April 19th 2022, 7:49 pm
-Darth Caedus as of Legacy of the Force: Invincible
-Kyle Katarn as of Fate of the Jedi
Mara Jade as of Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice
-This debate concerns the Lucasfilm Licensing universe and adheres to its public and internal policies and directives.
-Quotes and stats are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
-Feats take precedence over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
-There will be 3 posts per each side and a time limit of 2 weeks per post. Extensions can be granted at the discretion of the two debaters.
-There will be no character limit.
April 19th 2022, 8:56 pm
I will open
May 1st 2022, 6:23 am
h2]Whatever Jacen has become, he was a hero once. Jacen Solo saved the galaxy[/h2]
Going to go through Caedus's fights against Mara and Kyle in case they are bought up later:
Caedus vs Mara
Firstly let's get out of the way that Caedus is already regarded as Mara's comfortable superior in force power even as of Bloodlines, per Mara herself:
"No, I feel that Jacen's developing powers way beyond mine, and that he's good for Ben, and that he would never harm him." Source: Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:
And Caedus notes Mara to be inferior to himself:
Meanwhile, Mara was challenging him, pinpointing herself in the tunnels that ran deep under the Kavan countryside, thinking she was still an A-list assassin and that she could take someone who had complete mastery of the Force. She was a superb assassin, but her Force skills were crude compared to his. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
Note: Per one of the authors Karan Traviss, Caedus's musings are valid:
How does a clever, morally aware man go down the path that Jacen does? By self-delusion and self- justification. Jacen already has a high opinion of his powers and judgment, and that’s not misplaced: the man is good at his work. Source: SW.com: Bloodlines interview: Karen Travis wrote:
Now, let's look at the fight itself:
Firstly, the tunnels they fought in were noted by Mara herself, to favour Mara's fighting skills while stopping Caedus from using his powers to their greatest extent:
“Fine. If I get him in a confined space, he can't use all his Force skills, but I can make the most of what I've got. She decided to make her way into the maze of buried passages and get Jacen to follow her.” Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
Before going into the tunnels, Caedus is then cheap shotted in the knee by Mara, making it difficult for him to stand , nevermind fight:
His right knee exploded with blinding pain as Mara cannoned out horizontally, Force-assisted, from a side conduit and caught his leg on the joint with her boots, ripping the tendons. As he lost his footing in the narrow passage, screaming, he found himself wedged for a second and groping for support. He lashed out with his lightsaber, shaving powdery brick from the wall. Mara dropped to the muddy floor to dodge the lightsaber, then sprang up and sprinted away down the tunnel. It wasn't a good start. Jacen swore and made himself run after her, willing endorphins to numb his leg and telling himself that he knew she was setting up a trap. She wanted him confined, pinned down, penned. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
And I do want to highlight, that Caedus ignoring the pain doesn't change the fact that his leg still being crippled and much harder to use effectively. Caedus's injuries are still handicaps. This is stated in Fury:
[quote="Allana was no longer afraid of him, and had accepted him-instantly, with boundless affection-as her father. The Hapans were still behaving well enough, now staging raids on critical Confederation sites and resources. Caedus himself felt healthy again, fully healed for the first time since his fight with Luke. And right up to the day of Caedus's operation to capture Centerpoint, Corellia's defenses had been growing weaker, more lax.
All was not lost, though. Caedus had resources still available to him. He was fresh. He had eight YVH droids. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury"][/quote]
Caedus, having recovered from the injuries fully, views this positively, especially when headed into a battle with Luke and Saba. So whatever power boost he gains,, it doesn't change his overall state still being weakened. Injuries are still a negative. Anyway, back to Caedus vs Mara.
