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EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Empty SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77)

July 14th 2021, 7:50 pm
SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Dcvsec10

MARA JADE SKYWALKER
(Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice)
vs.
DARTH WYYRLOK III
(Star Wars: Legacy--War)

There will be 3 posts per side - of 10K characters each - and a maximum of 10 days in which to release a post.

The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:

- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
- Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
[hideedit]


Last edited by EmperorCaedus on July 19th 2021, 6:21 pm; edited 1 time in total
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Empty Re: SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77)

July 18th 2021, 12:26 am
SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Mara_j10

I'm a fighter. I've always been a fighter. The few times I've been at leisure I've been miserable. I want challenges. I crave them. As long as I'm fighting, I'm not dying.

I. Joruus C'baoth

To kick off this debate we'll start with Joruus C'baoth. Here he's able to TK rocks in front of blaster bolts after they were fired.

Star Wars: Heir to The Empire wrote:With a crackle of splintering wood, the crossbow bolt shattered, the pieces dropping to the ground. Slowly, reluctantly, the guard lowered his crossbow, his eyes still burning with a now impotent rage. Thrawn let him stand there another second like that, then gestured to Rukh. The Noghri raised his blaster and fired—

And in a blur of motion almost too fast to see, a flat stone detached itself from the ground and hurled itself directly into the path of the shot, shattering spectacularly as the blast hit it.

Thrawn spun to face C’baoth, his face a mirror of surprise and anger. “C’baoth—!”

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:Solo had a different sort of lesson in mind. He reached the end of the walkway, sighted along the barrel of his blaster, and fired.

But even wallowing in self-delusion, a Jedi of C'baoth's power couldn't be taken out that easily. In a blur of motion, Mara's blaster leaped upward from the floor into the path of the shot, its grip shattering into a shower of sparks as Solo's shot expended its energy there. The second shot was likewise blocked; the third caught the blaster's power pack, turning the weapon into a spectacular fireball. The blaster was torn from Solo's grip before he could fire a fourth.

Let's see how Mara handles C'baoth with his speed established.

Star Wars: Dark Force Rising wrote:There was a snap-hiss from beside her, and suddenly the terrain was bathed in the green-white glow of Skywalker's lightsaber. "Get behind the ship," he ordered her. "I'll hold him off."

The memory of Myrkr flashed through Mara's mind; but even as she opened her mouth to remind him of how useless he was without the Force, he took a long step forward to put himself outside the ysalamir's influence. The lightsaber flashed sideways, and she heard the double crunch as its silent blade intercepted two more incoming rocks.

Still laughing, C'baoth raised his hand and sent a flash of blue lightning toward them.

Skywalker caught the bolt on his lightsaber, and for an instant the green of the blade was surrounded by a blue-white coronal discharge. A second bolt shot past him to vanish at the edge of the empty zone around Mara; a third again wrapped itself around the lightsaber blade.

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:Raising her lightsaber, she charged.

C'baoth swung around to face her, his face contorted with rage. "No!" he screamed; and again the blue-white lightning crackled from his fingertips. Mara caught the burst on her lightsaber, her mad rush faltering as coronal fire burned all around her. C'baoth fired again and again, backing toward the throne and the solid wall behind it. Doggedly, Mara kept coming.

Star Wars: The Last Command wrote:The distraction was all the opening Mara needed. She leaped forward against the rocks still pummeling against her face, covering the last remaining distance between her and C'baoth; and as he brought his hands desperately back toward her, she dropped onto her knees in front of him and stabbed viciously upward with her lightsaber. With a last, mournful scream, C'baoth crumpledó

And as it had with the Emperor aboard the Death Star, the dark side energy within him burst out in a violent explosion of blue fire.

Luke was ready. Throwing every last bit of strength into the effort, he caught Mara in a solid Force grip, pulling her back away from that burst of energy as fast as he could. He felt the wave-front slam into him; felt the slight easing of stress as Leia's strength joined his effort.

And then, suddenly, it was all over.

Joruus comics:
SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) C_baot10

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) C_baot11

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) C_baot12

Essentially, Mara was quick enough to react to his very potent lightning, and coupled with her own strength in the Force, Mara was able to duck under his attack, get in front of him, and kill C'baoth before he could even look back onto her. This is after C'baoth's speed is proven to TK rocks in front of blaster bolts after having been fired.

And keep in mind this is before Mara grows "much more powerful."

Wizards of the Coast wrote:Mara Jade, Jedi depicts the New Republic version of this complex character. As might be expected, she is much more powerful than her former Imperial faction self.

II. Kyp Durron


Kyp Durron, with the totality of his power, is able to move a Yuuzhan Vong Dovin Basal singularity.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines 1: Rebel Dreams wrote:Kyp handing the task of flying evasively over to his reflexes while his mind went elsewhere.

Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

They were past the second wave of coralskippers now and heading toward the cloud surrounding Jag. Beyond it, not far now, was the second interdictor. Kyp knew that other skips had to be converging on him and Jaina. He didn't bother to look at his sensor board. They weren't relevant now.

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.

He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

[...]

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

The portions of the interdictor in closest proximity to the void accelerated faster into its maw so that portions farther back tore, venting gases into space. But the incredible gravity of the singularity didn't allow the remainder of the ship to tear away and be free. It dragged greater and greater portions of the interdictor into it, compressing them, rending them, and in a moment the interdictor was gone.

