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Vaelias
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 8:57 am
^
HeartoftheForce
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:38 pm
Satele stomps.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:45 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:47 pm
Mara deletes her from the existence
HeartoftheForce
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:47 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite

Satele isn’t exhausted from collapsing a one meter high cave.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:49 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite

Satele isn’t exhausted from collapsing a one meter high cave.

but Mara also scales significantly above Satele
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 4:53 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite

Satele isn’t exhausted from collapsing a one meter high cave.

but Mara also scales significantly above Satele

In zero way does she scale above Satele.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 5:49 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite

Satele isn’t exhausted from collapsing a one meter high cave.

but Mara also scales significantly above Satele

In zero way does she scale above Satele.

Well she’s stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron who is comparably powerful to Luke in JA so LOTF Mara is definitely > JA Luke who would definitely be above Satele
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 14th 2021, 7:28 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Satele stomps.

Got any reason for that, id say quite the opposite

Satele isn’t exhausted from collapsing a one meter high cave.

but Mara also scales significantly above Satele

In zero way does she scale above Satele.

Well she’s stated to be more powerful than Kyp Durron who is comparably powerful to Luke in JA so LOTF Mara is definitely > JA Luke who would definitely be above Satele

JA Kyp being comparable to Luke is irrelevant as his insecurity prevents him from fully exercising his power past that point. Mara didn’t surpass him. Kyp declined. Instances like the dovin basal are FoB! occurrences and not indicative of his applicable power. Hence why Mara can be superior to him yet struggle to collapse a cave. 

Mara outright stated she learnt nothing new at Luke’s academy and there’s little to no indication of growth for her past that point. 

Satele wrecks
Vaelias
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 15th 2021, 6:30 am
Regardless of him not using his power he still possesses that power, Luke has also been holding back his power after dark empire hence why he struggled against Dessan, with Mara being confirmed > Kyp and Kyp being ~ Luke, Mara by LOTF will undoubtably be stronger than JA Luke regardless of not learning anything her strength in the force will have most likely grown, even if she didn’t she’d still be on a level with JA Luke who would most likely be more powerful than Satele who is weaker than the Hero in Act I, it’s hard to know how much she would grow by EoO but at best she will have surpassed the top Dark Councilers who are weaker than the Voice who would be locked below Plagueis and TPM Sidious, Luke beat DE Sheev albeit with a bunch of amps and under certain circumstances but im pretty sure he would be above TPM Sheev, and as I say Mara is comparable to JA Luke
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 15th 2021, 8:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Vaelias

Regardless of him not using his power he still possesses that power

But he can't use it. Likewise quotes and such don't take into account FoB! like spikes. Obi-Wan can move faster than Yoda and Palps ever did and output multiple times their power in bursts. Yet his position quotes place him below that point. Likewise Anakin had unlocked power on par with Yoda by AotC, yet is still a 7. Power quotes are based on applicable power unless potential is expressly mentioned. 


Kyp being ~ Luke

Let's see the quotes. It's definitely not referring to JA as Mara is confirmed to be "lightyears" below Kyp and more a rival of Corran. Other than that most of Kyp's quotes refer to potential and being generally powerful. 

At least by FotJ an injured Luke, hindered by a nexus laughed at a being of Kyp's power. 

Mara by LOTF will undoubtably be stronger than JA Luke regardless of not learning anything her strength in the force will have most likely grown, even if she didn’t she’d still be on a level with JA Luke

There is F all to indicate that Mara even surpassed Vader. Let alone JA Luke. Even when Kyp was being taught by Kun and was "lightyears" ahead of Mara Luke considered that he might become another Vader. Present hard evidence of Mara growing.
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 15th 2021, 8:54 am
Satele Shan.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 15th 2021, 9:55 am
Let's see the quotes. It's definitely not referring to JA as Mara is confirmed to be "lightyears" below Kyp and more a rival of Corran. Other than that most of Kyp's quotes refer to potential and being generally powerful.

At least by FotJ an injured Luke, hindered by a nexus laughed at a being of Kyp's power.

As you say Kyp declined after this so that could be in reference to Kyps current power in FOTJ, even if not FOTJ Luke would definitely be much more powerful than Kyp anyway, even if JA Kyp = JA Luke, FOTJ Luke would probably laugh at JA Luke's power he grows much more powerful between those times, anyway here is one quote, i believe there are a couple more aswel

Jedi Academy Vol 2 wrote:In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was ...