Mara then brings down the cave on Caedus, trapping him beneath it for an extensive period of time. Crippling him further:
- If she'd timed it right, he was close to stepping on that rusty plate. Clang. . . The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke. Mara waited, one hand over her mouth and nose, shoto drawn, and listened in the Force. There was whimpering and the chunk-chunk sound of the last falling bricks. She didn't expect that weight of debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immobilize him. He wouldn't be dead—yet. She waited in silence, a nonexistent presence herself, until she could hear no more movement. Okay. Let's see what I have to do to end this. An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face. A hand reached out to her, fingers splayed, bloody and shaking. Other people might have felt an urge to take that hand, the most distinctively human of things, but it “debris from a low ceiling to cause impact injury, but to engulf and immobilize him. He wouldn't be dead—yet. She waited in silence, a nonexistent presence herself, until she could hear no more movement. Okay. Let's see what I have to do to end this. An arm was all that protruded from the rubble. Through a fist-sized gap, she could see the wet, blinking glint of an eye and bloodstained face. A hand reached out to her, fingers splayed, bloody and shaking. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice:
Despite this, Caedus still manages to break free from the rubble and hurls it at Mara. With his body being described as "crushed and bleeding", as well as him "staggering more than standing."
He deflected the energy bolt with one last surge of the Force and sent the rubble erupting off his crushed and bleeding body like a detonation. Bricks hammered the walls and rained fragments, knocking Mara flat like a bomb blast. She made an animal noise that was more anger than pain and flailed for a moment as she tried to get up. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
While yes, Mara was hit by some of the rubble, there is no indication that her injuries were even close to Caedus's. Especially given Caedus already having a crippled knee and was stuck under the rubble for a period of time.
Caedus then struggles to merely get up and prepare himself for the fight, (highlighting how weak he is compared to normal) and is momentarily engulfed by the enormity of the situation. How Mara had to die for him to fulfil his destiny. As a result, he's caught off guard by Mara and is stabbed in the chin with a vibroblade. Further contributing to his already dire state:
- The effort froze Jacen for two vital seconds. But he knew if he didn't get up now and fight back, Mara would come in for the kill, again and again, until he was worn down and too weak to fend her off. He scrambled to his feet, staggering more than standing, and suddenly understood. It was Mara who had to die to fulfill his destiny. Killing her was the test: the words of the prophecy were meaningless, and at a visceral level he knew that her death was the pivotal act. He didn't know how, and this wasn't the time to stop and think about it. He surrendered totally to instinct for the first time in ages. Whatever guided a Sith's hand had to guide him now. But he was hurt, and badly. Ben ... he didn't know where Ben fitted into this, but now he knew he did, as surely as he knew anything. Jacen didn't care, because he knew he had to kill Mara now and nothing else would make sense until he did that. He fumbled for his lightsaber and thumbed it into life again. Mara was already back on her feet, coming at him with the shoto and vibroblade, brick dust and black-red blood snaking down her forehead from a scalp cut. She leapt at him with the shoto held left-handed, fencing-style, seared the angle of his cheekbone, and caught him under the tip of chin with the vibroblade as he jerked back. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice:
They then begin to fight, and on top of all the other odds stacked against Caedus, his lightsaber is virtually useless in this situation. With Caedus unable to draw the needed weaponry in the middle of the duel, in main part stemming from his established hindrance.
The duel also being cited as more of a brawl than a standard duel because of the environment, which is a completely different scenario to here.
She shouldn't have been able to get near him. He had total mastery, and she was just athletic and fast. He pushed back at her in the Force, sending her crashing against a wall with a loud grunt, but she kept coming at him, one-two, one-two with the shoto and the blade, and he was being driven back, his strength ebbing. He needed space to fight. He drew his dart gun and fired one after the other, but Mara scattered all four needles in a blur of blue light. They fell to the ground. He turned and scrambled through the collapsed brick, using the Force to hurl debris up at her from the floor of the passage while she leapt from block to boulder to chunk of masonry, until she Force-leapt onto his back and brought him down. They rolled. This wasn't a duel: it was a brawl. She thrust her vibroblade up under his chin and he jerked his head to one side, feeling the tip skate from his jaw to his hairline as it missed his jugular. He couldn't draw the weapons he needed. He was losing blood, losing strength, waning, flailing his lightsaber to fend her off. It was almost useless in such a close-quarters struggle. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
They continue to fight and Caedus despite all his hindrances is able to fend Mara off to a degree. Yet as a result of both the environment and Caedus's own injuries, he walked into a crack in the ground. Which further injured Caedus and deprived him of his lightsaber. As a result, Mara manages to stab Caedus with a lightsaber into his collarbone:
- Mara, manic and panting, flicked the shoto to counter every desperate stabbing thrust. "Ben... I'll see you dead first... before... you get... Ben." Jacen was on the knife-edge between dying and killing. They grappled, Force-pushed, Force-crushed: he threw her back again, trying to Force-jolt her spine and paralyze her for a moment, but somehow she deflected it and bricks flew out of the wall as if someone had punched them through from the other side. She almost Force-snatched the lightsaber from his hand, but even with his injuries he hung on to it. He wouldn't die. He couldn't, not now. "You can't beat me," he gasped. "It's not meant to be." "Really?" Mara snarled. "I say it is."
