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LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 7th 2022, 10:58 pm
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Rembo_10

W4nkdestroyer as Lord Maul as of The Clone Wars Season 7
GreySentinel as Master Kenobi as of Revenge of the Sith

Rules:

-3 posts per side
-no character limit
-2 weeks between posts
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 7th 2022, 11:00 pm
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 3344068304
Rem/w4nk
Rem/w4nk

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Revenge... I must have Revenge!

March 24th 2022, 8:23 pm

Preface

For this debate I will not be using any of the fights between Darth Maul and Obi-Wan Kenobi throughout TCW due to their irrelevance in my grander scheme.  And indeed, I do think this is beneficial for my opponent as well.  If he chooses to bring those fights up, he will merely be digging his own grave; something he does quite often.

Without further adieu, let us begin.

RotS Darth Maul + Ahsoka Tano > RotS Darth Sidious (pre-Order 66)


As of Revenge of the Sith, Darth Maul has 4 sources stating he and Ahsoka Tano can defeat Darth Sidious in a fight (NOTE: this is prior to Order 66):

Spoiler:

Now to elaborate on these sources, since I no doubt know my opponent will try to misconstrue my sources as he always does.

Regarding the first source, Filoni says that Maul and Ahsoka can eliminate Sidious.  The semantical definition of eliminate in general is: "to put an end to or get rid of" and when referring to a rival or political opponent: "murder" per Oxford Languages.  Now, the second definition is clear: they will murder Sidious, however the first can be wormed around if not properly substantiated.  To put it clearly: Maul and Ahsoka have no way of "[putting] an end to" or "[getting] rid of" Sidious without direct confrontation (which Witwer actually says in a later quote but I digress).  They have no control over the political affairs of the Republic.  Maul is a "renegade Sith Lord", and Ahsoka was accused of being a traitor to the Republic.  Even if Ahsoka could somehow convince the Jedi order that Chancellor Palpatine was a Dark Lord of the Sith, it wouldn't matter, because as Mace Windu put it: "He has control of the Senate and the courts, he's too dangerous to be left alive!"  Suffice to say that if the Jedi exhorted the Senate to impeach Chancellor Palpatine, that it would only hasten the events of Order 66, as the Jedi would be seen as traitors to the Republic for opposing the Chancellor in such a direct manner.  Thus, the only way Maul and Ahsoka can "put an end to or get rid of" Sidious, is through combat.

The second source is more of the same.  This one is easily the most opposable given its more abstract nature (stop can mean a lot of things).  But we do not evaluate sources purely in a vacuum.  This acts more as supplementary evidence to the other sources I've posted which essentially confirm that Maul and Ahsoka have to duke it out with Sidious.

The third source is probably the most indisputable quote I have on this topic.  Witwer says Maul and Ahsoka can take direct action against Sidious, comparing it to Mace Windu and the B-team confronting Sidious in his office.  I don't think there is any way to logically counter this, but I'm sure Grey will try to pervert this as well.

Finally, the fourth quote is again Witwer.  He says Maul is telling "100% of the truth", meaning that when Maul says they can stop Sidious, he is truly correct.  Given this is from the same interview as the former "direct action" quote, it stands to reason he is in context, saying Maul and Ahsoka can beat Sidious unlike Windu and the B-team; which he denotes as a "huge monkey wrench" being thrown in Sidious' plan.

Ultimately, there is no way one can champion the idea Maul+Ahsoka cannot defeat Sidious in a fight under a good faith methodology, but that has never stopped Grey in the past, and I doubt his estrogen/testosterone imbalance will cease now either.

The immense disparity between RotS Darth Maul and RotS Ahsoka Tano


So to kick things off, Maul during RotS is stated to be hindered by Almec in the episode itself:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11142/111427065/7827679-2864330349-78099.jpg

We saw what a couple days of dread did to Anakin on Mustafar, here Maul has been experiencing fear for weeks; amplifying his hindrance by magnitudes compared to Anakin's.

In fact, Witwer states this as well:

Spoiler:

So not only is Maul "terrible", he's also not trying to kill Ahsoka, which is evident in that Maul goes for and is successful in disarming Ahsoka throughout the fight.  Regarding the fight itself, while Ahsoka may have fought on (hindered) Maul's level according to Filoni, that doesn't mean they were equals or anything close.  Within the first 15 seconds of the fight Maul disarms Ahsoka of one of her sabers.  That does not happen to a peer.  I'm not going to dissect the entire fight, but it should be blatantly obvious that Maul is winning decisively with Ahsoka landing some hits here and there due to Maul's clumsiness/stupidity which won't happen under circumstances where Maul is fighting at his peak (I.E. this hypothetical versus battle).

We've established that even a vastly hindered Maul is Ahsoka's decent superior, and consequently is the main factor in defeating Sidious.  However, how does an unhindered, peak RotS Maul compare to Ahsoka Tano?  Well let's look at a common opponent Maul and Ahsoka have both fought and use him as a measuring stick.