But you may ask how do we quantify this feat?

Coralskipper black holes around the time of the NJO should have way more pull/strength than, for example, moon-mass black holes. A moon-mass black hole would be compressed into a diameter of about barely 0.2 millimeters - or roughly the size of a grain of sand. In contrast,  the singularities were described as "gravity-intensive," "gravitic anomalies" and "distorting space around it like a gigantic magnifying lens."

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines 1: Rebel's Dreams wrote:No, it was eight streams. Luke's burst, aimed at the starboard side of the skip, never reached its target; a blackness appeared before it, distorting space around it like a gigantic magnifying lens, drawing the laserfire into it. Those four red lances of energy simply bent and disappeared. But Mara's burst, aimed at the port side, hit the coralskipper an instant after Luke's vanished. He grinned; she must have been using her own Force abilities to monitor him, as well. She couldn't have timed it so expertly otherwise. Her lasers raked across the enemy starfighter's hull until the distortion flicked over to interpose itself, then Luke fired again, chipping away at the coralskipper's stern. His blasts were joined by Corran's. The coral-like material of the skip's hull superheated and the lasers tore red-hot gouges along the surface.

Coralskipper black holes have some neat feats, like ragdolling 3 accelerating X-Wings, swallowing a fighter thrown at it by Kyp, and swallowing multiple torpedos while dragging more accelerating X-Wings. It's important to note that these feats aren't noted to be the Dovin Basal's ceiling, and as explained beforehand the gravity of even a real life moon-mass black hole would be substantially less than the one we're seeing here.

Spoiler:

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Dark Tide Onslaught wrote:Fire blossomed from the X-ceptor's nose as a proton torpedo squirted out. Jaina bounced her ship up after the launch and gained a bit of altitude. Below her the torpedo streaked straight at the first moving mountain shadow, then it exploded into a brilliant silvery ball that lit up the night.

The X-wing's canopy flash suppressor engaged immediately, cutting out most of the glare but still allowing her to see what was going on at the point of the attack. The torpedo had detonated shy of the target by about one hundred meters, and a void had gobbled up a lot of the energy, but what little it didn't consume wrought havoc on the ground. The energy evaporated soldiers, eliminating whole companies in the blink of an eye. Others it scattered like toys beneath a vengeful child's feet. The shock wave toppled several of the smaller vehicles, which looked to Jaina like bony armored domes mounted on brush-bristle cilia. Several rolled onto their backs, with their little legs waving in the air, while others that had their cilia flash-fried ground to a halt.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Vector Prime wrote:And then a larger coralskipper rushed in at the nearest Ranger gunship. They heard the banter between the two gunships, one commander saying that he had the coralskipper, all guns trained forward, and calling for the other to cover his attack.

And so the gunship cut loose, a tremendous barrage of flashing lasers that streaked at the coralskipper ...

And disappeared.

"Gravity well," Han muttered breathlessly. "Just like that thing on Sernpidal."

Then Leia cried out, and Han lurched to the side as she cut the Falcon sharply and turned her up on edge, then dived down before a pair of approaching coralskippers.

"They've got a gravity well," Han tried to explain. "A big one."

Even as he finished, Leia brought the Falcon up and around, the gunship spectacle coming back into view. The coralskipper continued to somehow absorb the laser blasts, bending them into a field of such tremendous gravity that they seemed to simply disappear. The coralskipper soared past the firing gunship, moved in between it and its companion, which also opened up all guns.

And then the strange enemy craft began to spin. Faster and faster, bending the laser streaks.

Han and Leia heard other nearby pilots screaming for the gunship commanders to get out of there, and so they seemed to be trying, breaking off their attacks and turning tail to the coralskipper. But they couldn't break free and began inadvertently circling the coralskipper.

Faster and faster they went, tighter and tighter the orbit.

They came crashing together, all three, and at that precise moment, the coralskipper gravity well dissipated and they all went up in a tremendous flash of brilliant energy.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Dark Journey wrote:The freighter never got close. One moment it was there; the next it simply disappeared into a void. What happened next was not exactly what Kyp had had in mind.

He'd hoped for a physical impact, or, barring that, that the freighter might overwhelm the dovin basal's capacity, leaving the big coralskipper vulnerable to attack. It had never occurred to him that the skip's multiple singularities might merge into one and fold in on the Yuuzhan Vong ship like a glove turning inside out. But suddenly, the freighter was gone. So was the coralskipper.

And so were the fleeing X-wings.

Death came to the pilots with a speed that neither fear nor thought could match. Neither of them saw its approach. None of their final emotions came through to Kyp-only a sudden, almost deafening blast of silence.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Dark Tide Onslaught wrote:Realizing that if he couldn't tell what the enemy was planning, going along with the enemy's plan was stupid, Gavin triggered a burst of flickers at the incoming target. The cloud of red energy needles flew out and, as he expected, curved in together into the black hole the coralskipper had erected to protect itself. What he hadn't expected is that the void would intercept them that far forward.

