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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 2nd 2021, 11:23 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Champion of the Dark Side is the ruling leader of the dark side faction, the two greatest of this faction must fight to the death to claim the Mantle once and for all: Meatpants of the rank Sith Lord and I, LadyKulvax at the rank of Dark Councillor.


"There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing."

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 87364711

Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun as of Tales of the Jedi - The Sith Wars #6 Dark Lord

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 2fd9c111

Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Sidious as of Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Setting: The ancient Sith council pull Kun and Sidious across time to their Valley, to see which of the two are truly deserving and worthy to wear the Mantle of Dark Lord

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Korrib10
(This setting provides no effect on the powers of the combatants)

Rules:

- Lucasfilm Licensing Policy is strictly adhered to, including but not limited to the OOU dating of both IU and OOU statements not applying post-publishing date.
- There will be 3 posts per side - of 20,000 characters each at maximum - and a maximum of 2 months in which to release a response.
- Mace Windu sucks.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on June 9th 2021, 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 9:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Luke Skywalker is stated to be near Emperor Palpatine, even as of Dark Empire, on numerous occasions in numerous sources, both IU and OOU, showing a distinct narrative regarding his placement:

1.Luke Skywalker is too strong for Dark Emperor Palpatine; however this is an IU source not taking into account the circumstances. This does not matter to me, as I doubt Luke Skywalker is going to be able to deal at all with Dark Emperor Palpatine if he's not at least on par with the Emperor in 4ABY:
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Cpaciw10

2.Corran Horn deems 11ABY Luke Skywalker to be able to more than handle Dark Emperor Palpatine, despite being well aware of Palpatine filling the galaxy with his darkness:

I, Jedi wrote:The despair in her voice found an ally in the fear writhing into my belly. It had never seemed odd to me that Kyp had been able to slam me into a wall because he had always been more powerful than me. Even when I felt the other presence reinforcing him and got hammered by the combination of them, I never imagined that they could be more powerful than Luke Skywalker. I had even rationalized away the dark man’s ability to avoid detection as his being talented in that area, just as I was talented in the area of image projection.

Had I even dreamed Luke was in danger I would have worked harder to convince him we had to act. The saliva in my mouth soured. When we start handing out citations for failure, let me get in the front of the line. I’d told Luke we were dealing with a sociopathic murderer, but I’d not convinced him of the gravity of that situation. He seemed to be in a position to handle it and all he wanted from me was information that would have given him a direction.

And I let him do just that. I closed my eyes for a moment and wanted to smack my head with the heel of my hand. What had I been thinking? I was the one who had experience with such monsters, not Luke Skywalker. I surrendered responsibility for such things to him when he was no more able to deal with it than he felt we were ready to deal with the fate of the universe. My mistake was the reverse of his, yet mine compounded his.

The pure arrogance and stupidity of those ideas slammed hard into me. Luke Skywalker had dealt with Darth Vader and the Emperor, even the Emperor Reborn. If they weren’t monsters, monsters didn’t exist. Master Skywalker was more than capable of dealing with them, which made his condition now that much more stunning and terrifying.
Dark Empire wrote:"No, I see it, too. The dark side of the Force grows stronger throughout the galaxy."
Dark Empire II wrote:"You have filled the galaxy with your darkness..."

3.Luke Skywalker's light blur is able to favorably contest Dark Emperor Palpatine's darkness:
Dark Empire I Audiodrama wrote:LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong. They're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them. I feel waves of power- the dark side and the light. But, I feel the light... is winning!

Luke Skywalker as of 11ABY, after the final defeat of Exar Kun, is stated to shine with an inner brightness stronger than ever:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

Even 12ABY Luke Skywalker himself in a rare display of confidence, believes he can defeat Emperor Palpatine:

Darksaber wrote:If Ben hadn’t taught your father,” said Callista softly, “your father probably wouldn’t have been strong enough to kill Palpatine … nor would he have been in a position to do so. You couldn’t have done it,” she added.
“Not then, no.” He’d never thought of it that way.

Kyp Durron being a rival of Luke Skywalker in power throughout 25ABY to 27ABY is a story beat repeated throughout numerous sources:

New Jedi Order - Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial wrote:But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

The New Jedi Order: Ylesia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.

Kyp Durron as of 40ABY, states he is no weaker than he was under the influence of Exar Kun, yet no stronger. Being superior in his skills with the Force but less determined than he was then under Exar Kun's control:

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:"When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

Yet we have Kueller being stated to be much more powerful than Kyp Durron was under the spirit of Exar Kun's influence:

New Rebellion wrote:Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy. So powerful that a man like Brakiss, who had so much talent in the Force that the Empire had taken him, as a baby, to train in the dark side, was terrified of him. Once Leia had asked Luke what it felt like when he knew someone steeped in the dark side was near. He hadn’t been trained enough as a young Jedi to understand the feeling. It was only later, as he grew in strength, that he understood. And he couldn’t explain it then. He could now. It felt as if a tornado had struck in the middle of a beautiful day. It felt like a blast of cold air in a warm room. It felt as if someone beloved had just died.

Kueller enjoys loose comparisons to Emperor Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi in power, with vastly quicker stated growth in power:

New Rebellion wrote:But this wasn’t Brakiss. That much he knew. This was someone else. Someone equally familiar. And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away. The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then. But this wasn’t Palpatine. This was someone else. Someone Luke had known.

New Rebellion wrote:Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.

It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.


Luke staggered under Kueller's next blow, and barely managed to roll aside. His ankle kept buckling under him, but he forced himself to put weight on it. They had moved into the alleyway Luke had seen in that strange moment of vision. Stones littered the ground all around them, and the light only came through a small opening on either end. Luke could no longer see Leia.

Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.

Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.

Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Even the likes of Mara Jade Skywalker from a great distance compares what she senses from Kueller to Palpatine, and is outright placing him beyond Luke Skywalker:

Mara Jade, New Rebellion wrote:“I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.”

12ABY Luke Skywalker holds Callista's powers to once have been as strong as his own, in both iterations of the Essential Chronology:

The Essential Chronology wrote:Though they could communicate only through a computer screen, Skywalker came to feel that Callista - someone whose strength in the Force was as great as his own - was a woman with whom he could spend the rest of his life.

New Essential Chronology wrote:Though they could communicate only through a computer screen, Skywalker came to feel that Callista - someone whose strength in the Force was as great as his own - was a woman with whom he could spend the rest of his life.

