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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) Empty PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano)

March 7th 2022, 11:13 pm
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) Xoltho10

Xolthol as Master Shaak Ti during Revenge of the Sith
King Joker as Ahsoka Tano during The Clone Wars Season 7

Rules:

- intro + 2 + conclusion
- 5-7.5 k characters intro/ 10-15k characters first stance/ 20-25k second/ 2.5-3k conclusion
- 2 weeks
xolthol
xolthol
Level Five
Level Five

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano)

March 14th 2022, 2:37 am
Characters count: 4994/5000

*OPENING STANCE*

~Intro~

In this opening statement I will defend the superiority of Shaak-Ti over Ashoka Tano based on the following assertions:

(1) Ashoka Tano is hard-capped by TCW Maul.
(2) There is absolutely no proof that TCW Maul is far above its TPM iteration
(3) TPM Maul is in the same league than Qui Gon Jinn
(4) Qui Gon Jinn is by all mean bellow Shaak Ti

(1) Upper limit of Ashoka

Based on S7 of TCW and her confrontation with the Zabrak Sith [HERE] but also based on the interview of Dave Filoni on this particuliar fight [HERE] we have a clear proof that Ashoka is hard capped by Darth Maul:
  • it is clearly stated that  Maul is stronger than her {1}
  • being able to contend with him taxed her a lot {2}
  • Maul as usual underestimated her thus loosing the fight {3}


Based on this we know that Maul is stronger that Ashoka (which is capping), we also know that she need to work at her best to compete with him (now this is hard capping, no possibility for my opponent to pretend at some hidden hinderance for her).
But the most important part is in the third point and the overconfidence of Maul. Indeed, the same overconfidence of Maul allow a young TPM Kenobi (which have been absolutely dominated by Maul) despite a rage amp (coming from the death of Qui Gon Jinn) to defeat the Zabrak. And because the circumstance of both defeats are really similar (both have been desarmed and Maul have clearly the advantage) it seems not so illogic to assume that Maul would have been in the same state of mind thus allowing Ashoka (like Obi-Wan before her) to defeat Maul.

As a result of all of this we have a proof that the victory of Ashoka over Maul isn't equivalent to a proof for the Togruta Jedi to be in the same league than Maul. Moreover we have a strong clue that she may be way below him and still win the fight.  

  • {1} : "He is the stronger swordfighter "
  • {2} : "I wanted it to take a lot for Ashoka to compete at his level"
  • {3} : "he is very overconfident." and "he undersestimated his opponent and he failed time and again to overcome this flaw"


(2) Maul far above Maul ?

While it is pretty obvious that TPM Maul is below TCW Maul based on the following quotes:

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:
Savage was right. Maul's power was growing, because he had a purpose again, and a vision.

Maul had grown more powerful since the last time he'd been in Sidious's presence, before the Neimoidian invasion of Naboo had turned disastrous and Obi-Wan had bested him inside the Theed power core. His hermitage on Lotho Minor, his lessons on Umbara, his restoration by Mother Talzin, and his training of Savage had all strengthened him, made him a more worthy vessel for the dark side to fill with its power.

Darth Maul: Death Sentence wrote:
Hatred is a hard thing to kill. Darth Maul is a being consumed by hatred. I imagine this hatred -- this rage -- fueled him and kept him alive... and somewhere, somehow, that rage grew. As hard as it is to comprehend, padawan, coming back from near death may have made the Sith Lord stronger... and even more dangerous

Nonetheless none of this quote give us a precise idea of the increase, no term that can prove that TCW Maul is far above is former self. In addition to this we also have the fact that Mother Talzin only make Maul as strong as he was before:

The Clone War: The Sith Hunters wrote:
In the years following his defeat at the hands of Obi-Wan Kenobi, the rage that sustained Maul's body also consumed his sanity. Savage took his wounded brother to their homeworld of Dathomir, where Mother Talzin used her strange powers to heal his ravaged mind... and make his ruined body whole. Restored to his former power, the Sith Lord only has one desire... revenge!

As a result the time of growth of Maul wouldn't have been really long and because we don't have any proof of an insane growth, this is another clue for us not thinking that TCW Maul growth was huge.
Last but not least, we know that Maul was cut in half during TPM thus losing a big part of his midi-chlorian. Because of this (and by applying a comparison with what happened to Vader) the full potential power of Maul must have been extremly reduced and his ability to increase its power to.

To conclude this part I will just say that we have absolutely zero proof that TCW Maul isn't in the same league than TPM Maul.

(3) Qui Gon League

In opposition to a common idea, Maul haven't a clear superiority over Qui Gon Jinn during TPM. The following quotes are a clear proof of that:

Nick Gillard wrote:
And no fight was written with an inevitable conclusion, […] This makes an outcome all the more unexpected when it happens. Even for us watching the action on the stage

Episode I Journal : Darth Maul wrote:
But I must confess that this Jedi is a challenge.

