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Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)

June 2nd 2021, 7:27 pm

SUSPECT SHOWDOWN 

Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias) 



SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Vaelia10

Standard Rules, you know the score 


Three posts a side and a conclusion post
No Word count 

Darth Caedus as of Star Wars: Legacy of the Force - Invincible 
Anakin Skywalker as of Star Wars: Episode III Revenge of the Sith


Last edited by Vaelias on June 17th 2021, 2:30 pm; edited 2 times in total
Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty In Favor of Anakin Skywalker.

June 14th 2021, 11:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Kneel before the unquenchable might of... Anakin Skywalker, The Chosen One, The Son of Suns, and Unlimited Power

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Anakin14

"You were dead when I walked in the room"

Here is some music to listen to:


Grandfather vs Grandson, in this thread I will be elaborating on the unquestionable might and supremacy of Anakin Skywalker, the most powerful man that has ever lived, there is a lot of scaling I shall go into, and I aim to cover it all In this post, so to kick things off lets establish Anakin's placement as the most powerful Jedi in Galactic History

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Kn_igh10
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Most_p10
Obi-Wan, Star Wars Labyrinth of Evil wrote:”Clearly Anakin was as strong in the Force as any Jedi who had ever sat on the Council. But as Obi-Wan had told him time and again, the essence of being a Jedi didn't hinge on attaining mastery of the Force, but on attaining mastery over oneself."

Agen Kolar, Star Wars Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:”And even if the prophecy has been misread. Anakin is the one Jedi we can best hope would survive an encounter with a Sith Lord."

The Making of Star Wars Revenge of the Sith wrote:”Gillard also reports that the duel will explain how Obi-Wan is able to defeat his protege, even though Anakin has been established as the most powerful Jedi who ever lived. "Obi-Wan taught Anakin and Anakin has gone past him," he notes. "But when you get to that duel, it's emotional. That's where the mistake will be made. And if you know the characters, you know Obi-Wan isn't going to get emotional and he doesn't make mistakes."
Id like to point out that this last quote is effectively G-Canon, The highest form of canon that is not bound by any OOU dating, Gillard worked closely with Lucas in the Making of the Prequels and the two developed a set of tiers together for the characters of Revenge of the Sith, Lucas' involvement in the tier system labels it official G-Canon.

Homing Beacon Article 2005 - TheForce.net wrote:"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels."

(Nick Gillard, ROTS DVD commentary) wrote:Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous.
Note that Gillard muses the above quote during the Making of Revenge of the Sith, Anakin being the most powerful Jedi to ever live was obviously an affirmed stance for Anakin's ranking backed by Lucas and simply conveyed through Gillard, which is backed up by the tier system labeling Anakin as a Level 9 along with Yoda and Sidious and then later a 9 with Yoda and Sidious being an 8, Gillard being a key member of the movie production department at the time of making this comment also allows for Gillard's word on its own to stand as G-Canon

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  G_cano13

Nick Gillard - 2005 Press Tour wrote:"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps

nothing changes here, this is merely a 'scaled down' version of the same tier system, so simply has Anakin as a full tier above Yoda and Sidious, we can speculate the difference here is that Anakin is a 9 on Mustafar while operating on a level below his state of extreme focus and perfection as we see Anakin operating in vs Dooku and then later during Operation Knightfall, it is these moments that Gillard is referring to when he notes Anakin as a Tier above everyone else, essentially a Tier 10, the level Anakin is at is so great that during the moments where Anakin is operating at this level he is fighting at a level of combative ability that 'doesn't even exist' this of course being all affirmed by Lucas himself. Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever, aside from being affirmed in Gillard's statement, is clearly the intent for the movie which of course is G-Canon also.

...


Last edited by Vaelias on June 14th 2021, 12:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty TIER THEORY

June 14th 2021, 11:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Tier Theory is the idea that the Gillard Tier System is spanning the whole mythos and not just the films, given Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever is established in G-Canon and the highest possible level of combat ability that exists noted to be a level 9 with Anakin somehow operating above that, because he is well... The Chosen One. This also makes sense narratively when taking into account what would actually be written into lore, for example if an author were to write a novel that contained a clash between Grand Master Luke Skywalker and Yoda, a battle involving 2 absolute master peak conventional duelists would almost certainly be an epic battle of the ages and not a straight one shot on Luke's part as some may claim. Level 9 being the cap for overall combative ability is also made to look very likely by Luke's many encounters throughout NJO with opponents that he should casually one shot, Now we know that Luke likes to hold back his power, but that does not account for everything, and frankly the Tier Theory avoids a lot of mental gymnastics surrounding many of Luke's engagements, 'Luke was fatigued from his last fight so fell 12 tiers' he should be just simply, infinitely superior in every way, speed and strength should be lightyears ahead of some of his opponents, but that is not at all what is made evident in the material, one example would be his duel with Ivaar Workan in Fate of the Jedi where Luke is not noted to be 'Holding back' and the fight is even regarded by Vestara as being relatively well matched and the implication that Luke himself was even exerting himself in the duel.

Fate of the Jedi wrote:Seha and Doran were just rushing through the breach, angling toward the last guard, while Luke and Workan had already joined battle in a whirling tempest of color and smashed office furnishings.With only three Sith left, there was no question of the final outcome-even a High Lord could not overcome those odds, not when Luke and Ben Skywalker were on the other side.

Vestara sprang to the attack, swinging high to prevent the guard from leaping into a Force tumble. He blocked and spun, bringing his blade around in time to deflect a leg slash from Ben, then glanced toward a display table near the wall. Guessing that a glass sculpture would already be flying toward her head, Vestara dived into a forward roll, then locked her lightsaber into the ON position and tossed it at her attacker's legs.

The guard dropped his own blade to deflect the one flying toward his thighs-then simply divided along the spine as Ben's lightsaber cleaved him from collar to belt. The body did not fall so much as peel apart, and the sculpture crashed to the floor three meters away.

Vestara called her own weapon back into her hand and then looked up to find Ben stepping across the body toward her.

"So," she said, glancing down at the dead Sith. "I guess you do care."

"Of course I care." Ben smiled and reached down to take her hand. "Good teammates are hard to find."

"And you two certainly make a good team," Doran Tainer said, joining them. He studied the three Sith they had killed. "Did you even have weapons when this thing started?"

"A Jedi is always armed," Vestara said, quoting a maxim that was a favorite of the Sith as well as the Jedi.

She held Ben's hand for a moment, enjoying its strength and warmth-and knowing that one day soon, she would have to turn her back on his touch. Finally, she allowed him to help her to her feet, then turned toward the battle between Luke and Workan. A swath of shattered glass and smoking furniture marked the path their fight had taken to the rear part of the room. It seemed clear from the crooked route that the fight had been both desperate and well matched, but now Workan was finally being forced to retreat past his desk. With Seha Dorvald rushing to join the fight, he would eventually be pushed into a corner and perhaps even taken for interrogation.

And that, Vestara could not allow-not after the trick she had used to get them into the office in the first place. She thought for a moment, then pulled a blaster pistol from the holster of a dead guard.

"Something's wrong!" She started toward the back of the room. "We've got to stop him."

A large hand caught her by the shoulder. "Stop him from what?" Doran demanded. "Luke wants to take Workan-"

Vestara shook free. "Look at where he is-he's trying to get to his desk." She raised the blaster pistol and began to fire into the combat, not so much trying to kill Workan herself as to force him away from the desk-and onto Luke's blade. "He must have a detonator switch back there!"

Doran released her shoulder, and a moment later two more streams of blasterfire joined Vestara's.

"Dad, trap!" Ben yelled. "Back off!"


"Seha-you, too!" Doran added.

Both Jedi dived away at once, leaving a badly confused Workan struggling to bat aside the storm of blasterfire coming his way. Already exhausted and wounded, with one arm hanging limp and a smoking slash across his chest, he was no match for three attackers trained to coordinate their fire to overwhelm his defenses. It took only six shots for Ben to burn a hole through his head.

Despite this Ivaar muses that Darish Vol can one shot him with the force

Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:But if she knew the Sith were here on Coruscant-

No. If something happened and his Master found that Workan had not warned him, Workan would not live long enough to draw breath to apologize. It had to be now.

And Luke is >> Darish Vol, which is a given but here's a quick quote

Fate of the Jedi - Ascension wrote:Vol had much of the power of Skywalker

So we get...
Luke >> Vol >>> Workan ~< Luke combatively

So Luke should one shot in the force but is genuinely hard pressed in a 1v1 combative engagement 

we can also look to Luke vs Caedus in Legacy of the Force where we can see Luke in a battle rage...

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:Nothing else could have shocked Luke out of his battle rage-only the sight of Ben slipping so far to the dark side.

Is still dueling Caedus in an epic clash, with clear intention to kill

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:Luke didn't know what it was doing there-whether Ben had attacked Jacen with it, or whether Jacen had been using it on Ben-but he started to accept that the horrible scene was real. He was, in fact, standing in the doorway of a secret cabin filled with Yuuzhan Vong torture devices, watching his twisted nephew taunt his captive son.

Luke didn't give Jacen a chance to surrender. He just sprang.

Ben's jaw dropped, and Jacen started to spin, snatching his lightsaber from his belt and igniting it in the same motion, bringing the emerald blade around high to protect his heart and head.

But Luke was attacking low, striking for the kidney to disable in the most painful way possible. Jacen's eyes widened. He flipped his lightsaber down in the same moment Luke's met flesh.

The tip sank a few centimeters, drawing a pained hiss as it touched a kidney, then Jacen's blade made contact and knocked it aside. Even that small wound would have left most humans paralyzed with agony. But Jacen thrived on pain, fed on it to make himself stronger and faster. He simply completed his pivot and landed a rib-crunching roundhouse.

Luke stumbled back, his chest filled with fire. Jacen had caught him on the barely healed scar from his first fight with Lumiya, and now his breath was coming in short painful gasps.

