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Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on October 5th 2019, 3:11 pm
Mace still wins.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on October 5th 2019, 3:13 pm
Why does Mace win? I'm seeing no counter to my argument. ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 4037459623
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on October 5th 2019, 7:48 pm
Dooku wins, DC’s argument convinced me.
Ziggy
Ziggy

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on October 5th 2019, 8:33 pm
The Meta has shifted from Mace stomps > they're equals > Mace stomps back full circle to their rough parity.

I've always said that pre ROTS super-conducting loop they're on par.  

Dooku gets the edge on all prior incarnations.  I'm very sorry. 


Reasons in favour : 


Yoda Dark Rendevouz assessment 
Mace against Ventress
Mace against Grievous
Dooku's decisive edge against the two listed
Mace's initial response to Sidious pre-conducting-loop "he could barely angle his blade to deflect"


G-canon doesn't contradict any notion above.  Mace competing with Sidious - in Lucas' words -  wouldn't preclude reliance on a special ability to do so.  Also,  the novel explaining the amp is G-canon, revised by the man himself.  


Reasons against: 


Various chocolate-bar accolades claim TPM Mace was either >/= Yoda pre 2002


A simple "lol" should suffice in rebuttal.
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 2:52 am
ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 3344068304
BoD
BoD
Level Six
Level Six

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 2:59 am
Mace. More powerful, more skilled, better physicals, and a confirmed peer of ROTS Sidious. Dooku, by contrast, is not.


Last edited by BoD on June 19th 2020, 3:09 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 3:08 am
Mace fucking one shoots  ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 3344068304
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 4:09 am
Dooku
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 5:58 am
Threads merged.
Thrawn
Thrawn

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 10:45 am
I don't have a strong opinion on this one, but I'd personally lean Dooku.

He's got a slight edge in skill, certainly mastery, and probably power as well. All 3 are negligible though.

He's also very familiar with Mace. They were friends for years, Dooku specifically trains to combat Lightsaber duelists, which includes Mace and Yoda. You know Dooku and Mace have dueled many times.

Prior to Dooku leaving the Jedi Order, he was the #2 guy behind Yoda. Mace was #3.

Mace being stated to be one of the only Jedi to be "able to contend" with Sidious means he's top tier and doesn't instantly die when fighting Sidious. Same is true for Yoda, Anakin, Dooku, and Mace.
 
Dooku wouldn't have done as well as Mace against Sidious, but he also wouldn't have instantly died like Plo Koon and company. Keep in mind Dooku was considered one of the greatest Jedi ever in the order.

This is a case where Sam Jackson asked for a good death and George Lucas wrote a scene where Palpatine uses Mace as a tool to turn Anakin.

That fight has specific circumstances to it. Palpatine knows Mace is the most dangerous the 4, yet he kills the other three first instead of killing Mace first. Why? It's obvious Sidious knows Anakin is coming back and he knows Mace and Anakin's history of bad blood.

The Mace/Palpatine duel was written with a lot going on under the surface. The only definitive thing in the fight is that Mace legit disarms Palpatine, and we know Mace was never leaving that office alive whether Anakin showed up or not once Palpatine resorts to the Force; Palpatine is simply too powerful for Windu. The Prophecy says only the Chosen One can destroy the Sith and that means Anakin has to be the one to defeat Palpatine.

Mace's performance against Sidious is very specific and doesn't translate to other duels. Mace vs Mother Talzin is a good example. She was more than holding her own against Mace with her sword and her power.


I think Mace vs Dooku is a 50/50 type situation. I think either answer is acceptable.
The Rich Man
The Rich Man

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 11:23 am
Mace Windu
SnowxElf
SnowxElf

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 19th 2020, 11:11 pm
@Thrawn wrote:I don't have a strong opinion on this one, but I'd personally lean Dooku.

He's got a slight edge in skill, certainly mastery, and probably power as well. All 3 are negligible though.

He's also very familiar with Mace. They were friends for years, Dooku specifically trains to combat Lightsaber duelists, which includes Mace and Yoda. You know Dooku and Mace have dueled many times.

Prior to Dooku leaving the Jedi Order, he was the #2 guy behind Yoda. Mace was #3.