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) 6871926-73015-5bk

the evil Sith Lord matches his might against equally formidable Jedi skills throughout the film, most memorably in the exciting climax

In addition to this, we have a clear proof that Maul rely on an external parameter to defeat Qui Gon

The Official Starships and Vehicles collection wrote:
Beyond the gates was the incredibly deep generator core, where waste products from the refining process were destroyed by high energy particle coils.

The relatively confined area would favour Maul's fighting style, making it incredibly difficult for the Jedi to counter him.

Despite this and as previously stated, the fight isn't at all one sided :

TPM Novelization wrote:
Stroke for stroke, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul battled about the rim of the melting pit, locked in a combat that seemed endless and forever and could be won by neither.

All of this proved that Qui Gon Jinn and Darth Maul are in the same league.

(4) The Togruta absolut superiority

In this section I will provide clear evidence for Shaak-Ti superiority over Qui Gon.

We know that ROTS Obi-Wan cannot defeat 3 magnaguards together {1}. At the opposite Shaak-Ti was able to fight (a minimum of) 12 magna-guards (four time more than what Obi-Wan cannot defeat) for an extended period of time {2} and she was able to destroy (at the very least) 4 of them. From this precise depiction we have a clear superiority of Shaak Ti over ROTS Kenobi.

A question remain: Is ROTS Kenobi above Qui-Gon Jinn ?

As shown in the previous part, Qui-Gon is on the same level than TPM Maul. However, we have seen Obi-wan being able to hold his own against both Maul and Savage during TCW {3}. Knowing that TCW Maul is slightly above its TPM iteration and that he had the reinforcement of Savage Oppress it is pretty obvious that this is above anything that Qui Gon could achieve. To put it more clearly the superiority of Kenobi over Qui Gon is (approximately) the power of Savage Oppress.

So we know have this clear scaling chain:
Shaak Ti >> ROTS Kenobi > Qui Gon Jinn.


{1}
ROTS Novelization wrote:
Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat,

{2} HERE

{3} HERE


~Conclusion~

As a result of my defended assertions, I have know this scaling chain:

Shaak-Ti >>> Qui Gon Jinn ~ Maul > Ashoka.

This clearly place Ashoka Tano far below Shaak Ti.

In my next post I will do a deeper analysis of:
- Shaak Ti skills as a duelist and her intrinsic advantage over Ashoka
- the full extent of Shaak Ti's force power and how massive it is in comparison to Ashoka's one.

@King Joker Your move sir !
King Joker
King Joker
Level One
Level One

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) Empty Out with the old, in with the new.

April 8th 2022, 7:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
My main objective with this opening post is to establish two core foundations: 1). Ahsoka’s level vis-a-vis Maul, and 2). the nature of Shaak Ti’s MagnaGuard feat. Both fights are unambiguously the peak performances of the Togrutas and where I sense the debate will orbit. Therefore, I’ll be deferring the more extensive respect thread dumps until the next post(s). Onwards!

The Duel on Mandalore




There are two distinct phases of the fight; one in the throne room, and one atop the scaffolding. A quick overview of each:

Maul and Ahsoka engage in intense bouts of lightsaber combat from 1:05 to 1:32, and again from 1:45 to 2:00. During the course of the fight, Maul manages to elbow Ahsoka in the face and disarm her of one of her lightsabers; in turn, Ahsoka rallies and kicks Maul, staggering him, and uses the Force to retrieve her second lightsaber. The throne room duel concludes with Ahsoka gaining the advantage, cleverly transferring Maul’s forward momentum from the bladelock into a backward roll and kicking him through the glass and out of the room.

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) 25ykqf

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) EGOBBp

Next, Ahsoka and Maul duel atop the scaffolding with no apparent advantage gained between either of them from 2:33 to 2:49. They resume dueling at 2:55, with Ahsoka throwing in an elbow jab and kick to the face, and Maul responding with a kick of his own (until 3:08). The last bout from 3:26 to 3:40 comes after Ahsoka kicks Maul from a beam as he attempts to escape, with Maul finally disarming Ahsoka of both weapons.

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) ZGfFnn

Takeaways:

It’s exceedingly clear that the two had a competitive duel. Ahsoka ended the first phase on her terms, and Maul never sustained any advantage until the very end when he disarmed Ahsoka of both sabers. Maul was also outhit in both phases; indeed, Ahsoka landed more (not insignificant) physical blows on Maul than the reverse, which is notable given the latter’s mastery of Teras Kasi and penchant for physical dominance.

"Discipline.