Good, Luke thought. This was supposed to hurt.

Jacen followed the kick with a high slash. Luke blocked and spun inside, landing an elbow smash to the temple that dropped Jacen to his knees. He brought his own knee up under Jacen's chin, hearing teeth crack-and relishing it. He parried a weak slash at his thighs, then drew his blade up diagonally where his nephew's chest should have been.

Except Jacen was sliding backward, one hand extended behind him, using the Force to pull himself toward a tendril-draped rack in the far corner of the torture chamber. Luke leapt after him, bringing his lightsaber around in a low, clearing sweep.

Jacen stopped pulling and started to swing his free hand around. Luke was ready, had been expecting this since the fight started. Still flying through the air, he raised his own hand, palm outward, and pushed the Force out through his arm to form a protective shield.

The lightning never came. Instead, Luke was blindsided by something heavy and spiky, and his body exploded into pain as he slammed into a durasteel wall. He found himself pinned in place, trapped by a bed of thorns Jacen had hurled across the cabin. He felt the hot sting of the thorns pumping their venom into him. His hearing faded and his head began to spin, and he saw Jacen, one hand still raised to keep Luke pinned, sneering and taking his time rising.

Bad mistake.

Luke raised his lightsaber, slashing through the thorn bed as he sprang. Jacen scrambled to his feet, barely bringing his weapon up in time to block a vicious downstroke. Luke landed a snap-kick to the stomach that lifted Jacen a meter off the deck, then followed it with a slash to the neck-

-which Jacen ducked. He came up under Luke's guard, holding his weapon with one hand and driving a Force-enhanced punch into Luke's ribs with the other, striking for the same place he had kicked earlier. Luke's chest exploded into pain, and he found himself croaking instead of breathing.

Luke struck again with his lightsaber, using both hands and putting all his strength into the attack, beating his nephew's guard down so far that Jacen's emerald blade bit into his own shoulder. Jacen kicked at Luke's legs, catching the side of a knee. Something popped and Luke felt himself going down. On the way, he swept his blade horizontally.

Jacen screamed, and the smell of scorched bone and singed hair filled the air. Knowing Jacen would strike despite the wound, Luke rolled over his throbbing knee and spun back to his feet with a clearing sweep.

His blade met Jacen's in a shower of brilliant sparks. Luke freed one hand and drove a finger-strike at Jacen's eyes.

Jacen turned his head, but Luke's little finger scratched across something soft and bulbous. Jacen roared and stumbled away, shaking his head. Luke feinted a dash toward his nephew's blind side, then-as Jacen pivoted to protect his injured eye-Luke hit him with a Force wave.

Jacen went flying, and it required only a soft nudge to steer him into a tendril-draped rack in the far corner. He hit with so much cracking and crashing that Luke worried the rack had broken, but the thin tendrils quickly entwined Jacen in a net of pulsing green.

Luke started forward, his injured knee buckling each time he put weight on it. The rack's slender tendrils were tightening around Jacen, cutting into his flesh and oozing a yellowish irritant that made skin puff up and split. Jacen began to slash his lightsaber up and down, cutting the vines away two and three at a time. If Luke wanted to finish this-and it seemed like a good idea, given how battered he was himself-he had only a few seconds.

Luke closed to within two meters without saying a word. What point would there have been? Jacen wasn't going to surrender, and Luke wouldn't have believed him if he offered. It was better to attack quickly, while he still had the advantage. He brought his lightsaber up to strike.

"Wait!" Ben cried from behind him. "Let me do it!"

Astonished and appalled, Luke put a little too much weight on his injured knee-and fell as it buckled. He rolled beyond the reach of Jacen's lightsaber and looked back across the chamber. Ben was still strapped in the Embrace, but he had summoned the vibrodagger off the floor and was battling to cut himself free of the chair's lashing tentacles.

Luke shook his head. "I don't think so, Ben."

"You have to!" Ben insisted. "I deserve it!"

"Deserve it?" Luke returned to his feet, far angrier with Jacen than he had been just a moment earlier. "To kill someone?"

"You don't understand, "Ben insisted. "It was my fault. If I don't do this..."

"I said no, "Luke interrupted. How could Ben believe that he had a right to kill someone? "You're very confused, Ben. We'll talk about this later."

Giving his son no further chance to argue, Luke turned back to Jacen, who by now was almost free. Only one leg remained caught, though it was still entwined in a half a dozen places. Luke limped forward, circling toward Jacen's trapped side.

Jacen stopped cutting at the tendrils and flung a hand toward the ceiling.

"Dad, look — "

Luke was already throwing himself to the deck. A tremendous crash sounded from the illumination panel, and the chamber fell instantly dark. He rolled opposite the direction he had just been moving, but wasn't quick enough. The fixture smashed into his head and shoulders, slamming his face into the deck. He heard something crunch in his nose and was instantly choking on his own thick blood.

Jacen's lightsaber droned twice, filling that corner of the torture chamber with flickering green light. Luke Force-hurled the light fixture off his back, then hobbled to his feet.

Jacen launched himself over Luke in a high Force flip. They exchanged perfunctory attacks as he tumbled past, then Luke was alone in the corner, watching the green column of his nephew's lightsaber move toward the door.

Jacen was running.

Luke spat out a mouthful of blood and Force-leapt after his nephew, at the same time reaching out to drag him back. They came together in a blinding flurry of sparks, their blades colliding faster than the eye could follow, filling the dark chamber with flashing fans of color. Blows came out of nowhere. Luke caught another kick in his knee and found himself calling on the Force to keep his balance. He landed an elbow and felt a bone in Jacen's face shatter.

Jacen stumbled back, groaning, the green light of his lightsaber briefly illuminating Ben's face as the boy struggled to cut himself free. Luke pressed forward, angling toward the Embrace to keep Jacen away from Ben. Jacen fought his way over anyway, placing himself squarely between Luke and the chair, then gave ground and vanished behind the green ribbons his lightsaber was weaving through the darkness.

Luke Force-leapt after him, knowing that this Jacen- the Jacen he had caught torturing his son-would not hesitate to take Ben hostage... or to kill him. Luke landed half a meter in front of Jacen's lightsaber and quickly beat down his nephew's guard-too quickly. When he did not glimpse a face in the light of his own blade, Luke knew something was wrong and stopped.

Which was exactly what Jacen was waiting for, of course.

Luke had barely started to turn before a loop of thin tendril slipped over his head and tightened around his throat, oozing toxin and cutting deep into the flesh. The wound swelled and burned as if it were on fire. Luke whipped his lightsaber around, trying to cut Jacen off his back, but Jacen was already spinning away, tightening his garrote and placing Luke's body between himself and the deadly blade.

"Should have let me go when you had the chance, "Jacen snarled. "Now you're done."

Luke slammed an elbow into Jacen's ribs, but it was like hitting a permacrete wall. Instead of continuing to fight, he accelerated into the spin, using the Force to hurl them both into the nearest wall.

Jacen hit first, his skull clunking hard into the durasteel. The garrote loosened a little. Luke dropped his lightsaber, bracing one hand against the other so he could use the strength of both arms to hammer his elbow up under Jacen's chin.

The garrote went completely slack. Luke followed up with a palm-heel to the same target, using the impact to drive himself away from his attacker and buy some maneuvering room.

Then Jacen let out a bloodcurdling scream and stumbled away, a black silhouette vanishing into the darkness of the torture chamber.

Luke stepped back in shock and confusion, summoning his lightsaber to hand, but knowing by the surprise in Jacen's scream that this was not another trick.

"It's okay, Dad, "Ben said from beside him. "It's just me."

Ben took the glow rod from Luke's belt and activated it. Jacen was crawling across the torture chamber, the hilt of a vibrodagger protruding from between his shoulder blades. His face was inflamed and misshapen, his clothes were smoking and tattered, a hand-sized rectangle of scorched skull showed through his scalp, and still he was stretching a hand toward his lightsaber.

Despite being FAR more powerful than Caedus as made evident throughout the source material which I shouldn't need to prove but here is Luke showing incredible superiority to Caedus when direct combat / sabers are not involved 

Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:"Don't play stupid, "Luke snapped. "This isn't about the academy. It's about Ben."

"Ben?" Caedus stopped at the corner of his desk, feigning shock. "Did something happen to him?"

"You tell me, "Luke said. "You're the one who sent him."

"Sent him where! I've hardly spoken to Ben since the funeral."

In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.

"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."

Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.

"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."

"This has nothing to do with Mara, "Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."

The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.

Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
"Does this have something to do with Cal Omas?" he asked. "Tell me Ben didn't do anything foolish!"

Luke's eyes grew narrow and cold. "Tell me what makes you think he might have."

"Of course, "Caedus said. "Ben learned of a conversation that made it look as though Omas had something to do with Mara's death."

"That's ridiculous, "Luke said. "Chief Omas would never have done something like that."

"Never have!" Caedus echoed. "You mean Ben.... you mean Omas is dead?"

Luke looked at him without answering.

Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force. Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about,

Caedus knew he would already be dead. Another reminder that anyone could be surprised.

"I tried to tell Ben the same thing, but he's so full of anger." He locked gazes with Luke. "I'm afraid he's going to become its servant, if one of us doesn't reach him soon."

Luke nodded, then sat on the corner of Caedus's desk. "How did Ben find out about this conversation?"

Caedus forced himself not to look away. "I wish I knew."

"You told him." When Luke's expression did not change, Caedus realized that his uncle had been expecting the lie, that he had already worked matters out for himself. "It's just so convenient for you, isn't it? You let something slip in an innocent conversation and point Ben like a missile."
"That's not what happened." The denial was strictly for form; Caedus knew Luke wouldn't believe it. "But even if it were, now is hardly the time to discuss it. We're a Squib's hair from victory. After we crush the Confederation, I'll be..." Krova's voice came over the comm speaker. "I'm sorry to interrupt, Colonel Solo, but Admiral Bwua'tu is ready for the Hapans."