Then she launched herself at him-unthinking, a wild woman, hair flying-and he Force-pushed to send her slamming against a pillar in midleap.[b:2172:
- But the battering he'd taken and the ferocity of her relentless attack had blinded him to danger from another quarter. As he lurched backward to avoid her, his legs went from under him and he stumbled into a gaping crack opened up by the subsidence. He fell badly: red-hot pain seared from ankle to knee. His lightsaber went flying. Pain could be ignored, but the moment it took him to get to his feet again was enough for Mara to right herself and come back at him with the shoto and plunge it into the soft tissue just under the end of his collarbone. Lightsaber wounds hurt a lot more than he ever imagined. Jacen screamed. He summoned his own weapon back to his hand and Mara crashed into him, knocking him flat again and pinning him down. Her vibroblade stopped a hand span from his throat as he managed to grab her hair and drag her face nearer and nearer to his lightsaber. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice"]
Caedus then manages to hold off Mara for a time, before deceiving her with an illusion and killing her:
She struggled to pull back, hacking at him with the shoto but blocked by his dwindling Force power each time. Her vibroblade grazed his neck. He fumbled in his belt for a dart. She jerked back with a massive effort, leaving him clutching a handful of red hair, and the only thing that crossed his mind as she arched her back and held her arms high to bring both shoto and vibroblade down into his chest was that she would never, ever harm Ben. Jacen stared into her eyes and instantly created the illusion of Ben's face beneath her. She blinked. It gave him the edge for that fraction of a moment. It was long enough to ram the poison dart into her leg with its protective plastoid cone still in place. It was just a small needle, ten centimeters long. He stabbed her so hard that the sharp end punched through the cone and the fabric of her pants. Mara gasped and looked down at her leg as if she was puzzled rather than hurt. The dart quivered as she moved, and then fell to the floor. "Oh . . . it's done . . ." Jacen said. The shoto fell from her hand and she made a vague and uncontrolled pawing movement with the vibroblade. It caught him in the bicep, but there was no strength behind the blow, and she dropped the weapon. "I'm sorry, Mara. Had to be you. Thought it was Ben. But it's over now, it's over. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice wrote:
To summarise the Mara fight:
>The environment was noted to favour Mara's fighting style and hinder Caedus's.
>Caedus was cheap shotted by Mara in the knee prior to their fight in the tunnels. Making it difficult for him to stand nevermind fight.
>Caedus is then tricked by Mara and has the cave bought down upon him which trapped him for a time. Which resulted in him "staggering more than standing" and his body was "crushed and bleeding."
>Despite this, Caedus manages to break free from the rubble, and hurls it at Mara.
>The effort of doing so and Caedus realising how important the situation was in regards to his destiny momentarily stun him, allowing Mara to stab him in the Jaw with her vibroblade.
>Caedus's lightsaber was virtually useless in the environment they were fighting in. With him also being unable to draw the weapons needed because of the intensity of the duel.
>The fight is also described as being more of a brawl than a duel which is a seperate scenario from this fight here.
>As a result of the environment and his injuries, Caedus stumbles into a crack, which further injuries him and disarms him of his lightsaber.
>This leaves Caedus open to Mara who then stabs Caedus in the collarbone with her lightsaber.
>Caedus then still holds off Mara for a time, before deceiving her with an illusion and killing her.