Darth Maul vs General Grievous


Both Maul and Ahsoka have fought Grievous recently: Ahsoka in Season 5 of TCW, Maul in SoD.  Let's start with Maul:

Maul fought Grievous 3 times across SoD, once on Zanbar, once aboard Grievous' ship, and once on Dathomir.  Their first fight is relatively inconclusive, as Maul is forced to retreat prematurely do to his forces being decimated by the CIS.  In the skirmish they had, Maul was winning the initial bladelock against Grievous (evidenced by him leaning in towards the General), and that Grievous kicked Maul to break out of it.  However, it should be noted that Maul is stated to have had "little time" to regain his strength, meaning he was still hindered from his torture at the hands of Darth Tyranus and Darth Sidious.

The fight itself:

Maul's hindrance:

And we've seen how severely Sidious' lightning can affect Maul (albeit, a Maul fatigued from force rage):

https://youtu.be/-7hBZNsPnyg?t=279

So we have a sufficiently hindered Maul overpowering Grievous in a bladelock, who resorts to kicking Maul to break out, which evidently does no damage to Maul either given he's ready to jump back in and fight.

Just to tease, let's see how an unhindered Kenobi handles one of Grievous' kicks:

https://youtu.be/fD5ELmHInf0?t=159

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 2960029119

The next fight between Maul and Grievous, again, is a pretty short fight, though there is a victor.  Maul jumps Grievous on his command ship and physically overpowers him, almost breaking the transparisteel windows in the process.  Maul's victory here is proclaimed a "humiliating defeat for the cyborg".

The fight itself:

Humiliating defeat:

The last fight between Maul and Grievous takes place on Dathomir.  In this fight, Maul is stated to have "easily" drove Grievous away in their duel.  That's it, that's all that needs to be said really.  However there are some who question the validity of the quote only referring to their duel, which I will address.  Here is the quote itself:

Spoiler:

The reason that the quote cannot be referring to Maul force pushing Grievous through the hole in the wall is because Maul is stated to be driving Grievous back while Talzin possessed Dooku and fought Sidious.  By the time Maul force pushed Grievous, Talzin was purged from Dooku's body.  As a matter of fact, it is what allowed Maul to force push Grievous in the first place.

Here is the chronological order of the fight:

SoD #4 pages 13-17:

Grammatically, there is no way for the quote to be referring to Maul's force push: it has to be referring to the duel off-panel.

Another issue some people have with this is that the fight takes place on Dathomir, which has been long thought of as a dark-side nexus.  That is incorrect.  Many sources (including fact files) actually support the idea that Dathomir only amps users of magic, which Maul is not:

Dathomir Amp:

Talzin herself even says that she is not a natural force user like the Jedi or Sith, insinuating Dathomir has no effect on them:

Spoiler:

Which truth be told should be correct, given in SoD she only wants to face Sidious on Dathomir, insinuating she would have some advantage over him there.

To conclude, Maul has shown superiority to Grievous in all of their fights across SoD, even when suffering from unfavorable circumstances.  At his peak, he is capable of "easily" defeating Grievous, signifying a large gap between the two.  Let's now see how Ahsoka compares to Grievous and by virtue, Maul.

Ahsoka Tano vs General Grievous


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK5vWgib5Fk

I don't think I need to say much here.  Grievous is clearly dominating Ahsoka throughout the entire fight, forcing her back at every turn.  Ahsoka is only able to keep Grievous at bay once, and that's through abusing telekinesis (something Kenobi does as well since he can't outduel Grievous like Maul  PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 2864379292).  But Grievous recovers swiftly, and tombstone piledrives her with his foot.  When comparing this to Maul's performance, it's really no contest: Maul "easily" beats/drives back Grievous, who in turn easily drives back Ahsoka.  Maul>>>Grievous>>>Ahsoka.

Regarding Ahsoka growth: there is a very low probability that Ahsoka experienced massie growth from this fight all the way until RotS given she spent the time after this running away from the Jedi Order, and just doing nothing.  Even if her Force powers increased due to spiritual growth, her combat skill certainly would have atrophied.  Now Maul obviously didn't experience much growth either, given his weeks of dread post-SoD and whatnot, but he doesn't need any growth, he's already far above Grievous, who is in turn far above Ahsoka.

(Author's note: While not Legends, Rebels is a good indicator of how far apart Ahsoka and Maul are supposed to be as of S7, since Rebels Maul is stated to be post-prime yet is superior to Rebels Ahsoka, who has had many years to grow from her TCW/RotS incarnation.)

Darth Maul's parity with Darth Sidious


We've assessed the massive gap between Maul and Ahsoka, and it truly is massive.  Maul is capable of stomping a fighter who can stomp Ahsoka.  Ergo, that can only mean one thing: Maul is by far, the most important and strongest member of the duo, and will be doing all the heavy lifting against Sidious while Ahsoka runs interference.  Kind of like the DT Muur + Vader > Sidious situation.  And indeed, we've already seen Maul hold his own against Sidious on Mandalore, better than anyone in TCW besides Yoda (including Dooku-stomping Skywalker in S6).  He also wasn't afraid of facing Sidious on Dathomir, when trying to buy more time for Talzin to drain Dooku.  You would think he would know to be afraid if he was utterly stomped on Mandalore and tortured for weeks by Sidious, feel like that's telling of the gap between them.

