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Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era.

on September 24th 2020, 4:59 pm
@ReaperAce:

Vader is confirmed to be less powerful than Jinn by a C-Canon source with greater validity than Nick. His belief that he has a good measure of Kar does not mean he has the authority to override an OOU quote.

Moreover:

George Lucas wrote:I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

George agrees with the POV proposed in the linked statement. Given his word is final via the Canon policy there's really nothing left to say.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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on September 24th 2020, 5:22 pm
The power of the Force-user originates from the spirit. Vader's existing power technically shouldn't have been diminished unless he sustained spiritual wounds as well (which he may have). Palpatine at the very least initially believed it was simply a matter of mindset for Vader in spite of his ruined soma.

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Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 24th 2020, 8:42 pm
I never really bought into the whole cybernetics diminishing power thing. Yeah so Vader became crippled and couldn't achieve his potential...so? In fact that quote people like to put forth, never does Lucas say that the cybernetics are the reasons, all he says is that Vader couldn't achieve his potential...so it very well could have also been a mental thing just as well.

Also if cybernetics hampered a Force User, then explain Force Users getting cybernetics and their power either not diminishing or hell even growing stronger? Couple of examples being High Inquisitor Antinnis Tremayne or that one Sith in the Jedi Knight(?) storyline of TOR where he kept coming back and having more cybernetics and was far stronger than before. Can't recall his name.

I'm sure there are some other examples and I think Plagueis also talked about something of cybernetics not being a Force power hinderance.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

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on September 24th 2020, 9:05 pm
[size=34]George agrees with the POV proposed in the linked statement. Given his word is final via the Canon policy there's really nothing left to say[/size]
Well tbf, LFL policy is no longer the default methodology on SI. If people want George to fuck off because he's a retard who doesn't believe in sith spirits, they can as long as they consistently don't use George. Which means they can't use the 80% quote or the like Maul or Dooku quote to wank Vader Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 3344068304
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

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on September 24th 2020, 9:32 pm
TPM Kenobi Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 2266747095
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 Empty Re: Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era.

on September 24th 2020, 11:00 pm
@KingOfBlades: LFL policy adds greater objectivity to debating imo. Tossing it out is obvious bias at work.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

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on September 24th 2020, 11:32 pm
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@KingOfBlades: LFL policy adds greater objectivity to debating imo. Tossing it out is obvious bias at work.
Why does it add greater objectivity? And why does tossing it out indicate bias? is it biased to conclude giving George Word of God authority when some of the things he says are demonstrably incompatible with the EU isn't the way to go about this?
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 24th 2020, 11:47 pm
@Sjuttiosju
Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 Annota10

IIRC Vader was a Sith, or is that contradicted by GL quotes too?
This quote is specifically talking about Jedi's as in "The Jedi " would "Demonstrate" more power and agility than "They " had.
And more importantly, Demonstrate per Cambridge dictionary means "to show something" so this quote translates to:
"The Jedi " would "Show" more power and agility than "They" had "Shown" in the classic trilogy.
Which doesn't even remotely say they are more powerful, they only will show more power mostly because they have better technology now so they will make better combat scenes.

George Lucas wrote:
I was looking for a kind of sword fighting that was reminiscent of what was in the movies that we’d already done, but a more energized version of it. Because we’d never seen real Jedi’s at work, we’d only seen, you know, old men and crippled, half-droid, half-men and young boys that had learned from these people. So, to see a Jedi fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we’ve been doing.

He's constantly talking about the energy and speed of the fighting and then goes out of his way to reference the age and physical state of Vader and Kenobi. To conclude that he's talking about fighting prowess and power level is the height of insanity.
Even if GL comes out and says "No I am talking about power" and we accept all there is and was from GL quotes, it makes a crazy house, for example :

We all know two of the most popular GL quotes on Vader,
1-Vader is "Maybe 20% less powerful than Sidious"
2- Ben Kenobi "maybe was a 6" and Vader "was maybe a 4"
So, Ben is a 6 and Vader is a 4  which makes Ben exactly 20 percent more powerful than Vader and makes him on par with Sidious, and per your view on the Lucas quotes about the PT era every Jedi from the OT is sub-Jinn so with simple ABC logic (more logical than your views tbh) that makes:
Jinn>Ben~Sidious>Vader
To make matter worse you can bring in Maul  and make it Maul>Jinn>Ben~Sidious
and then you can shit all over "The Most Powerful Sith Lord" quotes  because it's cOntrAdiCted bY GeOrgE's sEntiMentS oN tHE suBjeCT