Caedus felt a knot unwind inside. Finally.

"Tell Admiral Bwua'tu the Hapans will be coming shortly." Caedus had retained personal control of the Hapan Home Fleet, determined to prevent any risk to Tenel Ka or Allana by not using it until victory was certain. He waited until Krova had acknowledged the order and closed the channel, then turned to his uncle. "I've told you all I know about Omas's death, and I need to transmit that order myself. The Queen Mother insisted I take personal responsibility for committing her fleet."

Luke raised his brow. "You think you're dismissing me?"

"I know I am." Caedus put an angry edge in his voice; he might be trapped in a humiliating position right now, but he was still the leader of the Galactic Alliance-and Luke was still its servant. "If you like, we'll open an inquiry into Omas's death after we've saved the Alliance."

Luke glared at Caedus for a long moment, then finally slipped off the desk. "Is that a promise?"

"It is."

"Then I'll take it for what it's worth, "Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."
Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.

"Luke, "Caedus called. "Aren't you forgetting something?"

Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse. "You're right. I should warn you that you'll have to crush the Confederation without StealthXs. The Jedi can support you no longer."

"What?" Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise- and found himself as unable to move as before. "You can't desert now. We can end this war!"

"We could destroy the Confederation fleets and kill a lot of rebels, "Luke admitted. "But I don't think you can end this war, Jacen. I don't think you even know what it's about."

"That's absurd." Caedus did not understand how a man who had been fighting wars for forty years could be so foolish. "After their fleets are destroyed, Corellia and Both-awui will have to accept our terms, and once they've surrendered, the rest of the Confederation will have no choice but to come racing to rejoin the Alliance."

Luke shook his head and reached for the touch pad beside the door. "There's always a choice, Jacen."

"And if you go through with this one, you'll regret it." Caedus could not understand why Luke wanted to desert him just when they were on the brink of saving the Alliance, but he did know how to prevent it. "Have you forgotten the academy?"
The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. "I'm sure you're not threatening the younglings."

He pointed at the base of Jacen's meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.

"Because you really don't want to see me angry." Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedestal emitted a metallic shriek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. "And I think you're smart enough to know that."

Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, depositing Caedus on the floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.

"But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat."

Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance.
---
Krova acknowledged the order, and a moment later Caedus felt the Jedi moving away from the Anakin Solo. Realizing it would soon be time for him to coordinate their attack with Admiral Bwua'tu, Caedus grabbed his meditation chair in the Force and discovered that he could not turn it back toward the battle. No matter how hard he exerted himself, it would not budge.

Legacy of the Force wrote:Caedus tried to block Luke in the Force and suddenly got an idea of just how much power Luke could muster. His seat shot forward, sheared off the runners, tipped to one side, and he hit the console at an angle before he could buffer the collision with the Force. Something cracked in his chest.

another quick example of Luke's undoubtable vast superiority to Caedus is shown here, where Luke tricks Caedus into fighting a fleet that is not even there and fools Caedus into thinking he is fighting him, when really he is fighting Jaina...

Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:Luke could even deceive Jacen into fighting a fleet that wasn't there.

Legacy of the Force: Invincible wrote:Now Caedus could see who he was fighting, and he could not believe it. A gaunt-faced man with eyes as blue and cold as vardium steel, nostrils flaring red with anger and exertion, a thin-lipped snarl filled with confidence and disdain.

Luke Skywalker.

[…]

"You?" he gasped. "Jaina?"

Jaina managed to raise her throbbing head. It hurt-a lot-and her vision was starting to blur.

"I haven't changed that much, Jacen," she said.

[…]

He had been fighting Luke one moment, Jaina the next, and then they had both been there-not just illusions of them, but presences real enough to bat blaster bolts back at the stormtroopers attacking them.

Luke does these things despite the fact that Jacen has a full understanding and mastery of Illusion, Caedus is just left there bewildered, he never even comprehends the possibility of either of these feats, Luke utterly shows him up.

So if we look at the evidence we can see a clear disconnect between ones overall power and ones combative ability when the absolute peak is reached, Tier Theory would also favor a more 'realistic' approach to Versus, where we don't have so many of these all time powerhouses and absolute masters getting one shot, at least when it comes to combative ability, suddenly all of these situations become a lot more plausible, all leading to it making perfect sense that there is a cap, given level 9 is intended to be the absolute peak in combative ability.

Luke Skywalker's main writer Troy Denning seems to agree with this disconnect and that in a combat situation Luke is not a 'demi-god' and can still be challenged

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Fb4c8310
even when facing relatively feeble opponents, the suspense is still high, meaning it could go either way, demonstrably untrue in an all out force contest, yet with this cap and disconnect in combative ability, not so much, and this makes suddenly makes perfect sense.

Consider for a moment that Luke is a peak conventional fighter at a level 9 like Yoda, and Ivaar a high level 8 like Mace, and is not going fully all out on Ivaar, then the duel makes a lot more sense than Luke being 17 tiers above Ivaar all round, note that this does not preclude Luke being '17 tiers' above in raw force power merely combative ability and what is applicable in that respect.

To conclude on this segment...
Judging by the evidence there exists a cap and a clear disconnect between pure force power and combative ability, It makes sense that there is a cap, and that that cap obviously be the top tier 9 proposed by Gillard in his G-Canon Tier system, backed up by the most powerful Jedi to ever exist slotting into this tier, and the tier above not even existing.

which leads me to the next segment...
Vaelias
Vaelias

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty ANAKIN SUPREMACY

June 14th 2021, 11:58 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
There is a line from the Revenge of the Sith novelization that reads as follows

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

before we break this down, lets affirm the validity and canonicity of this source

Leland Chee wrote:"Are novelisations of the films considered G-level or C-level material?

In a nutshell, anything created by the author would be C-level. Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films.

It gets a little more complicated when something is seen on-screen but not named. So the ”shuura fruit” mentioned in the AOTC novel would be G because you see it in the film, although the author came up with the name."

so in a nutshell with the fewest possible words, by default, the novels are C, albeit 'A close second' to G-Canon and George Lucas' internal notes and edits being true G-Canon

Sue Rostoni, Star Wars Insider #23 (1994 wrote:"'Gospel,' or canon as we refer to it, includes the screenplays, the films, the radio dramas and the novelizations. These works spin out of George Lucas' original stories, the rest are written by other writers.

"Which brings us to the often-asked question: Just what is Star Wars canon, and what is not? The one sure answer: The Star Wars Trilogy Special Edition -- the three films themselves as executive-produced, and in the case of Star Wars written and directed, by George Lucas, are canon. Coming in a close second we have the authorized adaptations of the three films: the novels, radio dramas, and comics. After that, almost everything falls into a category of 'quasi-canon.'"


Sue Rostoni, StarWars.com Forums (2003) wrote:"There is a hierarchy--the movies, [film adult] novelizations, [film] radio dramas come first. Then everything else. If something in a novelization contradicts the movies, then we defer to the movies. IE, the ROJ novelization says that Obi-Wan and Owen Lars were brothers. This wasn't in the movie, and has since been discounted. Maybe it was a cover they used at one point... who knows.

The one area that's constantly in dispute are the Marvel comics and the David's middle grade books (The Glove of Darth Vader, et al). For these, if something ADDS to the universe, and does not contradict either already-established facts or SW sensibility, we accept it and add it to the lore. If it does, we disregard it. At the time these products were published, the idea of a continuous history hadn't been established.

Not only this but Lucas himself considers the Movie Novels part of his own canon, add that to the line edits and we have it pretty set in stone that the ROTS Novel is effectively G-Canon 
- Maintainer via \"Kristel", SW Prequel Trilogy Mailing Lis wrote:
"Steven Sansweet said this at a convention in Australia: "In the canon debate, it is important to notice that LucasFilm and Lucas are different entities. The only canon source of Star Wars are the radio plays, the movie novels and the movies themselves - in Lucas' mind, nothing else exists, and no authorized LucasFilm novel will restrict his creativity in any way.""

affirmed when Rostoni maintains that the hierarchy is...
The Movies > The Movie Adaptations & Radio Drama's > Everything Else

So while the Novel by default is C-Canon it is still a higher C-Canon than everything else, the rest of the EU of course falling under 'everything else'

Now refer to the red in the above quote from Leland Chee, in this case Lucas has made very heavy alterations to the ROTS Novel, as have the top LFL officials Roffman and Rostoni and everyone else at LFL, lol
Matthew Stover - TheForce.net wrote:”Though I did not personally watch him do it, I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.
 