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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 15th 2021, 4:03 pm
@Vaelias wrote:
Let's see the quotes. It's definitely not referring to JA as Mara is confirmed to be "lightyears" below Kyp and more a rival of Corran. Other than that most of Kyp's quotes refer to potential and being generally powerful.

At least by FotJ an injured Luke, hindered by a nexus laughed at a being of Kyp's power.

As you say Kyp declined after this so that could be in reference to Kyps current power in FOTJ, even if not FOTJ Luke would definitely be much more powerful than Kyp anyway, even if JA Kyp = JA Luke, FOTJ Luke would probably laugh at JA Luke's power he grows much more powerful between those times, anyway here is one quote, i believe there are a couple more aswel

Jedi Academy Vol 2 wrote:In the temples of a long-gone people, the spirit of Exar Kun, the most powerful Dark Lord of the Sith, lives, whose teachings once led Darth Vader to the side of evil. Luke must watch helplessly as some of his students succumb to the whisperings of Exar Kun. Above all, the young Kyp Durron, who is utterly devoured by hatred for the Empire, is only too willing to follow the temptations of the forbidden Sith teachings. Without realizing, he is more and more dedicated to the dark side of power. Soon he's more powerful than Luke and threatens to become an even more dangerous opponent than Darth Vader once was ...


That's a blurb. The lowest form of citation you can find. It's also a translation from German, so it's likely even lower due to the language barrier.

Try again.
Vaelias
Vaelias

Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 8:42 am
“But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.”
-Agents of Chaos 1

It’s worth mentioning that Kyp was less exhausted than Luke after the Dovin Basal feat and considered himself more powerful

“Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.”
-Rebel Dream

I think it’s certain that in early NJO Kyp is at least on a Level with Luke
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 11:13 am
@Vaelias

“But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.”
-Agents of Chaos 1

PoV of some fodder knight that's contradicted by OoU sources. Dismissed. 


It’s worth mentioning that Kyp was less exhausted than Luke after the Dovin Basal feat and considered himself more powerful 


The author of the novel has actually spoken on this matter



"One of the things is tough is that a lot of the readers of fantasy are very young. The concept of an unreliable narrator just doesn't register," offered Cunningham. "If somebody says something, they assume that it's the truth."

Allston was then deluged by questions about who would win in a fight, Luke vs. Kyp. "When people ask me do I think if Luke is stronger than Kyp, I refer them to the databank on starwars.com. Because that has the ultimate answer. If I answered it, I would providing a secondary source for an answer that doesn't require it. In competitions or combat, we don't think in terms of comparing numbers and rolling dice, even though many of us are roleplaying game writers. We think, 'What does the complete scene serve in the story?' and that pretty much dictates the course of the story."


Star Wars: Expanded Universe | Q & A with Star Wars Authors


And this is what Allston was referring to (the link is included in the interview):

Following the peace treaty that brought a formal end to the Galactic Civil War, Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker wed on Coruscant. For a galaxy undergoing seismic political change, the two represented an inspiring ideal and a powerful symbol. A former Imperial agent and the galaxy's most powerful Jedi Master had found a way beyond their past differences to find love.

Star Wars: Databank | Skywalker, Mara Jade


Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

Star Wars: Databank | Solo, Anakin

As for Luke supposedly struggling more with the Dovin this is handily explained as well. Here Luke explains why some tasks can be exerting even if he isn't tapping into his full power:

Spoiler:
Luke worked moisture into a suddenly dry mouth as he watched Builder With Vines finish his snack and swoop down for another pass. Why in the name of the Force was he taking such a terrible risk?

And it was a terrible risk. Luke could feel the danger involved, his Jedi senses tingling almost as strongly as if the threat had been aimed directly at him. Surely Builder With Vines couldn’t be that hungry. Could he?

“Offhand, I’d say he’s showing off,” Mara muttered, answering his silent question.

“For who? Us?”

“Hardly.” Mara nodded toward the wall behind Luke. “For the kid.”

Luke craned his neck to look. Balanced precariously on a stone near the Qom Jha opening, Child Of Winds was watching in utter fascination as Builder With Vines swooped over the mass of insects, his wings quivering with excitement or nervousness or envy. “Uh-oh,” Luke said. “You don’t think—?”

“I would hope he’s not that stupid,” Mara said. “But the Qom Jha have been riding him ever since we headed out on this little trip. He just might.”

Luke grimaced. “Child Of Winds, you stay where you are,” he ordered, putting Jedi firmness into his voice. “You’re not to try to do what Builder With Vines is—”

And suddenly, a terrified shriek screamed through his mind. “What—?” he gasped, his body twitching violently with the shock of the sound.

