SS - Darth Caedus (DC77) vs Darth Tyranus (Greysentinel365)

Darth Tyranus as of Revenge of the Sith. Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force: Invincible.

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. Tentatively, there will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of judges to be announced.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

• Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  
• Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  
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AotC Sn wrote:

With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

Aurra Sing Databank wrote:

The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."

"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

Nice.

TAEP.

@DC77 (Reborn) @NotAA3

Arguing Caedus ~ Aayla Secura? I like it. Good post MP.

Very good post, as usual from MP.

Impressive post, MP.

This NJO lowballing pleases me greatly.

This NJO lowballing pleases me greatly.

Don't fear what you're feeling, DC, use it! Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!

YVH Cilghal wrote:Very good post, as usual from MP.

I forgot the latter part of my comment: but the NJO lowballing hurts me.

Excellent post. Meatpants never fails to deliver when it comes to Jinn's Master's accolades.

I'd like to cancel this debate, unless DC is willing to place this debate under inactive until I finish my other debates. Either way, I won't be replying to any of DC's content here for a long time.

Meatpants wrote:I'd like to cancel this debate, unless DC is willing to place this debate under inactive until I finish my other debates. Either way, I won't be replying to any of DC's content here for a long time.

Given that DC reserved a Dooku vs Caedus SS with me some months ago I’d be willing to tag in.

Go for it.

TAEP

@Greysentinel365

DC has told me that he is perfectly fine with you taking over for MP.

@Greysentinel365 @DC77 I updated the banner to have Grey instead of MP. Do you guys like the one where the lightning emits blue light on Dooku more than the one where it doesn't, or the other way around?

@Azronger Second banner.

@Meatpants (Away) Change the banner and title pls.

OT-I'll make this quick and have something up in the next couple days.

Alright... since I've got a couple days off due to finishing mock exams I'll give y'all something nice and easy.

Opening Thoughts

This Aurra Sing is past her prime, as is duly noted in the novel Legacy of the Force: Tempest:

I don't see how Han and Leia's speculation about her age having an effect on her abilities is of any particular importance to the discussion at hand. Barring a few noteworthy exceptions, most of which take place under entirely different circumstances, it's generally the case that force users increase as the years go by, if anything.

Caedus - the Sith supposedly superior to Dooku - decides that his first reaction is to shoot Aurra, rather than opt to straight up attack her with the Force.

Which is the logical response really. A shot landed is a confirmed kill, a TK attack isn't.

What's more, Caedus required all his concentration to do this, "Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike." (LotF: T). Even while utterly dominating her, he can't simply ragdoll her, but has to maintain concentration so that he can get up close and kill her with his lightsaber. All it took for Sing to break this hold on her mind was flick the activation light on her thermal detonator, which completely shatters Caedus' concentration, "Her thumb twitched. The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind..." (LotF: T).

The fact that Jacen's unable to dominate Sing without his full concentration doesn't speak to parity between the two in the slightest. It's fairly apparent that TP domination requires one of the biggest disparities in the mythos. For reference, here's Luke needing to root himself to the very heart of the force to take Unu's TK:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The pain of losing an arm might have forced a common Jedi to stop fighting, but Raynar was no common Jedi. He had the Force potential of the Colony to draw on, and he did that now, swinging his remaining hand up to hurl Luke down the corridor as he had done before.

But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

And here's this same Unu admitting he can't TP DN Jacen, somebody who's a relative ant by comparison:

Dark Nest: The Joiner King wrote:"Jacen convinced Tenel Ka, or you used Jacen to convince her?" Jaina was thinking of how Raynar had nearly forced her to leave just a few moments earlier-and of the irresistible call that had summoned her and the others to the Colony in the first place. "Your touch can be very compelling."

"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

Says it all really. Your grounds for parity between Sing and Jacen is completely is non-existent.

Then we having Sing dominating Caedus in the ensuing struggle, landing kick after kick.

Oh, you wanna play it like this. Fine, let's look at the scene itself:

Spoiler:

^Full fight above for reference. First off:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height.

Sing was already moving before Jacen caught the detonator (Which, naturally, his focus was on), well prior to when he began to react. Ergo, he's been caught wrong footed. Every advantage Sing gets from this point onwards (Be it kicking or disarming Jacen) comes as a result of this. Even then:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

Jacen manages to outskill and outspeed her without utilising his lightsaber, dislocating her knee and pinning her arm. So no, they aren't comparable. And even if they were:

New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force wrote:He sighed and sat down. He was a decent lightsaber master and sai acrobat, but nowhere near as skilled as Luke, Kyp, Mara, Corran-or Anakin. His heart just wasn't in it.

Jacen's not a lightsaber master, at least not yet. He's limited in a lot of ways, and as is made abundantly clear, Jacen's power is all that increases massively from here onwards. Not his saber skill, at least not by much:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

Mara emphasises that she can't outstrip his force powers. That being said when they throwdown in the tunnels, Mara beats the shit out of him:

Spoiler:

And the circumstances surrounding this fight are overplayed:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She didn't expect that weight of debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immobilize him. He wouldn't be dead—yet.

Mara didn't expect the ceiling to do any real damage. She was trying to trap him. On top of that:

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:They said that the human body was capable of extraordinary feats of strength when in extremis. For a Jedi, it was something else entirely.
Jacen Solo wasn't ready to die, not now, not so close to his ascendance, and not in a stinking drain like vermin.
He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up.