Gavin kicked his fighter into a snap roll to starboard, then jammed the throttle full. Sparks shot from the inertial compensator panel as the X-wing grazed the edge of the black hole. Catch screamed, and Gavin hugged the stick back to his chest. The X-wing shuddered and engines whined, but his speed started dropping. I'm getting sucked into that thing!

Gavin reversed thrust on his fighter, then ruddered the nose around to point at the black hole. The screaming engines fought the black hole's pull, but surrendered precious centimeter after centimeter to it. He flicked the weapons control over to proton torpedoes and emptied his magazine of six into the black hole. One after one the torps dived into the gravitic anomaly, and somehow the black hole managed to contain the vast energy their explosions released.

But, Gavin noticed, his rate of descent into the black hole slowed.

He flicked his thrust forward. The fighter picked up speed, attracted by the black hole and pushed by the engines. Then he pulled back on the stick and used the velocity he'd acquired to shoot past the black hole's edge.

More sparks shot through the cockpit, and his shields collapsed. His sensor screens blinked for a moment, then came back on full, but he couldn't see the coralskipper. "Catch, where is it?"

Nevil's voice came through the comm speakers in his helmet. "Thanks for distracting it, Lead. Seven and I angled in and got it. Not a pretty kill, but a kill."

"Thanks, Deuce. Flight leaders, report."

"Five here, Lead. Eight lost an engine and will have to be picked up, otherwise we're fine."

"Good, Five. Nine, what about Three flight?"

Alinn Varth's voice came through heavy with emotion. "Lost two, Lead. The one that almost got you dropped that big black hole on his tail as Eleven was closing. Dinger flew into it and never knew what hit him. Twelve got ripped up by it. Tik is extravehicular, negative life signs."


Now let's compare Luke and Kyp's respective feats against these singularities.

Luke Skywalker, operating in "nanoseconds," is able to get the feel of the Dovin Basal's power, and overwhelms the power of the Basals and throws the black hole at them.

Star Wars: New Jedi Order: Dark Tide Onslaught wrote:He dropped the aiming reticle over the slow-moving vehicle, then flipped a switch that turned control of the torpedoes' flight data to the Impervious. He kept his fighter pointed on target, then hit the trigger. Two proton torpedoes jetted away on azure fire, and another two came from his port. All four headed in on target.

Catch reported a gravitic anomaly, somewhat larger than most, had positioned itself to intercept the missiles. Gavin narrowed his eyes, waiting for the blast.I hope you know what you're doing, Luke.

[...]

"How's the missile telemetry coming through, Artoo?"

The little droid tootled confidently, spinning his head around to look at Luke.

A beep sounded from the droid, and Elegos glanced at a secondary monitor. "I have four torpedo launches. All are hot."

"Good."

Luke sank back into the chair and closed his eyes. He took a deep breath and reached out through the Force. He let his sense of things ride above the frayed ones' jagged profile and vectored in toward the vehicle. He got no solid sense of it directly, though a few frayed ones did appear to be housed inside. Instead he used that emptiness as a way point to search out a void, and as it formed, the black hole blossomed fully in the Force.

The void that the vehicle's dovin basals created to intercept the missiles was a gravitic anomaly that had substance in the real world. Tiny threads of the Force leaked into it as insects and birds, bats and bugs were pulled into it. Luke used their vanishing life traces and the very currents in the air that the void created to define the void. He traced its edges, knew exactly where it was, and knew how powerful it was.

He opened himself to the Force more fully than he had in years. He sought more power than he had when freeing his nephew. The Force flooded into him, at once molten-metal hot, yet as soothing as a cool rain. It swirled through him, filling every cell of his body, freeing him from fatigue, sharpening his mind.

Luke reached out with that power and latched onto the void that the Yuuzhan Vong vehicle had created. He pushed a bit, then tugged, in nanoseconds getting a feel for the power the dovin basals were able to exert to control the void. He almost smiled, since that amount of power was nothing compared to the Force, but he stopped himself short of pride in that fact.

"Artoo, juke the missiles."

R2-D2 keened sharply and fed the proton torpedoes a new set of data. The torpedoes twisted in flight and arced toward the sky, flying up and over the void. Then they turned again and fell toward the ground, aimed at the vehicle's spine.

Immediately the dovin basals started to shift the void to cover this new attack vector. Luke fed the Force into his hold on the void, thwarting them. Their pressure increased, and still Luke held it unmoving. The torpedoes got closer and closer. The dovin basals pulled harder, and when their effort reached a new peak, Luke let the void slip over toward intercepting the proton torpedoes.

The dovin basals devoted their efforts to sliding the void into place, which required both some lateral movement and shortening the arc over which the void would travel. As they brought it close to the vehicle, Luke pushed with the Force. Since the dovin basals were already tugging the void back toward the vehicle, they were not prepared to have the travel accelerated.

The void crashed into the vehicle, striking it in midspine. The long vehicle bent backward as both ends became sucked into the black hole. It flowed like thick liquid, all the sharp horns and bony plates becoming fluid as they curved up over the void's event horizon. In less than an eye blink the vehicle had been consumed by the void, leaving a huge gap in the Yuuzhan Vong formation.

Then the proton torpedoes detonated. One after another the four missiles slammed into the ground and exploded. Their blasts scattered Yuuzhan Vong warriors and lit the night. They gouged a huge canyon across the Yuuzhan Vong line of advance, and the shock waves were such that the ground rippled even into the refugee compound. Soldiers fell on both sides of the battlefield, and ramparts collapsed.