“It’s Builder With Vines,” Mara bit out, her fingers tightening around Luke’s to help maintain their balance. Luke looked down—

To a horrifying sight. Builder With Vines, his wings flapping frantically but uselessly, was struggling half-submerged in the living river flowing through the passageway. Dozens of fire creepers were already crawling across his head and wings, biting and stinging. Even as Child of Winds’s terrified cry joined Builder With Vines’s scream in Luke’s mind a hundred more of the insects crawled onto the Qom Jha, their weight forcing him still deeper beneath the flow.

There was no time to waste. Stretching out with the Force, Luke hauled Builder With Vines up and out of the flow, holding him suspended in midair. He shifted his focus to the insects, grabbing them through the Force and throwing them off him.

“Don’t bother,” Mara said quietly. “There’s nothing you can do.”

Luke bit back the reflexive impulse to deny it. He was a Jedi—there had to be something he could do.

But no. She was right … and as Builder With Vines’s mental scream died into the silence of death he let the body sink gently back into the mindless flow.

“Easy on the fingers,” Mara said softly.

With an effort, Luke turned his gaze back to her, focusing on their joined hands. His fingers were all but white where he was squeezing hers tightly in frustration. “Sorry,” he muttered, forcing himself to relax his grip.

“That’s all right,” she said. “You know, you’ve got a pretty good grip there. I thought you Jedi usually concentrated more on the mental aspects of the Force than you did in keeping in shape.”

She was trying to deflect his attention, he knew, trying to turn his thoughts away from the horror he’d just witnessed. Sympathy from Mara was a new experience all by itself; but neither words nor sympathy had a puddle’s chance of smoothing over the guilt and anger rising in his throat like a twisting sand-devil. “It’s not all right,” he snapped back at her. “I knew it was dangerous—I could have stopped him. I should have stopped him.”

“How?” Mara countered. “I mean, sure, you could have used the Force to pin him to the ceiling. But what right would you have had to do something like that?”

“What do you mean, what right?” Luke bit out. “I was the one in charge here. Their safety was my responsibility.”

“Oh, come on,” Mara said, the sympathy still there but with a tinge of scorn around the edges now. “Builder With Vines was an intelligent, responsible adult being. He knew what he was doing. He made his choice, and he suffered the consequences. If you want to start feeling guilty about mistakes, start with ones that were actually your fault.”

“Such as?” Luke growled.

For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. “Such as?” Mara repeated. “Well, let’s see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister’s children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?”

Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. “You’re right,” he sighed. “You’re absolutely right. I don’t know, Mara. It’s been … I don’t know.”

“Let me guess,” she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. “Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You’ve had trouble understanding what you’re supposed to do, or how you’re supposed to behave. You’ve been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you’ve been paralyzed with fear that you’re going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?”

Luke stared at her. “Yes,” he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? “That’s it exactly.”

“And yet,” she continued, “sometime in the past couple of months, things have suddenly become clearer. Not that you’ve had any great lightning-bolt insights, but a lot of the hesitation has disappeared and you’ve found it easier to stay on what seems in hindsight to have been the right path.”

“Right again,” Luke said. “Though there have also been one or two pretty impressive revelations,” he added, thinking back. “The vision on Tierfon that got me in touch with Karrde just in time to hear about you being trapped here, for one.” He eyed her closely. “You know what’s been going on?”

“Yes, it’s been only slightly more visible than blindingly obvious,” she said dryly. “Certainly to me. Probably to Leia and Corran and some of your other Jedi students, too. Possibly to everyone else in the New Republic.”

“Oh, thank you,” Luke said, trying to match her tone and not entirely succeeding. “That makes me feel so much better.”

“Good. It was supposed to.” Mara took a deep breath, and Luke could sense her reluctance. “Look, you’re the one in the middle of this. You’re the one who has to make the final call on what’s going on. But if you want my reading, it all started with that little jaunt you took out to Byss about nine years ago. Where you faced—whatever it was you faced out there.”

Luke shivered. “The reborn Emperor.”

“Or whatever,” Mara said with an odd touch of impatience. “Personally, I’m not convinced it was really him. But that’s beside the point. The point was that you decided—stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion—that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques.”

“But I didn’t really go over to the dark side,” Luke protested, trying to remember those dark days. “I mean, I don’t think I did.”

Mara shook her head. “Debatable; but it almost doesn’t matter. One way or the other, you still willingly dabbled in it. And from that point on, it colored everything you did.”

