- MeatpantsModerator | Champion of Darkness
on January 17th 2020, 10:23 pm
The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron. The rules include, but are not limited to, specific parts of the following: http://www.st-v-sw.net/CanonWars/SWCanonquotes2.html#Licensing. In addition:
- Feats take precedent over directly contradicted statements. A feat indisputably showing X is greater than Y overrides a statement stating Y is greater than X.
- Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case will be made within the debate itself.
- The opinion of authors have no validity and cannot be used unless they are explicitly accepted into the continuity.
- All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.
There will be five posts maximum per side. The first post per side, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 25,000 original characters, the second 30,000, the third 35,000, the fourth 40,000, and the finisher 5,000.
Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi will fight out of character, with their morals on, and start diagonal from each other at 424 meters away in an indestructible 300 meters by 300 meter arena in the grass plains of Lothal. This is ROTS Mace Windu and Utapau Obi-Wan Kenobi.
- I_Like_CheeLevel Six
on January 17th 2020, 10:24 pm
Nice, TAEP (even though no one ever gets tagged).
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Two
on January 17th 2020, 10:28 pm
- SjuttiosjuLevel Seven
on January 17th 2020, 10:33 pm
NotAA3 wrote:Nice, TAEP (even though no one ever gets tagged).
- BreakofDawnLevel Seven
on January 17th 2020, 10:45 pm
TAEP. Two great debaters going up against one another with two pretty controversial characters? This is going to be great.
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Two
on January 17th 2020, 10:50 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Do me a favor and please finish this lol
- IGLevel Four
on January 18th 2020, 11:46 am
- The lord of hungerLevel Two
on January 18th 2020, 11:48 am
- MeatpantsModerator | Champion of Darkness
on July 10th 2020, 3:49 am
Matchup has been modified.
- HeartoftheForceLevel Two
on July 10th 2020, 6:31 am
- KingofBladesLevel Two
on August 30th 2020, 4:16 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Obi-Wan Kenobi in the Light"I am called a great swordsman because I
invented a lethal style; but who is greater, the creator of a killing
form—or the master of the classic form?"
Out of the many sources that talk about Obi Wan’s infamous duel with the newly christened Darth Vader, something that gets repeated throughout all of them is that Kenobi and Vader were equally matched in their duel.
Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #52 wrote:In this battle, Master and Padawan fight fiercely, with astonishing, almost evenly matched skills, knowing very well that the outcome of their combat would forever mark the fate of the galaxy.
Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection #11 wrote:At the end of the Clone Wars, Anakin, manipulated by the Sith, turned away from the Jedi and gave in to the dark side of the Force. In a final blow for the heroic Jedi Master, Obi-Wan had to fight Anakin - his own Padawan - in a bitter lightsaber duel neither could win.
2)Reason(s) for Kenobi’s Performance
There’s a few reasons why Kenobi can match Anakin despite the latter being undeniably more powerful than the former:
- Kenobi’s experience
- Kenobi’s skill
- Form matchup
Among these 4 factors, the only one that isn’t constant is familiarity, so I’ll take a brief moment to explain its relevance.
2b) Form Familiarity
Familiarity with Anakin’s form allowed him to parry Anakin’s blows almost without thought:
This does have its benefits, but it's important to note familiarity isn’t a one sided edge in Kenobi’s favor. Anakin also “knew [Kenobi’s] best moves and weaknesses” and can calibrate his offense accordingly. Whether the benefit familiarity provided to Anakin equaled the benefit given to Obi Wan isn’t clear, but whatever net advantage Kenobi gains from is mitigated by Anakin also having it.Revenge of the Sith--Jr Novelization wrote:His lightsaber came up in an instinctive parry. They had sparred together so often that they knew each other’s favorite moves. Obi-Wan hardly had to think to counter Anakin’s attack.
*Note Mustafar Kenobi’s placement in the above chain and all subsequent chains represent the effective combat prowess he was operating at during his duel with Anakin, and do not represent his combative prowess in a vacuum. However, MFK is an exception, rock paper scissor dynamics that may be present for other matchups are not being considered unless indicated otherwise, e.g. MFK.
