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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 2nd 2021, 11:23 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Champion of the Dark Side is the ruling leader of the dark side faction, the two greatest of this faction must fight to the death to claim the Mantle once and for all: Meatpants of the rank Sith Lord and I, LadyKulvax at the rank of Dark Councillor.


"There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing."

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 87364711

Dark Lord of the Sith Exar Kun as of Tales of the Jedi - The Sith Wars #6 Dark Lord

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 2fd9c111

Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Sidious as of Episode III: Revenge of the Sith

Setting: The ancient Sith council pull Kun and Sidious across time to their Valley, to see which of the two are truly deserving and worthy to wear the Mantle of Dark Lord

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Korrib10
(This setting provides no effect on the powers of the combatants)

Rules:

- Lucasfilm Licensing Policy is strictly adhered to, including but not limited to the OOU dating of both IU and OOU statements not applying post-publishing date.
- There will be 3 posts per side - of 20,000 characters each at maximum - and a maximum of 2 months in which to release a response.
- Mace Windu sucks.


Last edited by LadyKulvax on June 9th 2021, 8:43 pm; edited 1 time in total
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 9:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Luke Skywalker is stated to be near Emperor Palpatine, even as of Dark Empire, on numerous occasions in numerous sources, both IU and OOU, showing a distinct narrative regarding his placement:

1.Luke Skywalker is too strong for Dark Emperor Palpatine; however this is an IU source not taking into account the circumstances. This does not matter to me, as I doubt Luke Skywalker is going to be able to deal at all with Dark Emperor Palpatine if he's not at least on par with the Emperor in 4ABY:
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Cpaciw10

2.Corran Horn deems 11ABY Luke Skywalker to be able to more than handle Dark Emperor Palpatine, despite being well aware of Palpatine filling the galaxy with his darkness:

I, Jedi wrote:The despair in her voice found an ally in the fear writhing into my belly. It had never seemed odd to me that Kyp had been able to slam me into a wall because he had always been more powerful than me. Even when I felt the other presence reinforcing him and got hammered by the combination of them, I never imagined that they could be more powerful than Luke Skywalker. I had even rationalized away the dark man’s ability to avoid detection as his being talented in that area, just as I was talented in the area of image projection.

Had I even dreamed Luke was in danger I would have worked harder to convince him we had to act. The saliva in my mouth soured. When we start handing out citations for failure, let me get in the front of the line. I’d told Luke we were dealing with a sociopathic murderer, but I’d not convinced him of the gravity of that situation. He seemed to be in a position to handle it and all he wanted from me was information that would have given him a direction.

And I let him do just that. I closed my eyes for a moment and wanted to smack my head with the heel of my hand. What had I been thinking? I was the one who had experience with such monsters, not Luke Skywalker. I surrendered responsibility for such things to him when he was no more able to deal with it than he felt we were ready to deal with the fate of the universe. My mistake was the reverse of his, yet mine compounded his.

The pure arrogance and stupidity of those ideas slammed hard into me. Luke Skywalker had dealt with Darth Vader and the Emperor, even the Emperor Reborn. If they weren’t monsters, monsters didn’t exist. Master Skywalker was more than capable of dealing with them, which made his condition now that much more stunning and terrifying.
Dark Empire wrote:"No, I see it, too. The dark side of the Force grows stronger throughout the galaxy."
Dark Empire II wrote:"You have filled the galaxy with your darkness..."

3.Luke Skywalker's light blur is able to favorably contest Dark Emperor Palpatine's darkness:
Dark Empire I Audiodrama wrote:LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong. They're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them. I feel waves of power- the dark side and the light. But, I feel the light... is winning!

Luke Skywalker as of 11ABY, after the final defeat of Exar Kun, is stated to shine with an inner brightness stronger than ever:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:Luke clapped him on the back and smiled with dark-ringed eyes that shone with an inner brightness stronger than ever before. As he conquered each seemingly insurmountable obstacle, Luke's Jedi powers grew greater and greater- but, like Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda, a Jedi Master learned to use his powers even less, relying on wits instead of showmanship.

