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Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 6:40 pm
Hello everyone,

There have been some misconceptions in the past arguing that Nihilus may not be able to Force Drain someone who is more powerful than he is simply due to superiority. In this thread, I will be going through this and showing why this is not true by drawing on 2 cases: The Dark Reaper events and Abeloth’s fight with Luke/Krayt.

1. The Dark Reaper

The Dark Reaper’s events bring in a lot of evidence that show that Force Drain is not something that you can just resist by simply being a powerful Force user and that you need to learn how to resist it. Note the following dialogue:

Obi Wan: “How was the Reaper defeated?”

Mace Windu: “A fallen Jedi knight named Ulic Qel-Droma taught the Jedi how to withstand the Reaper’s effects. After the war, all information about the Reaper including Ulic’s secrets were lost.

-Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Video game)

The above mentions that the Jedi had to be taught a certain technique to be able to resist the Reaper’s Force Drain effects and notes that ‘Ulic’s Secrets’ were lost, which includes the technique that he taught to resist the effects.


This is further supported again when Anakin meets Ulic Qel-Droma. Note the following:

Anakin: “Ulic Qel-Droma you defeated the Dark Reaper during the Sith war. Show me how to stop it again.”

Ulic Qel-Droma: “Yes I can teach you to harness the power of the Force around you making you immune to the Dark Reaper’s effects for a short time but this knowledge comes at great risk.”

Anakin: “I am willing to take that risk.”

Ulic Qel-Droma: “The knowledge you seek is very powerful Anakin Skywalker. Use it carefully or it will lead you to the dark side.”

-Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Video game)

When Count Dooku learned of the Dark Reaper, he sought to capture it in his war against the Republic. He based his operations on Raxus Prime while he searched for the Force Harvester. Anakin Skywalker, however, discovered the secret to defeating the Dark Reaper from a hologram of Ulic Qel-Droma on Rhen Var.”

-Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia

Again, the above dialogue and quote make it very clear that Anakin had to be taught a certain technique by Ulic which then allowed him to harness the Force around him in order to resist the Reaper’s effects. Ulic also talks about the ‘knowledge’ that Anakin seeks further showing that Force Drain cannot simply be resisted regardless of how powerful you may be. You need certain knowledge and technique.

 
Finally, note the following dialogue as well before Anakin confronts the Reaper:

Obi Wan: “Anakin I am on my way with reinforcements. Wait for me before you try to tackle that thing.”

Anakin: “Don’t bother Master. Anyone who comes near the Reaper will be killed instantlyI am the only one who is immune. Besides, you heard Master Yoda. It’s my destiny.”

-Star Wars: The Clone Wars (Video game)
 
It is clearly noted that Anakin is the only one who is capable of destroying the Reaper and that anyone else would be killed instantly as Anakin is the only one that is immune. This means that Yoda, Mace and Obi Wan, some of the most powerful Jedi, would not be able to stop the Reaper further indicating that resisting Force Drain is something that has to be taught and that simply being a very powerful Force user is irrelevant to being able to resist this type of Drain. Otherwise, Yoda and Mace would have been able to tackle the Reaper. Yet, Anakin is the only one that is capable, despite being inferior to Yoda and Mace, since he is the only one that was taught such knowledge/technique. This makes it very clear that knowledge and technique is required to resist Force Drain.


2. Abeloth’s Fight

The following fight shows that even someone as extremely powerful as Abeloth can be Force Drained, without proper knowledge/technique to resist Force Drain, by someone who is way inferior such as Krayt.

“Then Luke felt an icy twinge between his shoulder blades. The twinge became a sting, and he began to feel something cold flowing down the center of his back. His first thought was Abeloth, that she had sunk a tentacle into his spine—until the lashing of her tentacles slowed and she began to shudder.

Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up on his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.”

“Despite the Sith’s words, the cold stinging inside began to subside, and Luke realized the stranger was not pulling as hard. Abeloth continued to struggle, slipping a pair of tentacles around Luke’s throat and trying to tear herself free. But she was growing weak faster than Luke.”

