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Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. Empty Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era.

on September 23rd 2020, 8:26 am
Alright I feel like it’s time for a singularly thread on this, so that other threads don’t go off on a tangent and completely move away from the topic.
 
So here’s this thread for everyone to discuss about Vader(suited) and where he stands relating to the PT era. Honestly I don’t see why people are lowballing him but I guess I’ll let others have at it, since my convincing of other topics haven’t gone too well.


Last edited by Zenwolf on September 23rd 2020, 1:18 pm; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Level Three

Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. Empty Re: Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era.

on September 23rd 2020, 8:31 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Below Jinn, at best Kenobi tier
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 23rd 2020, 9:12 am
KF/MF Vader stands right next to Sheev as of ROTS, but as much as Pre Suit Vader gets wanked, Suited Vader gets lowballed maybe even more so.

The main reasons being that:

-George Lucas isn't the best with quotes and power distinction.
-Vader having plot-based, overdramatize, and circumstantial showings and matchups in the OT and EU.
-Overall different opinions between authors regarding his standing, mostly because he didn't even have a measurable power showing until 2005.
-Most of the SW fanbase distinguishing Vader and Anakin as completely different characters, although he has been repeatedly called Vader even in ROTS novels way before he got the suit so that most of the accolades and scaling doesn't work on him. and there is no one even remotely powerful other than Starkiller for Vader to scale of after he got his suit.

That being said, I do find the scaling and quotes completely legit and see most of his appearances only low showings for The Dark Lord, which makes him way more powerful than his ROTS incarnation.

So until someone can prove to me Vader and everybody to ever write about Vader has Alzheimer's or that some quotes and sources ONLY address him post suit or have expiration dates, Vader stand right up there with the PT titans.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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on September 23rd 2020, 9:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@ReaperAce wrote:That being said, I do find the scaling and quotes completely legit and see most of his appearances only low showings for The Dark Lord, which makes him way more powerful than his ROTS incarnation.

So until someone can prove to me Vader and everybody to ever write about Vader has Alzheimer's or that some quotes and sources ONLY address him post suit or have expiration dates, Vader stand right up there with the PT titans.

Then you should make cases using your scans plus quotes and prove those people wrong my friend.
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 23rd 2020, 9:43 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@ReaperAce wrote:That being said, I do find the scaling and quotes completely legit and see most of his appearances only low showings for The Dark Lord, which makes him way more powerful than his ROTS incarnation.

So until someone can prove to me Vader and everybody to ever write about Vader has Alzheimer's or that some quotes and sources ONLY address him post suit or have expiration dates, Vader stand right up there with the PT titans.

Then you should make cases using your scans plus quotes and prove those people wrong my friend.

I would love too my friend, but being occupied with work and university and worst of all English being a distanced and second language to me decreases my power to debate heavily.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

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on September 23rd 2020, 10:14 am
In terms of G-canon, I think Lucas' stance is clear.

The EU isn't that much kinder to Vader either.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 23rd 2020, 11:20 am
@Meatpants wrote:In terms of G-canon, I think Lucas' stance is clear.

The EU isn't that much kinder to Vader either.

If we go strictly by what we see IE: The movies.

Sure ok I can maybe see where this whole Vader is lowbar compared to others, although given his experience and power I'm still not sure I'd put him TPM Kenobi.

If taking into the EU, yeah....I can't see him being a lowbar on the PT scale, especially since he flat out has engaged Jedi from the PT era, who survived Order 66(which made them stronger) and beat them. If we take the whole "Jedi in their prime" stance on the whole rather than select few, which makes sense as it wasn't singling any singular person...then Vader is still a high level combatant both Force and Sabers.

This isn't even taking into account the knowledge we know he has at his disposal and the scaling he has.

On another thing, I'm not sure why people point to TPM Maul as if that makes Vader low...like Maul is one of the most highly trained Sith in the mythos.

Also @Reaperace I wouldn't have guess English is your second.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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Moderator

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on September 23rd 2020, 12:41 pm
High-tier jedi master (non-titans) level at minimum. (Suit Vader)
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 23rd 2020, 1:19 pm
Also yes this is suited Vader since that’s the issue, obviously KF Vader isn’t in question. I’ve edited for clarification.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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on September 23rd 2020, 1:29 pm
It's not lowballing if the creator of the mythos shares the same opinions as the "lowballers".
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
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on September 23rd 2020, 1:39 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Below Fisto, above Koon
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 23rd 2020, 2:01 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:It's not lowballing if the creator of the mythos shares the same opinions as the "lowballers".