3)How Good is MFV?
I’m sure we’ve all seen the many many supremacy quotes attributed to Darth Sidious, which give variations of the following accolade, “Darth Sidious is the most powerful Sith Lord to ever live”. While Pre Suit Darth Vader does have similar quotes of his own, and a quote from Lucas himself saying Pre Suit Vader was “as strong as the Emperor”, how Vader compares to Sidious in power isn’t something I intend to dispute as of now. What I am interested in is how they stack up in overall combative ability, and that’s where this quote comes in:
MFV is the Jedi Order’s “most formidable threat” with “formidable”denoting an overall combative context, not simply power. So despite being arguably inferior or equal to Darth Sidious in power, MFV is still the more lethal foe. If you want an explanation as to why this is the case, I suggest MFV is simply more skilled than Sidious, as Sidious himself concedes, “Lord Vader, your skills are unmatched by any Sith before you”. To top it off, MFV was amped beyond this level during his battle with Kenobi, as the anguish of facing his best friend in combat gave him "an advantage Obi-Wan could not match", coupled with the edge he gets from familiarity.As the Clone Wars rage on, Anakin Skywalker becomes seduced by the dark side and betrays his fellow Jedi and all that he once held dear. Obi-Wan Kenobi must now battle his former Padawan, who has become the Jedi’s most formidable threat.
MFK=amped MFV>MFV>Darth Sidious
1) The Invisible Hand
While on the Invisible Hand, Kenobi enters a oneness like state, he’s given himself over to the force as a conduit for its will. This, among other things, increases his force perceptions, he has become his surroundings whether it be Palpatine’s clothing, the starships waging battle around him or General Grievous himself, while simultaneously retaining his individuality. One would imagine being in such a heightened state would provide some form of advantage in combat, and indeed it does:Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:As he is prodded onto the bridge along with Anakin and Chancellor Palpatine, he has no need to look around to see the banks of control consoles tended by terrified Neimoidians. He doesn't have to turn his head to count the droidekas and super battle droids, or to gauge the positions of the brutal droid body- guards. He doesn't bother to raise his eyes to meet the cold yellow stare fixed on him through a skull-mask of armorplast. He doesn't even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. The part of him that calls itself Obi-Wan Kenobi is no more than a ripple, an eddy in the pool into which he endlessly pours. There are other parts of him here, as well; there is nothing here that is not a part of him, from the scuff mark on R2-D2's dome to the tattered hem of Palpatine's robe, from the spidering crack in one transparisteel panel of the curving view wall above to the great starships that still battle beyond it. Because this is all part of the Force.
He is all sixteen of the super battle droids, gleaming in laser- reflective chrome, arms loaded with heavy blasters. He is those blasters and he is their targets. He is all eight destroyer droids waiting with electronic patience within their energy shields, and both bodyguards, and every single one of the shivering Neimoidians. He is their clothes, their boots, even each drop of reptile-scented moisture that rolls off them from the misting sprays they use to keep their internal temperatures down. He is the binders that cuff his hands, and he is the electrostaff in the hands of the bodyguard at his back. He is both of the lightsabers that the other droid bodyguard marches forward to offer to General Grievous. And he is the general himself. He is the general's duranium ribs. He is the beating of Grievous's alien heart, and is the silent pulse of oxygen pumped through his alien veins. He is the weight of four lightsabers at the general's belt, and is the greedy anticipation the captured weapons sparked behind the general's eyes. He is even the plan for his own execution simmering within the general's brain. He is all these things, but most importantly, he is still Obi- Wan Kenobi.
Kenobi’s heightened force perceptions allows him to counter GG’s attacks “without thought”. Basically, this quasi oneness state does what familiarity does, only better, as familiarity only allows Kenobi to parry attacks “almost without thought”.Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:In the Force, part of him was Grievous's intent to slaughter, and the surge from intent to action translated to Obi-Wan's response without thought. He had no need for a plan, no use for tactics. He had the Force.