Jacen was still capable of "extraordinary feats of strength". There's more too. As can be seen above Jacen sends the same wreckage that encased him flying at high speeds in a fashion similar to a bomb blast, and it hits Mara full on. So, either Mara can take punishment better than Jacen (Unlikely), or she was in nearly as bad shape as he was. Overall, Jacen as of this time period isn't that much better than Mara, if at all in pure CQC, and is far more powerful in the force. Let's follow this line of thinking to its conclusion:

Essential Reader's Companion wrote:Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

So, Jacen is amped by sacrifice. Upon killing Mara, he gets a huge boost. While I've noted before that Jacen's power isn't =/= his lightsaber skill, here there seems to be a correlation. And we have a direct comparison to prove it. But first:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had been.

^This is Jacen on his lightsaber skill circa Fury. Quite a contrast isn't it? While I see no reason to assume Jacen is the best lightsaber duellist bar Luke ever, his part about the current timeframe should be correct, and his general confidence level supports a large boost in raw sabers. Now, for the direct comparison, here's Corran, somebody noted to be proximate to Mara:

I, Jedi wrote:After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.

This same Corran was neglected in favour of Kyle when it came to taking down Jacen head to head:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:“Masters Horn and Katarn have volunteered. I am also willing to lead it. But I haven’t assigned a mission leader yet…because I think you should lead it.”
...
He thought about it a long moment. “Here’s my decision. Master Katarn will lead this mission.”

Implying superiority. Now, what happened when Kyle actually duelled Jacen:

Spoiler:

Jacen negates all of his attacks with casual elegance, while ragdolling his allies. All the while, Jacen was simply stalling for the GAG to arrive so he could take Kyle alive. So as of this point Jacen's lightsaber abilities should now be proportionate to his force power. And he's far and away from the Sing fight. That's not even accounting for the fact that we've still got another large, verifiable increase to cover. At this point in time, Jacen is stomped in 5 few moves by rage!Luke:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Dooku has never displayed dominance of this degree against an opponent of this Jacen's calibre. Not only is Jacen a better duellist than anybody in the NJO by this point, but he's also a powerhouse, who prior to 2 sacrificial power ups+daily growth proved capable of casually ragdolling drop ships:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The drop ship completed its attack pattern, then stopped firing as it descended below the effective altitude for its fire-control apparatus. The vessel itself was a fiery wedge of ceram-metal composite at the tip of the smoke plume, no more than forty meters long and perhaps half that at the base.
… Jaina snaked a finger over the edge of the crater and pointed at one of the drop ship's laser cannons, then used the Force to scoop up a pile of sand and hurl it up the barrel. The weapon exploded, vaporizing one wing and ripping a jagged gash in the fuselage.
Fel's eyes widened in shock, and Jaina and Zekk lost sight of him as the drop ship rocked up on its side and flipped. It landed hard in the sand, and a chain of blasts shook the dune as the remaining laser cannons exploded. The vessel rolled back onto its belly and began to belch smoke.
… And that was when a loud groan sounded from the hull. Jaina and Zekk paused, thinking the craft was about to explode. Instead, it rolled away from them, revealing a dark jagged hole where the near wing had once connected to the fuselage.
Realizing someone had to be using the Force, Jaina and Zekk glanced over their shoulders and found Jacen looking in the drop ship's direction. He smiled, then nodded past them toward the vessel.

And yanking back accelerating B-Wings:

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:The second B-wing gave up trying to hold Kyle and his companions at bay and dropped its tail to bring its torpedo launcher to bear. Luke started to Force-grab the fighter again, but Jacen had already caught it and was holding it in place while cannon bolts pounded its shields from above.

So yeah, Dooku isn't replicating Luke's performance, not even close. Peak Jacen against the Inferno iteration of the character though? He's more than up to the task. Take his fight with Luke amped Jaina for example:

Spoiler:

The key takeaways from the fight are:

1.Jacen is totally convinced he's fighting the real Luke, meaning Jaina's performance has to be consistent with her uncle's, which was the whole purpose of amping her in the first place. This fits well with Jaina's feeling of invincibility, and Jacen himself seems to use their last duel as a proxy for the outcome of the current one, noting that he'll have to perform better in order to win.

2.Jacen's arm is busted up before the duel begins, he's in much worse state than he was against Luke, where he was actually amped by drawing off the pain of a kidney injury. Moreover, Luke in that fight had just had an old wound reopened, and was struggling to breathe as a result. Jaina had no such disadvantage here.

3.They match in sabers. While hard pressed, Jacen's ultimately able to stop her from breaking his guard, and lands an equal number of physical strikes, despite his poor physical state, and Jaina only takes a lead by switching tactics mid duel.

4.Jaina's victory was due to the force, not saber superiority, and employing force based attacks is something Jacen has likewise shown he can do against her, as evidenced by him subduing her with FL in the second half of their duel, which would have been his victory if not for Jaina's second weapon.

So Jacen is equal to amped Jaina, better than her if anything really. And let's look at what you had to say about her:

Greysentinel365 wrote:Amped Jaina is around Dooku level.

So, I'll take that as a concession. On top of the established power edge Jacen's got the pain tolerance to power on through if Dooku manages to get a lucky shot:

Legacy Of The Force: Inferno wrote:The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

My boy can take lightsaber strikes just fine. It's clear as day. Jacen wins.

@greysentinel365 Opener is up. Been looking forward to debating you.

@IG (Exists) @NotAA3 Since you guys requested to be tagged.

Great post.

I’ve been looking forward to this