I'd also like to point out how RotS Maul is essentially confirmed to be above Office Windu, somebody who per Lucas can compete with Sidious, and beat him pre-O66.  If Maul and Ahsoka are > pre-O66 Sidious, whereas Windu and the B-team are < pre-O66 Sidious, it can be logically concluded that Maul is > Windu, unless somebody wants to make the assertion that Ahsoka is instead > B-team. PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 1076326320

RotS Maul is superior to a dude who can outduel pre-O66 Sidious, though is overall inferior.  This is all pre-O66, post-O66 Maul gains even more power in comparison to Sidious due to his Sidious+++ potential.  Now of course, trying to pinpoint post-O66 Maul's exact level in relation to Sidious is, for the majority speculation.  We have only two tangible feats for post-O66 Maul: ragdolling Ahsoka and destroying the 4 hyperdrives of a venator; the best environmental TK feat in TCW.  I could make a point about how Maul's feat here far outclasses RotS Yoda's feat in the RotS videogame, but I don't want to be disingenuous.  My main argument is just that post-O66, Maul has grown, and more than Sidious, meaning the already small gap between them prior to O-66 has become smaller.

In the end, I think a RotS Maul ~ RotS Sidious take is by far the most likely take.  The same cannot be said for Kenobi, however.

Where Kenobi falls short


Spoiler:

It's made quite clear many times that Kenobi is no match for Sidious.  Yoda directly says it, Lucas says only Yoda and Windu can compete with Sidious, and Gillard says the difference between a tier 8 and 9 is "enormous" while putting Kenobi in tier 8 and Sidious in tier 9.  Compare that to Maul, who we've established to be a nigh-equal of RotS Sidious, and I think the victor here is rather obvious unless Kenobi has a PIS moment (unironically would be Grey's best chance at a valid argument).

The fight ends like this:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_super/11113/111137054/4253755-forcechokeobi-wan.jpg

Or this:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-25-2022/tS2fTk.gif
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 24th 2022, 8:44 pm
Due to overtime, Rembeezy will have only ten days to respond to Grey once Grey makes his response.
hellothere5432
hellothere5432

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 24th 2022, 10:58 pm
Good post PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 3344068304
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level Two
Level Two

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 26th 2022, 5:38 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
This opener was written on 17/3/22

A series of Mauled comparisons


Based on my opponents ranting on SI I'm writing this opener in advance. So let's clear a few things up

Maul&Ahsoka A W4nk'ing story


Based on his companions regular misquoting of this source on discord I am assuming he has done so also above

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Screen20

This misquote obscures a rather relevant word that changes its effect. 

To really break down how this Maul and Ahsoka quote works for Maul we have to look at how Filoni and his teacher have addressed 2v1s in past. As they are in sync on most things

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Unknown

A rather important point here that individually each person on the team is oneshot fodder. Yet together they have a chance. 

Of further note is Ventress being noted as a threat to Sidious. Yet far superior fighters to her being regularly fodderized by the dark lord. 

All of Mauls quotes involving Sids have a common component, Ahsokas unconditional presence. He is not capable of competing with the Dark Lord on his own. As was plainly demonstrated in the series and it's related material

Spoiler:

and emphasized by Filoni himself. 

Filoni: Yeah, I think that’s pretty literal at that point. I think that what you understand about Maul is that he is still not nearly as powerful as Sidious.



https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02/05/star-wars-the-clone-wars-dave-filoni-talks-about-the-death-watchdarth-maul-arc-and-the-casualties-along-the-way?page=2

At His Wits'wers End



While Sam does at times converse with Filoni. He has no authority himself and does not always reflect the views of the director. As an example

Sam loves his characters and does cope when they take the Ls. So frankly, I'm not interested unless Filoni is in the room, nor does Witwer carry weight without that. Especially when Filonis own thoughts on the fight are clear

No hinderance on Maul is mentioned. Even when there is ample reason to do so if it exists. Instead Filoni blatantly says Ahsoka can compete on his level. And does so for a long period, landing several blows. Finally

Ahsoka blatantly ragdolls Maul. Which he cannot break out of for a protracted period. And has to beg her to let him go. 

To summarize this section

Ahsoka is Mauls near-equal and can compete on his level as per Filoni.

Any and all comparisons to Sidious with Maul have Ahsoka as a prerequisite and such proposals of 2v1s have been postulated to succeed despite the individuals making it up to be handwave-able fodder individually. 

More or less. Maul himself in no way scales to Sidious through this argumentation. 

Moving on


The One Maul is Lucky to Not Have Shown Up. 