 What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
 
 Period."
So much so that Stover notes Lucas line edited the novel with more precision than Rostoni, Roffman and the rest of the LFL Crew, note that it is protocol for ALL novels to go through thorough LFL review before publication so the fact that Lucas' line edits changed more than the whole of LFL is incredible, Matthew Stover even notes that Lucas removed a lot of the EU tie ins in the ROTS Novel (2) ... not only this but character motivations are one of the specifics directly noted to have been worked on in conjunction with Lucas in the making of the Prequel Novelizations (1)

- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Aug. 2008 - post from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:(1) each of the authors met directly with George Lucas to discuss story points and character motivations.
Anakin's supremacy line provided above is one of the most crucial excerpts of Anakin's character motivation, here is the full passage, arguably one of the most important integral passages in the book especially pertaining to motivations of Anakin, the main character in ROTS, this means that this passage was specifically looked at with George and likely a main focus in the line edits, the whole of LFL including the president and George Lucas himself have read this passage and agreed with it, that's pretty much all there is to need to know

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:This is Anakin Skywalker: The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace. He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it. HoloNet features call him the Hero With No Fear. And why not? What should he be afraid of? Except-Fear lives inside him anyway, chewing away the firewalls around his heart. Anakin sometimes thinks of the dread that eats at his heart as a dragon. Children on Tatooine tell each other of the dragons that live inside the suns; smaller cousins of the sun-dragons are supposed to live inside the fusion furnaces that power everything from starships to Podracers. But Anakin's fear is another kind of dragon. A cold kind. A dead kind.Not nearly dead enough. Not long after he became Obi-Wan's Padawan, all those years ago, a minor mission had brought them to a dead system: one so immeasurably old that its star had long ago turned to a frigid dwarf of hypercompacted trace metals, hovering a quantum fraction of a degree above absolute zero. Anakin couldn't even remember what the mission might have been, but he'd never forgotten that dead star. It had scared him. "Stars can die-?" "It is the way of the universe, which is another manner of saying that it is the will of the Force," Obi-Wan had told him. "Everything dies. In time, even stars burn out. This is why Jedi form no attachments: all things pass. To hold on to something-or someone-beyond its time is to set your selfish desires against the Force. That is a path of misery, Anakin; the Jedi do not walk it." That is the kind of fear that lives inside Anakin Skywalker: the dragon of that dead star. It is an ancient, cold dead voice within his heart that whispers all things die . . . In bright day he can't hear it; battle, a mission, even a report before the Jedi Council, can make him forget it's even there. But at night-At night, the walls he has built sometimes start to frost over. Sometimes they start to crack. At night, the dead-star dragon sometimes sneaks through the cracks and crawls up into his brain and chews at the inside of his skull. The dragon whispers of what Anakin has lost. And what he will lose. The dragon reminds him, every night, of how he held his dying mother in his arms, of how she had spent her last strength to say I knew you would come for me, Anakin . . .The dragon reminds him, every night, that someday he will lose Obi-Wan. He will lose Padme. Or they will lose him. All things die, Anakin Skywalker. Even stars burn out. . .
(People like to say 'oh well we don't know if Lucas Line edited this specific part of the novel' I hope this can clear up that silly speculation)

- Matthew Stover, Author (Ep3 and EU) and EU Guerrilla, Mar 2005 - \"Inside Del Rey's Episode III Library" on StarWars.com wrote:
(2) "Not only has Mr. Lucas succeeded in tying together the entire six-film cycle (and elegantly, too), but I've managed to weave in a significant amount of the Expanded Universe material in as well -- having started in the Star Wars realm as an EU author, after all. I was really trying to bring the whole Star Wars Universe together in this story, and while Mr. Lucas, in his line-edit, decided to excise a fair amount of the EU material, he also left a fair amount of it in... so I guess that makes whatever's left just a hair short of ”G canon,” for all the purists out there."
"As I said above, part of my aim here was to create a novel that would work as part of the EU as well as a companion piece to the film."

George's thoughts and directives are G-Canon and bind everything

Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Jan. - Dec. 2004 wrote:"Is there anything post-Return of the Jedi that is G level?

Not in the database, no. If there is anything anywhere, only George knows."


Leland Chee, StarWars.com Forums (2005) wrote:"The EU is bound by what is seen in the most current version of the films and by directives from George Lucas."

CANONICITY OVERVIEW
- Movie adult adaptations by default are higher canonicity than everything else and are Gospel
- Lucas' involvement G-Canon or not only increases its canonicity
- Roffman and Rostoni and the rest of LFL involvement only increases continuity validity
- George's thoughts, directives and internal drafts are G-Canon
- Lucas considers the Movie adaptations part of his canon
- Line edits confirmed by Stover to be heavy
- Everything left in noted to by Stover to be G-Canon
- George directly specifically noted to play a big role in character motivation
- The Anakin Supremacy passage is an integral part of the novel and Anakin's motivations meaning George will have specifically focused on that passage with Stover and in his edits
- Everyone in the company reading Anakin supremacy and nodding their heads

This just goes to show the extent of Lucas' line edits and the fact Stover goes to such lengths to emphasize them and even notes that what is left in, is in there because Lucas wants it there and is G-Canon is nothing short of hard proof that the C-Canon by default Novel has effectively transformed into a G-Canon one, due to the extremely heavy involvement, It seems odd to assume that the book being so refined by word of god and the rest of LFL would still be bound by OOU dating like your average C-Canon sourcebook quote.

Now lets get into the details on the quote

First is the perspective of the Novel, this is a relatively well known concept so ill just give a brief explanation

The Novel is written from the IU Omniscient Narrator and everything we the people on earth read is what the Whills/Narrator has written in the Journal of the Whills

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Journa10

The Shaman of the Whills in TCW act as a voice for the Whills and their Influence, these all knowing creatures are essentially the voice of the narrator

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Whils10
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Journa11

The German source is talking about how the Journal of the Whills is written in the the New Republic and act as Historians

"Neue Republik" = "New Republic" "Holonachricht" = "Holo-message" "Quelle" = "source" "Thema" = "Topic" the topic being the "fall of the Old Republic" Halsyykh = the Historian

Tenebrous makes reference to the Journal of the Whills and how they speak of Anakin being born of pure force

The Tenebrous Way wrote:The key, he'd discovered, lay in an obscure legend obliquely referenced in the Journal of the Whills, about a hero fairly typical in most cultures-the sort of promised future savior who appears in the foundational myths of nearly every developed society. What distinguished this particular savior from his run-of-the-mill equivalents was that he, according to four of eleven possible translations, was to be "born of pure Force." After three standard years devoted specifically to exploring all possible permutations of the interpretation, Tenebrous determined that such a birth was indeed possible, at least metaphorically- "born of pure Force" could be read as indicating the creation of a living being through direct manipulation of midi-chlorian processes in an already living being.

which backs up the Anakin supremacy seen in the ROTS Novel, essentially the all knowing omniscient Whills that tell all the stories of Star Wars are in awe of Anakin, basically like "Damn this guy is the best there has ever been" as written in the ROTS Novel

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:
This is Anakin Skywalker:

(1) The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. (2) The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space, (3) there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

(4) He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

(1) Taking into account the ABY perspective of this quote the 'any generation' would span literally all generations in the mythos, this can mean two things, either Anakin is perhaps the most powerful of any generation in a non-committal sense meaning perhaps there is another Jedi out there in the mythos that is more powerful, but its unlikely or the perhaps is implying parity with the most powerful Jedi ever, who has to be non other than Luke Skywalker, i.e maybe Anakin is better than Luke or it could be argued Anakin is better than Luke

(2) This segment is focused on combative ability - Fastest and Strongest, must be a direct reference to his combative ability and that exceeds literally everyone in Star Wars from any Generation, nobody is a better pilot, and nobody can beat him in combat, again exceeding everyone who ever lived, there is no one to the omniscient narrators infinite knowledge that can possibly beat him, this can lend its self to the Tier Theory, despite Anakin only being 'perhaps' the most powerful Jedi ever yet he is still definitively superior to all in a combative sense, no matter what, due to him fighting on a level that 'doesn't even exist' and being a tier above what is firmly established to be the highest level of combative ability per Gillard, this creates a circular reasoning proving Tier Theory, Anakin is on another level to everyone else combatively, because of Gillard's statement which proves this quote is true and this quote existing in turn proves Gillard's statement true, all working in conjunction with Anakin Supremacy, it makes sense that the most powerful Jedi ever would be at the highest combative level possible, Anakin being a 9 at base, affirms level 9 as the highest level of combative ability, seeing as he is perhaps more powerful than Luke then Luke must also be a 9 at base, all this feeds into one another proving Tier Theory and Anakin Supremacy

(3) not only is he the the best at all aforementioned qualities, in the whole of star wars, there is no one even close to him, this is directly referencing force power and skill given 'he has not just power, not just skill' and its the way he applies these talents with dash, boldness and grace which allows him to be truly unbeatable and unparalleled, we now get confirmation that, no, the omniscient narrator knows there is nobody better than Anakin, in fact there is no one even close all round, considering everything like power, skill, dash etc. this segment unlike the first, is not specific to Jedi, it confirms that all things considered, when factoring in all qualities nobody is close to Anakin. he is just, the best, as further explored in the next segment

(4) He is the best there is at all the aforementioned qualities listed prior, not only is he the best there is, but he is the best there has ever been, again coming from the perspective of the Narrator far in the future, 'best' being all encompassing and summing it all up, in an all round sense, he is definitively the best ever! which again supports Anakin being a Tier above of everyone else ever as supported by Tier Theory and Gillard's Statement, this supports the point Gillard makes about the tiers being like the Richter scale with massive 'no one even close' gaps between each tier

Nick Gillard wrote:"It's like the richter scale, the gap between each level is enormous."

I would just like to quickly point out that this all makes sense narratively, in accordance with George Lucas the point of the character of Anakin is a being of pure force, born fatherless, and a god/demi-god as part of Lucas' main intentions for the prequel trilogy

George Lucas - Time Magazine Interview 1999 wrote: I put the Force into the movie in order to try to awaken a certain kind of spirituality in young people--more a belief in God than a belief in any particular religious system.

The Force being God and Anakin being a creation of pure force, essentially a living embodiment of God or a Demi-God, with Anakin being reminiscent of Jesus. And again this all aligns which Lucas supporting everything at is in the ROTS Novel, that including Anakin having the Will of God

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Every bone in his body ached with helplessness. Because he knew: 
that fragment of a ship was a death trap. No one could land such a 
hulk, not even Skywalker. Each second that passed before its final 
breakup and burn was a miracle in itself, a testament to the gifts of 
a pilot who was justly legendary
— but when each second is a 
miracle, how many of them can be strung together in a row?