Now, back to Kyp Durron's own feat against the singularity, nothing in the text notes a difference in size to the one Luke did. Both Luke and Kyp are familiar with the power of Dovin Basals and coralskippers, so there's no knowledge gap here. While Kyp may be right or wrong about being more powerful than the Grandmaster, it doesn't mean that Luke isn't still operating in "nanoseconds." This coupled in with Kyp at-least needing this speed to be able to gauge the power of the Dovin Basal, and with more Dovin Basals to move than Luke, is indicative of Kyp also operating in nanoseconds to complete this feat.

And before we start chalking up these feats to the medium difference, lest us not forget that in this medium they are actively trying to portray Luke as human rather than a superhero, by specifically limiting what he'd be able to do, and this would by extension apply to Kyp as well.

And to wrap up this section, Mara Jade at the end of the Vong War is stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron, who is still an ally of Luke Skywalker despite their differences in approach.

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Mara_j10

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Mara_j11

III. Mara Jade vs Jacen Solo


This section will go into detail that Mara Jade can punch above her weight in the face of a being who is more powerful.

I'll let this anonymous user explain what happened during their fight.

Anonymous User wrote:Mara emphasises that she can't outstrip his force powers. That being said when they throwdown in the tunnels, Mara beats the shit out of him:

Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back.
She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight.
He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down.
They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust.
"Ben... I'll see you dead first... before... you get... Ben."
Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now.
"You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be."
"Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is.

Although Mara is noticably less powerful than Jacen, she outstrips Jacen in a close quarters setting, through sheer brutality and lightsaber mastery.

IV. Conclusion


1. Mara Jade through her speed is able to beat an opponent who can TK rocks in front of blaster fire, after being fired.
2. The singularities that Kyp and Luke move are significantly more massive than a moon.
3. Kyp Durron possesses Luke Skywalker's ability to operate in nanoseconds.
4. Mara Jade at the end of the Vong War scales above Kyp Durron.
5. Mara Jade when faced with a combatant who is superior in the Force, is able to show superiority through superior saber skills and sheer tenacity.

Unless you can prove Wyyrlok even remotely compares to Mara's power, speed, and fighting skill, it's a wash.

Mara blitzes.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Empty Re: SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77)

July 19th 2021, 2:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Great Expectations

"As the Legacy wank had risen long ago when I first joined the site, so, the Wyyrlok wank was rising now, and in all the broad expanse of tranquil light it showed to me, I saw no shadow of another parting from it."

1) Preface


To be frank EC, your post did not live up to my high, one might almost say great, expectations. I can quite literally ignore every single point made within it if I so wish, and be none the worse for wear. All you've done is present scaling for Mara that, while impressive, does little to tie her to Wyyrlok in any meaningful fashion. As a result I don't really feel inclined to address anything you wrote, and will instead lay out my own superior method of comparison, which places Wyyrlok solidly above Mara. Moving on...

2) Scaling


As you've been kind enough to note, Jacen is indeed much more powerful than Mara, a point emphasised in Sacrifice:

@EmperorCaedus wrote:This section will go into detail that Mara Jade can punch above her weight in the face of a being who is more powerful.

Legacy Of The Force: Sacrifice wrote:She couldn't outstrip his Force powers, but the tricks of flesh and blood put her on a more level playing field.

Likewise in Bloodlines we have both Jacen and Mara acknowledging him as her better, making it pretty cut and dry that Mara is just not up to par with her Nephew. Getting by only through picking the killing field and utilising superior weaponry.

By contrast, here is how Aurra performs against Jacen:

Spoiler:

Legacy Of The Force: Tempest wrote:Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.


A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.

Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

"You little shrew!"

Sing drew her leg back again to kick . . . then let it drop to the floor. Her eyes widened in anger-or perhaps it was fear. She craned her neck around, staring at Allana, and began to convulse. Jacen quickly pulled Sing's lightsaber from her unresisting hand, then held the still-ignited tip to the assassin's neck.

Take note of the underlined sections. Sing is able to compete with his speed, knock him around with physical attacks that he wasn't fast enough to respond to, and soak up his force push so well that she can even disarm him in the middle of it. By any metric she's at least as powerful as Mara, possibly far superior. Which leads us to...

Aurra Sing Databank wrote:The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

Secura outright stalemating Sing, as evidenced by both the Comic itself and the Databank.

Her superior in Vos is then manhandled by Dooku with the force in what is an exceptionally casual display of superiority.

Dooku himself is then bitched by Anakin:

Spoiler:

Revenge Of The Sith wrote:Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with the synthetic bloodshine of a Sith blade.

Who himself is basically stalemated by Kenobi on Mustafar:

Spoiler:

Revenge Of The Sith wrote:With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blacksand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on. Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally. Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.

Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell.

Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.

But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.

Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.

A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases.

The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.

Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.

He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.

And he let it go.

As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to.

But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed.

Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight.

He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction.

Obi-Wan lowered his head. "Good-bye, old friend." But the Force whispered a warning, and Obi-Wan lifted his head in time to see Anakin come hurtling toward him out from the boil of smoke above the falls, perched on a tiny repulsorlift droid. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around Obi-Wan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair.