In preparation for his battle with General Grievous on the planet Utapau, Kenobi voluntarily surrenders himself to the living force and enters the quasi oneness state:
Utapau Kenobi’s ability to voluntarily enter this state means its an ability he has available to him for this debate. To tie this back into the Mustafar Duel, lets take another look at why Kenobi was able to match MFV in combat:Revenge of the Sith--Adult NovelizationBut he had no time for nostalgia. He could practically hear Qui- Gon reminding him to focus on the now, and give himself over to the living Force. So he did.
A wave-front of cool passed over him with the shade's embrace. He walked without haste, without urgency. The Force layered connections upon connections, and brought them all to life within him: the chill deck plates beneath his boots, and the stone beneath those, and far below that the smooth lightless currents of the world-ocean. He became the turbulent swirl of wind whistling through the towering vaulted hall; he became the sunlight outside and the shadow within. His human heart in its cage of bone echoed the beat of an alien one in a casket of armorplast, and his mind whirred with the electronic signal cascades that passed for thought in Jedi-killer droids. And when the Force layered into his consciousness the awareness of the structure of the great hall itself, he became aware, without surprise and without distress, that the entire ex- panse of vaulted ceiling above his head was actually a storage hive. Filled with combat droids.
Instead of waiting for an answer he spun, heaving Obi-Wan right off the deck with effortless strength, whipping up him over his head to slam him to the deck with killing power; Obi-Wan could only let go of the staff and allow the Force to angle his fall into a stumbling roll. Grievous sprang after him, swinging the electrostaff and slamming it across Obi-Wan's flank before the Jedi Master could recover his balance. The impact sent Obi-Wan tumbling sideways and the electroburst discharge set his robe on fire. Grievous stayed right with him, attacking before Obi-Wan could even realize exactly what was happening, attacking faster than thought— But Obi-Wan didn't need to think. The Force was with him, and he knew.
- Kenobi’s Experience
- Kenobi’s skill
- Form familiarity
- Form Matchup
Kenobi’s experience and skill are factors he’s always going to have in any fight, they’re constant variables. Form Matchup is a semi constant variable, Kenobi is always going to use Soresu, but the form his opponents use will change. Against Anakin for instance, Soresu’s supreme energy efficiency allows him to remain evenly matched Anakin’s energy intensive Djem So, despite possessing inferior force reserves. However, this dynamic can be applied to any opponent(Hint:Mace) who uses one of the energy intensive forms like Ataru, Djem So and Juyo/Vapaad. Form familiarity however, is not a constant variable, it's something Kenobi only has against Anakin and doesn’t reflect his abilities in a vacuum. Luckily, Utapau Kenobi has an ability that replicates the effects of form familiarity better than form familiarity itself. Which means, in a vacuum, Utapau Kenobi has access to all of the factors that allowed Mustafar Kenobi to equal Mustafar Vader, so MFK’s performance against an amped Mustafar Vader should be well within Utapau Kenobi’s ability to replicate, even if you removed the familiarity edge Kenobi would ordinarily receive against Anakin.