This is Anakin Skywalker's masterpiece
Many people say he is the best star pilot in the galaxy, but that's 
merely talk, born of the constant HoloNet references to his 
unmatched string of kills in starfighter combat. Blowing up vulture 
droids and tri-fighters is simply a matter of superior reflexes and 
trust in the Force; he has spent so many hours in the cockpit that he 
wears a Jedi starfighter like clothes. It's his own body, with thrusters 
for legs and cannons for fists.
What he is doing right now transcends mere flying the way Jedi 
combat transcends a schoolyard scuffle.
He sits in a blood-spattered, blaster-chopped chair behind a 
console he's never seen before, a console with controls designed for 
alien fingers. The ship he's in is not only bucking like a maddened 
dewback through brutal coils of clear-air turbulence, it's on fire and 
breaking up like a comet ripping apart as it crashes into a gas giant. 
He has only seconds to learn how to maneuver an alien craft that not 
only has no aft control cells, but has no aft at all.
This is, put simply, impossible. It can't be done.
He's going to do it anyway.
Because he is Anakin Skywalker, and he doesn't believe in 
impossible.

He extends his hands and for one long, long moment he 
merely strokes controls, feeling their shape under his fingers, lis-
tening to the shivers his soft touch brings to each remaining

control surface of the disintegrating ship, allowing their resonances to 
join inside his head until they resolve into harmony like a Ferroan 
joy-harp virtuoso checking the tuning of his instrument.
And at the same time, he draws power from the Force. He 
gathers perception, and luck, and sucks into himself the instinctive, 
preconscious what-will-happen-in-the-next-ten-seconds intuition that 
has always been the core of his talent. And then he begins.
On the downbeat, atmospheric drag fins deploy; as he tweaks 
their angles and cycles them in and out to slow the ship's descent 
without burning them off altogether, their contrabass roar takes 
on a punctuated rhythm like a heart that skips an occasional beat. 
The forward attitude thrusters, damaged in the ship-to-ship battle, 
now fire in random directions, but he can feel where they're 
raking him and he strokes them in sequence, making their song 
the theme of his impromptu concerto.
And the true inspiration, the sparkling grace note of genius 
that brings his masterpiece to life, is the soprano counterpoint: a 
syncopated sequence of exterior hatches in the outer hull sliding 
open and closed and open again, subtly altering the aerodynamics 
of the ship to give it just exactly the amount of sideslip or lift or 
yaw to bring the huge half cruiser into the approach cone of a 
pinpoint target an eighth of the planet away.
It is the Force that makes this possible, and more than the 
Force. Anakin has no interest in serene acceptance of what the 
Force will bring.
Not here. Not now. Not with the lives of 
Palpatine and Obi-Wan at stake. It's just the opposite: he 
seizes upon the Force with a stark refusal to fail.
He will land this ship.
He will save his friends.
Between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest

Anakin being The Chosen One has its advantages. Here it is made abundant that Anakin being Anakin, and possessing his gifts (being the chosen one) combined with his command of the force essentially grants him boundless power, to where him essentially being Force Incarnate is enough to make any impossibility a possibility simply by force of will, he doesn't believe in impossible, therefore impossibility is an impossibility for him, and the will of the force is simply overruled by Anakin and the gifts he possesses

This is quite possibly the best showing in the mythos, and is only supported later when Dooku's death is a predetermined fact, given infinite number of chances Dooku would not be able to defeat Anakin, he is already dead as soon as Anakin gets it into his head that yep Dooku is going down

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
 

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Thier duel was a play, and meaningless, Dooku was already dead, that is final, as soon as Anakin realizes that he can use these emotions as a weapon, a moment of mental clarity, this is when Anakin becomes the level that level above everyone else that Gillard spoke of. combine this with everything we have talked about and the quotes that speak on Anakin's boundless power and you have a clear picture of Anakin supremacy supported and backed by both Narrative intent, everyone at LFL and George Lucas himself!

Databanks -  Darth Vader wrote:Skywalker was seduced by the dark side of the Force. His boundless abilities fueled a sense of pride that hastened his fall.

Darth Sidious - Databank wrote:”As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by his seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal.”
Note: these are G-Canon 
Leland Chee, StarWars.com Forums (2005) wrote:Databank - The Movies descriptions are G; Expanded Universe descriptions are C.

--
Now, we are not even done there, we have only talked about Anakin at the beginning of Revenge of the Sith  SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  815462187 

Throughout ROTS Anakin is growing in power significantly, he is on a mission throughout the whole book to grow more and more powerful and there is a trope throughout the novel of Anakin's heart and his flame unlocking new powers as he learns to tame them and use them

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:I will become so powerful that I will keep you safe. Forever. I will.

he grows in power and combative ability and makes a tier jump just in the mere moments fighting Dooku, from a point where he is already the best there has ever been (Tier's being enormous) 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-Skywalker was getting stronger.

During which time he already seemed to be impossibly powerful

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him

He has now felt more powerful than ever before, indicating the 'Zonakin' state gave Anakin a permanent boost 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Anakin had never felt so powerful. The Force was with him today in ways more potent than he had ever experienced.
including on mortis

and then keeps growing

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:If anyone can save Palpatine, Anakin will. Because he's already the best, and he's still getting better.

and growing

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:Anakin radiated excitement so powerfully in the Force that Obi-Wan could practically hear the thunder of his heartbeat.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long. Skywalker was a natural.

and growing 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:That, now-that simple unbearable fact-that was truth. Though it burned him like his own lightsaber, truth was some-thing he could hang on to. And somehow it made him feel a little better. A little stronger.

and growing

Mace Windu | Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:
Skywalker is arguably the most powerful Jedi alive, and he is still getting stronger."

and growing

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden… transformation.

His power just keeps on growing, he is getting multiple big noticable boosts throughout ROTS 

There is a common theme in the ROTS Novel that joining the dark side would make Anakin more powerful, and its all about unlocking new powers to save Padme, so when Anakin becomes Darth Vader, he becomes far more powerful from the point where he has grown far more powerful from a point where he was already the best that had ever lived and it wasn't even close. 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:This is the true reason the Sith have always been more powerful than the Jedi. The Jedi fear the dark side so much they cut themselves off from the most important aspect of life: passion. Of any kind. They don't even allow themselves to love."

and its these emotions that ultimately make Anakin more powerful, as seen vs Dooku and as ill elaborate on later.

In the very seconds Anakin turns to the Dark Side he can feel his power growing 

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:"Good . . . good . . . Together, we shall master every secret of the Force." The Sith Lord purred like a contented rancor. "You have done well, my new apprentice. Do you feel your power growing?"

"Yes, my Master."

"Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you. Go forth, my boy. Go forth, and bring peace to our Empire."

Anakin is now unlocking 'all these new powers' as stated by George Lucas in The Making of Revenge of the Sith

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Anakin10
'all these' implies that the new power Anakin has achieved is vast compared to his Jedi self 

Anakin is now stated to have perfect control over his emotions, and they no longer cloud his mind...

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them-if anything, they burned hotter than before-but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.


Anakin also gains a boost from the ascendant cosmic balance shifting towards the Dark Side, this has been shown to give members of the dark side a boost in power

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Ds_boo10

For a scope of KFV's power; on Mustafar Anakin thinks just a fraction of the new power he possesses is more powerful than Obi-Wan can even conceive

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:"Even a fraction of the dark side is more power than your Jedi arrogance can conceive; living in the light, you have never seen the depth of the darkness."

Anakin in his prime state is during Order 66 where Anakin with these enormous new powers experiences the same if not more mental clarity that he did during his duel with Dooku which allowed him to shift the fight so drastically from Dooku having the 'upper hand'
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Dooku_10

 to a guaranteed predetermined victory where Anakin literally could not lose given an infinite number of chances

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

This is the death of Count Dooku: A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too. It is that simple, and that complex. And it is final. Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail. The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy. The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos. Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax. Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke. It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero. But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.
-
Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

Dooku: (Revenge of the Sith) wrote:you have hate you have anger, but you don't use them

Anakin in this state of clarity makes everything Dooku has, utterly irrelevant, literally meaningless, he has let go of all his restraint, all his fear, and finally used his emotions, and again this is fucking Dooku, not some fodder Jedi, this can lead back to Anakin in this state being a level above everyone and there being humongous gaps in-between each level, (the biggest being the gap between level 9 and the level 10 that doesnt even exist, but Anakin somehow operates at) given Dooku is confirmed to be a better duelist than even Sidious in AOTC (A Sidious who is never noted to improve as a duelist from AOTC to ROTS) and almost definitely a Tier 9 

Force Collection wrote:[Dooku's] skill with a lightsaber is matched only by Master Yoda.

yet all this was useless and had become a joke before the might of Zonakin, now that Anakin is using his emotions he is just infinitely superior 

KFV on the other hand, not only has far more emotions to fuel him, and perfectly control, but is far far more powerful, as we have established

Revenge of the Sith Novel wrote:The flame grew stronger now. Hotter. The numb fatigue that had dragged at his limbs began to burn away.


Revenge of the Sith Novel wrote:The Sith Lord who once had been a Jedi hero called Anakin Skywalker stood, drawing himself up to his full height, but he looked not outward upon his new Master, nor upon the planet-city beyond, nor out into the galaxy that they would soon rule. He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life. I am Darth Vader, he said within himself. The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist. I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart, and you-You are nothing at all. He had become, finally, what they all called him. The Hero With No Fear.