"This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise."

"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.

Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back— Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

Anakin dropped his lightsaber, clawing at the edge of the cliff with his mechanical hand, but his grip was too powerful for the lava bank and it crumbled, and he slid down onto the black sand. His severed legs and his severed arm rolled into the lava below him and burned to ash in sudden bursts of scarlet flame.

The same color, Obi-Wan observed distantly, as a Sith blade. Anakin scrabbled at the soft black sand, but struggling only made him slip farther. The sand itself was hot enough that digging his durasteel fingers into it burned off his glove, and his robes began to smolder.

Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

Kenobi himself is then given a solid fight by Hett:

Spoiler:

The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Who himself notes that he is superior as Darth Krayt to a pretty radical degree:

Legacy: Claws Of The Dragon wrote:Do you think you can stand against me, Skywalker? I completed my training as both Jedi and Sith. I honed my skills in the Clone Wars and I’ve killed thousands of opponents since then.

Indicating that he has now surpassed Obi-Wan, and by extension Dooku.

Krayt's power is then further boosted by a near death experience:

Legacy: War wrote:I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.

With him going as far to state that it has multiplied. Leaving us with:

Reborn Krayt>>>Vong Krayt>>Obi-Wan Kenobi>Count Dooku>>>>Quinlan Vos>Aayla Secura ~ Aurra Sing>>Mara Jade.

Wyyrlok, as you know, is then able to duel Reborn Krayt and not get outright ended immediately. Which given the degrees of separation present here puts him firmly above Mara, who is buried in this chain, a chain that has at least a couple of one shot gaps between top and bottom. Even if I'm wrong on some individual points or placements here, the extent to which I would have to be misinterpreting the material for Wyyrlok to be below Mara is insane. I truly don't think you envision that I'm incorrect to such a degree, and will thus ask you to cease this nonsense, and give Krayt and Wyyrlok their rightful places as powerhouses well above the likes of Jade.

The Legacy fighter wins.
EmperorCaedus
EmperorCaedus
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Empty Re: SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77)

July 22nd 2021, 9:11 pm
“Before one can learn truth, one must unlearn lies.”

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Star-w10

I. Aurra Sing


DC77 wrote:Likewise in Bloodlines we have both Jacen and Mara acknowledging him as her better, making it pretty cut and dry that Mara is just not up to par with her Nephew. Getting by only through picking the killing field and utilising superior weaponry.

By contrast, here is how Aurra performs against Jacen:
Spoiler:
Sing was already whirling, leaping toward him with her crimson blade coming around at neck height. Jacen brought his lightsaber up automatically and blocked, then pulled the detonator's thumb slide back.

He never saw whether the activation light darkened. Suddenly Sing's knee was sinking into his stomach, driving the breath from his lungs and sending him tumbling over a couch. The detonator clattered to the floor somewhere in the galley. He came down on a beverage table, smashing it apart, then Sing was over him, her crimson blade arcing down.

Jacen whipped his lightsaber around to block, catching her blade about halfway up the shaft and filling the air with a sizzling shower of sparks. Sing grabbed her hilt with both hands and began to push, slowly driving the tip of her lightsaber down toward his eye.

The glow was as blinding as the heat was searing, and Jacen's vision blossomed into a fiery red blur. He brought his free hand up to brace his weapon arm and tried not to worry about whether his eyeball would melt, not daring to turn his head or even look away for fear that he would slip.

Sing kicked him in the side. The tip of a small, wedge-shaped blade scraped against his ribs and sent a blazing bolt of pain shooting into his body.

"Never..." She kicked him again, sending another bolt of pain deep into his stomach. "... violate..."

She kicked again.

"... my..." Another kick, more pain. "... mind!"

Sing kicked again, this time catching him near a kidney A wave of fiery anguish rolled through his body, stealing his breath, so hot he could not even scream. The pain would have paralyzed anyone else, left him on the floor praying to die before he drew his next breath.

But pain was an old friend of Jacen's. He had learned to embrace it during his imprisonment among the Yuuzhan Vong, and now it no longer troubled him. Now it served him.

He turned the palm of his bracing hand toward Sing and pushed with the Force.

The move did not surprise her as much as he had hoped. As she flew away, Sing rolled the tip of her blade over his, and his lightsaber went flying. He held his Force shove until he heard her thud into the wall opposite, then sprang to his feet.

A fiery blur continued to blind one eye, and his sight in the other was still splashed with crimson blotches. But he could see clearly enough to be worried. Sing had landed near the refresher where Allana was hiding-close enough to fulfill her contract, if she was willing to risk Jacen attacking her from behind.

Jacen did not give her that chance. He opened himself fully to his fear and anger, using the power of his emotions to bring the Force flooding into him, and his body began to crackle and burn with dark energy. He raised his arms in Sing's direction, hands held level and fingers splayed wide.

That was when the door to the refresher hissed open, and a pair of small gray eyes peered out. They were wide open and locked on Jacen with an expression that might have been awe or fear or both.

"No, Allana!" Jacen could not bring himself to release the Force lightning while she was watching; even if Tenel Ka had not yet taught her that the dark side was evil, his own childhood training remained strongly enough ingrained that he did not want his daughter to see him using it. "Close the ..."