Utapau Kenobi>/=Mustafar Kenobi=Amped MFV>Mustafar Vader>Darth Sidious
Vapaad is Mace Windu’s most powerful technique, for not only does it channel Windu’s own inner darkness, it draws on and reflects the darkness of his opponent as well. ts the second aspect of Vapaad, the superconducting loop, that makes Vapaad so deadly. It allows Mace to amplify his combative potency beyond that which is ordinarily possible, or in vs debating terms, it allows Mace to scale to opponents above him. We see how lethal this ability can be in action during Windu’s duel with Sidious, it allows him to perfectly equal Darth Sidious in saber combat. The catch, however, is that since Vapaad is a "channel for darkness", he can only scale to opponents who use the Dark Side of the Force. Which makes this portion of vapaad irrelevant to the debate MP and I are currently in, as Kenobi is a Jedi. Nevertheless, Mace’s performance against Sidious is still relevant to this debate. If Mace Windu could only equal Darth Sidious in combat while using the superconducting loop, then the Mace Windu in this matchup is logically capped below Darth Sidious since he doesn’t have access to the loop.Revenge of the Sith--Adult NovelizationVaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade. Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
Mace was deep in it now: submerged in Vaapad, swallowed by it, he no longer truly existed as an independent being. Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center— And let it fountain out again. He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
Vaapad made him an open channel, half of a superconducting loop completed by the shadow; they became a standing wave of battle that expanded into every cubic centimeter of the Chancellor's office. There was no scrap of carpet nor shred of chair that might not at any second disintegrate in flares of red or purple; lampstands became brief shields, sliced into segments that whirled through the air; couches became terrain to be climbed for advantage or overleapt in retreat. But there was still only the cycle of power, the endless loop, no wound taken on either side, not even the possibility of fatigue.
Because Vaapad is more than a fighting style. It is a state of mind: a channel for darkness. Power passed into him and out again without touching him. And the circuit completed itself: the lightning reflected back to its source
Utapau Kenobi>/=Mustafar Kenobi=Amped MFV>Mustafar Vader>Darth Sidious=VapaadLoop!Windu>NoLoop!Bindu
ConclusionUtapau Kenobi’s equality/slight superiority to an amped Mustafar Vader who is more deadly of a foe than Darth Sidious forces him above a Windu weaker than the one who stalemated Darth Sidious.
- HeartoftheForceLevel Two
on August 30th 2020, 4:27 pm
Man, EM scaling. It been awhile since I’ve seen that one
- MeatpantsModerator | Champion of Darkness
on September 14th 2020, 3:48 am
Message reputation : 100% (7 votes)
Tyranus had warned him about Mace Windu's prowess with a blade, and now he understood.
A commendable opener from my opponent, though ultimately incorrect in its conclusion. As of Utapau, Mace Windu is the superior duelist and Force wielder.
I. COUNT DOOKU
Mace’s relativity/superiority to Dooku from the Clone Wars up to Revenge of the Sith is in stark contrast to Kenobi’s inferiority.
A. THE HERO OF UMBARA
In 21BBY, the Hero of Umbara (HOU) fights Count Dooku to a standstill.
Star Wars: Adventures Game wrote:Stalemate! Count Dooku is battled to a standstill, but before the Sith Lord can be apprehended, Asajj Ventress intervenes! With the Dark Jedi covering her Master's retreat, your only option is to battle the dangerous assassin!
21BBY HOU ~ 21BBY Dooku
2010 Topps Star Wars: The Clone Wars- Rise of the Bounty Hunters - Foil Character #8 Mace Windu
Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Jedi Alliance
As of Season 2 of the Clone Wars, which takes place after the duel between HOU and Dooku, Mace is stated to be second only to Yoda in skill and power.
S2 Mace > 21BBY HOU ~ 21BBY Dooku
B. DARK RENDEZVOUS
Dark Rendezvous takes place in 19BBY, after the 21BBY fight between HOU and Dooku.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:Of all of these species, an observer watching Jedi Master Maks Leem lift the hem of her robe and go hurrying through the Jedi Temple, late in the evening some thirty months after the Battle of Geonosis, might argue that it was the three-eyed, goat-headed Gran whose faces were most particularly suited to expressing worry.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:On the way back to Coruscant, Master Yoda had spoken of healing and recovery, but for Maks Leem the last thirty months had been hard, hard. For her, it was easier to face memories of the battle than to cope with the terrible emptiness in the Temple.
New Essential Chronology
Vehicles and Starships #48
Yoda notes that Windu would be a match for the Count on neutral ground, indicating approximate parity as combatants.
Yoda: Dark Rendezvous wrote:As Yoda released Whirry from his mind's hold, and let her spill gently onto the flagstones far below, the tip of Dooku's lightsaber scored a burning line across his shoulder. The Count's blade was quick as a viper striking. Among the other Jedi, perhaps only Mace Windu would have been his equal on neutral ground: but here on Vjun, steeped in the dark side, his bladework was malice made visible-wickedness cut in red light.