Even 12ABY Luke Skywalker himself in a rare display of confidence, believes he can defeat Emperor Palpatine:

Darksaber wrote:If Ben hadn’t taught your father,” said Callista softly, “your father probably wouldn’t have been strong enough to kill Palpatine … nor would he have been in a position to do so. You couldn’t have done it,” she added.
“Not then, no.” He’d never thought of it that way.

Kyp Durron being a rival of Luke Skywalker in power throughout 25ABY to 27ABY is a story beat repeated throughout numerous sources:

New Jedi Order - Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial wrote:But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

The New Jedi Order: Ylesia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.

Kyp Durron as of 40ABY, states he is no weaker than he was under the influence of Exar Kun, yet no stronger. Being superior in his skills with the Force but less determined than he was then under Exar Kun's control:

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:"When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

Yet we have Kueller being stated to be much more powerful than Kyp Durron was under the spirit of Exar Kun's influence:

New Rebellion wrote:Luke had never had a student that powerful, of that he was certain. Whoever it was became powerful after he had left the academy. So powerful that a man like Brakiss, who had so much talent in the Force that the Empire had taken him, as a baby, to train in the dark side, was terrified of him. Once Leia had asked Luke what it felt like when he knew someone steeped in the dark side was near. He hadn’t been trained enough as a young Jedi to understand the feeling. It was only later, as he grew in strength, that he understood. And he couldn’t explain it then. He could now. It felt as if a tornado had struck in the middle of a beautiful day. It felt like a blast of cold air in a warm room. It felt as if someone beloved had just died.

Kueller enjoys loose comparisons to Emperor Palpatine as of Return of the Jedi in power, with vastly quicker stated growth in power:

New Rebellion wrote:But this wasn’t Brakiss. That much he knew. This was someone else. Someone equally familiar. And more powerful. Much more powerful to be felt from so far away. The feeling had a malevolence in it, though, that was unfamiliar. Except around Emperor Palpatine. Luke had felt it then. But this wasn’t Palpatine. This was someone else. Someone Luke had known.

New Rebellion wrote:Kueller had turned back to Luke, thrusting, parrying, thrusting, their sabers locked in a battle as loud and spark-filled as Luke's battle with Vader. Kueller's breath hissed through the mask, but it wasn't Vader's stentorian breathing that it imitated.

It was the Emperor's greedy gasping.


Luke staggered under Kueller's next blow, and barely managed to roll aside. His ankle kept buckling under him, but he forced himself to put weight on it. They had moved into the alleyway Luke had seen in that strange moment of vision. Stones littered the ground all around them, and the light only came through a small opening on either end. Luke could no longer see Leia.

Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Let the hate flow through you.

Kueller struck at him, his blow shattering a nearby rock. He was stronger. Much stronger. And his strength seemed to be increasing. Luke's arms were growing tired battling the power of Kueller's blade.

Then Kueller laughed, a gurgling, familiar laugh. The Emperor's laugh, the unamused choking of a slave to the dark side.

New Rebellion wrote:The presence had neared. It was strong in the dark side. He could feel the ripples, feel a power he hadn’t felt in a living being since he encountered the Emperor.

Even the likes of Mara Jade Skywalker from a great distance compares what she senses from Kueller to Palpatine, and is outright placing him beyond Luke Skywalker:

Mara Jade, New Rebellion wrote:“I haven’t felt power like this since Palpatine in the early days. If this continues, Han, Kueller will be stronger than the Emperor ever was, and he’ll do it quicker.”

12ABY Luke Skywalker holds Callista's powers to once have been as strong as his own, in both iterations of the Essential Chronology:

The Essential Chronology wrote:Though they could communicate only through a computer screen, Skywalker came to feel that Callista - someone whose strength in the Force was as great as his own - was a woman with whom he could spend the rest of his life.

New Essential Chronology wrote:Though they could communicate only through a computer screen, Skywalker came to feel that Callista - someone whose strength in the Force was as great as his own - was a woman with whom he could spend the rest of his life.

Yet, one thing criminally misunderstood about Callista is how much of a powerhouse she is, Callista not only manages to survive the death of her body, she then manages to survive Abeloth's godly willpower:

Fate of the Jedi: Conviction wrote:Luke could see a kaleidoscope of images, all drawn from Callista’s past, much of it with him, some of it from more ancient times. He marveled at her strength, the power it had required her to survive the loss of her original body, the strength it took her to remain partly Callista in the face of this overwhelming alien force.