No favourable performance can be drawn for Mara here. Admittedly it's not the greatest performance but one riddled with context which wouldn't be present in this scenario.
Let's now look at how Caedus compares with Kyle, in their fight in Fury:
Caedus vs Kyle:
Post killing Mara Caedus gains a significant boost:
Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus. ... Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule. Source: The Essential Reader's Companion wrote:
Caedus later considered Kyle to be a greater threat than Mara:
[mention]Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him. Katarn, though, was a threat. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury
Meanwhile, Mara was challenging him, pinpointing herself in the tunnels that ran deep under the Kavan countryside, thinking she was still an A-list assassin and that she could take someone who had complete mastery of the Force. She was a superb assassin, but her Force skills were crude compared to his. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice[/mention] wrote:
Mara is also noted as being a peer of Corran Horn:
After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes. Source: I, Jedi wrote:
Who even combined with the other two Jedi with them save Katarn are stated by Caedus to be "no match" for him. Putting both Caedus and Katarn solidly over Mara.
Onto the fight itself:
Firstly let's get out of the way some of the context here. Namely, Caedus not having recovered from fighting Luke:
Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping. And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping. He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:
This is corroborated by Luke:
"You can. You should. Jacen is ... extraordinarily dangerous. If he sees you, he might devote only a single, negligent attack to you. Such an attack would distract a Jedi Master, hurt a Jedi Knight... and kill you." Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:
Per Luke - the guy who fought Caedus only weeks if not days prior, Jacen's singular attacks given with little effort would be enough to distract a master and hurt a knight. Except this never occurs in this fight:
[mention]With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down.
In one sense, it was a beautiful and brilliant thing to see. The five combatants moved as though they'd been choreographing this event for years and had planned, all along, that the two sides would somehow be even.
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury[/mention] wrote:
His opening TK doesn't appear to cause any real damage, and his later attack on Kyle is intercepted. Neither of these attacks fit the standard Luke lays out prior). Cementing Caedus still being weakened from his duel with Luke.
And Caedus wanted to take the Jedi alive, thus would refrain from landing potentially fatal blows which would of ended the duel far sooner:
Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question." Source: Legacy of the Force Fury wrote:
And yet, how does Kyle compare with Caedus here?
Firstly, Caedus muses he could of blocked Kyle's opening attack in his sleep. Which doesn't bode well for their acclaimed parity. More notably however, Kyle is unable to do jack while Caedus rag dolls and dominates his allies:
He sensed Katarn's attack, threw up his blade in a block so well practiced that his muscle memory could have performed it while he slept. With his free hand, he gestured at the Bothan Jedi. She was suddenly airborne, hurtling sideways to slam into the Falleen, knocking them both down. Katarn's blade struck his, rebounded with a snap-hiss. and came around from the other side as the Jedi Master executed a lightning-fast spin. Caedus stepped back from it. not engaging the blade. He watched the blade flash harmlessly past him. He stepped forward again into a side kick, aimed not at Katarn but at the onrushing Valin Horn. His boot heel caught the Jedi Knight on the point of his chin, knocking Horn backward off his feet. Two seconds had passed since the attack began. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:
Caedus then almost amputates Kyle, only being stopped by Kolir:
Caedus rolled out of Katarn's kick to his head, catching a scrape along his cheek, and swung at the Master's leg, but Kolir's blade intercepted his before it bit into flesh. His strength batted her weapon away, but she had deflected his blow and spared Katarn an amputation. They're coordinating. Good for them. Bad for me. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:
To address this quote before it comes up:
Caedus being "even" with the team for a few moments in the middle of the duel means nothing as to how they overall compare to Caedus. For example, Ventress was seemingly "even" with Dooku for a time in their brief 1v1 yet Dooku is still clearly comfortably superior.
You could also attribute this to Caedus's stamina being sapped at a faster rate due to him not having recovered fully from fighting Luke but I digress.
