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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 21:44
What the title says. How does a Force ghost compare in power to when they were alive? Can they be more powerful, or are they always weaker in a combative sense? Valkorion for example was a lot weaker, whereas someone like Obi-Wan seemed to be as strong or even stronger than he was when he was alive, albeit limited by the will of the Force and his tenuous position in retaining his identity instead of becoming one with the Force.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 21:57
The spirit is where all the Force power of the user resides. The body is merely a vessel. The reason Valkorion appeared weaker was because he couldn't manifest his abilities through the Outlander to their fullest as he was an inadequate vessel (until chapter 12).

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How powerful can Force ghosts be? Sheev_sig_3
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:10
Are we even sure that whatever Valkorion was is the same thing as a force ghost?

Onslaught spoilers:

In the leaks for the upcoming expansion it's stated that Valkorion had an anchor body that was tethering him to the physical world.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:20
Jeez, how many times will they revive Vitiate in SWTOR, it was cool in KOTFE and KOTET, but now it's just beating a dead horse. I swear to god, if Revan is still alive in an actual body, I will go batshit. Though force ghost Revan doing powerful shit would be cool.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:37
SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:49
@HellfireUnit wrote:SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
You are really determined to make me dislike your views as much as possible, aren’t you?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:50
@Praxis wrote:Are we even sure that whatever Valkorion was is the same thing as a force ghost?

Onslaught spoilers:

In the leaks for the upcoming expansion it's stated that Valkorion had an anchor body that was tethering him to the physical world.
Jedipedia? Cos this sounds awesome. 

Well we know he’s not coming back so maybe we’ll finally get to see his original physical body instead of one of his hosts or Voices.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:52
Azronger wrote:The spirit is where all the Force power of the user resides. The body is merely a vessel. The reason Valkorion appeared weaker was because he couldn't manifest his abilities through the Outlander to their fullest as he was an inadequate vessel (until chapter 12).
So I assume it’s the will of the Force that stops super powerful Force users like Yoda or Luke from coming back and killing Vader/Sidious and Krayt, respectively? 

I’m curious though: do they become more powerful in the actual process?
Praxis
Praxis
Moderator
Moderator

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 22:57
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Praxis wrote:Are we even sure that whatever Valkorion was is the same thing as a force ghost?

Onslaught spoilers:

In the leaks for the upcoming expansion it's stated that Valkorion had an anchor body that was tethering him to the physical world.
Jedipedia? Cos this sounds awesome. 

Well we know he’s not coming back so maybe we’ll finally get to see his original physical body instead of one of his hosts or Voices.

Onslaught spoilers:

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Unknown

Source: https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-old-republic-mmo-the-new-official-thread.50004324/page-265#post-55991503

Everything that the user has leaked so far has lined up with the stuff that has showed up on the PTS. There is also this: https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/qst/the-lingering-darkness
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 23:25
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
You are really determined to make me dislike your views as much as possible, aren’t you?

Well at the end of the day, we are all unique people with different perspectives and likes/dislikes towards many other things. Life would not be great if we agreed on everything mate. Regardless, I like your views BoD.

About SWTOR, it is poorly written and ruined many characters including Revan and Exile.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 23:33
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
You are really determined to make me dislike your views as much as possible, aren’t you?

Well at the end of the day, we are all unique people with different perspectives and likes/dislikes towards many other things. Life would not be great if we agreed on everything mate. Regardless, I like your views BoD.

About SWTOR, it is poorly written and ruined many characters including Revan and Exile.
Sorry, was meant as a joke, lol. I think it did ruin Revan but it definitely didn't ruin Meetra. Plus, it gave us Valkorion, Marr, Lana and Theron, so it evens out. SWTOR is pretty well written considering the fact that they don't exactly have a lot to work with beyond their own developments, which is incredibly difficult to get people invested in. The KOTOR games are far from flawless, either. I absolutely hated the combat system. It was boring, repetitive and above all, slow.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 23:35
@Praxis wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@Praxis wrote:Are we even sure that whatever Valkorion was is the same thing as a force ghost?

Onslaught spoilers:

In the leaks for the upcoming expansion it's stated that Valkorion had an anchor body that was tethering him to the physical world.
Jedipedia? Cos this sounds awesome. 

Well we know he’s not coming back so maybe we’ll finally get to see his original physical body instead of one of his hosts or Voices.

Onslaught spoilers:

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Unknown

Source: https://boards.theforce.net/threads/the-old-republic-mmo-the-new-official-thread.50004324/page-265#post-55991503

Everything that the user has leaked so far has lined up with the stuff that has showed up on the PTS. There is also this: https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/qst/the-lingering-darkness

This is amazing, thanks. They're actually giving us a mission with those two? Looks like Charles is finally listening to people's requests on how to handle character returns. Nice to see there's a genuine reason for them being away and BW are finally listening to the players more.