Discipline is all. It conquers pain. It conquers fear.

Most important of all, it conquers failure.

Discipline is what allowed Darth Maul to survive a thirty- meter fall into a pile of rubble and debris: the discipline of his teras kasi fighting skills, which gave him complete control over his body, allowing him to utilize midair acrobatics to direct his fall and so avoid striking ornamental projections, ledges, and other potentially lethal obstructions; the discipline of the dark side, which let him manipulate gravity itself, slowing his descent enough to hit the ground without becoming a lifeless bag of broken bones and ruptured organs, Even half stunned by the unexpected explosion of his speeder bike, Maul was able to aim his falling body in such a way as to survive. Discipline is what allowed Darth Maul to survive a thirty- meter fall into a pile of rubble and debris: the discipline of his teras kasi fighting skills, which gave him complete control over his body—
" — Star Wars: Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter

Ahsoka's capable of holding her ground and even outmaneuvering opponents that are vastly more experienced and thoroughly trained. Her duel with Maul didn’t come out of the blue, either: Ahsoka regularly adapted and survived against duelists such as General Grievous, Asajj Ventress, and Pre Vizsla during her formative years, with an improved performance in each proceeding duel. However, against Maul, the fruits of her labor showed in spades, preventing the Sith Lord from dictating the course of the battle through proactive offense.

The Attack on Coruscant




Point 1: Shaak Ti is locked into an extended duel with a lone MagnaGuard from 5:06 to 5:32 before Grievous downs the transport they’re fighting on.

Point 2: Shaak Ti is pursued by two MagnaGuards from 6:07 to 6:55, though only duels one for the majority of the selected time frame. Even though Ti manages to defeat the MagnaGuard (and the other with the Force), it takes her nearly fifty seconds and several intense bouts of bladework to accomplish this.

As demonstrated by points one and two, Shaak Ti had her hands full with one or two MagnaGuards for a large chunk of time, calling into question the degree of Ti’s superiority in a standard dueling capacity. That begs the question: why does she find her groove against dozens of MagnaGuards when she was seemingly unable to do that when faced with one or two?    

Well, it’s noted by Star Wars: The Complete Visual Dictionary that due to Ti’s Togruta biology, she is particularly adept at fighting in large crowds: “Shaak Ti fights at her best in group combat as she is biologically adapted for moving in dense crowds. She darts with ease through chaotic melees, where others struggle amidst the complexities of movements.” Contrary to the intimidating sight of countless MagnaGuards appearing from the shadows, numbers play to Ti's strengths.

In the proceeding fight, Ti is disarmed after twenty seconds of frantic defense (9:25 to 9:45). In the initial effort against the MagnaGuards, Ti only managed an acrobatic retreat, failing to take down a single droid before being surrounded, disarmed, and bashed with electrostaffs. While Ti’s resilience against the electrostaff strikes is an impressive feat of pain tolerance, she wouldn’t have survived had the guards been armed with cutting weapons like lightsabers, and her stalling would’ve been cut short then and there.

Furthermore, we only see Ti make headway against the MagnaGuards after using their own weapon against them. There is a clear shift in Ti’s combative effectiveness against the guards once this happens; Ti’s avoidance and defense shift into a full-blown offensive whereby she quickly dispatches numerous MagnaGuards. Why is this important? Because MagnaGuards are distinctly disadvantaged against unpredictable fighting styles:

Coupled with Dooku's coaching, their programming in the seven classic forms of lightsaber dueling - - in the Jedi arts - - made them lethal opponents. But they were not invincible, not even Grievous, because they could be confused by unpredictability, and they had no understanding of finesse. A player of dejarik could memorize all the classic openings and countermoves, and still not be a master of the game. Defeat often came at the hands of less experienced players who knew nothing about the traditional strategies. A professional fighter, a combat artist, could be defeated by a cantina brawler who knew nothing about form but everything about ending a conflict quickly, without a thought to winning gracefully or elegantly. Enslavement to form opened one to defeat by the unforeseen.” — Star Wars: Labyrinth of Evil

And Shaak Ti’s sudden tactical and combative shift by using an electrostaff + lightsaber combo evidently left the MagnaGuards scrambling. Even from a practical perspective, the change of weaponry isn’t insignificant: the electrostaff gave Ti greater reach and left her better suited for engaging with multiple foes.

In all, Ti goes on a MagnaGuard killing frenzy only after a particular set of favorable circumstances. Ti’s best feat has a large asterisk next to it.

Rebuttals


xolthol wrote:“Based on this we know that Maul is stronger that Ashoka (which is capping), we also know that she need to work at her best to compete with him (now this is hard capping, no possibility for my opponent to pretend at some hidden hinderance for her).”