Anyway following shortly, Caedus is able to keep track of four vehicles simultaneously while duelling Kyle and the three other Jedi. Even casually rag dolling one of them during the scuffle:
- Caedus heard a siren-an oncoming GAG vehicle. No, two-maybe three. He allowed himself a certain satisfaction at their speed of response. He hadn't expected anything of the sort for another half minute. Then, from the corner of his eye, he saw the first oncoming vehicle, an aging Sentinel-class armored shuttle. It was yellow, with spots of rust. He could not make out its markings without looking at it, but he knew it was not in GAG or Alliance colors. Entering airspace above the plaza, it began a dangerously steep and fast repulsorlift descent. Behind it came three GAG airspeeders, one of them firing a top-mounted laser at the shuttle. Ah. So they were not responding with brilliant speed to an alarm. They were chasing the Jedi escape vehicle. Caedus swung at Horn, a blow meant not to connect but to cause the young Jedi to flinch away into the path of the Falleen, which he did. While they were interfering with each other, Caedus gestured at the Bothan Jedi, hurling her toward Katarn. Katarn hurled his lightsaber off the side and caught Hu'lya with both hands, preventing her from falling, prepared to pull her out of harm's way if Caedus followed through. Caedus did not. He kept his senses on Katarn's light-saber, and, when it vectored to fly toward him from the side, he negligently swatted it away with his own blade.
Fifteen seconds. Caedus gave Katarn and Hu'lya a little smile. "You could save yourselves a lot of pain by telling me now where Luke has set up the new Jedi headquarters. I swear, when you are in my hands, you will answer that question." The Bothan got her feet back under her and stood at the ready. Katarn caught his returning lightsaber. "Meaning you will torture us to death. Are you listening to yourself, Jacen? Do you even know who you are anymore?" "I do. It's you who have no idea who I am." He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off. Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .
One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury"]
Which rather explicitly illustrates the disparity between the two. If Kyle was in any way close to Caedus then he should of been able to cut down Caedus swiftly whilst the latter was distracted by the four vehicles. This is on top of Caedus keeping focus on the three other Jedi present as well.
Following swiftly, Caedus pulls down the oncoming GAG speeder at them all, which knocks Kyle towards Caedus, and disperses the other three Jedi present. Caedus then stabs Kyle in the chest:
- Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them. A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger. Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety. Katarn now stood so close to Caedus that every facial feature was visible, every scar and line in his weathered face, every hair on his brow, mustache, and beard. Caedus felt a rush of satisfaction, enjoyment, as Katarn's expression turned from one of surprise to pain. Katarn looked down to see Caedus's lightsaber buried to its hilt in his chest. A noise, something halfway between a groan and a death rattle, emerged from Katarn's lips. Smiling, Caedus yanked his lightsaber free and let the stricken Jedi Master fall face-first on the pavement.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury:
At this point Caedus's stamina has begun to diminish, due to it already being weakened from his prior fight with Luke. Allowing one of the Jedi, Mithric to pressure him along with Corran deflecting a volley of blaster bolts towards him. Despite this he still manages to adapt the the new situation and kills Mithric shortly afterward.
Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping. And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping. He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke. And now, as more of his troopers began firing, Horn began deflecting more bolts at him. The imprecise, barely aimed nature of the attacks worked in Horn's favor. The shots were unpredictable and Caedus had to divide his attention be-tween a mad swordsman and a growing number of half-blind snipers. But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had been. Caedus waited until the timing was perfect, waited until an incoming bolt arrived at the same moment as one of Mithric's attacks so he could devote a single maneuver to both. He caught Mithric's blow toward the hilt of his lightsaber. He caught the bolt near the tip, deflecting it up and straight into Mithric's chest. Mithric staggered back, the center of his chest blackened, as the smell of burned skin and meat filled the air. Caedus leapt up and executed a single, precise lateral blow. Mithric's head fell from his shoulders. His body toppled down half a second later. Caedus and Horn spun to face each other. An expression of sadness crossed Horn's face, but his dismay did not distract him. He caught three more blaster bolts with his lightsaber blade without looking at their firers. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:
Let's summarise this fight:
>Caedus is already exhausted from the onset of the duel.
>Caedus didn't want to kill the Jedi for a significant portion of the duel, which inherently leads to him not following through with potentially fatal attacks.