Anakin has now unlocked his furnace gate basically removing all restraints and full cutting loose with his boundless power, crushing and overpowering all of his self doubt, obstacles and hinderance, he is now in a sense of utter clarity and perfection, truly boundless and truly uncapped

this is demonstrated by Anakin casually breaking the Medium in the Lucas Approved Revenge of the Sith Video Game, note that the Video Game version of Anakin is not a hyper-focused perfect killing machine he is a homicidal maniac that 'doesn't care' so very little effort was put into everything he demonstrates, and he is still unbeatable

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Anakin11

that along with his casual demeanor in which he parades around the temple pulling off these near force unleashed level feats in a film medium

 
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June 14th 2021, 11:59 am
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Anakin Skywalker is the most powerful Jedi that ever lived and all round, simply the best. He receives tremendous growth from a point where he is far better than anyone else including any iteration of Luke that we see, this includes Post Monolith Crucible Luke, seeing as the novel clearly should not be bound by any OOU dating, the idea that it should honestly seems ridiculous at this point given all we have covered here, Narratively all of LFL + Lucas agree nobody should be above The Chosen One, the being of pure force, nobody is meant to be better than Anakin, and the basis for which the prequels are based on also supports this notion, so not only is Crucible Luke not even close to BoROTS Anakin, Caedus certainly is not given we have proven Caedus is far below even LOTF Luke in terms of raw power, add to that Anakin's level of combat ability is beyond what is even really possible, and the only person who could possibly somewhat contend would be the rare versions of Luke rising to new levels like what he would have risen to when defeating Abeloth if Krayt had not have shown up 


Even if the Novel is bound by OOU dating given its status as a Movie Adult Adaptation it is still of a higher canonicity than the rest of the EU and should override any of you scaling anyway. even being bound the Revenge of the Sith Novel is from 2005, while New Jedi Order: Unifying Force is from 2003, so the passage in ROTS would still act as a supremacy quote for BoROTS Anakin Skywalker > TUF Luke Skywalker and its not even close, then KFV scales astronomically from there


Nothing invalidates/Retcons the Anakin Supremacy in any later NJO books including Luke, Luke doesn't even have any supremacy quotes, you would think if the intent was for him to be more powerful than Anakin, then we would at least have a quote, and not have the whole of LFL agreeing with Anakin Supremacy, Introducing new content and characters is not a retcon, its simply an addition.

Behold Anakin Skywalker

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Anakin12

Concede!
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June 15th 2021, 5:55 pm
SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  2864379292
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June 15th 2021, 6:26 pm
@iamthatguy wrote:SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  2864379292
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June 21st 2021, 1:57 am
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Rebuttals

IA. Gillard

@Vaelias wrote:  SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  G_cano10
Gillard being a key member of the movie production department at the time of making this comment also allows for Gillard's word on its own to stand as G-Canon.

What it means by “unpublished internal notes'' is that they're notes that are never seen by the public. Published meaning printed or made available online so as to be generally known. So for something to be unpublished, it would have to not be available online and thus not generally known, and it's also backed up by the word “internal” which means it's only meant to be kept/shared internally.

This would also go against many other sources on the matter, namely what Chee, the Holocron keeper's, comments on concerning G-Canon.

Leland Chee wrote:The dual universe question comes up often. I know George Lucas has mentioned it being two universes, but that’s not how I see it. His vision is definitely not beholden to ours, but ours is definitely beholden to his.

Leland Chee wrote:"And then there's the very top level of canon, the inviolable, infallible level of Truth, marked GWL—George Walton Lucas. It's the divine word of the Creator who stands outside his universe and is not subject to the rules that govern it".

So, Gillard by solely not being Lucas is "definitely beholden" to Lucas' vision, Lucas is "inviolable", "infallible", "the divine word," and "the very top level of canon.” Claiming that Gillard's word on its own stands as G-Canon without direct backing from Lucas goes directly against what the Holocron keeper establishes.

Only Lucas's comments have G-canon authority, which as I've established earlier, indicates his words possess greater authority than Gillard. With Gillard being a simple stunt coordinator, the only reason we’d care about his words is if he was a valid representation for Lucas. When he’s not Lucas backed, his word holds no weight. Which is where his inconsistencies come into play.

A) Gillard claims they're up to 8 levels.

Nick Gillard wrote:"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps.

But here Gillard claims they're 10 levels.

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Gillar11

B) Gillard claims Anakin circa Attack of the Clones is a 5.

Nick Gillard wrote:"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

But here Gillard claims he's a 7.

Nick Gillard wrote:"The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. 'Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is,' says Gillard. 'I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine.' For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference."

And "creams" Darth Maul who is a level 8.

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Creama10

To summarize, Gillard is inconsistent on the amount of tiers, and Gillard claims Anakin as of Attack of the Clones to be a level 5, then in another instance to be a level 7, but he “creams” Darth Maul who is a level 8. These inconsistencies render it nearly impossible to assume he wholly represents Lucas’ intent. Thus, if it’s no longer proven Gillard’s comments are 100% backed by Lucas, then his comments are devoid of any value.

@Vaelias wrote:
Nick Gillard wrote:"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps
nothing changes here, this is merely a 'scaled down' version of the same tier system

Why are you adding quotations around ‘scaled down’ when the source you’ve cited doesn’t say this at all? Since you haven't proven the tier system is scaled down, there's no reason to believe it's anything but an inconsistency on Gillard's part.

@Vaelias wrote:Anakin is a 9 on Mustafar while operating on a level below his state of extreme focus and perfection as we see Anakin operating in vs Dooku and then later during Operation Knightfall, it is these moments that Gillard is referring to when he notes Anakin as a Tier above everyone else, essentially a Tier 10

It’s unclear whether Gillard was taking the circumstances of the novels into account. Anakin’s mindset during his duel with Dooku and in Operation Knightfall seem not to be present in the movies, there would be no way for Gillard to know about these circumstances. And either way any other time Gillard brings up Anakin circa Revenge of the Sith he's an 8 or 9.

IB. Tier Theory

@Vaelias wrote:Tier Theory is the idea that the Gillard Tier System is spanning the whole mythos and not just the films, given Anakin being the most powerful Jedi ever is established in G-Canon and the highest possible level of combat ability that exists noted to be a level 9 with Anakin somehow operating above that, because he is well... The Chosen One.

Since we have established Gillard not to be a proxy for Lucas due to his inconsistencies, this argument falls flat. Even if we were to accept this theory, you are using the most favorable Gillard tier for Anakin, because we know in other instances Gillard labels him a 9 and even starting out as an 8, never outright naming Anakin a 10. What we know so far is that Lucas has indeed worked with Gillard on these tiers, but due to Gillard being an unreliable mouthpiece, we cannot discern Lucas’ intent through him.

II. Pertaining to the Revenge of the Sith novelization's canonicity

Before we begin with this section, I’d like to point out:

@Vaelias wrote:Not only this but Lucas himself considers the Movie Novels part of his own canon, add that to the line edits and we have it pretty set in stone that the ROTS Novel is effectively G-Canon
- Maintainer via \"Kristel", SW Prequel Trilogy Mailing Lis wrote:"Steven Sansweet said this at a convention in Australia: "In the canon debate, it is important to notice that LucasFilm and Lucas are different entities. The only canon source of Star Wars are the radio plays, the movie novels and the movies themselves - in Lucas' mind, nothing else exists, and no authorized LucasFilm novel will restrict his creativity in any way.""
affirmed when Rostoni maintains that the hierarchy is... The Movies > The Movie Adaptations & Radio Drama's > Everything Else

So while the Novel by default is C-Canon it is still a higher C-Canon than everything else, the rest of the EU of course falling under 'everything else'

My opponent claims the novel to be “essentially G-Canon” but then barely a couple lines later concedes that the novel is C-Canon “by default”. Regardless of how “high” C-Canon it is, only G-Canon can override Shedding Limitations. This means that no matter how much Lucas has line-edited the novel, you have conceded it's C-Canon. Therefore, per my opponent, the Revenge of the Sith novel is “by default” bound by Shedding Limitations.

With that in mind let’s continue the debunk.

@Vaelias wrote:Not only this but Lucas himself considers the Movie Novels part of his own canon, add that to the line edits and we have it pretty set in stone that the ROTS Novel is effectively G-Canon

Let’s see what Lucas himself has to say on the matter.

George Lucas wrote:“There are two worlds here," explained Lucas. "There’s my world, which is the movies, and there’s this other world that has been created, which I say is the parallel universe—the licensing world of the books, games and comic books. They don’t intrude on my world, which is a select period of time, [but] they do intrude in between the movies. I don’t get too involved in the parallel universe.”

George Lucas wrote:"I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."

In his own words, Lucas claims his world only consists of the movies, while the parallel universe consists of “books, games, and comic books,” claiming he “doesn’t know anything about that world.” Not only this but he then goes on to say he “doesn’t read that stuff” and "hasn’t read any of the novels.” Even with his line edits and revisions accounted for Lucas believes that the movies and novelizations are different enough from what he intended that he doesn’t consider it a part of his canon. While Sansweet is a Lucasfilm official, he is overridden by Lucas himself.

Even then, it's apparent that even Sansweet himself has changed his mind.

Stephen J. Sansweet wrote:When it comes to absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves—and only the films. Even novelizations are interpretations of the film, and while they are largely true to George Lucas' vision (he works quite closely with the novel authors), the method in which they are written does allow for some minor differences ... The further one branches away from the movies, the more interpretation and speculation come into play. LucasBooks works diligently to keep the continuing Star Wars expanded universe cohesive and uniform, but stylistically, there is always room for variation.

He claims that the novelizations are only “interpretations” of the films, and when it comes to “absolute canon, the real story of Star Wars, you must turn to the films themselves--and only the films.”

@Vaelias wrote:(People like to say 'oh well we don't know if Lucas Line edited this specific part of the novel' I hope this can clear up that silly speculation)  
- Matthew Stover, Author (Ep3 and EU) and EU Guerrilla, Mar 2005 - \"Inside Del Rey's Episode III Library" on StarWars.com wrote:(2) "Not only has Mr. Lucas succeeded in tying together the entire six-film cycle (and elegantly, too), but I've managed to weave in a significant amount of the Expanded Universe material in as well -- having started in the Star Wars realm as an EU author, after all. I was really trying to bring the whole Star Wars Universe together in this story, and while Mr. Lucas, in his line-edit, decided to excise a fair amount of the EU material, he also left a fair amount of it in... so I guess that makes whatever's left just a hair short of ”G canon,” for all the purists out there."

No that does not clear anything up, lol.

Leaving in some EU material does not mean that he wrote that specific line in the book, it’s vague enough that Stover doesn’t go into any detail on what said EU material is.

So even Stover claims himself that the novel is evidently C-Canon due to being a “hair short of G-Canon,” and even if he were to outright state that the novel is G-Canon, his statement would be overridden by Lucas.