Jacen had to let the order trail off when Sing took advantage of his hesitation to leap at him. Allana screamed from inside the refresher; then Sing was three paces away, lightsaber coming in for a midbody strike. Jacen lifted one foot as though to pivot away, and Sing took the bait and stopped, dropping one leg back as she continued her swing.

Instead of spinning past as he feinted, Jacen cartwheeled over her blade and came down on the other side. Sing reversed her attack so fast he barely had time to grab her wrist, much less turn her own weapon against her as he had intended.

So Jacen kicked her in the knee as hard as he could.

The joint dislocated with a sickening pop, and Sing collapsed to the floor shrieking. But she did not release her lightsaber. She did not even stop fighting, rolling into him in an effort to break his grasp and slash him open. Jacen started to pivot out of the way, intending to bring her arm around for a clean break behind her back.

But Allana suddenly appeared on the other side of Sing, charging forward with her dark brows lowered and what looked like a small recording rod clutched in her hands.

"Allana, no!"

Allana kept coming.

Determined to keep Sing from striking out at his daughter with any of her weapons, Jacen Force-leapt backward, dragging the assassin away from his daughter. Allana took two more steps and raised the silver rod over her head . . . then dived.

Sing raised her uninjured leg, cocking her foot to kick Allana with the stubby knife in the toe of her boot.

Jacen screamed and whipped Sing's arm around, twisting her away from his daughter. Her lightsaber flashed by so close he nearly lost an ear, but the assassin's legs spun around with her body, and the kick-knife flashed past half a meter above Allana's head.

Allana landed on Sing's other leg and jammed the silver rod into her injured knee. The hiss of an autoinjector sounded from its tip, and Sing cried out in astonishment.

"You little shrew!"

Sing drew her leg back again to kick . . . then let it drop to the floor. Her eyes widened in anger-or perhaps it was fear. She craned her neck around, staring at Allana, and began to convulse. Jacen quickly pulled Sing's lightsaber from her unresisting hand, then held the still-ignited tip to the assassin's neck.

Take note of the underlined sections. Sing is able to compete with his speed, knock him around with physical attacks that he wasn't fast enough to respond to, and soak up his force push so well that she can even disarm him in the middle of it. By any metric she's at least as powerful as Mara, possibly far superior. Which leads us to...

Except for the fact that we have much more reason to believe the disparity between Aurra and Jacen is much larger than Jacen and Mara.

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.

Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."

Her thumb twitched.

The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free, and suddenly he was completely outside her mind, watching in horror as she pitched the detonator toward the refresher where Allana was hid-ing.

Here we see Jacen was in the process of TP dominating Aurra, and is only unsuccessful due to losing his concentration when Aurra activates the detonator.

Near TP dominating another Force user requires one of the largest disparities in the mythos. For example, we have Luke Skywalker needing to root himself in the heart of the Force to stave off UnuThul's TK.

Dark Nest: The Swarm War wrote:But this time, Luke was ready. He placed his own hand in front of Raynar's and rooted himself in the heart of the Force, and when he did that, he became the very essence of the immovable object. Nothing could dislodge him-not one of Lando's asteroid tuggers, not the Megador's sixteen ion engines, not the black hole at the center of the galaxy itself.

But here UnuThul admits he can't TP Jacen, who would likely be one-shot by the same TK used against Luke.

Dark Nest: The Joiner King wrote:"Perhaps, but even we are not strong enough to control Jacen," Raynar said. "He has moved beyond our control-or anyone else's. You know that yourself."

While Jacen is above both Mara and Aurra in power, there is no reason to indicate the disparity is nearly the same given Mara's respective power and speed scaling outlined earlier, and the disparity required to almost TP dominate another Force user.

In other words, all you have proven is that Jacen is beyond both of them, not beyond both of them to the same degree required for your chain to hold.

II. Dooku and Kenobi


DC77 wrote:Dooku himself is then bitched by Anakin:

Spoiler:
Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.

Decide.

So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with the synthetic bloodshine of a Sith blade.

Who himself is basically stalemated by Kenobi on Mustafar:

Spoiler:
With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blacksand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on. Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally. Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.

Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell.

Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.

But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.

Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.

A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases.

The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.

Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.

He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.

And he let it go.

As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to.

But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed.

Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight.

He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction.

Obi-Wan lowered his head. "Good-bye, old friend." But the Force whispered a warning, and Obi-Wan lifted his head in time to see Anakin come hurtling toward him out from the boil of smoke above the falls, perched on a tiny repulsorlift droid. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around Obi-Wan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair.

"This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise."

"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.

Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back— Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

Anakin dropped his lightsaber, clawing at the edge of the cliff with his mechanical hand, but his grip was too powerful for the lava bank and it crumbled, and he slid down onto the black sand. His severed legs and his severed arm rolled into the lava below him and burned to ash in sudden bursts of scarlet flame.

The same color, Obi-Wan observed distantly, as a Sith blade. Anakin scrabbled at the soft black sand, but struggling only made him slip farther. The sand itself was hot enough that digging his durasteel fingers into it burned off his glove, and his robes began to smolder.
 

Even accounting for the variables influencing the gap in performance, intuitively it's nothing short of asinine to argue that Kenobi, who puts Anakin through a 9 minute marathon, is inferior to Dooku, who is clobbered in under 20 seconds.