>Despite these circumstances, Caedus casually blocks Katarn's initial attack.
>And mere moments later, Caedus almost amputates Kyle with the latter only surviving due to one of the other Jedi blocking the attack.
>Caedus manages to keep track of the trajectories of four vehicles while simultaneously duelling the Jedi. Speaking volumes about his superiority.
>Caedus then pulls one of the vehicles down onto the Jedi and manages to disperse the Jedi and hit Katarn. Allowing Caedus to stab him shortly afterwards.
> Caedus's stamina then begins to diminish and as a result he struggles momentarily against Mithric and the blaster bolts deflected at him by Horn.
> Despite this he still succeeds in killing Mithric shortly afterward.
While Katarn certainly wasn't fodder to Caedus, he wasn't exactly close either. With Mara locked decently beneath Katarn nevermind Caedus, it's not looking great to them right now. But let's put the final nail in the coffin and address how Caedus as of his prime compares with Caedus here.
In Inferno, a stronger version of Caedus than the one who fought Katarn is casually dominated by Luke:
- In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble.[b:2172:
- Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair. "Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it." Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight.
He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator. "Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..." "This has nothing to do with Mara," Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way." The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it.
While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion. Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
"Then I'll take it for what it's worth," Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out." Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority. Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno"]
And while it is true that Caedus wasn't expecting Luke's attack, it's still made clear from the text that Skywalker is far more powerful than his nephew. Once he tried to fight back, Jacen didn't move at all. His best efforts at resistance were a complete and utter joke. And yet, Luke wasn't even coming close to going all out. The text repeatedly notes that Luke wasn't exerting any effort into dominating Caedus, and that he had pinned his nephew down with a casual demonstration of power. If Caedus' power was really comparable to Luke's here, Caedus' best efforts at resisting Luke's grip wouldn't be annihilated with comical ease. Luke would have been unable to bind him with such little effort.
Later on, when they fight Caedus is near blitzed by Luke, only surviving due to the environment:
- Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang. Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head. But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh. The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse. Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps. Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt. [b:2172:
- Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been. Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno"]
Yet in Invincible, Caedus, fights Jaina who was amped by Luke. Lets break it down:
Initially Jaina has the advantage however Caedus at this point only has one functional arm, which would obviously hinder his overall combative ability:
[mention]They started to drop, trading a trio of lightning-fast blows that left Caedus's hands stinging and his heart racing. The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife. After the third exchange, Caedus and Luke came down in the seating area, two rows apart. Both landed on their feet, Luke more lightly than Caedus.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible[/mention] wrote:
To address the Juke had Caedus dead to right's argument before it shows up - no, she didn't. Juke was beating Caedus because of her unpredictable fighting style - a style which Caedus and and likely no one else ever has encountered before:
[mention]Eager as he was to be rid of Luke, Caedus was also suspicious. His uncle had been using a new fighting style, one that he had never taught his students at the Jedi academy-one that he had never, as far as Caedus knew, used on anyone who had survived to describe it. The style was essentially conservative, brutal, and ruthless, designed to deal damage without suffering it-and not all that tricky.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible[/mention] wrote:
With Jaina even noting she specifically wanted training from Boba Fett in skills which Caedus wouldn't know how to counter:
[mention]She didn't react. "Jacen and I are matched in terms of Force strengths. But he's picked up training in Force tech-niques I don't even understand, so my best chance of taking him is to use skills he doesn't have. And I'm pretty sure you never gave him the top ten Mandalorian tips on Jedi busting.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Revelation[/mention] wrote:
Which renders Jaina overwhelming and rag dolling Caedus void:
[quote="But Luke did something even more unexpected, removing one hand from his lightsaber and pushing the palm forward. An instant later, the unseen hammer of a Force blast caught Caedus in the sternum and drove him not over, but through the seats behind him. He slammed into the next row and dropped to the floor foot-to-foot with the big Mandalorian he had killed earlier-the one in the black armor and red helmet. Caedus's head was spinning and his chest was more than aching-it was throbbing, burning, clenching so tightly he could hardly breathe. But he still had his lightsaber-and he needed it. He thumbed the activation switch and brought the weapon up just as Luke's blue blade came slicing down toward him. Caedus caught it on his own crimson blade, then straightened his arm, simultaneously parrying and pointing the dart thrower on his wrist into his attacker's face.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible"][/quote]