Anakin Skywalkers record speaks for himself. So we'll just make this simple

Anakin’s style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he’s unbeatable. He’s far more dangerous than anybody in the universe.
- Nick Gillard

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) IMG_6198


Anakins already unparalleled power was further enhanced by his fall

Spoiler:

Note these directly address the MF duel. To sum things up

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Giphy-downsized-large

Kenobi is able to match the "unparalleled" and "unbeatable" Anakin who has been "bestowed newfound power that added to his formidable abilities", blatantly. In speed, strength and TK. Kenobi's familiarity does nothing to dampen this. As Skywalker benefits from it in reverse as noted by Gillard and if this were the case it would place great emphasis on any physical or power gap. Yet there is not. This is even stated to be the intent of the scene by the choreographer. That the two are "almost equals"

Likewise there is zero hinderance Skywalker power, nor is his ability to draw on it hindered. As Skywalker is blatantly stated to be tapping into the force more than ever before

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Anakin_and_Obi-Wan_tap_into_the_Force_as_they_never_have_before

Even Gillard noting Anakin's power is not hindered


He took Force LSD. That's what made him a 9. That's dangerous because he hasn't done it the right way. But it's still a nine. It's still something you have to deal with.

Credit:


And other sources echoing this
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 8125140-mfvfullpowercloseup

My opponents own comparison has torpedoed Mauls chances in this matchup. As all of the zabraks hopes of maybe eliminating Sidious are dependent on him being helped by a partner of near equal power. Meanwhile, Kenobi flat matched the person who can kill Sidious


"You have to be either Mace or Yoda to compete with the Emperor," Lucas says. "If Anakin hadn't got all beat up, he could've beat the Emperor."

George Lucas: The Making Of Revenge Of The Sith

This is only one of several lines that lead to this conclusion. But this one is definitive on its own. Kenobi's ability to compete with Sidious himself in a vacuum is irrelevant as he is a different fighter with a different style and moveset. Especially when he has faced someone whom every authority places on an even playing field or blatantly above overall. 

As the Clone Wars rage on, Anakin Skywalker becomes seduced by the dark side and betrays his fellow Jedi and all that he once held dear. Obi-Wan Kenobi must now battle his former Padawan, who has become the Jedi’s most formidable threat.

- RotS Photo Archive

And does nothing to assist Maul when he lacks any positive comparisons to Sheev at all that don't rely on outside help. 

Kenobi wins. Easily at that.
Rem/w4nk
Rem/w4nk

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

March 26th 2022, 2:12 pm
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 815462187 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 815462187 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 815462187 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 3363707401 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 1220391476
Rem/w4nk
Rem/w4nk

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Self-evident rebuttals

April 4th 2022, 11:23 pm
This misquote obscures a rather relevant word that changes its effect.

I honestly was not aware there was a "maybe", I never viewed the source personally as I trusted the word of a comrade.  Regardless, that changes zilch.  The context of the quote is that Filoni is speaking from Ahsoka's PoV.  Obviously she is not 100% certain they can beat Sidious, or that Maul is even telling the truth in the first place.  That has no bearing on the objective outcome, which we know results in them beating Sidious.

A rather important point here that individually each person on the team is oneshot fodder. Yet together they have a chance.

This is of course, disregarding the uber circumstances of the Luke/Vader/Sheev dynamic during the OT.  Why don't we look at 1vX examples directly from the PT, which we know is viewed quite differently from the OT in Lucas' eyes, where the single opponent is vastly superior to the team he/she is facing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3DHDXAzoBA

Here we have 3 fighters (Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar) who are all evidently one-shot fodder to Sidious.  They obviously have zero chance of beating him without Windu, as they were still fodderized even while the latter was present.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlRJLcy8NsA&t=133s

It's stated that Dooku can one-shot any Jedi lesser than Yoda with his Telekinesis or Lightning:

Spoiler:

Meaning he can one-shot the likes of Kenobi and Skywalker.  And while we never saw the two of them take on Dooku as a team, multiple sources claim that they would be no match for him regardless:

Spoiler:

Your proposition that two fighters can challenge an opponent who has the ability to one-shot them is almost unanimously rejected in the Star Wars mythos bar a few match-ups where extreme circumstances allow the vastly inferior duo to prevail.

Of further note is Ventress being noted as a threat to Sidious. Yet far superior fighters to her being regularly fodderized by the dark lord.

False equivalence. Ventress is a threat to Sidious because she is growing in power, and much faster than he anticipated; she also has a master who when fighting in tandem with can potentially beat Sidious per a TCW magazine quote.  

Well actually, I do recall Filoni himself laughing at the notion that Dooku and Ventress can beat Sidious when that source was brought up by a fan.  Maul and Ahsoka on the other hand, are stated to be direct threats to Sidious as of RotS with the ability to beat him when fighting together.  Really makes you wonder how big the difference is between Maul+Ahsoka and Dooku+Ventress, and of course, we already know Ahsoka loses to Ventress let alone Dooku, so that just leaves us with Maul PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 2266747095.

All of Mauls quotes involving Sids have a common component, Ahsokas unconditional presence. He is not capable of competing with the Dark Lord on his own. As was plainly demonstrated in the series and it's related material

I don't see why Maul's previous encounter with Palpatine is binding and/or indicates how a fight during RotS would go, given the two events are separated by almost a year chronologically, and your own belief that force users can go through massive spurts of growth in a short amount of time.  Anyhow, let's get to it.