DR Dooku ~ DR Mace > S2 Mace > 21BBY HOU ~ 21BBY Dooku
REVENGE OF THE SITH
By ROTS, Mace Windu has eclipsed Dooku as a swordsman, along with Master Yoda.*
Star Wars: The Official Starships & Vehicles Collection #48
*The quote is in the context of swordmasters the Jedi Order has produced. Dooku is a product of the Jedi Order, especially in regards to his lightsaber ability, thus the quote applies to him despite the fact that he’s no longer a member of the Order. Consider this example: if a Templar knight leaves his order and becomes a mercenary, he’s still a product of the Templar order in the context of his combat skills.
ROTS Mace > ROTS Dooku ~/> DR Dooku ~ DR Mace > S2 Mace > 21BBY HOU ~ 21BBY Dooku
Mace Windu has maintained superiority/approximate parity to Dooku during the Clone Wars, and eclipsed him definitively by the time of ROTS. In contrast, Utapau Kenobi does not have any scaling that places him above ROTS Dooku; nor has he demonstrated ever being close to Dooku in any engagement throughout the war.
II. MACE WINDU
Mace Windu is second only to Yoda on the council; has the advantage of Vaapad and technical mastery and is canonically a better duelist than Obi-Wan per G-canon. Additionally, Obi-Wan does not enter a ‘quasi-oneness’ state that amplifies his base combat abilities, it’s just how he fights in accordance with the doctrine of Soresu, requiring the user to become the “eye of the storm”. Furthermore, allowing the living Force to guide him is not unique to him.
A. BASELINE MACE
Official Episode III Souvenir Movie Guide wrote:As a senior member of the Jedi Order, the power he wielded rivaled that of Supreme Chancellor Palpatine.*
Star Wars: Episode III Commemorative Collection wrote:Nearly equal in power and respect to the great Jedi Master Yoda, Mace Windu was a longtime member of the Jedi Council, and one of its staunchest supporters.
Star Wars: Unleashed - Mace Windu statue wrote:Although small in size, Master Yoda is among the most powerful creatures in the galaxy, wielding his Force-fueled lightsaber in the cause of cosmic good. Back: Almost as powerful and a legend in his own right is Jedi Master Mace Windu, a fierce warrior often seen on the Jedi Council at Coruscant.
*Power in the context of this quote does not mean political power, as Palpatine/Darth Sidious had far more power over the Republic than Yoda or Mace Windu. In the script for the movie, Palpatine notes that he will take full control of the Council, “They will report to me… personally.” And Bail Organa adds “Now that he has full control of the Jedi Council…” Additionally, in the novelisation Windu notes how it’s “hard to say” where Palpatine’s authority stops, and “The only reason Palpatine’s not a suspect is because he already rules the galaxy. Since Palpatine has infinitely more political power than Mace Windu, the only logical interpretation of the quote that makes sense would be that Windu rivals Palpatine in Force power.
TL:DR Mace Windu’s power is “nearly” equal to Yoda’s and “almost as powerful”. Additionally, he rivals Sidious’ power in the Force.
It is easy to overlook how important - yet also how misunderstood - Vaapad is to Mace Windu. It’s not just a “superconducting loop”, but an entirely new lightsaber form built off of Juyo and based on the study of the styles of various lightsaber masters. As a result, Mace Windu has complete mastery over Jedi fighting styles:
Star Wars Annuals: The Clone Wars
He’s also the most technically skilled duelist alive during ROTS.
Order of the Jedi: Mace Windu
Revenge of the Sith Novelisation wrote:This is the moment that defines Mace Windu.
Not his countless victories in battle, nor the numberless battles his diplomacy has avoided. Not his penetrating intellect, or his talents with the Force, or his unmatched skills with the lightsaber. Not his dedication to the Jedi Order, or his devotion to the Republic that he serves.