“The draining seemed to continue for days; then the stranger threw back his head and screamed in anguish, and it suddenly seemed that only a breath had passed. Shiny black Force energy began to pour from the Sith’s wounds into the lake, spreading outward around them in an oily slick so hot the water began to steam and hiss. Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed—the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.”

-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

The above describes Krayt as using a ‘Force-draining technique’ with Abeloth beginning to get weaker and weaker as her tentacles being to slow down, she starts to shudder and continues struggling as Krayt seems to get stronger through his Force Drain. Krayt continues to Drain Abeloth for what ‘seemed to continue for days’. Krayt, despite being a clear vast inferior to someone like Abeloth, is able to continually Drain Abeloth despite being in anguish. This clearly shows that being powerful does not mean that you would be able to resist Force Drain even to someone who is way inferior in power. Again, this further shows that knowledge and technique is needed.

 
As a matter of fact, Krayt even begins Force Draining Luke who is vastly superior to him as well:

“Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith’s hand, now pointed at Luke’s chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke.

They stayed like that for an eternity, a void of cold nothingness growing inside Luke as the stranger continued to hang in the air above, draining him. It seemed to Luke that the Sith’s betrayal was premature, that they at least ought to make certain Abeloth was truly dead before they turned to fighting each other … but that was not the way Sith did things.”

-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

Luke being a clear superior to Krayt and yet he is still getting Force Drained by him and a ‘void of cold nothingness’ begins to grow inside Luke and it seemed like they stayed ‘for an eternity’. Luke being a vast superior did not somehow allow him to resist Krayt’s Force Drain which further disproves the idea that Force Drain can somehow be resisted by being a powerful or more powerful Force user than the person applying it.

 
3. The Force Drain

Finally, I will just be showing, without too much detail, that Nihilus, Krayt and the Dark Reaper all Force Drain in a similar fashion; by absorbing and consuming Force Energy.

[Nihilus]
 
"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet.
 
―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
 
"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."
 
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords


[Krayt]
 
“The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark fume swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.”
 
“Then she was gone, leaving the stranger and Luke with nothing between them but twenty centimeters of space and the stump of the Sith’s hand, now pointed at Luke’s chest and still drawing Force energy, draining it not from Abeloth now, but directly from Luke.
 
- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse


[The Dark Reaper]

Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Pictur13Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Pictur12


-Star Wars The Complete Encyclopedia

Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Pictur14


Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Pictur15

Notice the underlined parts where Nihilus, Krayt and the Dark Reaper all consume and absorb Force Energies from their victims indicating that a similar Force Draining technique is being used in all cases.
 
All of the above discussions and points make it very clear that being a powerful Force user or a more powerful Force user than the person applying Force Drain is irrelevant to being able to resist it. Knowledge and technique is required to resist such Drain irrespective of superiority.

Thank you for reading  Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... 1289255181.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
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Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Re: Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 6:50 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Great post, wouldn’t save Nihilus from the all-encompassing light that would await him if he were to face Master Ry Gaul
Bart
Bart
Moderator
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Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Re: Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 9:20 pm
I honestly don't think the Reaper's Drain works like Nihilus's one.

The effects are similar, sure, since, well, Drain is gonna... drain Force energy. Nothing you underlined here says about any similarities in the technique, it's just obvious, general text about the Force being stripped from the target entirely. But that's just what any kind of Force Drain does in the end. "Draining" an energy, a fluid, or whatever... means you take it until it's gone and isn't there anymore, lol.

Any Drain has the similar ending effect; Traya's, Nihilus's, Vitiate's, Reaper's.

So that part really doesn't strike me as convincing, sorry.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Re: Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 10:23 pm
@Bart wrote:I honestly don't think the Reaper's Drain works like Nihilus's one.

The effects are similar, sure, since, well, Drain is gonna... drain Force energy. Nothing you underlined here says about any similarities in the technique, it's just obvious, general text about the Force being stripped from the target entirely. But that's just what any kind of Force Drain does in the end. "Draining" an energy, a fluid, or whatever... means you take it until it's gone and isn't there anymore, lol.