You have 4 sources stating Sidious easily beat Maul (your first quote only says Sidious held an advantage throughout the fight which doesn't entail vast superiority).  I have 6 sources + the episode & novel + Filoni which all state/imply the opposite:

Sourcebooks:

Sidious sensing a "disturbance":

The Lawless & Shadow Conspiracy:

Filoni's comments:

So yeah, canonically you lose this every time.

While Sam does at times converse with Filoni. He has no authority himself and does not always reflect the views of the director. As an example

Sam loves his characters and does cope when they take the Ls. So frankly, I'm not interested unless Filoni is in the room, nor does Witwer carry weight without that. Especially when Filonis own thoughts on the fight are clear

By the same token we should disregard Filoni's thoughts on Ahsoka, since she's pretty much his fanfiction character and has no reason to exist in Star Wars.

Anyways, it seems you missed a crucial part of my quote:

Spoiler:
Witwer explicitly states he talked about this with Filoni.  There goes your counter  PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 1076326320

No hinderance on Maul is mentioned.

Except for of course, the above quote, and Almec in the episode saying Maul has been consumed by dread for the past couple of weeks:

Spoiler:

No hindrance at all!  PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 2257779481

Even when there is ample reason to do so if it exists. Instead Filoni blatantly says Ahsoka can compete on his level. And does so for a long period, landing several blows.  

Filoni's not wrong, she does compete on this hindered Maul's level.  Though she is only able to compete by giving it her absolute all, whereas Maul is relatively fine stamina-wise.

Finally Ahsoka blatantly ragdolls Maul. Which he cannot break out of for a protracted period . And has to beg her to let him go.

Again, she can ragdoll a hindered Maul. This has no bearing on an unhindered Maul, who later ragdolls Ahsoka on the Venator:

Unhindered Maul:

I also assume you will apply this same logic to Maul ragdolling Sidious correct?  Sidious cannot break out of Maul's force grip, therefore they are equals.  I couldn't imagine you would be so hypocritical to not acknowledge the resemblence between the two feats. PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 39523600 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 3344068304

Kenobi is able to match the "unparalleled" and "unbeatable" Anakin who has been "bestowed newfound power that added to his formidable abilities", blatantly. In speed, strength and TK. Kenobi's familiarity does nothing to dampen this. As Skywalker benefits from it in reverse as noted by Gillard and if this were the case it would place great emphasis on any physical or power gap. Yet there is not. This is even stated to be the intent of the scene by the choreographer . That the two are "almost equals"

Huh.  I wonder how Kenobi is able to match Anakin, who is "unparalleled" and "unbeatable" among even the tier 9s and is directly stated to be enormously above Kenobi:

Spoiler:

It's almost as if Kenobi has numerous advantages over Anakin which is repeatedly stated:

Kenobi's advantages:

Now not only does Kenobi have advantages over Anakin that are not reciprocated, but Anakin is actually stated to be conflicted during his fight with Kenobi:

Anakin's hindrances:

Likewise there is zero hinderance Skywalker power, nor is his ability to draw on it hindered. As Skywalker is blatantly stated to be tapping into the force more than ever before

That doesn't exactly preclude Anakin from being hindered.  Anakin on Mustafar is tapping into his Force power more than ever, that much is true.  However the amount of power Anakin can manifest is actually lower than his peak due to his mental hindrances.  For example, let's say KFV's cap is RotJ Sidious (hypothetical) and MFV is capped at RotS Sidious.  MFV using all of his power is RotS Sidious level, whereas KFV can be using only a portion of his power and surpass RotS Sidious quite significantly.  It can be applied other ways too, such as Anakin's max power on Mustafar being RotS Sidious level, but he is unable to reach that level due to mental hindrances (despite tapping into his power more than ever before).  Indeed I do think the latter is the most likely case, given every single comparison between the tier 8s and tier 9s has the 9s far above the 8s, and peak Anakin is repeatedly stated to be RotS Palpatine's equal in power:

Spoiler:

Even Gillard noting Anakin's power is not hindered

This doesn't remotely imply Anakin isn't hindered.

And other sources echoing this

Again, Anakin fighting to the "fullness" of his ability does not preclude his maximum power output from being limited by his mental hindrances.

This is only one of several lines that lead to this conclusion. But this one is definitive on its own. Kenobi's ability to compete with Sidious himself in a vacuum is irrelevant as he is a different fighter with a different style and moveset. Especially when he has faced someone whom every authority places on an even playing field or blatantly above overall.

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 815462187 PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 815462187

Maul shreds.
HeartoftheForce
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PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Stop hitting yourself Rem

April 19th 2022, 12:12 am
Oh boy. Another Maul fan to beat down
    
Seriously they've been spouting this for nearly a decade how are all of these points still around?

honestly was not aware there was a "maybe", I never viewed the source personally

To the surprise of no one
 
Here we have 3 fighters (Kit Fisto, Saesee Tiin, and Agen Kolar) who are all evidently one-shot fodder to Sidious.  They obviously have zero chance of beating him without Windu, as they were still fodderized even while the latter was present.