One of Master Yoda’s pronouncements floated up from his memory. If once you start down the dark path, his old teacher had warned, forever will it dominate your destiny. “It did, too, didn’t it?” he murmured, half to himself, as all the errors and mistakes and, yes, the arrogance of the past nine years rose accusingly before his eyes. “What was I thinking?”

“You weren’t thinking,” Mara said, an odd mixture of impatience and compassion swirling together in her voice and emotions. “You were reacting, trying to save everyone and do everything. And in the process you came within a split blaster bolt of destroying yourself.”

“So what changed?” he asked. “What happened?”

Mara’s eyes narrowed fractionally. “You telling me you don’t know?”

Luke grimaced, wondering that he hadn’t seen it earlier. That critical moment off Iphigin, as he and Han had prepared for combat against the pirate gang Han had deduced was on its way. The moment when he’d seen the vision of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun laughing at him … “No, I know,” he conceded. “I made a decision to stop using the power of the Force so much.”

And suddenly, through that mixture of compassion and impatience came a wave of something completely unexpected. An overpowering flood of relief. “You got it,” Mara said quietly. “Finally.”

Luke shook his head. “But why?” he demanded. “The power’s obviously there, available for a Jedi to use. Is it just because I touched the dark side that using it is so bad for me?”

“That’s probably part of it,” Mara said. “But even if you’d never done that you’d still have run into trouble. You ever been in a hullplate-shaping plant?”

“Ah—no,” Luke said, blinking at the sudden change of topic.

“How about an ore-crushing facility?” she suggested. “Lando’s had a couple of them at one time or another—you must have visited at least one of them.”

“I’ve seen the one on Varn, yes,” Luke said, the mention of Lando’s name throwing a sudden damper on the cautiously growing feeling of excitement at these new revelations. Mara’s relationship with Lando …

“Fine,” Mara said, either missing the change in Luke’s emotions or else ignoring it. “Sometimes small songbirds set up their nests in the upper supports of those buildings. Did you hear any of them singing when you were there?”

Luke smiled tightly. Again, it was so obvious. “Of course not,” he said. “It was way too noisy in there to hear anything that quiet.”

Mara smiled back. “Pretty obvious, isn’t it, once you see it. The Force isn’t just about power, like most non-Jedi think. It’s also about guidance: everything from those impressive future visions to the more subtle real-time warnings I sometimes think of as a danger sense. Trouble is, the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity.”

“Yes,” Luke murmured, so many puzzles suddenly coming clear. He had often wondered how it was he could rebuild Darth Vader’s personal fortress while Master Yoda had become winded doing something as relatively simple as lifting an X-wing from the Dagobah swamp. Clearly, Yoda had understood the choices far better than his upstart pupil.

And even in the short time since Luke had decided to try that same choice he’d already seen glimpses of why Yoda had chosen that path. Subtle bits of guidance, sometimes occurring as little more than vague and almost subconscious feelings, had been showing up more and more: protecting him from a quick capture back at the Cavrilhu Pirates’ asteroid base, or quietly prompting him to accept Child Of Winds’s assistance, which had led directly to this cavern and the pride-motivated aid of the Qom Jha. “I was on Iphigin a couple of months ago helping Han with some negotiations,” he said. “The Diamala at the talks told Han that Jedi who used as much power as I did always ended up slipping over to the dark side.”

“They may be right,” Mara agreed. “Not all Dark Jedi come from botched training, you know. Some of them slip into it all by themselves.”

“Not a very pleasant thought,” Luke said soberly, thinking about his Yavin academy. Of his successes at Jedi instruction there, and his failures. “Especially given that I started teaching under dark side influence.”


Vision of the Future



So hard no on both counts. Luke is confirmed >>>>> Mara and Mara is confirmed > Kyp. Hell Kyp is confirmed to be weaker than Anakin Solo. 
Vaelias
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 11:30 am
Thanks for the Author quote I was not aware of that

But my argument was never Kyp > Luke I’m just saying Kyp is around Luke’s level in the early NJO albeit probably weaker but they are in the same league let’s just say

Being weaker than Anakin Solo shouldn’t hold him down, Anakin Solo is not to be underestimated he is just that good that his is above Kyp. Basically Kyp shouldn’t be kept down because he is lower and Mara and Anakin Solo but they should just go above him and he is compared to early NJO Luke on multiple occasions or as I say at least in the same league, as you said it would refer to applicable power, and we do know what Luke has been holding back a bit since Dark Empire, so albeit he might be on a similar level to this ‘Holding back Luke’ but he would be above Shan
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 8:22 pm
@Vaelias


But my argument was never Kyp > Luke I’m just saying Kyp is around Luke’s level in the early NJO albeit probably weaker but they are in the same league let’s just say

There's nothing to indicate they're in the same league. 