Furthermore, the environment hindered Caedus, making it difficult for him to block and parry Jaina's attacks:
[quote="Release!" he commanded. A faint puff of air tickled Caedus's forearm as the thrower launched its darts, but Luke was already whirling out of the way. The slivers streaked past in a harmless black flash and vanished; then Luke was spinning into the row where Caedus lay, positioning himself above Caedus's head for the coup de grace. There was no time to leap up or loose a bolt of Force lightning, and the angle was particularly poor for blocking and parrying. Caedus's only hope lay at his feet, and he seized that hope with the Force, using it to pull the dead Mandalorian up over him, then hurling the corpse headlong into Luke. Two bodies collided with the sharp crack of metal impacting bone. When Caedus did not die in the next instant, he realized he had finally driven his uncle onto the defensive. He rolled to a knee, his lightsaber ignited and raised between them. Luke lay buried beneath the huge Mandalorian, blood pooling around his head and one motionless arm protruding beneath the fellow's side. By all appearances, Luke Skywalker was dead-or at least unconscious.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible"][/quote]
Caedus is then able to outclass Jaina, with the latter even conceding Caedus's powers with the force far eclipsed her own:
- Caedus deactivated his lightsaber and let it drop between them. Jaina felt the beskad begin to bite, then her brother's palm sank deep into the pit of her stomach.[b:2172:
- In the next instant she was riding a bolt of Force lightning across the chamber, her muscles cramping, her teeth grinding, her ears roaring with the fiery sizzle of burning synapses. A full second later, she slammed into a durasteel wall and felt a terrible popping in her ribs, then dropped to the floor, still holding her lightsaber and the beskad. The Force lightning had died away, but her muscles remained useless aching knots, and the stench of scorched flesh was so powerful she wanted to retch. Instead, she tried to rise-and succeeded only in sparking a dozen different kinds of pain. Across the chamber, her brother was in little better shape. He sat slumped in a half-collapsed chair, his remaining hand clamped over the stump of his missing arm, his thigh wound dripping blood onto the floor. His yellow eyes were staring at Jaina more in confusion than rage, and his head was cocked as though he could not quite believe what he was seeing. "You?" he gasped. "Jaina?" Jaina managed to raise her throbbing head. It hurt-a lot-and her vision was starting to blur. "I haven't changed that much, Jacen," she said. With her muscle control beginning to return, she pushed herself into a kneeling position. "And I hope you know how much this Sith nonsense is steaming Mom and Dad." If Caedus heard her wisecrack, he did not show it. His yellow eyes began to dart around the chamber, searching for something Jaina did not understand-but maybe that was just because her head was throbbing so bad. The pain was beginning to muddle her thoughts. Somehow, Caedus forced himself back to his feet. That would have been impressive-if it weren't so kriffing scary. "Where's Luke?" he demanded. "Right behind me," Jaina said, also standing. The effort sent pangs of anguish shooting through her lungs, and she realized she had a few broken ribs to go with the lightning scorch on her chest. She squinted in his direction, trying to keep him in focus so she could kill him. "Come over here, and I'll show you." That brought Caedus's gaze snapping back toward her, and Jaina realized she might have overplayed her hand. She still had both arms,but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own.She tossed the beskad aside and summoned a fallen stormtrooper's power blaster to hand.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible"]
Note that Jaina hadn't lost her Luke amp at that point:
[quote="“She still had both arms, but the fact that her brother remained standing at all proved how much greater his Force powers were than her own. She tossed the beskad aside and summoned a fallen stormtrooper's power blaster to hand. Then Jaina sensed someone watching her from the direction of the antechamber where the Moffs had fled. She looked up to find a pair of gray blurs dropping into firing positions in the doorways. She loosed a burst of suppression fire toward the two troopers, then Force-flipped up into the cover offered by the ruined projection booth, landing backward so she would be facing her enemy and in a position to defend herself. Jaina's boots had not even touched the floor before the stormtroopers opened fire. She dropped the power blaster and used her lightsaber to deflect their bolts, angling them down toward her brother. If she kept him busy enough, he wouldn't be able to hurl another lightning attack her way. His lightsaber snapped to life and began to weave a crimson shield in front of him. Then Jaina experienced an abrupt draining as her Force energies returned to their normal level. Suddenly she felt cold, tired.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible"][/quote]
Solidifying Caedus's comfortable superiority to Luke amped Jaina under normal circumstances. And reinforces Caedus being hindered.