The text from the novelisation is from the perspective of the third-person, omniscient narrator, and corroborated by the above quotes. This makes Mace Windu more technically skilled than anyone in ROTS, including Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The style and form advantage also falls to Windu due to his specialisation in Vaapad/Juyo. From a purely technical and stylistic standpoint, Juyo is the only form stated to be able to bypass the blocks of a Form III master, giving Windu an inherent edge against Kenobi’s defensive style.
TL:DR Mace Windu is more technically skilled with a lightsaber than Obi-Wan Kenobi, and also has an advantage in how their styles play out against each other.
C. GEORGE LUCAS WORKS ON A SYSTEM OF LEVELS
Mace Windu is second only to Yoda in power on the Council. In addition, per the word of God himself, Kenobi is a “level 8” on George Lucas’ system of levels, thus preventing him from scaling with or above Anakin, Yoda or Sidious in a vacuum.
2011 Topps Star Wars Dog Tags #14 Mace Windu
2013 Topps Star Wars Galactic Files Series 2 #405 Mace Windu
2013 Topps Star Wars Jedi Legacy - Influences #I-3 Mace Windu
It has already been established that Mace Windu is “nearly/almost” as powerful as Yoda and “rivals” Sidious in Force power. In addition to this, Mace is second only to Yoda in Force power on the Council.
TL:DR Yoda/Sidious >/~ Mace Windu > Obi-Wan Kenobi in Force power.
2. “HE’S GONE PAST OBI”
Per the rules of the debate, “The debate follows all formal and informal policies of Lucas Licensing as of September 2012, including the internal continuity rankings of the Holocron.” This means that “G-canon” overrides any contradictory C-canon sources. Following this, George Lucas created a system of levels along with the choreographer of the prequel trilogy, Nick Gillard, to represent the dueling level of Jedi and Sith in the movies. Obi-Wan is universally listed as level 8 on this system, as opposed to Yoda, Sidious and Anakin, who are level 9.
Nick Gillard, ROTS DVD commentary wrote:Anakin becomes a level 9. George knows the levels, myself and George talked about levels and how it was. But it's more, it's not like a black belt, it's more like a Richter scale. So the difference between eight, Obi's an eight, so the difference between an eight and a nine is enormous.
The Making of Revenge of the Sith wrote:As they approach the end of the climatic battle between Obi-Wan and Anakin, Gillard explains how he’s rated the various Star Wars swordsmen: In Attack of the Clones, I had to give them levels,” he says. “Sidious is a level nine [out of ten]. On this film, Obi is eight - he’s moved up - Anakin is a nine; Mace is a nine, Yoda is a nine. They’re up with Sidious.
SW.com Homing Beacon #126 wrote:"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."
For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.
SW.com wrote:In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines.
Nick Gillard, Dueling Jedi press article wrote:Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 – and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous.
It’s All For Real: The Stunts of Episode III Featurette Part 2 wrote:Hayden in this film has moved up to level 9, he’s gone past Obi.
2015 Interview wrote:When I started, I figured that a youngling is a level one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight bordering on nine. Anakin is nine.
In a vacuum, Mace’s position on this system isn’t clear cut. However, with everything that’s been laid down so far, it’s quite simple. He’s almost as powerful as Yoda, rivals Sidious in power, has technical mastery beyond these two, second only to Yoda in power etc. Mace is comparable to Sidious and Yoda, but not their equal. He’s almost as powerful, and comparatively skilled. Gillard in the 2015 interview says that Mace is “8 bordering on 9”. This gels perfectly with Mace’s status as a near-equal to Yoda and Sidious. Thus, I consider this as an accurate representation of Mace’s position on the level system.
TL:DR Mace Windu is level 8 bordering 9, while Obi-Wan is level 8. Canonically, Mace Windu is the superior duelist.
3. EYE OF THE STORM
Utapau Kenobi’s ability to voluntarily enter this state means its an ability he has available to him for this debate.