@Vaelias wrote:So much so that Stover notes Lucas line edited the novel with more precision than Rostoni, Roffman and the rest of the LFL Crew, note that it is protocol for ALL novels to go through thorough LFL review before publication so the fact that Lucas' line edits changed more than the whole of LFL is incredible, Matthew Stover even notes that Lucas removed a lot of the EU tie ins in the ROTS Novel (2) ... not only this but character motivations are one of the specifics directly noted to have been worked on in conjunction with Lucas in the making of the Prequel Novelizations (1)
- Leland Chee, LLP continuity database admin, Aug. 2008 - post from the \"Holocron database continuity questions" thread at the StarWars.com forums wrote:(1) each of the authors met directly with George Lucas to discuss story points and character motivations.
Anakin's supremacy line provided above is one of the most crucial excerpts of Anakin's character motivation, here is the full passage, arguably one of the most important integral passages in the book especially pertaining to motivations of Anakin, the main character in ROTS, this means that this passage was specifically looked at with George and likely a main focus in the line edits, the whole of LFL including the president and George Lucas himself have read this passage and agreed with it, that's pretty much all there is to need to know

The simple fact of the matter is that line editing or looking through the novel does not make the novel G-Canon, because this doesn’t prove that the ideas are coming from Lucas himself, which is why Chee only notes George’s “revisions” of the novel is specified as G-Canon, not every line edit.

This also harkens back to a previous point, while obviously taking into account the novel he line edited just months prior, he continues to say that the novels are a “different world than my world.” This means that Lucas line editing the novel doesn’t necessitate him agreeing with the line edits he makes, because he acknowledges that the novels are not in his own world. This is evidenced by the fact that even after Lucas’ line edits he still left a “fair amount of EU material” in, but still holds that the EU to be a “parallel universe” from his own.

Even if the line edits are G-Canon, you’ve only proven why Lucas “likely” edited this line, not that he for sure edited this line, this is important because something being “likely” is by definition not binding, especially when Lucas is concerned.

But for a fleeting moment let’s suppose you’re right in that Lucas line editing and looking through the novel makes it G-Canon, Chee would’ve therefore said that what comes from Stover is G-Canon as well, because original ideas from Stover can still be line edited by Lucas. At the end of the day only George’s early scripts and direct revisions of the novel are G-Canon, what you haven’t proven is what Lucas directly revised.

@Vaelias wrote:The Novel is written from the IU Omniscient Narrator and everything we the people on earth read is what the Whills/Narrator has written in the Journal of the Whills

The Shaman of the Whills in TCW act as a voice for the Whills and their Influence, these all knowing creatures are essentially the voice of the narrator

The German source is talking about how the Journal of the Whills is written in the the New Republic and act as Historians

"Neue Republik" = "New Republic" "Holonachricht" = "Holo-message" "Quelle" = "source" "Thema" = "Topic" the topic being the "fall of the Old Republic" Halsyykh = the Historian

Although Lucas did indeed have early drafts of Journal of the Whills and their intentions, he eventually scraps this idea in favor of the Force.

George Lucas wrote:"Originally, I was trying to have the story be told by somebody else; there was somebody watching this whole story and recording it, somebody probably wiser than the mortal players in the actual events. I eventually dropped this idea, and the concept behind the Whills turned into the Force. But the Whills became part of this massive amount of notes, quotes, background information that I used for the scripts; the stories were actually taken from the 'Journal of the Whills'."

Lucas says that he “eventually dropped this idea” and the “concept” of the Whills became the “Force,” so while it might’ve been his intent at first, he changes his mind. While the Whills as a concept has been brought back in other material, it in no way replaces the concept of a narrator, since Lucas’ replacement of the Whills / narrator is the Force itself in all forms of media, meaning it's not binding to Revenge of the Sith.

But if we were to accept that all supremacy statements are told by the Whills (essentially NR historians), besides where the source outright says so, this would make all supremacy quotes not time specific, which is not what's intended. For example, Exar Kun gets a supremacy quote that claims he’s the most powerful of the Dark Lords, but Lucasfilm official and author of the quote Stephen Sansweet confirms that it’s only up until that point in the timeline.

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Steven10

So this theory that the Whills are the narrators of the Star Wars (specifically the Revenge of the Sith novel) was retconned by Lucas and Lucasfilm official Stephen Sansweet disagrees with the concept as well.

So with that out of the way let’s get to the quote itself.

Revenge of the Sith Novelization wrote:
This is Anakin Skywalker:

The most powerful Jedi of his generation. Perhaps of any generation. The fastest. The strongest. An unbeatable pilot. An unstoppable warrior. On the ground, in the air or sea or space,  there is no one even close. He has not just power, not just skill, but dash: that rare, invaluable combination of boldness and grace.

He is the best there is at what he does. The best there has ever been. And he knows it.

Since we know this quote is present tense now, “perhaps of any generation” refers to the previous generations is not only from the present tense, but actually from Anakin's point of view. The key is in the wording of “and he knows it.” How would Anakin know he's more powerful than future generations of Jedi including Crucible Luke Skywalker? If he knows that he is the best, it would be based on his personal knowledge of the Jedi generations. He would have no idea on the nature and power level of a future Luke Skywalker.

But even if the quote was told from the perspective of the Whills, the quote is told from Anakin’s perspective due to him knowing that he is the most powerful Jedi of his generation.

To conclude this section lets go through your “canonicity overview” point by point.

@Vaelias wrote:CANONICITY OVERVIEW
- Movie adult adaptations by default are higher canonicity than everything else and are Gospel
- Lucas' involvement G-Canon or not only increases its canonicity
- Roffman and Rostoni and the rest of LFL involvement only increases continuity validity

None of this means it's 100% G-Canon and therefore it is bound by Shedding Limitations.

@Vaelias wrote:- George's thoughts, directives and internal drafts are G-Canon

You haven’t proven that Lucas wrote/thought of the line or provided any of Lucas’ internal drafts.

@Vaelias wrote:- Lucas considers the Movie adaptations part of his canon

Lucas after line editing the novel still continues to hold the Revenge of the Sith novelization is not a part of his canon, and Sansweet contradicts himself anyway.

@Vaelias wrote:- Everything left in noted to by Stover to be G-Canon

“A hair short of G-Canon,” meaning it’s C-Canon, and Stover would be overridden by Lucas anyways if this was the case.

@Vaelias wrote:- George directly specifically noted to play a big role in character motivation
- The Anakin Supremacy passage is an integral part of the novel and Anakin's motivations meaning George will have specifically focused on that passage with Stover and in his edits

Doesn’t mean anything since you haven’t proven that Lucas wrote the line. Again, we already know that Lucas' line edits material he considers to be from a "parallel universe," so this doesn't mean anything.

@Vaelias wrote:- Line edits confirmed by Stover to be heavy
- Everyone in the company reading Anakin supremacy and nodding their heads

Doesn’t matter because as stated before Lucas giving the thumbs up on C-Canon material does not make it G-Canon.

III. Rebuttals Conclusion


Gillard’s word on his own without backing from Lucas is not G-Canon due to only Lucas’ word being definite G-Canon. Copy and pasting Gillard quotes on their own is useless until you can prove Lucas backed them. All we know for sure is that Lucas has worked under a tier system, but due to Gillard’s inconsistent portrayal of the tier system it’s hard to discern which tier is Lucas backed, which at best renders it ambiguous. Same goes for the tier theory, it’s ambiguous which tier system was Lucas approved, especially when using a tier system that best portrays Anakin.

After line editing the novel, Lucas still holds that the novels are not a part of his world, and thus not G-Canon, and contradicting anything anyone else says on the matter. Lucas’ line edits do not inherently mean that these are Lucas’ thoughts or ideas, this is proven by the fact that Lucas left a “fair amount of EU material” in while maintaining that the EU is a “parallel universe” from his own. Sansweet is contradicted by Lucas and even himself by saying that even though Lucas worked “closely” with the authors, the novels are only an “interpretation” of the films which are “absolute canon.” Chee, Rostani, Stover, and even yourself hold that the novelization is C-Canon. Lucas’ early drafts and revisions are not released to the public. No matter the amount of theorizing on what he revised, it ultimately remains ambiguous because they were “unpublished” meaning unavailable to the public.

The Revenge of the Sith novel specifically being told from the perspective of the Whills is retconned by Lucas himself saying he “dropped” this idea in favor of the Force. And even then, the quote is from Anakin’s perspective due to him “knowing” that he is the most powerful, he wouldn’t know of the power of a future Luke Skywalker.
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Last edited by EmperorCaedus on June 21st 2021, 5:32 pm; edited 3 times in total
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June 21st 2021, 2:02 am
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With rebuttals out of the way, let's move onto the power of Darth Caedus.

I. Power in the Force


Darth Caedus is more powerful than Darth Vader at the height of his powers during Operation Knightfall.

Wizards of the Coast wrote:"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"

II. Sabers


Caedus is also a better swordsman than Knightfall Vader.

Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:But he was still the best lightsaber swordsman around-excepting possibly Luke, perhaps the best there ever had been.

It’s important to note that Caedus has seen Vader at the height of his powers in action via Flow-walking and hologram.

Legacy of the Force: Bloodlines wrote:Jacen knew exactly where he was now, and it scared him. He had a finely tuned sense of where he was in space. Had he rolled back time by fifty-nine years to this exact distance from the planet's core, this exact distance from the planet's north pole, this very point in three dimensions, he would have been walking with his grandfather Anakin Skywalker.

But I can walk back in time.

Jacen could time-drift. He was almost too afraid to. But he did, almost without thinking. As he projected himself into the past and merged with its reality, he saw a young blond Jedi with his lightsaber drawn, flanked by troops in white armor. Jacen was looking at him from behind. He could see the muscles in his jaw twitching as his head turned, seeking something: he could feel his dread and determination.