From this, we learn GL isn't very good with words regarding power scales, his quotes are a mess and should be ONLY used for his movies and materials directly under his supervision and creation, and not the EU. especially since he most likely didn't have a plan for anything even for his movies after ANH, his quotes have an expiration date. He views the EU as a parallel universe and didn't have a plan for it nor he was interested in it noting that he told the Insider Vader hasn't fought any force wielder in many years before Ben when in truth he fought Dark Woman shortly before the battle of Yavin.


Last edited by ReaperAce on September 25th 2020, 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

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on September 25th 2020, 1:08 am
@ReaperAce:

IIRC Vader was a Sith, or is that contradicted by GL quotes too? more probably you didn't even notice while you were too busy celebrating that you found something new to lowball Vader and you have a purpose in life again.

Vader is a sith. However Luke, his match according to OOU quotes, is a Jedi, and thus Vader is still capped under Jinn. As far as my motives here are concerned, Vader is one of my favourite characters in the mythos, and if you check my posting history from late 2018 on KMC to now on SI you'll find a generally favourable opinion of him. I only folded once the pile of evidence against everyone's favourite cyborg grew so big I couldn't feasibly argue for him to be high. Let's not play the bias card, it gets you nowhere, and is quite frankly insulting.

This quote is specifically talking about Jedi's as in "The Jedi " would "Demonstrate" more power and agility than "They " had.
And more importantly, you really need to work on your English man cause even my brain-damaged parrot knows what demonstrate means. Demonstrate per Cambridge dictionary means "to show something" so this quote translates to:
"The Jedi " would "Show" more power and agility than "They" had "Shown" in the classic trilogy.

I know full well what demonstrate means thank you. Moreover, I'm not going to be lectured on my ability to interpret sentences constructed from the English language by a newbie when I've been debating semantics on similar quotes for 2 years, especially given your argumentation below is ridiculously paper thin.

Which doesn't even remotely say they are more powerful, they only will show more power mostly because they have better technology now so they will make better combat scenes.

The out of universe reason for them demonstrating greater power doesn't alter the ramifications of it IU, so I've no clue what your point is here.

He's constantly talking about the energy and speed of the fighting and then goes out of his way to reference the age and physical state of Vader and Kenobi. To conclude that he's talking about fighting prowess and power level is the height of insanity.

He's referencing age, physical state and speed within the context of combat (and all of the aforementioned are tied to power via force augmentation). How is it insane to conclude from that that he views the PT warriors as superior?

We all know two of the most popular GL quotes on Vader,

Lucas's old levelling system is actively contradicted and extremely outdated. His musings on Vader are not.

From this, we learn GL isn't very good with words regarding power scales, his quotes are a mess

Which means we evaluate them on a case by case basis, not arbitrarily dismiss huge swathes of them.


Last edited by Sjuttiosju on September 29th 2020, 10:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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on September 25th 2020, 9:15 am
@Sjuttiosju @ReaperAce Calm down, no need for insults.

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ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 25th 2020, 11:25 am
@Sjuttiosju
Before I start my answer, I need to apologize cause I was in a very bad mood last night for personal reasons, so If I said anything to insult or offend you I take it back and I will edit my statement right now.
After all, I have high respect for you even from your early days as DC77.

The out of universe reason for them demonstrating greater power doesn't alter the ramifications of it IU, so I've no clue what your point is here.

I said what he is most probably referring to, my point is this quote only says they will show more power, not they are more powerful. which can have many in-universe reasons, Like Ben throwing his fight with Vader, Vader holding back and toying with ESB Luke, Vader and Luke both holding back while the former was conflicted too.

He's referencing age, physical state and speed within the context of combat (and all of the aforementioned are tied to power via force augmentation). How is it insane to conclude from that that he views the PT warriors as superior?

Ok did I miss sth or you can become younger "Old men" or grow limbs "Half droid half men" with Force augmentations? seeing GL's examples for his quote as well as him stating "energetic" more than once makes it completely obvious he is just referencing the physical state not power level cause If that was the case Yoda and The Count wouldn't one-shot 99 percent of the Jedi order.