Yet, one thing criminally misunderstood about Callista is how much of a powerhouse she is, Callista not only manages to survive the death of her body, she then manages to survive Abeloth's godly willpower:

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction wrote:Luke could see a kaleidoscope of images, all drawn from Callista’s past, much of it with him, some of it from more ancient times. He marveled at her strength, the power it had required her to survive the loss of her original body, the strength it took her to remain partly Callista in the face of this overwhelming alien force.

And accomplishes a feat that Tahiri is stunned that Abeloth could pull off:

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:“Of course,” Saba replied. “But Abeloth entered the computer core and removed it—along with all our other backdoorz. She controlz all systemz in the Temple now.”
Tahiri’s eyes widened in alarm—or perhaps it was excitement. With humans, Saba could never tell.
“When you say entered,” Tahiri said, “do you mean Abeloth actually moved her Force presence into the circuits, like Callista did aboard the Eye of Palpatine’s computer?”

These feats from Callista and her equivalency to a Luke almost undoubtedly show the legitimacy of Luke Skywalker as of this timeline being with Emperor Palpatine as of 4ABY.

Exar Kun is noted to be the lone exception in Kueller's superiority over everyone bar the Emperor:

New Rebellion wrote:This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

This is supported heavily, as when the Disciples of Ragnos strike a year later in 14ABY, Luke Skywalker immediately believes that it would take the combined strength of the Jedi Order to stop Marka Ragnos if he returned. Noting that the only experience Luke Skywalker had at this point with ancient Dark Lords of the Sith is the spirit of Exar Kun:

Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy wrote:"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him."

Indeed, this is almost exactly the same thing Luke Skywalker states was required to defeat the spirit of Exar Kun:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 2017-10-29

Indeed, they are portrayed as almost in the same vein at this point:

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy.

But better yet, 19ABY Luke Skywalker still immediately jumps to Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun as the two examples of some of the most powerful dark side focal points he'd ever faced:

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Which is exactly the same sentiment he holds seven years earlier in 12ABY:

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun.

Then we have the blatant equivalency of the spirit of Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

Exar Kun's own sentiments are also far from what you'd expect if he was merely far beneath the likes of Palpatine, given he sees Palpatine's reign as the opportune time to return to the galaxy and rise once more into Godhood:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:He bides his time in his domain, waiting for just the right opportunity to return.

The mysteries of Exar Kun remain hidden even today as the evil buried there continues to seethe, waiting for a chance to rise once more… maybe sooner than expected. Currently, as the Galactic Civil War continues to rage, Rebel forces have moved into the Temple of Exar Kun.

'Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun' announcement, Star Wars Galaxies, LucasArts wrote:Exar Kun's spirit is so strong and malevolence so great, that he has withstood death for 4,000 years, waiting for an opportunity to finally obtain the godhood he so desires.

All of this gathered evidence, and with all available reconciliations, ends up with a very distinct stance of Dark Emperor Palpatine > Spirit of Exar Kun > Kueller > 11ABY Dark Lord Durron ~ 40ABY Kyp Durron = in the ballpark of 25-27ABY Luke Skywalker >>> Callista Ming ~ 11ABY Luke Skywalker >/~ 4ABY Emperor Palpatine

Note: Due to the inconsistencies between Bantam Books and Dark Horse comics regarding the true nature of Dark Emperor Palpatine and the 'truth' surrounding him and his nature, the above is therefore adjusting for that.

But this also operates independently of all of the Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker NJO drama, as Exar Kun's spirit is directly stated to be beyond the power of 11ABY Luke:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

I, Jedi wrote:"Kyp didn't like the menu." I winced as a twing rang through my ribs. "We had a discussion in the hallway, you didn't feel anything?" Heads all around the hallway shook, and I felt a cold dread begin to congeal in my stomach. If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Master Skywalker could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then we were up against something more powerful than I'd cared to imagine existing.

Jedi Academy Sourcebok wrote:He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen_Shot_2019-11-11_at_4.27.38_pm

Jacen Solo, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

Kirana Ti, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

Exar Kun is inarguably far from his strongest in every single way, having deteriorated in every manner:

1.Mentally:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20201202-081820_Discord

2.Energy reserves:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

3.Needs a physical body to restore his full power:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 20201213_120648

4.Kun had only just returned from Chaos:

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy.

5.Kun had his power massively reduced:

I, Jedi wrote:Twelve half-trained apprentices and two toddlers planning to annihilate someone who had survived an onslaught by the combined might of the Jedi of his age sounded ridiculous on the surface of it.

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:Exar Kun's essence remains trapped in his temple on Yavin 4. The Dark Lord of the Sith is far from powerless, and he bides his time in his domain, waiting for just the right opportunity to return.

Star Wars the Old Republic: Timeline 'The Exar Kun War' wrote:Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 4354132-nomi%20sunrider%20wall%20of%20light%20on%20exar%20kun%203

6.The Jedi put in countermeasures to prevent Kun from returning at all:

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:The Jedi launch a salvo of light side energy at the planet, trapping Kun's spirit there, but ravaging Yavin 4 in the process. Afterward, the Jedi built a city deep underground to nurture the world back to health and guarantee Kun never returns.

7.The most direct comparison is Exar Kun went from being an anchorless being to relying on his Temples to prevent his dissolution:
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTJLF8keQS2xt4ht4aLUuQA9iOGaXeoNhhhrkJryOj2VYMdK2yY&usqp=CAU

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

8.Restoring his power takes more than years of feeding on dozens of worshippers:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Lingering_Harmony_28card29.JPG

9.Indeed, Kun was stopped before he could become too powerful:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20200607-142432_Gallery

Simply put, Exar Kun as a spirit was never as strong as he was at his height in his prime. Especially given that Kun dies after this in official source material. Quite clearly still in his dying physical form, two years later:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Star-wars_-tales-of-the-jedi-the-sith-war-v1995-6-dark-lord-1996_1-page-27
It's dark. I'm trapped. I survived.. but I'm trapped.

Tom Veitch also confirms that Kun was most powerful when he was alive:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20210514-190547_Gmail

Whilst it was once problematic, due to the rise of your character in the mid-2000s. The arrival of Karness Muur in 2008 and then Exar Kun's supremacy quote in the last days of 2008, put a stop to that issue:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images-1

Exar Kun, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire.