All this means is that the gap between RotS Sids and the B-Team is larger than the one between himself Luke and Vader. Nevermind the other sources stating the Jedi were surprised by Sids strength and the theoretical presence of a confusion haze. Not a 1-1 comparison at all. Let alone a contradiction
           
Meaning he can one-shot the likes of Kenobi and Skywalker.  And while we never saw the two of them take on Dooku as a team, multiple sources claim that they would be no match for him regardless

Setting aside that the sources are obviously referring to them fighting individually with both present. Dooku has no incentive to oneshot Kenobi and openly toys with him. Ditto with Skywalker. Likewise FoB Anakin is stated to be Yoda level. Taking him out of Dooku’s oneshot range. And even if we granted all of this all it would just mean is that the gap between Dooku and the duo is larger than the one between Luke & Vader and Palps. So again, not a contradiction nor refutation.
       
Ventress is a threat to Sidious because she is growing in power, and much faster than he anticipated

Note the standard I’ve made Rem apply here compared to some of his statements later.
           
Well actually, I do recall Filoni himself laughing at the notion that Dooku and Ventress can beat Sidious when that source was brought up by a fan.

And you chose to confirm it’s existence by not showing it much like you didn't post the actual clip of Filoni's quote. Lol.
           
I don't see why Maul's previous encounter with Palpatine is binding and/or indicates how a fight during RotS would go, given the two events are separated by almost a year chronologically

At most 6 months. Which there is next to zero evidence he made substantive gains during

And now the “let me dig up my Erkan debunks from nearly a decade ago because Maul fans haven’t gotten anything new” section.
           
Sourcebooks

1. First quote hurts your case more than helps. The moment of advantage is this one right here

Maul and Savage didn’t waste time seeking an advantageous position. They simply charged, blades shimmering, trying to overpower Sidious with the animal ferocity of their attack. Sidious caught their sabers on his, the weapons howling and crackling where they touched. Maul saw that Savage was startled by the seemingly frail man’s enormous strength. Maul stared at his Master’s face. He saw the strain as Sidious called upon the Force to keep the brothers at bay. But there was something else there, too—a terrible pleasure. Sidious began to grin.

Source: Darth Maul - Shadow Conspiracy

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Giphy


Which lasts about a second. The quote later states that Maul is no match for him. Combined with Filonis words and the fact that Sids was “Barely tested” and this harms your case more than helps.
2. Second is irrelevant
3. Epic means nothing in terms to the degree of difficulty or strength applied in the fight. Merely its scale. This is not a refutation or contradiction.
4. Fourth ties into another point later with another out of context Filoni quote I have to correct. But rivals doesn’t mean near equals or such. Rather two individuals moving towards the same goal.
       
Sids sensing shit

First 4 quotes refer to the Shadow Collective. Not Maul personally.
        
Indeed Filoni also believes this to be the case, and even calls the fight "legitimate":

This quote in context confirms my dismissal above about the quotes being in relation to the Shadow Collective and not Mauls power. 

Filoni: I think Palpatine, for his position, mainly looks at Maul and goes, “Huh, well that wasn’t supposed to go down that way.” He’s not supposed to be around at this point, but it can work to his advantage. It’s helping to confuse the Jedi further, and he knows Maul will spread a little chaos. The only thing that would concern Sidious is how powerful this guy gets. If Maul gets to a point where he’s getting a little too strong, if he’s causing too many problems -- which, let’s face it, capturing Obi-Wan Kenobi and possibly killing him would be a big problem for Palpatine, because he needs to manipulate that end with Anakin as long as he can -- he’s got to intervene and put the guy in his place, which is what a Sith Lord does. That arc, again, was so challenging because you almost feel like the events that take place could have taken several months, and that’s one of the ways to look at it. I don’t think Maul’s rallying these people in a couple days. I think you’re looking at a pretty long term plan that was going on to establish his criminal empire, so that he’s threatening enough to Sidious that Sidious is like, “Okay, I’m gonna go beat these guys down now.”

https://www.ign.com/articles/2013/03/07/star-wars-the-clone-wars-supervising-director-dave-filonis-season-5-wrap-up-discussion?page=3

Something that Filoni reinforces here

As that is the only thing Filoni refers to being relevant to Sidious. That along with specifically capturing Kenobi and how that ties to Skywalker. This section harms your case more than helps. Which people might notice is a trend here. 
           
Lawless and SC

1. I don’t care about your subjective interpretations of the episode when we have the director stating Sids was fine and having fun.
2. Sids oneshots Savage and handwaves the brothers in the same animatic.
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 8201735-4237080046-giphy

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 8201729-9196851943-giphy
3.      Sids laughs off Maul multiple times in said animatic. 
4.      All of this is compounded by the fact that Sids was “barely tested” by the brothers at all. Which none of your sources debunk or even contradict. So good for you the brothers made a massively holding back Sids try a tiny unquantifiable amount harder even if all of this works for you. 

None of the SC quotes are relevant. They’re all from Mauls PoV or his theories, the same novel has Sids speedblitzing him at the end and the only meaningful interpretation of one of them is based on an assumption.
           
While Filoni does sometimes hype up Sidious and make it seem like the fight was easy for him

It’s almost like it was
    
Obviously Anakin is not far more dangerous than Yoda or Sidious.