Establishing an upper limit for Ahsoka is only relevant if you can prove that Shaak Ti operates at a similar level to Maul and that Ahsoka’s competitive performance against him is totally negated by circumstances. Unfortunately, Shaak Ti has nothing putting her on Maul’s level, and even if you establish factors that would've negatively affected Maul and/or boosted Ahsoka, you still have to quantify them as being substantial enough for Shaak Ti to get an 'in.' Right now, she doesn't have one.

xolthol wrote:“But the most important part is in the third point and the overconfidence of Maul. Indeed, the same overconfidence of Maul allow a young TPM Kenobi (which have been absolutely dominated by Maul) despite a rage amp (coming from the death of Qui Gon Jinn) to defeat the Zabrak. And because the circumstance of both defeats are really similar (both have been desarmed and Maul have clearly the advantage) it seems not so illogic to assume that Maul would have been in the same state of mind thus allowing Ashoka (like Obi-Wan before her) to defeat Maul.”

Overconfidence is an intrinsic part of Maul’s character, and thus should generally be a built-in assumption when evaluating his duels. Filoni's “time and again” quote also implies that there wasn’t anything particularly unique about Maul’s conduct relative to previous duels. If what you’re suggesting is that the circumstances at the end of Maul’s duel with Ahsoka elicited an overconfident response, that doesn’t reverse the preceding several minutes of combat in which Ahsoka fought on even terms, nor does it particularly prove anything in relation to Shaak Ti; like it or not, the fight ends with Ahsoka outfinessing a Teras Kasi master while unarmed, with little space to maneuver, and dangling on the wrong side of a beam.

xolthol wrote:As a result of all of this we have a proof that the victory of Ashoka over Maul isn't equivalent to a proof for the Togruta Jedi to be in the same league than Maul. Moreover we have a strong clue that she may be way below him and still win the fight.  

{1} : "He is the stronger swordfighter "
{2} : "I wanted it to take a lot for Ashoka to compete at his level"
{3} : "he is very overconfident." and "he undersestimated his opponent and he failed time and again to overcome this flaw"

Nothing Filoni said in the interview is detrimental to the argument that Ahsoka competed on Maul’s level because he directly states that she competed at his level. Like, right there. Heavy breathing also doesn't communicate anything new or important to us—Maul being a challenging opponent for Ahsoka is obvious independent of such things.

xolthol wrote:(2) There is absolutely no proof that TCW Maul is far above its TPM iteration
(3) TPM Maul is in the same league than Qui Gon Jinn
(4) Qui Gon Jinn is by all mean bellow Shaak Ti

There is a fundamental issue with your scaling chain. The only legitimate connective tissue that you’ve brought forward to establish Shaak Ti’s relation to Obi-Wan, Qui-Gon, or Maul, is her fight against the MagnaGuards. That fight neither proves Shaak Ti’s superiority over her Jedi peers nor does it serve as an effective foundation from which your other arguments are built. As such, I’m dismissing your chain until you can achieve step 1: validate Shaak Ti’s MagnaGuard fight. Without that, Shaak Ti is up the creek without a paddle.

xolthol wrote:We know that ROTS Obi-Wan cannot defeat 3 magnaguards together {1}. At the opposite Shaak-Ti was able to fight (a minimum of) 12 magna-guards (four time more than what Obi-Wan cannot defeat) for an extended period of time {2} and she was able to destroy (at the very least) 4 of them. From this precise depiction we have a clear superiority of Shaak Ti over ROTS Kenobi.

You provided the following quote to prove Kenobi’s inferiority to three MagnaGuards: “Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat,”—however, you neglected to provide the rest of the passage: “but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him." — Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

Focused in the Force, Kenobi destroyed them:

In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away. He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure. Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come . . . until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now. His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of shipsized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike. Two, three, and four. Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well.” — Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith

If you still want to press the point that Shaak Ti is ">>" Kenobi, the latter's duel with Grievous should disabuse you of that notion—unless you also want to argue that Shaak Ti is >> General Grievous... PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) 2960029119

In next week's (month's? year's?) episode...


In my next post, I will be exploring the multitude of reasons why Shaak Ti is incomparable to Darth Maul in addition to having nothing on her resume to believe she exceeds Ahsoka in any relevant combative category.

Simply put, Shaak Ti's best feat is ambiguous at best, and unimpressive at worst. By contrast, Ahsoka's best feat has her fighting competitively with Darth Maul over several minutes and throwing the Sith Lord off his game (and on his ass) through her own skill, strength, and power. The elder Togruta is outmatched.

Sorry for the delay, and I'm looking forward to your response, @xolthol.




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PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 2 - Xolthol (Master Ti) vs. King Joker (TCW S7 Ahsoka Tano)

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