An old reconciliation for Karness Muur was to use quotes regarding danger, rather than looking at quotes pertaining to Muur himself:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) RCO096_w_1554691269

1.Not only is Muur's power increase being actively prevented by putting him in stasis.
2.Celeste Morne's body isn't even as powerful as Leia Organa's body during the Rebellion era. Thus Muur can't even use his full power without Morne's body seriously deteriorating, and she isn't even remotely a positive for Muur as stated by Ostrander:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) CVJId8A

Considering all of this, we also have to consider what is stated by George Lucas regarding the position of Lord Vader compared to Emperor Palpatine as of 18ABY:

George Lucas wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 118595225_1091566857928804_4080430109684954056_n

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Image0

Keeping in mind that Vader's state doesn't exactly change:

Revenge of the Sith wrote:And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were. You are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left.

Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Forever…



Indeed, it is hard to imagine that Darth Vader's power resonating with the darkness of Emperor Palpatine, is somehow weaker than any other version of himself:

Return of the Jedi wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Yet this is still stated, as shown above, to be a Vader who would lose to the Jedi of The Phantom Menace.

There's really no way around this, Exar Kun smashes Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 1:35 pm
this was actually really good AP. i saw some things i disagree with, or that can be countered, but this was pretty damn legit. good job.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 6:25 pm
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 1019854026
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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June 5th 2021, 7:23 pm
Great opener SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 1289255181
The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 6th 2021, 7:48 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I. Darth Plagueis


GEORGE, HOFFMAN AND LUCENO


Darth Plagueis wrote:From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

In the novel Darth Plagueis, published 2012, Darth Plagueis muses that he is not aware of any Sith who surpass him in power - or if they did, he is not aware of any knowledge they possessed that makes them more powerful than him. Given the extensive knowledge Plagueis had on Exar Kun, there’s no reason to believe that the opinion of Plagueis is incorrect from an IU perspective. However, this also applies via narrative intent as well. An interview with Luceno on the release of the book sheds light on this:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Pasted11

(Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20120221231624/http://theforce.net/latestnews/story/Interview_Plagueis_Author_James_Luceno_142844.asp )

Note that both George Lucas and Howard Roffman (President of Lucasfilm Licensing 1999-2012) were heavily involved in the process. Luceno “worked most closely with George’s right-hand man” and notes how he “had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard”. He further notes importantly that the marketing text about the novel being “canon at the highest level” is true and that “a lot of the stuff” in the novel comes from the very top level of Lucasfilm, i.e. George Lucas and Howard Hoffman.

The establishment of Plagueis > Exar Kun is, therefore, not only based on Plagueis' reliable, IU affirmation, but also on the narrative intent that was line-edited and approved by George Lucas’ right-hand man (and by extension Lucas himself): Howard Hoffman. Such heavy LFL involvement from Lucas and Hoffman signifies that Plagueis’ position as more powerful than Kun comes from “canon at the highest level”, and per Shedding Limitations (SL) its release date of 2012 makes the scaling a dominating one with the Expanded Universe and the LFL hierarchy.

So, put simply and based on the most up-to-date published Legends material on the matter, Sidious > Plagueis > Exar Kun - a stance heavily monitored and approved as “canon at the highest level”.

II. Shedding Limitations

Something that I’ve noticed from your post is that you present a lot of evidence without necessarily committing to solid stances, as if I have to make the argument for you/you can snake out of them if I pin you down on something. You may also be attempting to trap me rhetorically. The only solid scaling chain you’ve provided is for Spirit Kun (and everything related to that, including Dark Empire). For Karness Muur and Vader’s power relative to Sidious, you’ve presented sources and implied an argument instead of firmly stating a position.

So, I’m going to be careful whilst addressing your post, but also establish why the sources you’ve provided in no way indicate anything different from ROTS Sidious > Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur.  

KARNESS MUUR

Whilst it was once problematic, due to the rise of your character in the mid-2000s. The arrival of Karness Muur in 2008 and then Exar Kun's supremacy quote in the last days of 2008, put a stop to that issue:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images-1

It put a stop to that issue temporarily; from above it has already been established that the latest information from the highest level of canon is that Plagueis > Kun > Muur.

ANH Sidious = ROTS Sidious > pre-Order 66 Sidious > post-boost TPM Sidious > pre-boost TPM Sidious ~ Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur (per TCSWE)

So whatever Vader is factoring into his thoughts about him and Muur defeating Sidious, one could not argue for instance that Muur is the driving force/possess much of the power of the Emperor. Since Exar Kun and by extension Karness Muur are bound by Plagueis, and the Emperor has a considerable gap between himself and his old master, there is no way of arguing that Muur is relatable to Sidious in power in any way. Other factors like Vader’s POV being failable, Vader unlocking hidden resources, Vader not being aware of the Emperor’s true power etc. are given more weight. In fact, Vader’s strength as part of the equation would be most of it given the gap between Muur and Sidious with the new scaling.

In other words, Darth Plagueis is not only published years after this new Muur content, but the authorities who line-edited and supervised its creation (Lucas and his right-hand man Hoffman) vastly outstrip any authority from Ostrander/Jan or the standard LFL publishing process.

SPIRIT KUN

I’m gonna sum this up as: cool, so what?

Per SL, the new Muur content and the fact that Kun scaled over this new Muur via his quote in TCSWE unbound him from Sidious’ supremacy. However, this works against Kun, as Darth Plagueis was subsequently released in 2012, binding Muur and Kun under Plagueis.

To add icing to the cake, Daniel Wallace, one of the writers for TCSWE, had this to say about Bane and Sidious in 2012:

Daniel Wallace | Geekosity - Endnotes for Star Wars: Book of Sith part 3; 2012 wrote:Darth Bane views the dark side of the Force as a limited quantity, and that two recipients (one to wield the power, one as the designated successor) represents the greatest Force concentration achievable while still ensuring the future of the Sith Order.

Is Bane correct? I don't know. HE thinks he's correct. On some cosmic level I do too, and that the concentration brought about by the Rule of Two allowed the dark side to grow in strength until the era of Palpatine -- the most powerful dark lord in history."

That means Spirit Kun does not factor into the equation at all. Plagueis > living Kun, which is what we’re debating. If his spirit is weaker than his living incarnation, then Plagueis > living Kun > spirit Kun. If stronger, then it’s irrelevant because we’re not debating ROTS Sidious vs JA Kun.

And you know what that means: Muur and Kun are still bound by those sweet sweet Sheev supremacy quotes.

Dark Empire endnotes wrote:As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor: "The ability to destroy a planet - or even a whole system - is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection) wrote:Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.

Death Star wrote:The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.

Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice wrote:Meet Darth Sidious – the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1 wrote:With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

Insider #66: Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals wrote:Emperor Zaarin? The idea isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Demetrius Zaarin gambled everything on an audacious coup d'état and nearly killed the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known.