And accomplishes a feat that Tahiri is stunned that Abeloth could pull off:

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:“Of course,” Saba replied. “But Abeloth entered the computer core and removed it—along with all our other backdoorz. She controlz all systemz in the Temple now.”
Tahiri’s eyes widened in alarm—or perhaps it was excitement. With humans, Saba could never tell.
“When you say entered,” Tahiri said, “do you mean Abeloth actually moved her Force presence into the circuits, like Callista did aboard the Eye of Palpatine’s computer?”

These feats from Callista and her equivalency to a Luke almost undoubtedly show the legitimacy of Luke Skywalker as of this timeline being with Emperor Palpatine as of 4ABY.

Exar Kun is noted to be the lone exception in Kueller's superiority over everyone bar the Emperor:

New Rebellion wrote:This Kueller had more Force capability than anyone she had encountered in years. Except Exar Kun, and he had been a spirit. Kueller was alive.

This is supported heavily, as when the Disciples of Ragnos strike a year later in 14ABY, Luke Skywalker immediately believes that it would take the combined strength of the Jedi Order to stop Marka Ragnos if he returned. Noting that the only experience Luke Skywalker had at this point with ancient Dark Lords of the Sith is the spirit of Exar Kun:

Luke Skywalker, Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy wrote:"If Ragnos is resurrected, there's no telling what he might be able to do. It will take all of our strength to stop him."

Indeed, this is almost exactly the same thing Luke Skywalker states was required to defeat the spirit of Exar Kun:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 2017-10-29

Indeed, they are portrayed as almost in the same vein at this point:

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy.

But better yet, 19ABY Luke Skywalker still immediately jumps to Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun as the two examples of some of the most powerful dark side focal points he'd ever faced:

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

Which is exactly the same sentiment he holds seven years earlier in 12ABY:

Children of the Jedi wrote:The mightiest Jedi in the universe, he reflected bitterly--that he knew of, anyway - come the destroyer of the Sun Crusher, the slayer of evil, who'd defeated the recloned Emperor and the Sith Lord Exar Kun.

Then we have the blatant equivalency of the spirit of Exar Kun and Emperor Palpatine:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:If Kyp could face this final test, Luke would know he'd passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured.

Exar Kun's own sentiments are also far from what you'd expect if he was merely far beneath the likes of Palpatine, given he sees Palpatine's reign as the opportune time to return to the galaxy and rise once more into Godhood:

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:He bides his time in his domain, waiting for just the right opportunity to return.

The mysteries of Exar Kun remain hidden even today as the evil buried there continues to seethe, waiting for a chance to rise once more… maybe sooner than expected. Currently, as the Galactic Civil War continues to rage, Rebel forces have moved into the Temple of Exar Kun.

'Chapter 9: The Fury of Exar Kun' announcement, Star Wars Galaxies, LucasArts wrote:Exar Kun's spirit is so strong and malevolence so great, that he has withstood death for 4,000 years, waiting for an opportunity to finally obtain the godhood he so desires.

All of this gathered evidence, and with all available reconciliations, ends up with a very distinct stance of Dark Emperor Palpatine > Spirit of Exar Kun > Kueller > 11ABY Dark Lord Durron ~ 40ABY Kyp Durron = in the ballpark of 25-27ABY Luke Skywalker >>> Callista Ming ~ 11ABY Luke Skywalker >/~ 4ABY Emperor Palpatine

Note: Due to the inconsistencies between Bantam Books and Dark Horse comics regarding the true nature of Dark Emperor Palpatine and the 'truth' surrounding him and his nature, the above is therefore adjusting for that.

But this also operates independently of all of the Kyp Durron and Luke Skywalker NJO drama, as Exar Kun's spirit is directly stated to be beyond the power of 11ABY Luke:

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:Afraid to challenge the dark power that had been sufficient to warp other students and defeat Master Skywalker.

I, Jedi wrote:"Kyp didn't like the menu." I winced as a twing rang through my ribs. "We had a discussion in the hallway, you didn't feel anything?" Heads all around the hallway shook, and I felt a cold dread begin to congeal in my stomach. If Exar Kun could mask the attack on me in such a way that Master Skywalker could not feel it barely fifteen meters away, then we were up against something more powerful than I'd cared to imagine existing.