Nobody spoke. They were searching, all of them looking to one side then the other, aiming rifles and lowering them a little. Something terrible was happening.

Anakin.

Anakin Skywalker held his lightsaber two-handed, and for a moment Jacen was one with his grandfather's emotions. He was overwhelmed by a dread and reluctance-the same dread and reluctance he had felt himself when Lumiya told him his destiny. Jacen felt, too, a crushing sense of something terrible and deadly about to happen.

He hung back. He'd been spotted while time-drifting before and had been forced to withdraw. But he had to stay with this. He hardly dared think ahead.

I might be able to ask him. I might be able to ask Grandfather about his own fall to the Sith.

This would be his answer about his own path.

He touched Anakin's emotions again, comparing them with his own, and then he felt something that was not within him at all: it was desperate, terrified loss. For a second he couldn't identify it. Then it settled and became clear in the form of a tight sensation in his throat and the pressure of tears behind his eyes that stung and burned. It was very like the brief misery he had felt when he left Tenel Ka and his daughter. Anakin was facing separation from Padme, and was terrified by it.

But it wasn't a moment's emotion for his grandfather: it was the whole of him. Anakin had been driven to the dark side by agonized love. The revelation stunned Jacen because it was so narrow and so ... selfish. Relief flooded him.

This is different. That isn't what I feel, or what's driving me.

And right then he wanted to talk to his grandfather more than anything he could imagine. It was a burst of love for a man he had never known-a man who had helped bring balance to the Force.

You're insane. You're going too far. Don't even think about influencing the past

But he had absolutely no idea what the past really was, right up to the point where he saw the younglings approach Anakin, scared but clutching their lightsabers, telling him there were too many soldiers for them to drive off. Anakin stared down at them. Then he drew his own saber and Jacen tasted absolute grief and shame and duty.

He was hunting Jedi. He was killing them somehow for Padme's sake. His reasoning was vivid and focused. Jacen knew that Anakin had done this, but seeing it-feeling it-living it-was agonizingly new and shocking because the emotion was so desperately animal in its intensity.

No, I'm not feeling this. It's one of Lumiya's vile tricks. I'm not seeing this.

Then one of the armored troopers appeared, raising his rifle, and Jacen jerked himself out of time and back to the present, heart pounding.

Grandfather…

Dark Nest II: The Unseen Queen wrote:But R2-D2's acoustic signaler began to emit the tinnypew-pew of recorded blasterfire. Stray dashes of blue began to streak through the hologram, blowing fountains apart, burning holes in the walls, vanishing into the heights of the vaulted ceiling.

Dozens of children, dressed in simple Jedi robes and wearing a single braid on the sides of their heads, began to retreat into the room. The youngest, those under six or seven, simply tried to run or find a place to hide. The older ones were attempting to fight, using the Force to hurl benches and pieces of broken fountain at their attackers. Some were firing captured blaster rifles, while a few were trying to use their newly constructed lightsabers to ricochet bolts at the unseen enemy. For the most part, they failed miserably but bravely, deflecting half a dozen or a dozen attacks before one sneaked through and knocked them off their feet.

The teenagers came next, backing into the room with their lightsabers whirling, weaving a wall of flashing energy before a column of advancing infantry. Dressed in what appeared to be early stormtrooper armor, the soldiers assaulted ruthlessly, cutting down fleeing four-year-olds with the same brutal efficiency with which they slaughtered the Padawans.

Han had been just a boy in Garris Shrike's band of vagabonds when the Separatists tried to break away from the Old Republic, but he had seen enough of the war to recognize the finned helmets and independent joint covers on the white armor the soldiers wore.

"Clone troopers!"

R2-D2 gave a confirming tweet.

A huge Jedi with stooped shoulders and a gnarled face backed into view, anchoring the line of teenage defenders, his lightsaber sending bolt after bolt back at the attackers, lashing out to cut down one trooper after another. A pair of Padawans stepped in to support his flanks, and the entire line stopped falling back, the lightsabers of the young Jedi weaving an impenetrable wall of energy that-for a few short moments-allowed nothing past, not a blaster bolt, nor a clone trooper, nor even, it seemed to Han, a stray glance.

A blue lightsaber appeared at the edge of the holo, beating down the defense of the first Padawan and slashing through his torso, then slipping past the guard of the other one and cutting him down as well. The back of a blond head and a pair of caped shoulders appeared behind the blue blade and began to carry the attack to the stoop-shouldered Jedi.

The two stood battling toe-to-toe for only an instant before the caped figure slipped a strike and brought his own blade down on the defender's stooped shoulder, cleaving him deep into the torso. The Jedi's gnarled face paled with shock, and he collapsed in too much pain to scream.


The Padawans continued to battle on valiantly, but without the burly Jedi to anchor their line, they were no match for the sheer numbers assaulting them. Their defense collapsed, and the caped figure stepped aside, standing in seeming indifference as the clone troopers poured past to continue the slaughter of the children.

Han felt sickened and angered by what he was watching, but he also felt a little bit relieved. Mara would have been only a baby-and perhaps not even that-when the Jedi were slaughtered. Whatever Alema hoped to reveal with the code sequence, the scene they were watching could have nothing to do with Mara.

Finally, the last of the children had fallen, and the clones stopped firing. The caped figure studied the room for a moment, then gave a barely perceptible nod and turned back toward the entrance. The face that stared into the cam was clouded with anger, the eyes sunken and dark, the mouth set in a grim slash, but there was no mistaking who it belonged to.

Anakin Skywalker.

The Jedi that Anakin was fighting in the hologram was Cin Drallig, who is stated to possess "unparalleled skill with a lightsaber" and is one of the order's "top swordsmen."

Star Wars: Force Collection wrote:Cin Drallig is honored with the mantle of both Chief of Security and Battlemaster for the Jedi Temple. His unparalleled skill with a lightsaber has benefited many a Jedi under his tutelage, including Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Cin_fr10

Not only that but it's confirmed Anakin has showcased his dueling prowess during Operation Knightfall.

Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Where Darth Sidious had gained everything, Vader had lost everything, including—for the moment, at least—the self-confidence and unbridled skill he had demonstrated as Anakin Skywalker.

Databank (old): Darth Vader wrote:Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

All this being said, Caedus would have more than an accurate gauge of Anakin’s dueling prowess.

III. Esoteric abilities


Caedus also has many esoteric abilities at his disposal. These abilities are powers "no Jedi has known for centuries, if ever."

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:They had learned much of what Jacen learned; skills that no other Jedi had known for centuries, if ever.

It’s important to note that this caps Luke Skywalker as of Ascension, who has Vader’s knowledge and as early as Dark Empire.

Dark Empire Endnotes wrote:Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.

But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.

Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.

--

Satisfied that his "young apprentice" has crossed the threshold from which there is no returning, the Emperor unveils his teaching, and Luke is given the knowledge that was bestowed on his father before him!

Foremost among these esoteric abilities at his disposal are two Aing-Tii techniques: Flow-walking and Fighting-sight. Flow-walking allows Caedus to travel into both the past and a large number of possible futures, as well as how actions he does or does not take affect those futures.

Legacy of the Force: Betrayal wrote:Frowning, Jacen cast out his senses like a net, sampling the present and the future. Pathways led in all directions, but in each of them one of the three people present fell dying. Jacen, head severed by a pliant whip of light. Lumiya, Nelani's lightsaber cutting her in half-lengthwise, so there was no chance of missing the organic parts. Nelani, her heart speared by Jacen's lightsaber. Jacen, stabbed from behind by Ben, the boy's uncomprehending features making it clear that he was seeing something very different from the reality before him. Lumiya, swept into a marble wall by Jacen's control of the Force, her skull shattered-Jacen shut his eyes against the parade of tragedy. He opened them to view reality. "You're right. I can't see a path that doesn't lead to death. Let's revise our circumstances and see if any more options open to us in a minute or two."

It's also noteworthy to mention that Flow-walking is combat-applicable.

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Aing_t10

Aing-Tii Fighting-sight is essentially a highly accurate form of precognition, which Caedus has proven himself able to use.

Legacy of the Force: Invincible wrote:Caedus felt a boot slam into his ribs-an instant before he saw it coming with his Aing-Tii fighting-sight-and the breath left his lungs.

Fighting-sight was also put on display by Jedi Knight Jysella Horn, which surpasses even Luke Skywalker’s precognition. Caedus by being more powerful and skillful than Horn would use fighting-sense to an even higher ability than she does.

Fate of the Jedi: Omen wrote:What he saw next he couldn't believe. A Ramoan whom he recognized as a Jedi Knight charged forward. He was suddenly slammed into by a fleeing pedestrian and, apparently caught unawares by the impact, stumbled several steps to the side.

And that was precisely where Jysella leapt even before he'd begun moving. Her lightsaber came down in a blur of motion, and Jysella shrieked, "It's not you!"

"Pause," Luke said. The recording stopped obediently. "Replay." Both Skywalkers watched the encounter again. Ben felt a shiver chase up and down his spine.

Flow-walking. This was more than Force anticipation.

The fight continued. Ben realized that Cilghal was right. At every turn, Jysella predicted exactly where Barv would be. Sometimes she seemed to be two steps ahead. Ben had never seen that kind of Force anticipation, not even from his father.

Side note: While Luke and Ben identify this ability as Flow-walking due to their inexperience with the Aing-Tii, the ability used here accords with the description of Fighting-sight.

IV. Conclusion


Darth Caedus is a superior duelist and is more powerful in the Force than Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader. On top of that Caedus has combat-applicable teleportation and highly advanced and accurate precognition (on top of the superior precognition he gets due to being more powerful) that Anakin has no knowledge of how to counter.

Caedus takes this.
The Eternal
The Eternal

SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)

June 21st 2021, 4:56 am
Interesting debate. Keep it going.
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SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)  Empty Re: SS - Darth Caedus (EmperorCaedus / Prez) vs Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)

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