from his lightsaber and pushing the palm forward. An instant later, the unseen hammer of a Force blast caught Caedus in the sternum and drove him not over, but through the seats behind him.
He slammed into the next row and dropped to the floor foot-to-foot with the big Mandalorian he had killed earlier-the one in the black armor and red helmet. Caedus's head was spinning and his chest was more than aching-it was throbbing, burning, clenching so tightly he could hardly breathe.
But he still had his lightsaber-and he needed it. He thumbed the activation switch and brought the weapon up just as Luke's blue blade came slicing down toward him. Caedus caught it on his own crimson blade, then straightened his arm, simultaneously parrying and pointing the dart thrower on his wrist into his attacker's face.
"Release!" he commanded.
A faint puff of air tickled Caedus's forearm as the thrower launched its darts, but Luke was already whirling out of the way. The slivers streaked past in a harmless black flash and vanished; then Luke was spinning into the row where Caedus lay, positioning himself above Caedus's head for the coup de grace.

The key takeaways from the fight are:

1.Jacen is totally convinced he's fighting the real Luke, meaning Jaina's performance has to be consistent with her uncle's, which was the whole purpose of amping her in the first place. This fits well with Jaina's feeling of invincibility, and Jacen himself seems to use their last duel as a proxy for the outcome of the current one, noting that he'll have to perform better in order to win.

2.Jacen's arm is busted up before the duel begins, he's in much worse state than he was against Luke, where he was actually amped by drawing off the pain of a kidney injury. Moreover, Luke in that fight had just had an old wound reopened, and was struggling to breathe as a result. Jaina had no such disadvantage here.

3.They match in sabers. While hard pressed, Jacen's ultimately able to stop her from breaking his guard, and lands an equal number of physical strikes, despite his poor physical state, and Jaina only takes a lead by switching tactics mid duel.

4.Jaina's victory was due to the force, not saber superiority, and employing force based attacks is something Jacen has likewise shown he can do against her, as evidenced by him subduing her with FL in the second half of their duel, which would have been his victory if not for Jaina's second weapon.

So Jacen is equal to amped Jaina, better than her if anything really. And let's look at what you had to say about her:

Greysentinel365 wrote:Amped Jaina is around Dooku level.

So, I'll take that as a concession. On top of the established power edge Jacen's got the pain tolerance to power on through if Dooku manages to get a lucky shot:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

My boy can take lightsaber strikes just fine. It's clear as day. Jacen wins.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on April 16th 2020, 1:11 pm; edited 14 times in total
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on January 16th 2020, 8:50 pm
@greysentinel365 Opener is up. Been looking forward to debating you.
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on January 16th 2020, 9:13 pm
@IG (Exists) @NotAA3 Since you guys requested to be tagged.
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on January 16th 2020, 9:24 pm
Great post. SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) 228124001
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SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365) Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

on January 17th 2020, 3:53 am
I’ve been looking forward to this
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