Jedi Academy Sourcebok wrote:He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen_Shot_2019-11-11_at_4.27.38_pm

Jacen Solo, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

Kirana Ti, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.

Jedi Academy Vol.3: Champions of the Force wrote:With a wheezing cough as he expelled long-trapped air from his lungs and drew in a fresh breath, Master Skywalker groaned and sat up on the stone platform.

"You've-done it!" Luke said, gaining strength from each lungful of cool, clean air. The new Jedi Knights surged toward him. "You have broken the bonds."

Exar Kun is inarguably far from his strongest in every single way, having deteriorated in every manner:

1.Mentally:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20201202-081820_Discord

2.Energy reserves:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy.

3.Needs a physical body to restore his full power:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 20201213_120648

4.Kun had only just returned from Chaos:

Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Seven years after the Battle of Endor, when Luke Skywalker established an academy with the intention of rebuilding the Jedi Order, the spirit of the ancient Sith Lord Exar Kun returned to prevent the Jedi Brotherhood's resurrection. Three short years later, another Sith daemon, this time the Dark Lord Marka Ragnos, also was called back from the realm of Chaos to terrorize the galaxy.

5.Kun had his power massively reduced:

I, Jedi wrote:Twelve half-trained apprentices and two toddlers planning to annihilate someone who had survived an onslaught by the combined might of the Jedi of his age sounded ridiculous on the surface of it.

Domain of Evil, Star Wars Galaxies wrote:Exar Kun's essence remains trapped in his temple on Yavin 4. The Dark Lord of the Sith is far from powerless, and he bides his time in his domain, waiting for just the right opportunity to return.

Star Wars the Old Republic: Timeline 'The Exar Kun War' wrote:Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison Exar Kun's spirit in the temples on Yavin 4. From what we know, it remains there to this day.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 4354132-nomi%20sunrider%20wall%20of%20light%20on%20exar%20kun%203

6.The Jedi put in countermeasures to prevent Kun from returning at all:

Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide wrote:The Jedi launch a salvo of light side energy at the planet, trapping Kun's spirit there, but ravaging Yavin 4 in the process. Afterward, the Jedi built a city deep underground to nurture the world back to health and guarantee Kun never returns.

7.The most direct comparison is Exar Kun went from being an anchorless being to relying on his Temples to prevent his dissolution:
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images?q=tbn%3AANd9GcTJLF8keQS2xt4ht4aLUuQA9iOGaXeoNhhhrkJryOj2VYMdK2yY&usqp=CAU

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Exar Kun-who didn't technically die so much as merge with the dark side and retain his identity-resisted the dissolution of his spirit by drawing on the remarkable focusing energies of the Massassi temples on Yavin 4.

8.Restoring his power takes more than years of feeding on dozens of worshippers:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Lingering_Harmony_28card29.JPG

9.Indeed, Kun was stopped before he could become too powerful:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20200607-142432_Gallery

Simply put, Exar Kun as a spirit was never as strong as he was at his height in his prime. Especially given that Kun dies after this in official source material. Quite clearly still in his dying physical form, two years later:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Star-wars_-tales-of-the-jedi-the-sith-war-v1995-6-dark-lord-1996_1-page-27
It's dark. I'm trapped. I survived.. but I'm trapped.

Tom Veitch also confirms that Kun was most powerful when he was alive:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20210514-190547_Gmail

Whilst it was once problematic, due to the rise of your character in the mid-2000s. The arrival of Karness Muur in 2008 and then Exar Kun's supremacy quote in the last days of 2008, put a stop to that issue:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images-1

Exar Kun, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Kun, Exar. Once the most powerful and dangerous of the Dark Lords of the Sith, he was responsible for the deaths of millions four millennia before the Rise of the Empire.