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

The Complete Visual Dictionary wrote:Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Clone Wars Adventures Panel By Panel wrote:Darth Sidious’ plans to unleash the Sith upon the galaxy and do away with the Jedi have been in development for decades. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

This list does not cover all of them, but you get the point.

III. Conclusion

From 2012’s Darth Plagueis, Exar Kun is bound under Plagueis and thus under Darth Sidious as of ROTS. JA Kun is not relevant to the debate, since either way his living incarnation is bound under Sidious. Muur’s 2008 stuff precedes the Plagueis novel, thus any arguments of Muur and by extension Kun being able to free themselves of the aforementioned binding do not hold water. So, the scaling stands:

ANH Sidious = ROTS Sidious > pre-Order 66 Sidious > post-boost TPM Sidious > pre-boost TPM Sidious ~ Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur (per TCSWE)



LadyKulvax
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 6th 2021, 10:54 am
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Darth Plagueis wrote:From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Your entire rebuttal hinges on this quote. This is a fatal flaw on your part.

If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Unfortunately for Darth Plagueis, he is absolutely correct:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere. (Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)

Something corroborated by Exar Kun himself:

Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I could show you techniques that were lost thousands of years ago, secret rites and hidden doorways of power that no weak Jedi Master like Skywalker dares to touch."

Something further corroborated by Darth Sidious himself:

Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago.
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20200607-173415_Google_Play_Books

So not only does Plagueis not know everything Exar Kun knew, he doesn't even know everything about Naga Sadow's work given that Sidious finds out new knowledge about Sadow's work decades after the Muun had died.

But let's not end there. Luke Skywalker learns everything at the feet of Dark Emperor Palpatine:

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.

But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.

Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.

So Luke is inheriting knowledge from Dark Emperor Palpatine who is the most knowledgeable he has ever been:

The Ultimate Visual Guide wrote:Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

Yet this is what just one of Exar Kun's techniques does to a vastly more powerful and knowledgeable Master Luke Skywalker:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body.
He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

Not only does Luke not recognise the power being used against him but he also utterly fails to defend against it with his consummate knowledge.

So Plagueis's opinion is fine but his stated plausible exception isn't just fitting to Exar Kun but it is blown right through.

The level of involvement from LFL, absolutely doesn't matter because of this.

Besides that you decided to appeal to Daniel Wallace's endnotes for his book:

Book of Sith Endnotes wrote:If Darth Bane was there with Yoda in that diner, he'd counter that Yoda is using the wrong foodstuffs. Rather than pouring two really potent brewskis Yoda is instead like a person who adds a drop of beer into a thousand water glasses, then acts surprised when nobody gets drunk. Darth Bane views the dark side of the Force as a limited quantity, and that two recipients (one to wield the power, one as the designated successor) represents the greatest Force concentration achievable while still ensuring the future of the Sith Order.

Is Bane correct? I don't know. HE thinks he's correct. On some cosmic level I do too, and that the concentration brought about by the Rule of Two allowed the dark side to grow in strength until the era of Palpatine -- the most powerful dark lord in history.

He's not even framing the statement in a definitive manner, he's relaying his own thoughts about how right or wrong Bane is. Because if he was, he wouldn't be saying this on Twitter:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen70

You've utterly failed to produce anything that counters my post in any meaningful manner.
The Reborn Emperor
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

July 25th 2021, 9:31 am
Okay, this post is going to be short because I won't allow this debate to move too far from the central point/devolve into technical semantics.

My argument is a combination of two different pillars: Plagueis' IU opinion and the narrative intent around TPM Sidious and Plagueis being the most powerful Sith in history. While Plagueis' opinion does not provide a hard bind, the latter intent reinforces it. For one, Plagueis' extensive knowledge of Kun and the ancients in general provides a lot of authority behind his opinion, and I do think it scales him above every known feat. However, the intent bubble created around said opinion is stronger than the one around Muur. You've got the Plagueis novel with almost G-canon editorial intent, Sidious' general intent in the EU (supremacy quotes, the shadow Tenebrous sees, the general thematic concept of Sidious being the penultimate Sith) against the Muur intent, which is ambiguous at best to begin with. In other words, the intent bubble around Muur was removed by the Plagueis novel, and Sidious' intent comes out stronger.

Also, Malak caps Kun up to 2003, and anything after that would only suggest Kun is maybe on Malak's level or around it. Whether or not Kun was supposed to Palpatine tier in the 90's is beside the point, hence why I've virtually ignored all the JA stuff - it's simply not relevant when living TOTJ Kun - who you argue is more powerful than spirit Kun - has had his intent bubble with Muur scaling blown by the Plagueis novel.

We're talking about intent binds here, and Sidious is obviously ahead. For the readers, let me appeal to your sense of logic. As I noted above, the Plagueis novel was edited directly by Hoffman (Lucas' right hand man) and did not go through the normal editorial process. Lucas had direct input on events in the book that Luceno was bound to and the novel was published well after the Muur stuff. With that frame, note that Kun is never portrayed as relative to Sidious after 2000 with the release of TPM. He gets capped by Malak in the early 2000's, along with Sidious obtaining two dozen supremacy quotes with clear intent. Then the Plagueis novel. The only caveat here is the Muur bubble between ROTS and the Plagueis novel. But again, this is relatively weak considering the weaker editorial authority, more ambiguity and the fact that Kun was capped around Malak level to begin with.

Any attempt to scale Kun above Sidious using Luke is a red herring because there's later sources dealing with living Kun, who's more powerful. All Kun has got is the Muur comic, but it no longer has intent protection since it's superseded by Plagueis.

Sidious opens with Force lightning and overwhelms Kun.
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Part 1

July 25th 2021, 7:23 pm
So there are multiple falsehoods at play here, but I'm going to pick them apart one by one, to be succinct.

Firstly though:
1.I accept your concession on the Endnotes claim.
2.I accept your concession on the comparisons of Exar Kun to a far more powerful Emperor Palpatine given you've failed to even consider them, under a faulty premise.

So, I see that -for the record, this is the second time in a row- you've appealed to the involvement of Lucas Licensing and the importance of said involvement in the development of Darth Plagueis. But, and forgive me for asking this again, but why is it relevant?

Again, your sole claim to Lord Plagueis having supremacy over Exar Kun is Plagueis's personal belief that if he had any equals then he was unaware of either the person  or the secrets they'd taken to the grave.