Lucas's old levelling system is actively contradicted and extremely outdated. His musings on Vader are not.

How is it not when he is first 20% sub-Ben "a broken old man" ( as he says I am not agreeing with that) then all of a sudden 20% sub-Sidious "the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of Star Wars"?

Which means we evaluate them on a case by case basis, not arbitrarily dismiss huge swathes of them.

Or the better way is, not to use his mess of words as the Bible of Star Wars cause they are mostly not compatible with the Star Wars EU and leave them for his movies only.

and once again my apologies for my previous post.
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 25th 2020, 11:57 am
@Master Azronger wrote:@Sjuttiosju @ReaperAce Calm down, no need for insults.

Yeah, I was out of line, I had a very bad day.
Won't happen again chief.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

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on September 26th 2020, 4:36 pm
@ReaperAce:

Before I start my answer, I need to apologize cause I was in a very bad mood last night for personal reasons, so If I said anything to insult or offend you I take it back and I will edit my statement right now.
After all, I have high respect for you even from your early days as DC77.

It's all good bro. I'm not exactly a perfect example of sound behaviour myself (I'm sorry for my insults too btw), so I can sympathise with overstepping on a bad day. Let's leave this behind us.

I said what he is most probably referring to,

Right, but the technological constraints being the reasoning for the limited power displays in the OT by comparison to the PT is irrelevant, because the OOU justification for why doesn't impact the ramifications of it, nor alter the IU reasoning.

my point is this quote only says they will show more power, not they are more powerful. which can have many in-universe reasons, Like Ben throwing his fight with Vader, Vader holding back and toying with ESB Luke, Vader and Luke both holding back while the former was conflicted too.

The issue with these points is that:

A) Ben throwing the fight at the last minute after realising he has no way out doesn't change the fact that he demonstrably gives it his all beforehand.

B) There's no indication Vader was toying with Luke in ESB.

C) Vader is going all out in ROTJ per the comic, any potential conflict sensed by Luke doesn't hamper his combative capability.

Ok did I miss sth or you can become younger "Old men" or grow limbs "Half droid half men" with Force augmentations?

The reason these factors are tied to force augmentation isn't because it can turn back the clock or regrow limbs, but because it can compensate for these disadvantages by bolstering base physicals by a huge amount.

seeing GL's examples for his quote as well as him stating "energetic" more than once makes it completely obvious he is just referencing the physical state

It can't just be referencing the physical state though, because Jinn would fall into the "old man" category, and TPM Kenobi the "young boys" group under that assumption, yet both are presented as "real Jedi". The obvious deduction here is that it's not solely the physical state, but the ability to compensate for said state with augmentation, which Ben lacks due to the time he's spent wasting away on Tatooine.

cause If that was the case Yoda and The Count wouldn't one-shot 99 percent of the Jedi order.

This doesn't follow. If we agree that it references power then Dooku/Yoda fit into the "real Jedi" category due to said power lol (age is irrelevant, because as explained above it's only a factor with Ben due to him wasting away).

How is it not when he is first 20% sub-Ben "a broken old man" ( as he says I am not agreeing with that) then all of a sudden 20% sub-Sidious "the most powerful Sith Lord in the history of Star Wars"?

The 20% statement is prefaced with a maybe, indicating that Lucas was just trying to convey that Vader was weaker and didn't necessarily posit the figure with certainty. Moreover, it's totally unquantifiable because there's no reference point for what TPM Kenobi or Old Ben are.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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on September 26th 2020, 8:05 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
[size=34]George agrees with the POV proposed in the linked statement. Given his word is final via the Canon policy there's really nothing left to say[/size]
Well tbf, LFL policy is no longer the default methodology on SI. If people want George to fuck off because he's a retard who doesn't believe in sith spirits, they can as long as they consistently don't use George. Which means they can't use the 80% quote or the like Maul or Dooku quote to wank Vader Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 3344068304
which dooku/maul quote?
O-Siri
O-Siri

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on September 27th 2020, 3:28 am
If you completely disregard the OT and focus exclusively on his EU portrayals I would put him in the same range as the other apprentices including pre-suit Vader.
Malcador87
Malcador87

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on September 28th 2020, 4:38 am
He’s slightly above prime Dooku and base rots Mace but below rots titans like palps, Yoda, vaapad amped Mace and KF Anakin. I know I’m going to get shat on for this opinion but in all honesty I don’t care.
Meatpants
Meatpants
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on September 28th 2020, 6:40 am
What exactly from the EU puts Vader near Dooku and Maul?
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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on September 28th 2020, 7:18 am
@Malcador87 Welcome to the forum. From where do you hail?