Basically Kyp shouldn’t be kept down because he is lower and Mara and Anakin Solo

Yes he absolutely should. As Mara and Anakin struggle with feats that even RotJ (forget JA) Luke would find effortless. It's blatently obvious that he is simply not at the level you are trying to put him at and neither is Mara by extension. Mara actually does have formidable scaling to her name. Why are you stuck on the dead end of NJO?


he is compared to early NJO Luke on multiple occasions or as I say at least in the same league

Not by any sources of actual authority. If he had you would have presented them.
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 10:44 pm
Mara tbf
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 16th 2021, 11:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
4 things here.

Mara wasn't "exhausted" from the simple act of bringing down the cave. She was breathless because she overexerted herself to smash an unsuspecting Caedus. She had already brought it on the verge of collapse with a force shake and actually had to stop it from collapsing.

So he wouldn't oblige her by revealing his physical position in the Force. Fine. She spotted a rusty metal sheet about half a meter wide and laid it carefully across the tunnel floor, propped on stones so he'd tread on it and give her an audible warning when he reached that point. An intense Force shake of the brickwork and arches in front of and behind the metal plate weakened them, and then she stopped them from collapsing by Force pressure.

She could have collapsed the tunnel already without "exhaustion" but she applied more power to keep it up. It wasn't just in the act of collapse, it was in the exertion she used to drop all the weight on him.

The rumbling began. She brought down both sections of tunnel, before and behind, with a massive exertion in the Force that made her breathless. She didn't hear him call out. Even in the damp conditions, clouds of fine debris filled the air and made her choke.

And breathless isn't exhaustion either. It's blowing all your air out to throw a ton of effort into something OR gasping for breath. You can be breathless throwing a ball too hard. The proper way to punch is to expel air with every punch. Pushing below your max too hard, etc.

You can take a huge breath kicking Savage too hard and drop to your knees too:
https://streamable.com/lvll2q

Sheev exhausted I guess by someone he dwarfs.

Considering Mara then choked on debris, got slammed by a big force blast, and all the debris she just dropped and kept getting blasted against the wall and showed no signs of slowing down, her chance of being exhausted while gasping for air before the fight even began is unlikely. Why we choose to consider the more extreme meaning without looking at the context is beyond me. Caedus on the other hand was described as getting worn down. Mara wasn't which is weird if she started off "exhausted." Exhausted and then inhaling a bunch of debris and then getting slammed repeatedly against walls. It can lead her to need to take a huge breath, but there's no evidence she was exhausted from the collapse.

If you put everything you have into throwing a pillow, that doesn't mean that the pillow was too heavy for you to lift without heavy exertion. If you're aware that the weight of the cave you collapsed on Caedus shouldn't cause serious injury when you could have caused a cave-in with vastly less effort - that you stopped - then you're likely going to put more effort into it than the minimum amount.

We see the same thing with Starkiller when he exhausts himself more than ever before from one big Force Repulse. It wasn't the resistance of the Clones that exhausted him, it was how much power he put behind it.

We also see it with this real quote from Vehicle Fact File, where the guy who found it realized that Dooku could completely exhaust himself by launching a 170 pound Kenobi like a missile.  Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan 2960029119
Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Lol10



Essentially you can put more effort into something than the bare minimum requirement, and it doesn't have to be a bad feat limiting an entire era.



===

2nd thing is it was in no way portrayed as a Flash of Brilliance lol. Kyp was completely confident he could accomplish the feat and was proven correct in every aspect except maybe being stronger than Luke. He wasn't accessing some hidden reserve of power locked away, he knew he could do it, he knew how to do it, and he wasn't surprised when he did it. All the author backtracked on was Kyp being stronger than Luke. He didn't delve into a comparison between Starkiller and Anakin's attributed Flashes, he just said he wasn't stronger than Luke regardless of doing the feat. What a weird way to handwave a feat away though.

Second, Anakin and Tahiri together were tossing around trees that their average size dwarves our planet's tallest trees by almost double in height. Imagine the diameter more than doubles too. They were tossing these trees as fast as a speeder and they kept uprooting them from the ground and tossing more. Ikrit kept admitting Anakin alone was more powerful than him and Ikrit was ragdolling a corvette and a freighter while deflecting blasts.