So, unless you have another actual statement with a bind that applies to Exar Kun, then once again your appeal to the binding intent of Lucas Licensing is wholly irrelevant here. It, to be blunt, has no bearing at all on our argument.

You claim that Plagueis 'knows enough' about Exar Kun's historically-known feats to be a worthy enough authority for a basis of comparison. I can't help but think you've just not really bothered to take anything I said into account in my response to you.

Let's look, again, at what exactly Lord Plagueis says in his internal commentary:

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Plagueis is directly equating the power to be his equal with secrets that he does not yet know of. And, as I've stated beforehand, he is indeed unaware of the works of Naga Sadow, whose abilities is among one of the cornerstones of Exar Kun's entire knowledge base(see the incoming scan):

Darth Sidious, Essential Guide to the Force wrote:One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago.

Knowledge that Sidious himself considers dangerous enough that he paranoidly clings onto it lest someone else gets their hands on it:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen71

To reiterate, Darth Plagueis was unaware of the works of Naga Sadow which Darth Sidious gains long after he murders his master. Knowledge Darth Sidious himself states was passed down through Freedon Nadd to Exar Kun.

Darth Plagueis is not basing his claim off of anyone's demonstrated powers. Indeed, that's the whole point. The exception to his own rule is secrets or Force techniques that he is unaware of. And that is explicitly something Exar Kun canonically has obtained.

Let's look at another example: the Dark Reaper; more importantly, the technique wielded to defeat it:

The Official Star Wars Fact File 107 wrote:The ancient Jedi Master warned that the knowledge he would pass to Anakin would let him resist the effects of the Force-stripping Harvester and the Dark Reaper it activated, but would perhaps give him too much power.

So this in particular is very important, Ulic Qel-Droma thinks that his own power would make Anakin Skywalker himself too powerful. But let's dig deeper:

The Official Star Wars Fact File 107 wrote:Although the knowledge given to Anakin allowed him to destroy the Dark Reaper, Obi-Wan was uncomfortable with the power that his Padawan now wielded.

So, this knowledge acts as a permanent increase to Anakin Skywalker's power, that makes Obi-Wan Kenobi uneasy.

What is this technique, exactly?

Ulic Qel-Droma to Anakin Skywalker, The Clone Wars (Video Game) wrote:"Yes, I can teach you to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effects."

So, this permanent power boost to Anakin Skywalker's power is literally just a manner of harnessing the power of the Force that Ulic thinks would make Anakin too powerful, which makes Obi-Wan feel uneasy about Anakin's permanent power state. We're still not yet finished, as there's this quote:

Star Wars: The Clone Wars Prima Official Strategy Guide wrote:Follow the advice of Ulic Qel-Droma throughout this fight and you grow more powerful than you can imagine.

Anakin Skywalker permanently grows more powerful than he can imagine, less than a month after directly dueling Darth Tyranus:

Attack of the Clones Novelisation wrote:For the first time, Count Dooku lost his little confident smile. He had to work furiously to keep Anakin's blade at bay, dodging more than parrying. He tried to step out to the side, but stopped as if he had hit a wall, and his eyes widened a bit when he realized that this young Padawan, in the midst of that assault, had used the Force to block his exit.

"You have unusual powers, young Padawan," he sincerely congratulated. His little grin returned, and gradually Dooku put himself back on even footing with Anakin, trading thrust for slash and forcing Anakin to dodge and parry as often as he tried to strike.

Lord Tyranus, who is an equal of Grand Master Yoda per George Lucas:

George Lucas, Attack of the Clones commentary wrote:"I knew they were equal to each other and it was a hopeless gesture."

So, Ulic Qel-Droma is able to teach Anakin Skywalker a way of harnessing the Force that permanently makes him more powerful as Ulic guides him, more powerful than he can imagine even after Attack of the Clones.

Now, I won't wax poetic about what the implications are for Ulic Qel-Droma here, because the point is:

Darth Plagueis wrote:If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Indeed, then there's the Dark Holocron:

The Official Star Wars Fact File 116 wrote:Dooku had at his disposal a Sith holocron. This powerful and ancient dark side resource enhanced his own powers and helped to entice other Force users into the Separatist cause.

Guess who else recovered the Dark Holocron:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 4249301-kun%20kills%20odan-urr3

Indeed, it's the most powerful Sith Holocron in the mythos which probably qualifies for the holocrons containing 'secrets' that had 'yet to surface':

The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology wrote:The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.

Darth Plagueis's knowledge gap seriously cannot be understated here. We have direct evidence of his peers or successors gaining more and more knowledge that Exar Kun would have and that's without Exar Kun's own words:

Exar Kun, Dark Apprentice wrote:"I could show you techniques that were lost thousands of years ago, secret rites and hidden doorways of power that no weak Jedi Master like Skywalker dares to touch."

But to double down for a second here, you claim:

For one, Plagueis' extensive knowledge of Kun and the ancients in general provides a lot of authority behind his opinion, and I do think it scales him above every known feat.

You're gonna need to provide a hell of a lot more proof than that to suggest that Plagueis's knowledge of the Ancient Sith is 'extensive' and that Plagueis is aware of 'all known feats'. Especially not when Darth Plagueis's actual stated conception of Exar Kun's grandest feat is:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate.

It's not the showdown over Yavin IV or destroying Freedon Nadd or the Ulic Qel-Droma duel or the Dark Reaper. No, Plagueis thinks a laundry list of things that King Ommin could do is a grand set of examples of ancient Sith sorcery.

Plagueis is provably unable to fit within the parameters that you have set for his supremacy because he is woefully short of being an accurate authority on his own. So, your attempted bind and all your intent appeals are empty and thus you concede to stated binds that you've failed to even acknowledge nevermind counter that are direct power comparisons. Maybe something like this:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 57523910

That was changed on starwars.com to merely 'one of the most powerful.' Now, that doesn't necessitate a retcon of the statement; all other contexts notwithstanding, but I would say that a blurb exclusively for starwars.com holds more weight than others, and in this light we are being told Darth Plagueis is one of the most powerful Sith who ever lived not the.
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

July 25th 2021, 8:02 pm
Good post
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

July 25th 2021, 9:26 pm
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Part 2 coming or what???
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Part Two

July 26th 2021, 1:11 am
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You keep saying that the intent bubble around Plagueis is greater than that around Muur.... that'd be great for you if all Muur had was intent. But he doesn't, he has statements and feats in droves.