An old reconciliation for Karness Muur was to use quotes regarding danger, rather than looking at quotes pertaining to Muur himself:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) RCO096_w_1554691269

1.Not only is Muur's power increase being actively prevented by putting him in stasis.
2.Celeste Morne's body isn't even as powerful as Leia Organa's body during the Rebellion era. Thus Muur can't even use his full power without Morne's body seriously deteriorating, and she isn't even remotely a positive for Muur as stated by Ostrander:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) CVJId8A

Considering all of this, we also have to consider what is stated by George Lucas regarding the position of Lord Vader compared to Emperor Palpatine as of 18ABY:

George Lucas wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 118595225_1091566857928804_4080430109684954056_n

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Image0

Keeping in mind that Vader's state doesn't exactly change:

Revenge of the Sith wrote:And you rage and scream and reach through the Force to crush the shadow who has destroyed you, but you are so far less now than what you were. You are more than half machine, you are like a painter gone blind, a composer gone deaf, you can remember where the power was but the power you can touch is only a memory, and so with all your world-destroying fury it is only droids around you that implode, and equipment, and the table on which you were strapped shatters, and in the end, you cannot touch the shadow.

In the end, you do not even want to.

In the end, the shadow is all you have left.

Because the shadow understands you, the shadow forgives you, the shadow gathers you unto itself-

And within your furnace heart, you burn in your own flame.

This is how it feels to be Anakin Skywalker.

Forever…



Indeed, it is hard to imagine that Darth Vader's power resonating with the darkness of Emperor Palpatine, is somehow weaker than any other version of himself:

Return of the Jedi wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Yet this is still stated, as shown above, to be a Vader who would lose to the Jedi of The Phantom Menace.

There's really no way around this, Exar Kun smashes Darth Sidious as of Revenge of the Sith.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 1:35 pm
this was actually really good AP. i saw some things i disagree with, or that can be countered, but this was pretty damn legit. good job.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 5th 2021, 6:25 pm
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 1019854026
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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June 5th 2021, 7:23 pm
Great opener SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) 1289255181
The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 6th 2021, 7:48 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

I. Darth Plagueis


GEORGE, HOFFMAN AND LUCENO


Darth Plagueis wrote:From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

In the novel Darth Plagueis, published 2012, Darth Plagueis muses that he is not aware of any Sith who surpass him in power - or if they did, he is not aware of any knowledge they possessed that makes them more powerful than him. Given the extensive knowledge Plagueis had on Exar Kun, there’s no reason to believe that the opinion of Plagueis is incorrect from an IU perspective. However, this also applies via narrative intent as well. An interview with Luceno on the release of the book sheds light on this:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Pasted11

(Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20120221231624/http://theforce.net/latestnews/story/Interview_Plagueis_Author_James_Luceno_142844.asp )

Note that both George Lucas and Howard Roffman (President of Lucasfilm Licensing 1999-2012) were heavily involved in the process. Luceno “worked most closely with George’s right-hand man” and notes how he “had to bypass both Del Rey and the usual editorial staff at Lucasfilm and work directly with Howard”. He further notes importantly that the marketing text about the novel being “canon at the highest level” is true and that “a lot of the stuff” in the novel comes from the very top level of Lucasfilm, i.e. George Lucas and Howard Hoffman.

The establishment of Plagueis > Exar Kun is, therefore, not only based on Plagueis' reliable, IU affirmation, but also on the narrative intent that was line-edited and approved by George Lucas’ right-hand man (and by extension Lucas himself): Howard Hoffman. Such heavy LFL involvement from Lucas and Hoffman signifies that Plagueis’ position as more powerful than Kun comes from “canon at the highest level”, and per Shedding Limitations (SL) its release date of 2012 makes the scaling a dominating one with the Expanded Universe and the LFL hierarchy.

So, put simply and based on the most up-to-date published Legends material on the matter, Sidious > Plagueis > Exar Kun - a stance heavily monitored and approved as “canon at the highest level”.

II. Shedding Limitations

Something that I’ve noticed from your post is that you present a lot of evidence without necessarily committing to solid stances, as if I have to make the argument for you/you can snake out of them if I pin you down on something. You may also be attempting to trap me rhetorically. The only solid scaling chain you’ve provided is for Spirit Kun (and everything related to that, including Dark Empire). For Karness Muur and Vader’s power relative to Sidious, you’ve presented sources and implied an argument instead of firmly stating a position.

So, I’m going to be careful whilst addressing your post, but also establish why the sources you’ve provided in no way indicate anything different from ROTS Sidious > Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur.  