Any Drain has the similar ending effect; Traya's, Nihilus's, Vitiate's, Reaper's.

So that part really doesn't strike me as convincing, sorry.

Just to clarify, are you saying that all kinds of Drain are the same or that Nihilus's specific Force Drain is different than the Reaper's specific Force Drain?
Bart
Bart
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Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Re: Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 10:30 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
All kinds of Drain are the same as far as end result if accomplished 100% is concerned. All kinds of Drain end up with the results looking like in the scans you provided. So it means nothing in judging if Repear's/Nihilus's Drain work the same. Results are always the same.

Now whether the two Drains are different? I would wager so, but it's based just on the fact Nihilus seems to be... way more primal. He seems to be not just a Force Drain user, but kinda a living epitome of a Force Drain, Force black hole so to speak. I definitely see a reason to consider his Force Drain something entirely different. Even then, it would actually help the case you're making, not diminish it. If you take that reasoning, it's even more inline with the no-defense issue. But it's just a theory based on the overall atmosphere of how Nihilus is written.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work... Empty Re: Why resisting Nihilus's Force Drain by simply being more Powerful Won't Work...

November 11th 2020, 11:44 pm
@Bart wrote:All kinds of Drain are the same as far as end result if accomplished 100% is concerned. All kinds of Drain end up with the results looking like in the scans you provided. So it means nothing in judging if Repear's/Nihilus's Drain work the same. Results are always the same.

Now whether the two Drains are different? I would wager so, but it's based just on the fact Nihilus seems to be... way more primal. He seems to be not just a Force Drain user, but kinda a living epitome of a Force Drain, Force black hole so to speak. I definitely see a reason to consider his Force Drain something entirely different. Even then, it would actually help the case you're making, not diminish it. If you take that reasoning, it's even more inline with the no-defense issue. But it's just a theory based on the overall atmosphere of how Nihilus is written.

I do get the point you are making and I do think that it can be read both ways. It can be read as saying that both (Nihilus and Reaper) Drain Force energies as the end-result of their techniques OR it can be read as the way they actually Drain (meaning that the technique itself is the consumption of Force energies).

The thing is I think that the scans seem to be describing how the Reaper works rather than the end results. We all know that the Reaper ends up killing people and those scans seem more like they are describing how it does so. They seem to be describing how the Reaper functions: by Draining the Force energy of people and thereby kill them. And this is exactly how Nihilus’s technique is also described: by directly draining Force energies. Now if the way Nihilus drains those Force energies is different than the way the Reaper drains those Force energies, then we can’t really tell and there isn’t really a lot of evidence to support that other than maybe for example when Nihilus drained Katarr, he did so through a Black Cloud which might resemble a different technique than the Reaper.

Most of what we have is both being described to function or do the same thing, which is absorb Force energies and note that this is different than Life Drain which directly saps Life Energies rather than Force energies. Life Drain does not consume Force energies and so would not be described in the same way as Force Drain (or the scans). On the other hand, Nihilus Force Drains users by consuming/devouring the Force connections of people and consuming the Force energy of his victims which is then used to sustain his life energies. This is one of the main differences between Life Drain and Force drain. Life drain directly saps life energies only while Force Drain directly saps Force energies which then is used to sustain/feed on the life energies from the death caused by devouring the Force energies. This is also how the Reaper is described: “stripped the Force from all living things and stored their life energies until needed by the Dark Reaper”. This seems to be a further analogy between Nihilus and the Reaper.

It is also worth noting that Ulic is an ancient Sith and Nihilus’s Force Drain technique has been specifically said to have been known by the Ancient Sith which could explain why Ulic had known/figured out how to resist the Reaper’s effects and could make it more plausible that Nihilus and the Reaper Drain in a similar fashion.

But then I don’t really think this is an issue as it doesn’t affect the idea/goal of the thread either way.
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