Having established Caedus > Luke amped Jaina, let's see how said version of Jaina compares with normal Luke.
Firstly, Caedus notes in Inferno that he knew what to expect from Luke's fighting abilities.
Now he knew what to expect when Luke discovered who really killed Mara-and when Luke came after him next time, Caedus would be ready.” Source: Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:
Later on Revelation, Caedus fully gains an understanding of Luke's power level, when Luke attacks him in his Starfighter. With Caedus noting how he "got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster" and Luke having "exposed the limits of his power."
[quote="Luke's StealthX nudged him again from behind-how? Caedus couldn't see. Force push? Something metallic inside the fuselage shrieked. He had a sense of someone rummaging furiously in the drives as if looking for a dropped hydrospanner, throwing fragments into the coils. He's ripping the thing apart... Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest.
Luke was the greatest Jedi Master, and he'd just exposed the absolute limits of his powers, a suicidal gamble in any war. No-no, the Force had laid out the evidence for Caedus, and all he had to do was look at it from the right perspective. Caedus truly knew his enemy now. And he knew that Luke's best shot wasn't good enough.”
Source:Legacy of the Force: Revelation"][/quote]
From all this, Caedus should have an accurate gauge of Luke's fighting prowess and power in the force.
And yet Caedus is completely convinced Luke amped Jaina is Luke. Even using his last duel with Luke as a proxy for this one, noting he will have to do better otherwise the outcome would be the same:
[quote="The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute.
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible"][/quote]
With Caedus even considering the idea of it being base Jaina to be ridiculous later on in the novel:
[mention] "There was only one Jedi," Mirta said. "Your sister, Jaina." "My sister?" Caedus roared despite himself. "You expect me to believe that?" He waved the stump of his arm at her."That Jaina did this?"
Source: Legacy of the Force: Invincible[/mention] wrote:
Let's go over what could possibly lead to Caedus believing that normal Jaina is far from the version of Jaina he fought:
Firstly, Luke amping Jaina is not something Caedus wouldn't consider since that's just simple battle meditation which he is obviously well aware of.
And Luke simply giving the illusion of his appearance on Jaina is also something far from alien to Caedus, who does similar illusions many times in the series.
The only differentiating factor is Jaina's power.If it was significantly less than Luke's, then Caedus would certainly at least consider the possibility of Luke just using a standard illusion and battle meditation. Jaina both looked like and had the power of Luke is clearly what confused him.
Throughout the fight Caedus is clearly not under any illusion that who he thinks to be Luke is somehow weaker than usual. Had there been major disparities between Luke and Juke in things like augmentation (which stems from overall force power) it would of been very much apparent.
Yet Caedus is clearly convinced that Jaina is Luke (his comments on Jaina's fighting style also throw the counterargument of Jaina's lack of skill locking her significantly beneath normal Luke out the window. Which firmly establishes Juke ~ LOTF Luke.
>Caedus's fight with Mara isn't usable for how a fair fight between them would go.
>Caedus as of Inferno is still comfortably ahead of either Kyle or Mara.
>Despite this, Caedus is casually dominated by Luke with the force in Inferno, and is later near blitzed by Luke, only surviving due to the environment.
>Yet in Invincible Caedus gives Jaina amped Luke a great fight despite negative circumstances. Even being stated to be far more powerful.
>Said Jaina amped Luke by all accounts is at minimum around LOTF Luke level. Confirming massive growth on Caedus's part.
The outcome is simple. Caedus butchers.
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