Luceno had Mace state he, Kit, Shaak, and Allie wouldn't be able to support 24 train cars and would need Yoda... perhaps 5 Yodas to do it. Essentially saying it would require 6 times the combined effort of the 4 Jedi to merely support something far thinner but a bit longer than trees Anakin/Tahiri were uprooting and tossing 500 kilometers per hour multiple times.

And that's not even a low feat to judge the full era like you're doing either. Mace, Kit, Shaak, and Allie SUPPORTING the train would still be a rather impressive feat, they just couldn't come close to it.

There are good feats in every era, and Anakin wasn't portrayed as weak. That's not to say his feat is better than Kyps of course, but it's still really good in any era. For an exercise in imagination, imagine when Sheev was throwing those pods at Yoda in the Senate fight that they were actually 140-170 meter trees on average that were thicker than this, and were traveling 500mph. And they were getting uprooted everytime.





Anakin above Kyp, don't know what that solves. Anakin above "Flash of Brilliance" Kyp too? Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan 2960029119

---


As for Kyp declining or not being to access his prior power, he said he was no weaker, and that his Jedi training would prevent him from using his powers to retrieve something to destroy Star Systems. There's no actual stop to his powers, as indicated by this thread discussing his best feat from 16 years after he renounced the Darkside, he was just trying to say the Jedi were infallible and capable of doing no evil. But that's not a stop on the actual amount of raw power he can bring for a light side feat regardless of the meaning. If you believed this you wouldn't have used the Luke quote where his Darkside actually hindered him while excusing it for Kyp.

I discuss it more here:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t1435-kyp-durron-vs-kueller#58546

@Quorian Debatist wrote:In the full context of the quote, they're trying to dissuade the government from turning Jacen into a Jedi Master. Luke says it's not a lack of power or skill, but rather a lack of mastery and emotions. Kyp then lies because they somehow overheard his private talks and basically states that although he's no weaker, his Jedi understanding would disallow him to retrieve a weapon to specifically kill star systems and murder his own brother accidentally. That Jacen lacks that inner voice that comes with a true emotional maturity that would stop him from doing rash moves and decisions. Basically saying that Kyp has a limitation on his Jedi powers that keep him from ever doing bad again, that makes him a true paragon of the Force, and he's explaining why that's different from power or skill.

It's not that he can't fully wield his power and is therefore out of his prime, it's that he can't use his powers for bad anymore. It's a built-in failsafe that Jacen lacks... which was proven correct.

Exile:
Chief Omas's voice was as controlled as ever, his manner as persuasive, but through the Force, Luke could sense that the man had no personal investment in this argument. Clearly, he had to be making this proposal at the request of others, perhaps repaying some favor owed to another politician, to one of Jacen's patrons. Luke took a quick look at Admiral Niathal, the highest-placed Galactic Alliance politician who was also a keen supporter of Jacen, but the Mon Cal was under control, offering no emotions for him to detect.

"Well, there's a problem." Luke glanced at his fellow Jedi. Mara was stone-faced, offering no expression for the politicians to read, though Luke could feel, through the Force-link that helped bind them together, her irritation with Omas. Kyp was slouched back in his chair, smiling faintly, and Luke thought he could detect that Kyp was enjoying himself hugely. "In my estimation, Jacen still lacks the emotional maturity he needs to be a Master."

Chief Omas gave him a doubtful look. "Many Jedi, in both the Old Republic and the modern era, became Masters at his age or younger."

Luke shrugged. "It's not a question of age."

"And," Omas continued, "he has demonstrated that he possesses skills and power that not even most confirmed Masters can match."

Mara sighed and finally leaned in to join the conversation. "It's not a matter of power, either. If power were the criterion you think it is, then any eight-year-old with a thermal detonator would be qualified to teach at the university level. Right?"

Opposite her, Admiral Niathal also leaned in, as if positioning herself like a Mon Cal cruiser to counter the Star Destroyer that Mara represented. She spoke in the gravelly tones common to Mon Calamari. "Perhaps power, age, and wisdom are not the only considerations here." Her bulbous eyes whipped around to focus on Mara and then Luke in turn. "If Jacen is a master of the Guard and a Master among the Jedi, it blurs the lines between those who have sworn to obey the government and those who merely acknowledge a vague duty and responsibility to the government. A distressing loss of personal authority for the Grand Master of the Jedi order. Not so?"

Luke let a little frost creep into his voice. "The duty I've acknowledged for forty years is anything but vague."

Niathal nodded. "Precisely. And so you have nothing to fear."