First of all, Karness Muur's return to the flesh and taking over the galaxy is stated to be his destiny, as it really doesn't matter who his host is beyond Morne:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 20210710

Indeed, Celeste Morne is literally using Muur's own power to keep herself alive, actively has her own learned techniques and is still losing control to Muur despite this:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images13
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images14

It's quite literally stated that Morne has to be put in stasis to prevent Muur from growing stronger and overwhelming her mentally:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Unknow10

Something that Ostrander has supported:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images15

So if Karness Muur breaks free from Celeste Morne and gains a proper host that he can control he will truly live again and perhaps be the strongest Sith in the galaxy.

Something supported here, where Darth Krayt is stated to have by 'far' the most powerful Force lightning and telekinesis of the entire era; but is outshone by Karness Muur:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Unknow10

Which is important, because Krayt is just incredibly strong, as A'sharad Hett, he's able to take down an enraged Anakin Skywalker after Attack of the Clones:


SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 55996110

He's then able to face Obi-Wan Kenobi after Revenge of the Sith and do incredibly well in his own right:

The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Ben did not know whether Hett was aware that Anakin Sky walker had become Darth Vader. But if Hett knew-as Qui-Gon's spirit claimed-that Anakin was responsible for killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother, Ben could only imagine what Hett might do if he discovered the existence of Anakin Skywalker's son. Ben suspected that Hett knew nothing about Luke, if only because Luke was still alive. If Hett's sole purpose on Tatooine had been to kill Luke, Luke would probably be dead already. Now, as Hett approached, Ben ban-ished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind.

Hett stopped in front of Ben, standing so close that Ben had to be careful not to inhale too deeply, for the stench of Hett's filthy robes and wrappings was almost overwhelming. Gazing into the red lenses of the Tusken's goggles, Ben said, "Master Hett."

"The Force be with you, Master Kenobi," replied Hett, his voice remarkably calm. "So, you too survived Order 66. I thought I was alone. What brings you to Tatooine, let alone these trackless wastes?"

"You do, Master Hett," Ben said without hesitation. Keeping his eyes fixed on Hett's goggles, he continued, "You lead these Tuskens as their warlord. Not some-thing a Jedi should do. "

"Do not lecture me, Obi-Wan," Hett replied, still calm and without any hint of threat. "We were both gen-erals in the Clone Wars, 'warlords' for a republic that turned on us. " Hett shifted his feet slightly and turned to look past Ben and let his gaze travel across the moisture farm. "The Tuskens have been hunted and killed by both settlers and farmers. Jedi defend those who need help. Sometimes you defend life by taking the life of the aggressor."

"Past mistakes do not justify current ones," Ben said, not letting his eyes stray from Hett. "The danger is in becoming what you fight. It was the trap that the Jedi fell into. It is the trap that takes you now. It must stop. You must see that, A'Sharad Hett."

"I do not," Hett replied grimly. "I was raised to man-hood amongst Tuskens by my father, Sharad Hett, the greatest Jedi of his age. He taught me to think and act as a Tusken." He remained facing the farm but gestured to the mounted Tuskens, and raised his voice as he said, "These are my people ! Will the settlers stop killing Tuskens?"

Ben did not answer. He believed that the Tuskens could kill every settler on Tatooine and their hunger for violence would still be unsatisfied.

Taking Ben's silence as a negative response, Hett said, "Then blood calls for blood ! The settlers will be forced to abandon the land . . . or be buried beneath it!"

"I cannot permit that," Ben said as he drew his light-saber. "You were a great Jedi, Hett, and the son of a great Jedi, but you have given yourself over to revenge. It stops here." Ben ignited his lightsaber.

"You will have a Jedi funeral, Master Kenobi," Hett said. "That I promise."

Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two light-sabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experi-enced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today.

Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw .

Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflex-ively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's .

Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Hett crumpled to his knees. His tribesmen watched as Ben stepped forward, leaned down to grip the top of Hett's facemask, and then pulled the mask off his head.

Red: A'sharad Hett is able to tag Obi-Wan numerous times throughout their duel. Obi-Wan has not let his skills decrease in the time between then and Mustafar (less than two years) and knows that any distracting thoughts, be they about Anakin, Luke, the environment, his age or Hett's skill, would only get him killed.

Blue: An environmental disadvantage is assumed by Kenobi.

Orange: Kenobi is trying not to kill Hett.

Blue: Really isn't important here, given the following duel:

The Phantom Menace wrote:He carried a lightsaber of another make, and the weapon was cutting at the Jedi Master even before the attacker's feet had touched the ground. Qui-Gon, surprised by the other's quickness and ferocity, barely blocked the blow with his own weapon, the blades sliding apart with a harsh rasp. The attacker spun away in a whirl of dark clothing, then attacked anew, lightsaber slashing at his intended prey, face alight with a killing frenzy that promised no quarter.

Anakin was back on his feet, staring at them, clearly unable to decide what he should do. Fighting to hold his ground, Qui-Gon caught sight of him out of the corner of his eye.

"Annie! Get out of here!" he cried out.

His attacker closed with him again, forcing him back, striking at him from every angle. Even without knowing anything else, Qui-Gon knew this man was trained in the fighting arts of a Jedi, a skilled and dangerous adversary. Worse, he was younger, quicker, and stronger than Qui-Gon, and he was gaining ground rapidly. The Jedi Master blocked him again and again, but could not find an opening that would provide any chance of escape.

"Annie!" he screamed again, seeing the boy immobilized. "Get to the ship! Tell them to take off Go, go!"

Hammering at the demonic-faced attacker with renewed determination, Qui-Gon Jinn saw the boy at last begin to run.

They could see Qui-Gon Jinn now, engaged in battle with the dark-garbed, demonic figure. The combatants surged back and forth across the flats, lightsabers flashing brightly with each blow struck, sand and grit swirling in all directions. Qui-Gon's long hair streamed out behind him in sharp contrast to the smooth horned head of his adversary. The pilot Ric took the spacecraft toward them quickly, skimming the ground barely higher than a speeder bike, coming in from behind the attacker. Anakin held his breath as they closed on the fighters. Ric's hand slid over the control that would lower the ramp, easing it forward carefully.

"Stand by," he ordered, freezing them all in place as he swung the ship about.

The combatants disappeared in a fresh swirl of sand and the glare of Tatooine's twin suns. All eyes shifted quickly to the viewscreens, searching desperately.

One would think that if the sand was a major deciding factor in a duel then it'd be readily apparent, but in both duels the sand is not at all relevant. The most Hett does is kick sand up without even intending to.