There is no basis of comparison between their respective performances against Anakin.

The gap between Obi-Wan and Anakin is "enormous," the former only able to close the gap due to his familiarity with Anakin and emotional maturity.

Star Wars: Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote:Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."

Here's an example of Anakin's mental state going into the fight.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:She will die, you know, the dragon whispered.

He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear.

All things die.

Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel.

Now its poison chilled him to the bone.

Even stars burn out.

The "dragon" being a metaphor for his doubts and insecurities regarding his ability to save Padme. Meanwhile against Dooku, Anakin is in one of the best mental states of his life.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:We'll see about that.

He gave himself to the battle, and his starfighter whirled and his cannons hammered, and droids on all sides began to burst into clouds of debris and superheated gas.

This was how he relaxed.

This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

And even then, we have a much more reliable indicator of the disparity between Kenobi and Dooku.

III. Kenobi and Hett


DC77 wrote:Kenobi himself is then given a solid fight by Hett:

Spoiler:
Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

There should be a considerable gap between ROTS Obi-Wan and Obi-Wan 2 years post ROTS due to being weakened as a result of the deaths and collapse of the Jedi order.

Star Wars: The Last One Standing wrote:Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it.

Heir to the Empire Sourcebook wrote:Still, he (Ben) hated hiding while Jedi after Jedi was killed by agents of the Emperor’s New Order. He heard every scream of death echo in the force, and his heart broke a little more.

And we see that Yoda is impacted by these deaths in the same way.

Star Wars: Head to Head wrote:As Yoda approaches 900 years old, he is slowed down not by age but by a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Eyes closed, Yoda gave himself up to the Force. Yes, there it was — the sense of someone reaching for him. Almost, he succeeded. Something brushed close to Yoda … no, someone, someone who felt familiar. And then, suddenly, shock waves ripped through the Force. Jedi are dying.

The same source notes that it's due to this that Darth Vader, who is below the TPM crew, would be "too powerful" for Yoda to handle.

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Vader_10

Star Wars: Head to Head wrote:Vader proves too powerful for the venerable Jedi Master, who awaits a new hope to help bring balance to the force. He is not as fast or agile as he once was.

While the time difference is larger with Yoda vs Vader, it's still 2 years of wallowing on a desert, lamenting over the deaths of your comrades that once amped you should be enough time to where the connection to ROTS Obi-Wan and 2 years after is disparate enough to break a hole in your chain.

Moreover, there's something important to note in the last paragraph of the fight.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

Kenobi when realizing he is fighting for Luke was essentially able to one-shot Hett, calling into question Kenobi's output previous to this moment.

Kenobi was in a similar state of mind when fighting against Anakin, in which both times having an epiphany that results in higher output.

Star Wars: Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

IV. Wyyrlok


DC77 wrote:Wyyrlok, as you know, is then able to duel Reborn Krayt and not get outright ended immediately. Which given the degrees of separation present here puts him firmly above Mara, who is buried in this chain, a chain that has at least a couple of one shot gaps between top and bottom. Even if I'm wrong on some individual points or placements here, the extent to which I would have to be misinterpreting the material for Wyyrlok to be below Mara is insane. I truly don't think you envision that I'm incorrect to such a degree, and will thus ask you to cease this nonsense, and give Krayt and Wyyrlok their rightful places as powerhouses well above the likes of Jade.

Wyyrlok doesn't scale to Krayt at all. Wyyrlok is "far outstripped" by even Vong Krayt.

Star Wars Insider #88 wrote:"His knowledge of the rituals and and lore of the Sith is unparalleled, and his dark side abilities are surpassed only by Krayt."

Star Wars: Insider #113 wrote:Krayt perfected his combat techniques over many decades and his skills with telekinesis and Sith lightning far outstripped those of any Sith of his era.

Who as you pointed out, is a far cry from Reborn Krayt.

Star Wars: Legacy--War wrote:I have been through death and conquered it. I have returned with my power multiplied.

And moreover, Wyyrlok being able to deflect a couple saber strikes against a vastly superior opponent isn't indicative of any sort of parity needed for your chain to hold, due to you also not quantifying that all of the gaps added together equate to multiple one-shot gaps as you claim.

DC77: wrote:To be frank EC, your post did not live up to my high, one might almost say great, expectations. I can quite literally ignore every single point made within it if I so wish, and be none the worse for wear. All you've done is present scaling for Mara that, while impressive, does little to tie her to Wyyrlok in any meaningful fashion. As a result I don't really feel inclined to address anything you wrote, and will instead lay out my own superior method of comparison, which places Wyyrlok solidly above Mara. Moving on...

And this is a mistake on your part.

You're argument requires for every single link to hold - with no room allowed for unquantifiable or outright debunked links - and then quantify that those links equate to multiple one-shot gaps to put Wyyrlok on top. Meanwhile, my argument is quite simple, in that Mara scales over TKing moon+ mass and can operate in not only extremely fast - but in literal and quantifiable nanoseconds in a medium in which they actively try not to portray their characters as powerful, which requires an output that you haven't shown Wyyrlok capable of in the slightest.

But there is an appeal that I feel I didn't use nearly enough in my previous post.