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O-Siri
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on September 28th 2020, 11:03 am
@Meatpants wrote:What exactly from the EU puts Vader near Dooku and Maul?

Being more powerful and more formidable than Vastor and being faster than characters who can keep up with Maul including a version of Kenobi still capable of taking it to Hett; Hett stomped an enraged Anakin more easily than Dooku.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
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on September 28th 2020, 12:57 pm
Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 39523600
NotAA3
NotAA3
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on September 28th 2020, 7:07 pm
@O-Siri wrote:
@Meatpants wrote:What exactly from the EU puts Vader near Dooku and Maul?

Being more powerful and more formidable than Vastor and being faster than characters who can keep up with Maul including a version of Kenobi still capable of taking it to Hett; Hett stomped an enraged Anakin more easily than Dooku.

Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 39523600 Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 39523600 Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. - Page 2 39523600
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
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on September 29th 2020, 4:59 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Yeah, none of those things happened.
O-Siri
O-Siri

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on September 29th 2020, 8:39 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Zenwolf wrote:I never really bought into the whole cybernetics diminishing power thing. Yeah so Vader became crippled and couldn't achieve his potential...so? In fact that quote people like to put forth, never does Lucas say that the cybernetics are the reasons, all he says is that Vader couldn't achieve his potential...so it very well could have also been a mental thing just as well.

Also if cybernetics hampered a Force User, then explain Force Users getting cybernetics and their power either not diminishing or hell even growing stronger? Couple of examples being High Inquisitor Antinnis Tremayne or that one Sith in the Jedi Knight(?) storyline of TOR where he kept coming back and having more cybernetics and was far stronger than before. Can't recall his name.

I'm sure there are some other examples and I think Plagueis also talked about something of cybernetics not being a Force power hinderance.

EU authors just don’t like to acknowledge midi-chlorians, Luceno in particular. Despite the fact force potential being genetic has been established as early as RotJ. If strength in the Force was contingent on the spirit anyone could be Force sensitive. And yes Lucas said Vader crippled by his injuries and his being “more machine than man“ prevented him from being as strong as Sidious.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 29th 2020, 3:41 pm
@O-Siri wrote:
@Zenwolf wrote:I never really bought into the whole cybernetics diminishing power thing. Yeah so Vader became crippled and couldn't achieve his potential...so? In fact that quote people like to put forth, never does Lucas say that the cybernetics are the reasons, all he says is that Vader couldn't achieve his potential...so it very well could have also been a mental thing just as well.

Also if cybernetics hampered a Force User, then explain Force Users getting cybernetics and their power either not diminishing or hell even growing stronger? Couple of examples being High Inquisitor Antinnis Tremayne or that one Sith in the Jedi Knight(?) storyline of TOR where he kept coming back and having more cybernetics and was far stronger than before. Can't recall his name.

I'm sure there are some other examples and I think Plagueis also talked about something of cybernetics not being a Force power hinderance.

EU authors just don’t like to acknowledge midi-chlorians, Luceno in particular. Despite the fact force potential being genetic has been established as early as RotJ. If strength in the Force was contingent on the spirit anyone could be Force sensitive. And yes Lucas said Vader crippled by his injuries and his being “more machine than man“ prevented him from being as strong as Sidious.


That’s not really flying with me, just because they don’t like something doesn’t mean anything, they could still acknowledge that said characters grew weaker with their cybernetics but didn’t instead they grew stronger. Also yeah Lucas said he was crippled and more machine than man, but he didn’t specify exactly that the machine parts capped his power. Just that he was more machine and couldn’t reach beyond Sidious.

So it being Vader’s mental stat could also be just as plausible since we do get glimpses of his power coming forth at various instances.
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