Orange: This is likely the part where people would point out that Kenobi was not aiming to kill Hett, so he's fighting on the defensive. Obi-Wan Kenobi is fighting defensively.... no shit. Kenobi was always going to be fighting defensively, and it's this part that gets important:

Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics. He drove a series of flashing thrusts toward Kenobi's legs to draw the Jedi Master into a flipping overhead leap so that Dooku could burn through his spine from kidneys to shoulder blades-and this image, this plan, was so clear in Dooku's mind that he almost failed to notice that Kenobi met every one of his thrusts without so much as moving his feet, staying perfectly centered, perfectly balanced, blade never moving a millimeter more than was necessary, deflecting without effort, riposting with flickering strikes and stabs swifter than the tongue of a Garollian ghost viper, and when Dooku felt Skywalker regain his feet and stride once more toward his back, he finally registered the source of that blinding defensive velocity Kenobi had used a moment ago, and only then, belatedly, did he understand that Kenobi's Ataro and Shii-Cho had been ploys, as well.

Kenobi had become a master of Soresu.

Dooku found himself having a sudden, unexpected, overpowering, and entirely distressing bad feeling about this . . .

His farce had suddenly, inexplicably, spun from humorous to deadly serious and was tumbling rapidly toward terrifying. Realization burst through Dooku's consciousness like the blossoming fireballs of dying ships outside: this pair of Jedi fools had somehow managed to become entirely dangerous.

These clowns might-just possibly-actually be able to beat him.

No sense taking chances; even his Master would agree with that. Lord Sidious could come up with a new plan more easily than a new apprentice.

He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

A'sharad Hett lands more blows on Obi-Wan Kenobi than Darth Tyranus could in a duel. This is not an alien idea, of course, as Jan Duursema, who helped author the Republic and Legacy series of comics suggests that Darth Krayt can definitely defeat Darth Tyranus:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Unknow11

The same Darth Krayt who was outshone by Karness Muur in a limited form, who would possibly be the strongest Sith in Legacy per Ostrander should he come free of Morne's trap. Karness Muur in his prime state being even more considerably powerful.

That's the Karness Muur that Exar Kun is stated to be more powerful than, and that's the Karness Muur who is very clearly and demonstratably within the power dynamics of the Revenge of the Sith beings.

As far as Darth Malak is concerned, there are two responses to this. Firstly, and more relevantly, why would Darth Malak amplified by the Star Forge be within the scope of Plagueis and Sidious, given supremacy quotes aren't taken with amplified individuals in mind? You have no historical claims to Revan, and certainly none to the Sith Emperor. So, how exactly is Darth Malak of any relevance to this debate where Darth Sidious is concerned?

You see, you've made the same mistakes as you made with the whole Plagueis claim. That Exar Kun's feats represent an utter limit of his power, but the only instances we have are: Ood Bnar's Force Shield being impenetrable, who is amplified by the living Force nexus of Ossus, that can tank direct hits from ten supernova waves that should have dusted the entire rock and the battle of Yavin IV against more than 30,000 Jedi. Malak scales above Exar Kun's feats, but those feats aren't his upper limits and those that are, are either Kun massively hindered a'la Galen Marek or something neither Malak or Sheev have a chance in hell against either.

You're running out of arguments, my friend.

You're also just utterly failing to provide any sufficient defense against the New Republic era comparisons, many of which happen to be fatal for you. You claim that the Plagueis intent, Malak and Sidious quotes managed to indirectly change that. But they can't, and why can't they? Because statements can't override events:

Star Wars VS Debating in 2021 - Part I - Shedding Limitations wrote:Event-based scaling, as the name suggests, references scaling derived from events that dictate the material in-universe lore. This scaling is inviolable unless the event itself is retconned out of continuity, which is very rare and generally involves an explicit LFL directive. Examples of event-based scaling:

• Dooku is forever bound by the material in-universe event and mechanics of his defeat to Anakin in 2005's Revenge of the Sith, regardless of what he does in post-2005 sources—regardless if he telekinetically shatters a planet or defeats an unchained Abeloth under explicitly normal conditions. Anakin would simply become the beneficiary of such feats to the extent they are correlated to combat applicable power and the other factors relevant to his victory as shown and described in Revenge of the Sith sources. Further, if a novelization later had or has Set Harth stride on-page and beat down Anakin during Order 66, Dooku is similarly forever bound by such.

• Given even in-universe omniscient beings are bound by the out-of-universe timeline, in-universe limited being statements (e.g. anything spoken, written, or thought-of by a character, such as New Republic historians writing Yoda and Mace Windu are the most powerful Jedi to ever walk the Jedi Temple in 2002) must likewise be subject to the out-of-universe timeline. However, if a character creates a new material in-universe event through a statement, future out-of-universe content must nevertheless be beholden to it. For example, if Obi-Wan says him and Anakin fought on Suspectron in a novel, all other LFL works must respect that as a part of the cohesive LFL universe canon. Consequently, Ajunta Pall is forever bound by 2003's Knights of the Old Republic's revelation that the Korriban Star Map "was where our power came from," had "so much power, it is blinding," why the Exiles "had more power than those before us," "our oldest secret," etc. Regardless of what Pall does in post-2003 sources—regardless if he lays waste to worlds or Force drains armies of Jedi—the physical in-universe lore event that the Exiles basked in the power of the Star Map still exists.

And this is the part where you're well and truly fucked, mate.

The Spirit of Exar Kun fights the collective Jedi Academy on Yavin Four, he is at first trapped in a ring of light side energy, but is actually destroyed by lightsaber attacks and Streen's cyclone:

Champions of the Force wrote:The glow continued to brighten as the synergy between the trainees grew more powerful, weaving threads to reinforce their weak spots, to emphasize their strengths.

Streen wasn't sure exactly when another image joined the Jedi candidates. He saw a new form without a physical body-short and hunched, with withered hands held in front of it. A misshapen funnel face, whiskered with tentacles, stared with small eyes hooded by a shelf of brow. Streen recognized the ancient Jedi Master Vodo-Siosk Baas, who had spoken to them from the Holocron.

Kun's image also saw the ancient Jedi Master, and his expression froze in a sculpted grimace of astonishment.

"Together Jedi can overcome their weaknesses," Master Vodo said in a bubbly, congested voice.

"Exar Kun, my student-you are defeated at last."

"No!" the shadow screamed in a night-rending voice as the silhouette fought to discover a part of the circle he could breach.

"Yes," came another voice, a strong voice. Opposite Master Vodo glimmered the faint, washed-out form of a young man in Jedi robes. Master Skywalker.