I'm just hyped to see how powerful Kira's become. Not just anyone can survive a confrontation with chained Vaylin and escape. Nice feat for Satele there too, but it's a shame that we won't see Tenebrae's original body. I was always curious what it looked like based on the descriptions from different sources.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Sun 22 Sep - 23:42
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
You are really determined to make me dislike your views as much as possible, aren’t you?

Well at the end of the day, we are all unique people with different perspectives and likes/dislikes towards many other things. Life would not be great if we agreed on everything mate. Regardless, I like your views BoD.

About SWTOR, it is poorly written and ruined many characters including Revan and Exile.
Sorry, was meant as a joke, lol. I think it did ruin Revan but it definitely didn't ruin Meetra. Plus, it gave us Valkorion, Marr, Lana and Theron, so it evens out. SWTOR is pretty well written considering the fact that they don't exactly have a lot to work with beyond their own developments, which is incredibly difficult to get people invested in. The KOTOR games are far from flawless, either. I absolutely hated the combat system. It was boring, repetitive and above all, slow.

Yeah, Marr and few other character are gems. But I think SWTOR, KOTFE, KOTET in general are in a huge mess. About KOTOR, I agree that gameplay mechanics can be a huge pain in the ass for most people, but what makes KOTOR great is the storyline, characters and that interactive world. It is simply amazing. Considering the year it came out, it is also quite good IMO. By the way I am a huge fan of original Fallout and turn based combat system therefore it didn't bother me at all, rather I enjoyed the d20 real time combat system. But then again, it is very limited and repetitive as you said.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Mon 23 Sep - 10:02
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@BreakofDawn wrote:
Azronger wrote:The spirit is where all the Force power of the user resides. The body is merely a vessel. The reason Valkorion appeared weaker was because he couldn't manifest his abilities through the Outlander to their fullest as he was an inadequate vessel (until chapter 12).
So I assume it’s the will of the Force that stops super powerful Force users like Yoda or Luke from coming back and killing Vader/Sidious and Krayt, respectively? 

I’m curious though: do they become more powerful in the actual process?

Jedi spirits and Sith spirits are different. Sith spirits try to cling to life while the void attempts to pull them in, so they usually become trapped between the two realms, requiring an anchor that is strong in the Force to subsist and influence the physical world. Jedi spirits willingly merge with the Cosmic Force, but they can retain their individuality and consciousness through a special technique and continue to guide the living. However, even their connection to the physical world will wane over time.

Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.


Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

For while toppling the Jedi Order and the Republic was essential to the task of restoring order to the galaxy, that goal belonged to the realm of the ordinary—to the world that was nothing more than a byproduct of the eternal struggle between the light and dark forces, both of which were beyond any concepts of good or evil. The greater goal of the Sith involved toppling the Force itself, and becoming the embodiment of the galaxy’s animating principle.

It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings. But many Sith viewed the notion with disdain, for the theoretical existence of such a group had little bearing on the goal of making the Force subservient to the will of an enlightened elite. Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing, and now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to become peaceful, could he—with a mere suggestion—accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midi-chlorians to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?


Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

“Luke?”

The voice came softly but insistently. Pausing amid the familiar landscape of Tatooine—familiar, yet oddly distorted—Luke Skywalker turned to look.
An equally familiar figure stood there watching him. “Hello, Ben,” Luke said, his voice sounding sluggish in his ears. “Been a long time.”

“It has indeed,” Obi-Wan Kenobi said gravely. “And I’m afraid that it will be longer still until the next time. I’ve come to say good-bye, Luke.”

The landscape seemed to tremble; and abruptly, a small part of Luke’s mind remembered that he was asleep. Asleep in his suite in the Imperial Palace, and dreaming of Ben Kenobi.

“No, I’m not a dream,” Ben assured him, answering Luke’s unspoken thought. “But the distances separating us have become too great for me to appear to you in any other way. Now, even this last path is being closed to me.”

“No,” Luke heard himself say. “You can’t leave us, Ben. We need you.”

Ben’s eyebrows lifted slightly, and a hint of his old smile touched his lips. “You don’t need me, Luke. You are a Jedi, strong in the Force.” The smile faded, and for a moment his eyes seemed to focus on something Luke couldn’t see. “At any rate,” he added quietly, “the decision is not mine to make. I have lingered too long already, and can no longer postpone my journey from this life to what lies beyond.”

A memory stirred: Yoda on his deathbed, and Luke pleading with him not to die. Strong am I in the Force, the Jedi Master had told him softly. But not that strong.

“It is the pattern of all life to move on,” Ben reminded him. “You, too, will face this same journey one day.” Again, his attention drifted away, then returned. “You are strong in the Force, Luke, and with perseverance and discipline you will grow stronger still.” His gaze hardened. “But you must never relax your guard. The Emperor is gone, but the dark side is still powerful. Never forget that.”

“I won’t,” Luke promised.

Ben’s face softened, and again he smiled. “You will yet face great dangers, Luke,” he said. “But you will also find new allies, at times and places where you expect them least.”