KARNESS MUUR

Whilst it was once problematic, due to the rise of your character in the mid-2000s. The arrival of Karness Muur in 2008 and then Exar Kun's supremacy quote in the last days of 2008, put a stop to that issue:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Images-1

It put a stop to that issue temporarily; from above it has already been established that the latest information from the highest level of canon is that Plagueis > Kun > Muur.

ANH Sidious = ROTS Sidious > pre-Order 66 Sidious > post-boost TPM Sidious > pre-boost TPM Sidious ~ Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur (per TCSWE)

So whatever Vader is factoring into his thoughts about him and Muur defeating Sidious, one could not argue for instance that Muur is the driving force/possess much of the power of the Emperor. Since Exar Kun and by extension Karness Muur are bound by Plagueis, and the Emperor has a considerable gap between himself and his old master, there is no way of arguing that Muur is relatable to Sidious in power in any way. Other factors like Vader’s POV being failable, Vader unlocking hidden resources, Vader not being aware of the Emperor’s true power etc. are given more weight. In fact, Vader’s strength as part of the equation would be most of it given the gap between Muur and Sidious with the new scaling.

In other words, Darth Plagueis is not only published years after this new Muur content, but the authorities who line-edited and supervised its creation (Lucas and his right-hand man Hoffman) vastly outstrip any authority from Ostrander/Jan or the standard LFL publishing process.

SPIRIT KUN

I’m gonna sum this up as: cool, so what?

Per SL, the new Muur content and the fact that Kun scaled over this new Muur via his quote in TCSWE unbound him from Sidious’ supremacy. However, this works against Kun, as Darth Plagueis was subsequently released in 2012, binding Muur and Kun under Plagueis.

To add icing to the cake, Daniel Wallace, one of the writers for TCSWE, had this to say about Bane and Sidious in 2012:

Daniel Wallace | Geekosity - Endnotes for Star Wars: Book of Sith part 3; 2012 wrote:Darth Bane views the dark side of the Force as a limited quantity, and that two recipients (one to wield the power, one as the designated successor) represents the greatest Force concentration achievable while still ensuring the future of the Sith Order.

Is Bane correct? I don't know. HE thinks he's correct. On some cosmic level I do too, and that the concentration brought about by the Rule of Two allowed the dark side to grow in strength until the era of Palpatine -- the most powerful dark lord in history."

That means Spirit Kun does not factor into the equation at all. Plagueis > living Kun, which is what we’re debating. If his spirit is weaker than his living incarnation, then Plagueis > living Kun > spirit Kun. If stronger, then it’s irrelevant because we’re not debating ROTS Sidious vs JA Kun.

And you know what that means: Muur and Kun are still bound by those sweet sweet Sheev supremacy quotes.

Dark Empire endnotes wrote:As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor: "The ability to destroy a planet - or even a whole system - is insignificant next to the power of the Force."

The Sith (Revenge of the Sith Collection) wrote:Finally - the Emperor - who should be fighting to save the Republic - is revealed as the most powerful and menacing Sith of all!

Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Their clash transcended the personal; when new lightning blazed, it was not Palpatine burning Yoda with his hate, it was the Lord of all Sith scorching the Master of all Jedi into a smoldering huddle of clothing and green flesh.

Death Star wrote:The Emperor was completely in concert with the dark side of the Force. He was the most powerful Sith who had ever existed.

Darth Maul, Sith Apprentice wrote:Meet Darth Sidious – the most powerful Sith Master who ever lived.

Legends Epic Collection: The Empire Volume 1 wrote:With the galaxy now ripe for conquest, the Emperor has become the most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the Dark Side of the Force, ordering the extermination of the Jedi Order with the aid of his apprentice, the deadly Darth Vader.

Insider #66: Who's Who: Imperial Grand Admirals wrote:Emperor Zaarin? The idea isn't as ludicrous as it sounds. Demetrius Zaarin gambled everything on an audacious coup d'état and nearly killed the most powerful Sith Lord the galaxy has ever known.

Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm wrote:When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

The Complete Visual Dictionary wrote:Beyond the vision of the Jedi Knights, somewhere within the darkness, the greatest master of evil ever to use Sith power bides his time. As his strength grows, his plans begin to shape the course of the galaxy, and his snares await the unsuspecting.