"The way to extinguish a shadow," Cilghal said in her calm and confident voice, "is to increase the light."

Kirana Ti stepped forward with the lightsaber that had been built by Gantoris. Streen met her with Luke Skywalker's lightsaber. The two stared into each other's eyes, nodded, and then struck with the brilliant luminous blades.

Their beams crossed in the middle of Exar Kun's shadowy body-pure light intersecting pure light with an explosion of lightning. The flash of dazzling white seemed as bright as an exploding sun.

Darkness flooded out of the shade of Exar Kun. The blackness shattered, and fragments flew around the circle, seeking a weak heart in which to hide. Streen and Kirana Ti kept their lightsabers crossed, the energy sizzling and searing.

With the Force, Streen touched the winds again. The air inside the grand audience chamber swirled with increasing coriolis force to form a whirlwind. The cyclone grew tighter in an invisible knot around the shredded shadow, trapping it and carrying it up toward the rooftop and out, flinging it into the vast emptiness.

Exar Kun vanished with only a brief, curtailed scream.

The Jedi Knights stood joined together for a final moment, relishing the shared Force. Then, in exhaustion and relief and triumph, they separated from each other. The unearthly glow dissipated around them.

Indeed, the combined power involved is as follows:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 20201013
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 2017-111
Galaxy Magazine 8: The Deadly Dozen wrote:Millennia later, Kun’s spirit was freed by Kyp Durron, a Jedi student of Luke Skywalker. It would take the power of a group of Jedi students and Skywalker himself to defeat Kun and banish his spirit.
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

Most importantly, this involves Luke himself. Luke states outright that he felt the power of the joining flowing into him during the battle:

Children of the Jedi wrote:"Yes,” said Luke, remembering the power of the Force flowing into him as he’d battled Exar Kun for the final time,

And that becoming a spirit in Jedi Academy actually made him stronger:

New Rebellion wrote:Luke was raising his lightsaber, his heart pounding. He was reaching out with the Force, going back to the place he had gone when he first fought Exar Kun. He would be out of his body but protected within the Force. Just as Ben had done in his battle with Darth Vader.

Luke would come back even stronger, and he would guide Leia to defeat Kueller.

This is what is said about Luke immediately after Exar Kun's destruction:

Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

So not only do we have proof of Luke Skywalker's spirit being amplified, we also have proof of Luke becoming even more powerful in his spiritual state and him being more powerful than ever before specifically due to this event.

So Luke's spirit in a more powerful state than it is usually, is unable to break free of the bonds on his spirit, which Kun is evidently maintaining with his existence:

Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

Which is evident, given that Kun's literally about to claim his soul completely:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen13

So Luke Skywalker in what's stated repeatedly to be he's strongest state, and everyone else, combine together to trap Exar Kun, and then destroy him with one of his own weapons; depicted as Kun's weakness, combined with Luke's lightsaber.

This is far greater power than what was needed to cut Dark Emperor Palpatine's connection to the Force off:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 47884610

And note, that Palpatine himself repeatedly goes all out when he unleashes his storms:

Palpatine, Dark Empire Audio Drama wrote:Yes. Did I not warn you? I’ve played along with your Jedi dueling games long enough. Now, you will experience my full potency. I live as energy. I am the dark side!

The Exar Kun that they destroyed is especially weakened in that state as well, besides the norm of maintaining control of Kyp Durron, providing him power and keeping Luke bound to the spirit realm:

Corran Horn, The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:"The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun’s dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Sun Crusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out."

I, Jedi wrote:My thinking was that Kun, still taxed from his having funneled enough power through Streen to create that cyclone

He's also weaker than normal due to the circumstances:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:She[Tionne] supposes that the students have a chance of defeating him, since Kun no longer has his servants to draw power from, he[Streen] is his only source.

I, Jedi wrote:Gantoris was on Yavin just over two weeks before his death, which could be seen as a cap to one cycle. Kyp arrived a week or so later and was here just over a week before he stole the Headhunter. Inside a week he came back and dropped Luke like a hot rock. By rights the dark man should have been back preying on us within days after Luke's defeat, but he wasn't, and this frightened me.
*
The only vaguely positive explanation for Exar Kun's dormancy that I could come up with was that his effort to draw the Sun Crusher from Yavin and to down Luke had tired him out. I had no way to determine how powerful Exar Kun could be, but it struck me as possible that he'd expended a lot of energy to defeat a Jedi Master. There was no telling how long it would take for him to recover.
*
"I know I can buy us time, but not much. At the rate he recovers, Kun should be ready for something tomorrow, maybe tonight."
*
My thinking was that Kun, still taxed from his having funneled enough power through Streen to create that cyclone, would take the chance at having Streen use the Headhunter to kill Luke.
*
"Council of war, good. Right now, not good." I sighed. "Kun has been defeated tonight. He's not going to be coming back right away."
*
"Right. It will have to shine so brightly no shadow can withstand it." I looked around at all of them. "That's your job. When he comes for Luke again, you give him more light than he can ever handle."
*
"Not going to happen." I leaned forward, holding myself up by posting my arms on the table. "Up to this point, Exar Kun has acted on his own schedule. He's moved when he wants to move, done what he's wanted to do. Not anymore. Tomorrow evening, as night is coming on, we'll force him to act. He won't be ready, but he'll think he can still beat us. He'll be wrong."
*
I managed a weak smile. "Bait. Kun's heading into a trap. A big trap."
*
She weighed my words. "Any chance he can get out of it?"
*
"Shouldn't be able to. It really is over for him."

Exar Kun as a spirit is objectively nothing compared to Exar Kun in his living state, by way of accolades, events, character statements, author statements and demonstrated power, as I lined out in my first post.

Based on actual events in the lore, Revenge of the Sith Darth Sidious is far and away beneath Return of the Jedi Emperor Palpatine, who is far beneath Dark Emperor Palpatine; who is now stated to be a 'chaotic nexus of dark side energy.' Who Luke Skywalker amplified by Leia and Anakin Solo is able to cut off from the Force. Luke Skywalker in Jedi Academy becomes stronger than ever due to his experiences against the spirit of Exar Kun; who is stomp gaps beneath Exar Kun' prime incarnation.

This is supported by the fact that the spirit of Exar Kun with Reborn Palpatine is stated to be among the strongest dark side nexuses that Luke Skywalker has ever faced:

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face.

As well as by Tom Veitch's recent statement that Exar Kun in Tales of the Jedi, which he was the author of, is equal to or stronger than Palpatine in Dark Empire, which he also authored:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen72
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