He really is. Even if Anakins base powers are Sids level or slightly above his massive potential and learning abilities make much more dangerous. 
           
Nothing Filoni says here indicates Sidious was toying or had an easy time with the duo.

Yes. He does. Right here
           
I really thought this is our chance to show everyone why Sidious is the Sith Lord. Why no one can compete with this guy.

At the end of the day, with Sidious, nobody was really going to be able to touch him.

And you could see at a certain point, he just puts his lightsabers away at the end of the fight and says, “I’m done with this,” and goes in and mauls Maul, so to speak.

https://www.starwars.com/news/interview-dave-filoni-on-star-wars-the-clone-wars-season-five-part-2

Last line is telling because it reinforces that Filoni was having Sids toy. Because the moment he’s “done” with the charade he can just drop the sabers and ragdoll. These lines reinforce that every time he’s touched or competed with, he’s toying.
           
By this logic, Sidious was toying with Yoda as well, since he was laughing throughout the entire fight bar specific moments when he was pressed, which also happened in the Mandalore fight by the way; refer to the images I posted above.

Difference being Sids has no statements of this nature for his duel with Yoda.
           
On the other hand, Filoni compares Savage's performance against Sidious to that of the B-team, who we know Sidious was not toying with

Savage putting up a better visual performance doesn’t put him above the B-Team lol. Finally, in the animatics that you love so much as shown above, Savage does get pretty much get one hit like Fisto.
           
By the same token we should disregard Filoni's thoughts on Ahsoka

No because Filoni is the director and writer you twat. 
           
Anyways, it seems you missed a crucial part of my quote:

PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 1076326320

Wow. Sam talking to Dave about this doesn’t mean they agreed or that what Sam is saying now is congruent with what Dave thinks. This is no different than Hayden Blackman talking to Lucas about how badass he thinks Vader is. Anyway, member Dave? Good ol Dave……….. who debunks Sams cope directly?

Q: He’s taken on bringing together criminal organizations and has a power base. But what is in his head when he asks Ahsoka to go with him to confront Sidious?

Filoni: He’s a person obsessed with power and the only way that he feels secure is to amass more power. He’ll make whatever alliance he needs to [in order] to benefit himself. Remember, fundamentally the dark side is always about the self and doing things to satisfy oneself, to control, to manipulate, to have greater power. Victory is seen only through strength. They conquer their fear by oppressing others. And so Maul plays both sides of the coin because he learned well from Sidious, which is, ‘I’m going to tell you certain things that are true, but at the end of the day, I’m going to get what I want because you’re going to be afraid of what I tell you is the truth.’ And that’s what he’s hoping, that she’ll align with him for the goal of taking out Sidious. I believe that he would work with her to do that, but she can’t trust him at all for what the outcome of that would be—as she well knows.

- https://nerdist.com/article/star-wars-clone-wars-final-season-dave-filoni-interview/

Sams saying Maul is “fighting to save the galaxy” is maximum cope on par with what you’ve displayed in this thread. From Daves mouth, Maul is trying to amass power and save his own ass. Witwers word is overridden outright by Filoni. I see no reason to recognize him on this topic and you have provided none. Meanwhile I have several instances of the two running counter to each on this subject. 
 
Except for of course, the above quote, and Almec in the episode saying Maul has been consumed by dread for the past couple of weeks:

I don’t care how Maul felt in the weeks leading up to the Ep. I care about his state in the fight, during which said dread (which is not a hinderance) is not present.
           
Again, she can ragdoll a hindered Maul.

Not hindered

Maul, who later ragdolls Ahsoka on the Venator

He force pushes her. Different scenario completely. Also by your own logic a clash between these two would be a “real battle” as stated in the quote. Which by the standards you apply to that kind of wording above would be indicative of comparability no? Also Witwer, irrelevant. 
           
I also assume you will apply this same logic to Maul ragdolling Sidious correct?  Sidious cannot break out of Maul's force grip, therefore they are equals.

Sids doesn’t try to nor need to. He just laughs it off. Meanwhile Maul desperately wants to fall and die....... but can't break Ahsokas grip. Different scenario and mentalities entirely.

 I wonder how Kenobi is able to match Anakin, who is "unparalleled" and "unbeatable" among even the tier 9s and is directly stated to be enormously above Kenobi:

Same Gillard states they’re almost equal and even Hayden states they made it a point that there should be no significant difference between them. Keeeeeeeeep coping. 
          
Kenobi’s “”””””””advantages“”””””””

1.      Refers to hill jump. No hinderance to power mentioned
2.      Refers to Anakins arrogance and hill jump. No hinderance to power mentioned
3.      Kenobi knowing how will rage doesn’t change the fact he is raging. Nor that he has to respond to it.
4.      Guess Maul won’t have any mistakes to take advantage of then. Also hill jump specifically, doesn’t effect the rest of the fight
5.      Hill jump
6.      Hardly relevant as several fodder move “faster than thought” likewise in the same medium someone like GG is able to move faster than Obi-Wan               can think yet he still shreds him. 