The New Essential Chronology wrote:Yoda went after Palpatine in the empty Senate chamber, but could not defeat the most powerful Sith Lord in history.

Clone Wars Adventures Panel By Panel wrote:Darth Sidious’ plans to unleash the Sith upon the galaxy and do away with the Jedi have been in development for decades. He is the most powerful practitioner of the Sith ways in modern times.

This list does not cover all of them, but you get the point.

III. Conclusion

From 2012’s Darth Plagueis, Exar Kun is bound under Plagueis and thus under Darth Sidious as of ROTS. JA Kun is not relevant to the debate, since either way his living incarnation is bound under Sidious. Muur’s 2008 stuff precedes the Plagueis novel, thus any arguments of Muur and by extension Kun being able to free themselves of the aforementioned binding do not hold water. So, the scaling stands:

ANH Sidious = ROTS Sidious > pre-Order 66 Sidious > post-boost TPM Sidious > pre-boost TPM Sidious ~ Plagueis > Exar Kun > Karness Muur (per TCSWE)



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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

June 6th 2021, 10:54 am
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Darth Plagueis wrote:From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Your entire rebuttal hinges on this quote. This is a fatal flaw on your part.

If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

Unfortunately for Darth Plagueis, he is absolutely correct:

Jedi Academy Sourcebook wrote:The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere. (Keep in mind that even Darth Vader, himself a Dark Lord of the Sith, did not know all there is to know about Sith powers.)

Something corroborated by Exar Kun himself:

Exar Kun, Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:"I could show you techniques that were lost thousands of years ago, secret rites and hidden doorways of power that no weak Jedi Master like Skywalker dares to touch."

Something further corroborated by Darth Sidious himself:

Darth Sidious, The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:One of the most powerful Sith alchemists was Naga Sadow, who left detailed records of his work within a Sith Holocron I came across some years ago.
SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screenshot_20200607-173415_Google_Play_Books

So not only does Plagueis not know everything Exar Kun knew, he doesn't even know everything about Naga Sadow's work given that Sidious finds out new knowledge about Sadow's work decades after the Muun had died.

But let's not end there. Luke Skywalker learns everything at the feet of Dark Emperor Palpatine:

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.

But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.

Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.

So Luke is inheriting knowledge from Dark Emperor Palpatine who is the most knowledgeable he has ever been:

The Ultimate Visual Guide wrote:Resurrected in a youthful clone body, Palpatine does not reveal himself immediately. Studying the dark side of the Force to become more powerful, his education results in three manifestos: The Book of Anger, The Weakness of Inferiors, and The Creation of Monsters.

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:Palpatine has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines. It is believed that he has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.

Yet this is what just one of Exar Kun's techniques does to a vastly more powerful and knowledgeable Master Luke Skywalker:

Jedi Academy Vol.2: Dark Apprentice wrote:He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body.
He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.

Not only does Luke not recognise the power being used against him but he also utterly fails to defend against it with his consummate knowledge.

So Plagueis's opinion is fine but his stated plausible exception isn't just fitting to Exar Kun but it is blown right through.

The level of involvement from LFL, absolutely doesn't matter because of this.

Besides that you decided to appeal to Daniel Wallace's endnotes for his book:

Book of Sith Endnotes wrote:If Darth Bane was there with Yoda in that diner, he'd counter that Yoda is using the wrong foodstuffs. Rather than pouring two really potent brewskis Yoda is instead like a person who adds a drop of beer into a thousand water glasses, then acts surprised when nobody gets drunk. Darth Bane views the dark side of the Force as a limited quantity, and that two recipients (one to wield the power, one as the designated successor) represents the greatest Force concentration achievable while still ensuring the future of the Sith Order.

Is Bane correct? I don't know. HE thinks he's correct. On some cosmic level I do too, and that the concentration brought about by the Rule of Two allowed the dark side to grow in strength until the era of Palpatine -- the most powerful dark lord in history.

He's not even framing the statement in a definitive manner, he's relaying his own thoughts about how right or wrong Bane is. Because if he was, he wouldn't be saying this on Twitter:

SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Screen70

You've utterly failed to produce anything that counters my post in any meaningful manner.
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SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants) Empty Re: SS - Champion of the Dark Side - Exar Kun (LadyKulvax) vs. Darth Sidious (Meatpants)

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