“New allies?” Luke echoed. “Who are they?”

The vision seemed to waver and become fainter. “And now, farewell,” Ben said, as if he hadn’t heard the question. “I loved you as a son, and as a student, and as a friend. Until we meet again, may the Force be with you.”

“Ben—!”

But Ben turned, and the image faded … and in the dream, Luke knew he was gone. Then I am alone, he told himself. I am the last of the Jedi.

He seemed to hear Ben’s voice, faint and indistinct, as if from a great distance. “Not the last of the old Jedi, Luke. The first of the new.”


Star Wars: Heir to the Empire

As for power levels, the strength of Sith spirits is entirely contingent on the strength of their anchor - they can be weaker or stronger than they were in life depending on circumstances. Jedi spirits do technically become more powerful since they're connected to the totality of the Force but they rarely do anything other than communicate with the living. I assume this is because they only follow the will of the Force at that point and have left all personal desires behind.



Beyond the transparent crystal of the observation dome on the airless crags of Polis Massa, the galaxy wheeled in a spray of hard, cold pinpricks through the veil of infinite night.

Beneath that dome sat Yoda. He did not look at the stars.

He sat a very long time.

Even after nearly nine hundred years, the road to self-knowledge was rugged enough to leave him bruised and bleeding.

He spoke softly, but not to himself.

Though no one was with him, he was not alone.

“My failure, this was. Failed the Jedi, I did.”

He spoke to the Force.

And the Force answered him.
Do not blame yourself, my old friend.

As it sometimes had these past thirteen years, when the Force spoke to him, it spoke in the voice of Qui-Gon Jinn.

“Too old I was,” Yoda said. “Too rigid. Too arrogant to see that the old way is not the only way. These Jedi, I trained to become the Jedi who had trained me, long centuries ago—but those ancient Jedi, of a different time they were. Changed, has the galaxy. Changed, the Order did not—because let it change, I did not.”


More easily said than done, my friend.

“An infinite mystery is the Force.” Yoda lifted his head and turned his gaze out into the wheel of stars. “Much to learn, there still is.”

And you will have time to learn it.

“Infinite knowledge …” Yoda shook his head. “Infinite time, does that require.”

With my help, you can learn to join with the Force, yet retain consciousness. You can join your light to it forever. Perhaps, in time, even your physical self.

Yoda did not move. “Eternal life …”

The ultimate goal of the Sith, yet they can never achieve it; it comes only by the release of self, not the exaltation of self. It comes through compassion, not greed. Love is the answer to the darkness.

“Become one with the Force, yet influence still to have …” Yoda mused. “A power greater than all, it is.”

It cannot be granted; it can only be taught. It is yours to learn, if you wish it.

Slowly, Yoda nodded. “A very great Jedi Master you have become, Qui-Gon Jinn. A very great Jedi Master you always were, but too blind I was to see it.”

He rose, and folded his hands before him, and inclined his head in the Jedi bow of respect.

The bow of the student, in the presence of the Master.

“Your apprentice, I gratefully become.”


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization
Harbinger Kallig
Harbinger Kallig

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Mon 23 Sep - 13:32
@HellfireUnit wrote:SWTOR is a failure and should be completely non-canon even in EU. Give us KOTOR 3 instead.
No, its actually a pretty good game with crazy amounts of world-building, good class stories that let you play as most of the main archetypes in Star Wars and top-notch voice-acting. Just because you dislike it doesn't make it bad, KOTOR 3 wouldn't have happened anyway because it was already cancelled by the time SWTOR entered production.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Tue 24 Sep - 22:35
SWTOR is actually kind of fun.

Also, nobody really recognizes this, but technically SoR Revan is a force ghost. He’s reanimating his old body, but he’s still a spirit.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Wed 25 Sep - 8:48
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
IdrisianGraecus wrote:SWTOR is actually kind of fun.

Also, nobody really recognizes this, but technically SoR Revan is a force ghost. He’s reanimating his old body, but he’s still a spirit.

Everyone is technically a spirit animating a vessel.
Harbinger Kallig
Harbinger Kallig

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Wed 25 Sep - 13:59
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:SWTOR is actually kind of fun.

Also, nobody really recognizes this, but technically SoR Revan is a force ghost. He’s reanimating his old body, but he’s still a spirit.

Everyone is technically a spirit animating a vessel.
You're not wrong.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

How powerful can Force ghosts be? Empty Re: How powerful can Force ghosts be?

on Wed 25 Sep - 14:27
@Harbinger Kallig wrote:
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:SWTOR is actually kind of fun.

Also, nobody really recognizes this, but technically SoR Revan is a force ghost. He’s reanimating his old body, but he’s still a spirit.

Everyone is technically a spirit animating a vessel.
You're not wrong.
No, he's not. But I meant that Force Ghost usually refers to the dead, and both Light and Dark Revan were dead. Dark Revan was literally just forcing his dead body to move. Living characters aren't force ghosts.
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