An Appeal to Intuition and Hype


As stated earlier, Mara Jade Skywalker scales above Kyp Durron, who is hyped up to be on of the most powerful Force users of his time. There are numerous accolades that speak to his sheer raw power and potential in the Force.

Jedi Academy II - Dark Apprentice wrote:‘Luke remembered the dark-haired teen Han had rescued from the black spice mines. When Luke had used a Jedi testing technique to see if Kyp had potential to use the Force, the boy’s response had knocked Luke across the room. In his entire Jedi search, Luke had never encountered such power.‘

Essential Guide to Characters wrote:‘Luke Skywalker tested Kyp’s Jedi power potential. What he discovered was the strongest Force presence he had known since his Masters, Obi-Wan Kenobi and Yoda.‘

The New Jedi Order: Yselia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Ja_lev10

Even enjoying loose comparisons to Luke Skywalker, the Grandmaster of the New Jedi Order and son of the Chosen One.

New Jedi Order - Agents of Chaos I: Hero's Trial wrote:But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’

The New Jedi Order: Enemy Lines I: Rebel Dream wrote:And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

And even Luke considering Kyp with the help of Exar Kun to be his "greatest enemy," presumably having Palpatine in mind who he had just faced two years earlier.

SS - Mara Jade Skywalker (EmperorCaedus) vs Darth Wyyrlok III (DC77) Leviat10

Why is Kyp the greatest though? It's largely due to his power in the Force.

I, Jedi wrote:‘Kyp’s presence seemed to put a spark back into Master Skywalker-the spark that had been diminished since Gantoris’ death. Kyp proved almost immediately to be the greatest of the apprentices gathered there. With only a minimum of training, he blasted on past all of us in terms of what he could do.’

Jedi Academy II: Darth Apprentice wrote:‘In little more than a week of intensive work, Kyp had surpassed the achievements of the other Jedi students.’

Though you can chalk it up to being under the influence of Exar Kun's own power, but we know for a fact that Kyp grows stronger later on.

Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:The academy’s first year was marked by unanticipated events, including the resurrection of Exar Kun’s spirit, which resulted in the death of Gantoris and the dark side seduction of Kyp Durron. Mara Jade, Corran Horn, and Kyle Katarn left the praxeum for different reasons, but each eventually returned to resume training. Although critics suggested that Luke Skywalker might have done better to begin with fewer students, all the surviving students were stronger and more united by their experiences, and better prepared for service to the New Republic.

Legacy of the Force: Exile wrote:When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

All of Kyp's hype culminates in the Dovin Basal feat, which it's impressiveness was outlined earlier and left unanswered.

Spoiler:
‘Within the Force, within the broader range of senses it gave him, he tried to feel the presence of that void. He couldn't feel the Yuuzhan Vong or their creatures, but he could feel distortions in space, hard little nuggets of wrongness where there should be nothing.

He felt many of them, but didn't know which belonged to the interdictor, which to the coralskippers, and this rarefied sensory data didn't precisely translate to exact directions and distances. A void that felt far away could be from a coralskipper close at hand.

He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.

He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.

And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.

It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...

For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.

Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.

The portions of the interdictor in closest proximity to the void accelerated faster into its maw so that portions farther back tore, venting gases into space. But the incredible gravity of the singularity didn't allow the remainder of the ship to tear away and be free. It dragged greater and greater portions of the interdictor into it, compressing them, rending them, and in a moment the interdictor was gone.

Kyp felt obliterated, bone-tired, as though he'd run for days, drawing on the Force to sustain him, and had finally settled down for rest. His diagnostics board was beeping at him and he spared it a glance.‘

This is Kyp's magnum opus feat, and more than lives up to his hype of becoming the "greatest of us all" and drawing on the power that is reminiscent of Yoda's according to Luke. Kyp was completely confident in his ability to accomplish the feat and is proven himself correct in every aspect except maybe being stronger than Luke, which the author backtracked on.

In comparison, Wyyrlok is simply a "second to the Emperor" character, likely above everyone else but substantially below the main guy. He doesn't nearly enjoy as many power accolades or hype, and does nothing of note regarding overt showings of Force power relative to his era or medium. I'd be happy to be proven wrong here, but the simple answer is Kyp has substantially better hype and accolades placing him in the vicinity of his era's number one, while Wyyrlok pales in comparison to his era's number one.

VI. Conclusion


Here are all the chains that have been debunked, even if it's plausible that some of these still hold, you must prove that all of them hold for the chain to remain.

- Mara to Aurra.
- Dooku to Kenobi.
- Kenobi to Hett.
- Wyyrlok to Krayt

Mara has a lot more going for her when compared to Aurra, who almost gets outright TP dominated by by a weaker Jacen. Dooku and Kenobi's respective performances are faulty due to the circumstances that uniquely allow for Kenobi to perform. Kenobi should be vastly weakened from his ROTS self, and even then he gets one-shot when he actually tries against Hett. And Wyyrlok doesn't hold a candle to Vong Krayt, let alone peak Reborn Krayt who you're trying to scale Wyyrlok to.

Meanwhile Mara has scales above significantly better hype, accolades, and feats relative to a medium where the authors are actively downplaying what a Force user is capable of for the sake of the story.

Mara still wins.
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