Mace being stated to be one of the only Jedi to be "able to contend" with Sidious means he's top tier and doesn't instantly die when fighting Sidious. Same is true for Yoda, Anakin, Dooku, and Mace.
 
Dooku wouldn't have done as well as Mace against Sidious, but he also wouldn't have instantly died like Plo Koon and company. Keep in mind Dooku was considered one of the greatest Jedi ever in the order.

This is a case where Sam Jackson asked for a good death and George Lucas wrote a scene where Palpatine uses Mace as a tool to turn Anakin.

That fight has specific circumstances to it. Palpatine knows Mace is the most dangerous the 4, yet he kills the other three first instead of killing Mace first. Why? It's obvious Sidious knows Anakin is coming back and he knows Mace and Anakin's history of bad blood.

The Mace/Palpatine duel was written with a lot going on under the surface. The only definitive thing in the fight is that Mace legit disarms Palpatine, and we know Mace was never leaving that office alive whether Anakin showed up or not once Palpatine resorts to the Force; Palpatine is simply too powerful for Windu. The Prophecy says only the Chosen One can destroy the Sith and that means Anakin has to be the one to defeat Palpatine.

Mace's performance against Sidious is very specific and doesn't translate to other duels. Mace vs Mother Talzin is a good example. She was more than holding her own against Mace with her sword and her power.


I think Mace vs Dooku is a 50/50 type situation. I think either answer is acceptable.

I agree with a lot of this. When George Lucas stated the Mace could content with Sidious it could of been more to do with his Vaapad powers than his actual baseline ability. The other strange thing is that Anakin was a higher tier than Mace but Lucas still stated that Mace and Yoda were the only ones that could content with Sidious. which I think reinforces that Mace needs Vaapad to fight him.

In the ROTS novel it's quite clear that Sidious was already aware that Mace and other Jedi were going to come to arrest him before it happened. Before the attempted arrest, Sidious had put recording devices in his office and later tampered with them to make it it look like the Jedi were just trying the assassinate him unjustly. I think he also used the situation as a ploy for him to draw out Anakin and try to turn him to the darkside. It was also stated in the novel that Sidious was never actually afraid during the fight he was just pretending to be, reinforcing that he planed the entire thing out.

In the night, the shadow felt the boy's anguish, and it was good. The shadow felt the grim determination of four Jedi Masters approaching by air. This, too, was good.


One thing I might disagree on is the notion that Mace legit disarmed Sidious:

Mace disengaged from the shadow's blade and leapt for the window; he slashed away the transparisteel with a single flourish.

His instant's distraction cost him: a dark surge of the Force nearly blew him right out of the gap he had just cut. Only a desperate Force-push of his own altered his path enough that he slammed into a stanchion instead of plunging half a kilometer from the ledge outside. He bounced off and the Force cleared his head and once again he gave himself to Vaapad.

He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the Force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow's fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.

Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop.

Out where the shadow's fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow's fear turned some of its Force-powered speed into a Force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete.

Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow's lightsaber in half.

Firstly, what we find here is that Mace was drawing on Anakin's fear (Mace falsely believed it was Sidious') to empower himself more.
secondly, Mace intentionally drove Sidious to the wet floor by the broken window to make Sidious put less of his power into is force speed, which gave Mace the advantage. Sidious willing put himself in this position, which I think points to the fact that he was throwing the fight but not trying to make it look like he was.

"Fool!" His voice was a shout of thunder. "Do you think the fear you feel is mine?"
felt his approach behind-And Palpatine was not afraid. Mace could feel it: he wasn't worried at all

I also agree that it was strange that Sidious didn't target Mace first. It is quite possible that if he did Mace would of been killed immediately because there are multiple sources (can't find all of them) that state that Mace didn't even have time to react to Sidious' initial attack.

Before Mace realizes what has happened, Kolar, Tiin, and Fisto have fallen to Sidious's blade.
--Taken from The Complete Visual Dictionary
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 20th 2020, 12:54 am
Windu one shots ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 3344068304
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 20th 2020, 1:28 am
Bergmar
Bergmar

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 20th 2020, 10:16 am
Dooku, but very difficulty.
Seturna
Seturna

ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

on June 20th 2020, 4:05 pm
Dooku.
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ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace - Page 6 Empty Re: ROTS Dooku Vs ROTS Mace

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