None of this also addresses that even if Kenobi’s recognition of the attack is instinctive, he still has to move fast enough to get there and tank the hit. Which wouldn’t be possible with the massive power gap. Especially since Anakin enjoys this advantage as well. In fact lets get a direct comparison concerning instinctive guards

The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground.

- RotS Novel

Even Dooku is able to instinctively guard Anakins attacks. But since he can't match his strength and speed he gets bullied anyway. Obi-Wan does not, because he can his strength and speed. 

Remaining quotes support my point
   
Anakins ”””””””hinderances””””””””

1. What a hilarious concession. Okay since you want to talk about the "dragon" lets see what happened to it during the fight itself….. you know, the part that matters

"Padme? Are you here? Are you all right?
"I'm  very  sorry,  Lord  Vader.  I'm  afraid  she  died.  It  seems  in  your  anger, you killed her."
This burns hotter than the lava had.
"No... no, it is not possible!"
You loved her. You will always love her. You could never will her death. Never. But you remember...You remember all of it. You remember the dragon that you brought Vader forth from your  heart  to  slay.  You  remember  the  cold  venom  in  Vader's  blood.  You remember the furnace of Vader's fury, and the black hatred of seizing her throat to silence her lying mouth

And  there  is  one  blazing  moment  in  which  you  finally  under-stand  that  there  was  no  dragon.  That  there  was  no  Vader.  That  
there was only you. Only Anakin Skywalker.


- RotS Novel

Well darn the dragon was dead during the MF duel. He brought his rage or “Vader” forth to kill it. Now what happened the last time this occurred?
 
Dragon  tries  its  best  to  freeze  away  his  strength,  to  whisper  him  that  Dooku  has  beaten  him  before,  that  Dooku  has  all  the  power  of  the  darkness,  to  remind  him  how  Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself  seemingly  without  effort  and  now  Anakin  is  all  alone  and  he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—But  Palpatine's  words  rage  is  your  weapon  have  given  Anakin  permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

- RotS Novel

Oh yeah, Zonakin. But maybe that was a two off it definitely didn't happen agai-
 
He instead turned his gaze  inward:  he  unlocked  the  furnace  gate  within  his  heart  and  stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life. I am Darth Vader, he said within himself. The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith  Lord  laid  his  other  hand  upon  it  and  broke  its  power  with  a  single effortless twist. I  am  Darth  Vader,  he  repeated  as  he  ground  the  dragon's  corpse  to  dust  beneath  his  mental  heel,  as  he  watched  the dragon's  dust  and  ashes  scatter  before  the  blast  from  his  furnace  heart, and youYou are nothing at all. He had become, finally, what they all called him. 


The Hero With No Fear.

- RotS Novel
 
Oh yeah. KFV. In other words, thankyou for proving my point about MFV being at or above the level of those iterations and debunking Anakin being hindered. As the prose makes his mental state undeniably identical. 

Anyway as for the rest
 
2. Once more, I don’t care what Anakin did on balcony. I care about the actual duel. During which his state is completely different
PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 8457184-anakinnoremorse
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PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) 8457219-7fe1016f-f44f-4db8-8331-0cc086704c74
3.      Same as above
4.      Referring to the movie as a whole
5.      Sids opinion and refers to Anakins lack of control over his anger leading to arrogance. Not some magical head canon nerf
6.      Same as 2.
7.      This refers to Jedi specifically as their power comes from clarity of emotion and peace of mind. The hinderance is due to the conflict. Anakin has no conflict during the MF duel, Vader has killed it and he is utterly consumed by rage with Anakin never to be reawakened until Luke.

You have nothing.

Anakin on Mustafar is tapping into his Force power more than ever, that much is true.  However the amount of power Anakin can manifest is actually lower than his peak due to his mental hindrances.  For example, let's say KFV's cap is RotJ Sidious (hypothetical) and MFV is capped at RotS Sidious.  MFV using all of his power is RotS Sidious level, whereas KFV can be using only a portion of his power and surpass RotS Sidious quite significantly.  It can be applied other ways too, such as Anakin's max power on Mustafar being RotS Sidious level, but he is unable to reach that level due to mental hindrances (despite tapping into his power more than ever before).

Completely hypothetical and debunked by the above
 
This doesn't remotely imply Anakin isn't hindered.

Correct. It explicitly states he isn’t hindered
 
Again, Anakin fighting to the "fullness" of his ability does not preclude his maximum power output from being limited by his mental hindrances.

If he’s being mentally hindered, then it wouldn’t be his fullest lol.
 
My opponent has nothing. Every single one of his points is a contradiction or falls flat on examination. While mine stand untouched and even reinforced by his own sources which he failed to vet or fully check. Kenobi is massively more powerful, skilled and is stated to not make mistakes while Mauls arrogant ass making them is a defining trait.

Maul dies.
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PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

April 19th 2022, 5:34 am
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PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi) Empty Re: PT TOURNAMENT BRACKET 1: Rembeezy/w4nk (TCW S7 Maul) vs. GreySentinel (Master Kenobi)

April 25th 2022, 1:22 pm
I can't believe this debate is still going on. Will get to silver jubilee at this rate and it still won't be resolved.
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