"And that's not the issue." Luke gave the admiral a small frown-a message that her effort to lead the conversation from the realm of logic into the realm of defensiveness would not succeed. "Jacen is not ready. He's making too many unfortunate choices. He needs guidance and is refusing to seek it."

"From you. I find that he is very receptive to my guidance."

Luke didn't answer. He let the silence between them stretch into long seconds.

Finally Niathal swiveled to look at Kyp. "Master Durron, I have it on good authority that you advocate elevating Jacen Solo to the rank of Master."

The purpose for Kyp's presence finally clicked for Luke. Months before, at a meeting of the Jedi Council, Kyp had proposed elevating Jacen to their rank. Obviously, word of that had somehow leaked out from those Council Chambers and reached the ears and tympanic membranes of Omas and Niathal, and Kyp had been brought in to reinforce their argument.

Kyp appeared startled, but Luke detected no genuine emotion of surprise from him. "I beg your pardon?"

Niathal stared at him. "You did propose that Jacen Solo be elevated."

Kyp nodded, a little uncertain. "In a manner of speaking."

Suspicion crept into Niathal's voice. "What manner?"

Kyp continued to look uncomfortable. "Well, clearly you're unfamiliar with the role of the taras-chi in Jedi Council debates."

"The taras..."

"...chi. Yes. A sort of ritualized debate opponent." Kyp glanced at Luke and Mara as if for confirmation. "In certain Jedi traditions, any discussion group, or its moderator, elects a taras-chi. The purpose of the taras-chi is to float ideas that run counter to the prevailing wisdom. This is so that all ideas will be tested ... sometimes to destruction. The idea that the taras-chi promotes is not the one being tested-the idea he promotes tests the idea currently under discussion. It's like a larva that only eats dead flesh. Place it on a wound, and it will only devour that which cannot survive anyway. Live flesh, like a solid idea or valid reasoning, will not be harmed by it." Kyp thought for a moment. "I suppose that the closest equivalents you have in the world of government would be court jesters or the free press."

Chief Omas and Admiral Niathal exchanged a look. Omas appeared mildly confused; Niathal's posture suggested she was irritated.

Omas cleared his throat. "I fail to see..."

"The discussion at that meeting," Kyp continued, "was about Jacen Solo's activities and whether they were appropriate for a Jedi. So in the spirit of the taras-chi, I not only spoke out in uncritical support of them, I proposed giving him the most lavish reward the Jedi can bestow. As a test of the principal item of discussion."

There was now a little chill in Niathal's voice. "So you're saying that you never supported Jacen Solo's elevation."

Kyp gave her a quizzical look. "I support the decisions of the Master of the order, Admiral. And let me give you a little example of how power and skill with the Jedi arts do not correspond to mastery.

"When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled ... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

Chief Omas and Niathal exchanged another look. Omas's face was serene, but it was clear from Niathal's body language that this portion of the meeting had not gone the way she'd wanted it to.

Omas tried again, catching Luke's eye. "Master Durron's story just goes to reinforce my point. He lacked the experience he needed-experience that would have compelled him to seek the advice of others. But Colonel Solo doesn't lack that experience. He comes to us for guidance. Please, Master Skywalker, don't mistake any anger you might feel that he hasn't consulted enough with you for suspicion about his wisdom and readiness."

Luke smiled, suddenly cheerful. "All right, I won't." As Niathal straightened, expectant, Luke added, "I'll continue to evaluate Jacen's progress as a Jedi, and the instant I find him to be ready for the rank of Master, you'll be the first one I inform."

"Ah." Omas sat back, but maintained a mask of polite cheer. "Please du."

Luke rose and nodded. "Thank you for seeing us. If there's nothing more, I don't want to take up more of your time."

"No, that was all." There was mock good humor in Omas's voice. "Thank you."

The Jedi were silent on the walk out of the office, on the turbolift down to the building's hangar level, and until Kyp's speeder carried them out of the Senate Building.

Mara broke the silence. "What is a taras-chi?"

Kyp smiled, showing teeth. "A bug in the mines of Kessel," he said. "Six legs under a hard round carapace about three centimeters in diameter. Properly roasted, they only tasted a little awful. When you could catch them, they offered a little nutrition, helped you starve more slowly."

Luke looked thoughtful. "Thanks for supporting me back there. Why'd you do it?"