Which is fair if we’re talking movies. But if we’re including EU material which we know Lucas only has a lose hand in, I’m not sure where this TPM Kenobi thing is coming from. Don’tcha think the writers would have been called out on what they were doing to Vader? You can’t honestly expect anyone to believe that Padawan Kenobi can replicate Vader’s feats.
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

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on September 23rd 2020, 3:00 pm
If ROTS Sidious is with even Vitiate, TPM Kenobi is at bare minimum like a Naga Sadow type Sith Lord. TPM Kenobi could certainly more than replicate Vader’s feats.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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on September 23rd 2020, 3:55 pm
Regarding EU material vs the movies, the former just gets retconned if it happens to contradict George Lucas's statements, per LFL policy. However, I think we can find explanations for the majority of Vader's EU feats and quotes anyway, that don't involve forcing an active contradiction.

Moreover, the EU itself isn't even particularly favourable to Vader - GL's sentiments are repeated in many other C-Canon sources.
NotAA3
NotAA3
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on September 23rd 2020, 4:07 pm
Also, the argument isn't that Vader is a low bar on the PT scale... in fact, he's probably better than 99% of Prequel Trilogy Jedi. The argument is that Vader is inferior to the top 1% of PT Jedi, and that's why he gets dragged down into the mud, because the majority of our discussions are relating to characters within that top 1% (e.g. Kit Fisto, Qui-Gon Jinn, etc).
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on September 23rd 2020, 4:13 pm
@NotAA3 wrote:Also, the argument isn't that Vader is a low bar on the PT scale... in fact, he's probably better than 99% of Prequel Trilogy Jedi. The argument is that Vader is inferior to the top 1% of PT Jedi (Jinn, Kenobi, etc), and that's why he gets dragged down into the mud, because the majority of our discussions are relating to characters within that top 1% (e.g. Kit Fisto, Qui-Gon Jinn, etc).

So now Jinn is in the top 1%? Because I've been seeing otherwise. But what exactly puts Jinn as better?
NotAA3
NotAA3
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Level Four

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on September 23rd 2020, 4:17 pm
@Zenwolf

So now Jinn is in the top 1%?

Hasn't he always been?  Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. 1668617588

Because I've been seeing otherwise.

Where?

But what exactly puts Jinn as better?

George Lucas's statements - at least in regard to technical skill, speed, power, etc. Actually, to clarify, I was just explaining their position, I, myself, think Vader can probably beat Jinn through unique advantages like durability, determination, and Mastery (like he did against Maul in Resurrection), even if he is inferior in the more fundamental aspects of combat.
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 23rd 2020, 4:53 pm
So, Kar Vastor, Starkiller, Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, Jerec, and AOTC Mace Windu are all sub Fisto and Jinn.
Good thing they were holding back and didn't show they're impressive powers, together they could have matched Sidious in their prime easily. Darth Vader(suited) and the PT era. 1143629744
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

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on September 23rd 2020, 7:12 pm
None of them are inferior to Vader besides Jerec.
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 23rd 2020, 7:51 pm
@Sjuttiosju wrote:None of them are inferior to Vader besides Jerec.

So we are ignoring this:

It didn't matter. There was no doubt in Nick's mind that, were Kar Vastor somehow to be pitted against Darth Vader, the feral Balawai renegade wouldn't stand a chance.
The Force was powerful in Vader; even the dim wattage of Nick's connection could feel that. It was far more powerful than it had been in Kar Vastor. It had pulsed from Vastor in waves of fury blasted like an open furnace. In Vader, it was-contained. Pent.


--Coruscant Nights I: Jedi Twilight

And this:

Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day.

--Shatterpoint


And obviously this one too:

In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.

-- The Official Starships And Vehicles Collection 63


The only one I won't argue with you is Starkiller, reason being I have seen you debating he was exhausted (which is irrelevant cause he was rage amped multiple times in that fight but Idc).

Still, my point stands Sand>>>>KF Vader>>>> Dooku>>ROTS Kenobi>>>>>>>>>TPM Kenobi>TPM Maul>>>TPM Jinn>>Darth Vader>>>>>>Kar Vastor>>>>>>>>>AOTC Mace
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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on September 23rd 2020, 8:06 pm
@ReaperAce:

So we are ignoring this:

Lucas's word and C-Canon sources overrule the factually inaccurate musings of a non-force sensitive, so yes, we are.