"Luke..." Kyp stopped, shook his head. "No. Master Skywalker. I do think Jacen should be a Master, or I wouldn't have brought up the point at that meeting. But I'm all for showing solidarity, a united Jedi order, when this sort of thing happens. When cracks open and politicians get their fingers in them, bad things happen. Empires are formed. Also, I'm more than a little annoyed that they brought up my suggestion from that meeting-how did they find out, anyway?" He frowned. "Loose talk between Masters and apprentices around the Temple, probably."

"Probably," Mara said, but Luke could feel a trace of suspicion growing within her-as it was within him. Even if Kyp's opinions had been overheard in the halls of the Temple, someone, some Jedi, had to have passed them on to the government. Perhaps Jacen had done so himself.

Luke steered away from that line of thought, and from the even more distressing possibility that it had been Ben who had leaked the information.



That's assuming we even believe Kyp in the first place. He's basically portraying a Jedi Master as infallible which we know they're not. But it doesn't matter, it's not a ceiling on his power.


If we ignore the context of how he accomplished the initial feat like Kyp does, then he's basically saying he's no less powerful than Kyp on the Yavin focusing pyramids and getting amped by Kun. He then is powerful enough to rip a ship out of the gravity of a gas giant's core - which is absolutely immense forces that nothing in the Republic could enter - from hundreds of thousands of miles away. The only thing stopping him is the understanding that he's going to use it to murder millions of the remnants of the Empire, not actual power.

The only thing that changes with the real context, is that he would lack the focus to drive a ship out of a gas giant's core that he was going to use to immediately exterminate the Empire with. He would still be putting himself no less powerful than a severely amped younger Kyp (and vastly more skilled), just that he couldn't focus on driving it out due to his Darkside purposes.

Dark Apprentice wrote:Size matters not, Master Skywalker had repeated. Kyp engulfed the Sun Crusher with his mind, surrounding it, touching it with his limitless, invisible hands. He thought about heaving it back up, dragging the Sun Crusher out of the depths of Yavin. But he discarded that thought.

Instead, with the assistance of Exar Kun, he used his innate skill to power up the controls again, to move control levers, push buttons to alter the course stored in the Sun Crusher's memory, bringing it out of its entombment.

Kyp continued to watch the weapon's progress, focusing on the sphere of the enormous planet as it crested the misty treetops. The Sun Crusher appeared as a silvery dot, seeming no larger than an atom as it emerged from the highest cloud layers and streaked across space toward the emerald-green moon where Kyp waited.

He stared upward and waited, opening his arms to receive the indestructible weapon.

The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful.

The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon's atmosphere, straight down--like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.

As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.

"Thank you, Exar Kun," Kyp whispered.



He's powerful enough to do it still, but his conscious would stop him from moving levers to drive the ship out and destroy stars. Is that really a limitation on his powers in the heat of battle when the original feat was tied to his innate skill; of which he far surpasses?

Unless Kyp has to retrieve super weapons to murder stars, then I don't see why this quote is being used to kneecap later Kyps. If anything all it does is give him all his amped feats besides a refusal to use the Darkside.


---

And four, Mara would have been a better student than Kyp because of course, she would be! She is better trained with all the fundamentals down already. Luke's best teacher was also Tionne and then Cilghal all throughout his Academy. Because the best student is not interchangeable with power. When it comes to power, only Kyp - whose presence was compared to Yodas - Dolph, Brakiss, and a couple of others stood out. Luke wasn't looking for "turbolasers" though, he was looking for the ideal Jedi. Mara is very good at saber fighting and staying in a fight but her raw power is not at Kyp's level, and I don't think you need to make up a bunch of random stuff to reconcile this either. We see this comparison play out in her fight against Caedus where she admits and the author does as well that Caedus dwarves her in force mastery and power, but the way she was fighting (coupled with cheapshots and Darthant66 style tendon snaps) allowed her to keep relentlessly attacking with sabers. Caedus then gets much better at everything after Lumiya dies but still.

Mara is excellent at sabers that make up for a deficiency in raw power, but we don't know where her actual raw power caps off at, and I don't think it matters for anyone below her own Council either unless they're just tossing stuff in the Force Olympics like when Tiin was beating Mace by 1/4 of what Mace could do.
KingKopecz
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 17th 2021, 4:14 am
After Mara's antifeat debunk she should win this.
Vaelias
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 17th 2021, 7:47 am
Very well put
Praxis
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 21st 2021, 9:40 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 22nd 2021, 12:40 am
Mara is a hotter so she wins
DarthAnt66
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Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan Empty Re: Mara Jade Skywalker vs Satele Shan

January 22nd 2021, 3:22 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Mara is a hotter so she wins
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