And obviously this one too:

Likewise contradicted by George's sentiments on the subject + C-Canon quotes outnumbering it.

The only one I won't argue with you is Starkiller, reason being I have seen you debating he was exhausted (which is irrelevant cause he was rage amped multiple times in that fight but Idc).

He was only bolstered by his rage once throughout the text of the novel, during which Vader barely blocks a single strike from him. For the rest of the fight he's not drawing off his anger, yet still stalemates Vader while exhausted, indicating superiority.
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 24th 2020, 3:47 am
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@ReaperAce:

So we are ignoring this:

Lucas's word and C-Canon sources overrule the factually inaccurate musings of a non-force sensitive, so yes, we are.

And obviously this one too:

Likewise contradicted by George's sentiments on the subject + C-Canon quotes outnumbering it.

The only one I won't argue with you is Starkiller, reason being I have seen you debating he was exhausted (which is irrelevant cause he was rage amped multiple times in that fight but Idc).

He was only bolstered by his rage once throughout the text of the novel, during which Vader barely blocks a single strike from him. For the rest of the fight he's not drawing off his anger, yet still stalemates Vader while exhausted, indicating superiority.

Firstly, Nick is  aware of Kar's power even before the fight against Mace, so his comparison shouldn't be inaccurate:

Nick Rostu knew darkness.

He had, after all, stood with the Jedi Master Mace Windu against Kar Vastor in the steaming jungles of Haruun Kal. Kar Vastor, leader of the Balawai resistance; Kar Vastor, with his arm-mounted vibroblade weapons and his almost supernatural strength. Kar Vastor, stronger in the Force than any of the Korunnai, stronger than any in the galaxy, perhaps, save for the Jedi. Kar Vastor, so submerged in the dark side that, even though Nick had been only a couple of meters away from him during that final battle, even though he could see the man as clearly as he could see Mace, or Iolu, the guard who'd sliced him from sternum to navel-still, looking back on it now, he realized he couldn't visualize the guerrilla leader's face. It was as if the Balawai commander had been shrouded in darkness, somehow, as if the dark side of the Force radiated a strange anti-light. Kar Vastor had been the essence, the personification, of primal power, jungle savagery, and bloodlust distilled into flesh. Nick had never seen anyone or anything to match him.


So unless you bring me a quote or source debunking Nicks view, this comparison stands completely valid. Mara Jade's quote is the same as well unless debunked by another source telling us these characters are superior to Darth Vader, it stands as legit scaling.

As of GL quotes, enlighten me with some of them that contradict my statements.
CuckedCurry
CuckedCurry
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on September 24th 2020, 4:01 am
The Coruscant Nights series has quotes like these in a abundance, and they are fun and interesting quotes. One even says that Vader’s hatred is like a furnace, which is a reference to ROTS Anakin when he loses his shit with Dooku. However, Vader cannot adequately channel this power outwardly, unless he is under abnormal circumstances (and even then he cannot channel his power in the same way he could before). Yes, Vader has the power to destroy Vastor, but he just simply cannot effectively channel that power. 

So no, 18BBY Vader would certainly not beat Vastor
ReaperAce
ReaperAce

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on September 24th 2020, 4:13 am
@CuckedCurry wrote:The Coruscant Nights series has quotes like these in a abundance, and they are fun and interesting quotes. One even says that Vader’s hatred is like a furnace, which is a reference to ROTS Anakin when he loses his shit with Dooku. However, Vader cannot adequately channel this power outwardly, unless he is under abnormal circumstances (and even then he cannot channel his power in the same way he could before). Yes, Vader has the power to destroy Vastor, but he just simply cannot effectively channel that power. 

So no, 18BBY Vader would certainly not beat Vastor

We are only comparing power levels of these characters, So If Jinn>>Prime Vader in power then Jinn>>>>>>>>Kar Vastor>>>>ATOC Mace.
and Even If I concede 18BBY Vader cant channel his power, ROTJ Vader can channel triple that power maybe more so.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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on September 24th 2020, 4:21 am
There's a difference between raw power and combative power. Vader can have raw power exceeding Jinn if one is truly deadset on accepting CN stuff. But that doesn't preclude his combative power being far less than Jinn
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