There’s no evidence that this state you’re referring to has any differentiation from baseline Kenobi. Obi-Wan has a history of difficulty connecting to the Force and allowing it to flow through him, and the descriptions in the novel you’re referring to are merely demonstrating that he’s overcome this, and has developed self-confidence. This is in contrast to his earlier career:
Star Wars: Jedi Apprentice - The Defenders of the Dead wrote:With Qui-Gon, he had learned that it was not his job to control it, but to join it. Now he could rely on it to guide him, give him strength and vision. He was beginning to understand how deeply it pulsed, how steady a presence it was. As a Jedi, he had constant access to it. It was the greatest gift he could imagine being given.
In fact, the example you provide for Utapau Kenobi, when he fight General Grievous, illustrates this point:
ROTS Novelisation wrote:But he had no time for nostalgia. He could practically hear Qui-Gon reminding him to focus on the now, and give himself over to the living Force. So he did.
How is this any different from Qui-Gon or Yoda giving themselves to the living Force and allowing it to guide their actions? Obi-Wan being able to let the Force guide him isn’t unique to him, nor is him being able to feel the room around him and understand everything in it.
Obi-Wan’s chosen practice, Form III Soresu requires the user to become the “eye of the storm”, referring to the calm centre of a hurricane, “Those who wish to study Form III are advised to practice their meditation… You are to be the calm eye of the storm as your enemies rage about you.” (Star Wars: The Jedi Path); “Obi-Wan’s true style is Soresu, which encourages a practitioner to place himself at the eye of the storm.” (Star Wars: Episode III Visual Dictionary). Obi-Wan’s weakness is aggression, so it makes sense that his answer to it is calmness, becoming the eye of the storm. Mace Windu even notes this in the novelisation:
ROTS Novelisation wrote:Mace Windu had almost smiled. "I created Vaapad to answer my weakness: it channels my own darkness into a weapon of the light. Master Yoda's Ataro is also an answer to weakness: the limitations of reach and mobility imposed by his stature and his age. But for you? What weakness does Soresu answer?"
Soresu is Kenobi’s answer to his own weakness: aggression. Kenobi appears to be in a ‘zen’-like mind because that’s how he fights. Mace Windu fights by channelling his darkness, Sith fight by using their anger and rage. Each duelist is a little different in how they play to their own strengths and weaknesses. It doesn’t logically follow that since Obi-Wan is allowing the living Force to guide him and perceive the world around him, that he’s in a “quasi-oneness” state that provides him with a significant ‘on and off’ switch that scales him over Sidious and Yoda. This comes full circle back to G-canon. Obi-Wan is locked as a level 8 regardless of whether he’s amping himself or not (he isn’t), meaning that the state he’s in on Mustafar can’t just be replicated whenever by Utapau Kenobi because 1. This is before Mustafar (with all its context specific to the fight) and 2. Connecting to the living Force and allowing it to guide you isn’t unique to Obi-Wan.
TL:DR There’s no evidence that Obi-Wan’s connection to the living Force allows him to replicate his feat of matching Vader on Mustafar whenever he wants. Soresu requires him to become the eye of the storm, which answers his weakness of aggression. This is no way proves that he’s in a quasi-oneness state any time he duels. More importantly, Obi-Wan is locked below Anakin, Yoda and Sidious as a duelist per G-canon, meaning that Kenobi’s feat on Mustafar must be specific to that fight, not representative of his normal dueling prowess
There are various, solid, lines of evidence that point towards Mace Windu’s superiority over Utapau!Kenobi.
1. LUCAS-GILLARD LEVEL SYSTEM
While Obi-Wan is consistently labelled as “level 8” every time he’s mentioned in relation to the G-canon levelling system, Mace is "8 bordering 9" - supported by his power being almost on par with Yoda and Sidious and being unmatched in technical mastery. His closeness to tier 9's places him above Kenobi's flat "8", which is constantly repeated even in the context of him contending with Vader on Mustafar.
Mace Windu has “complete mastery of Jedi lightsaber styles” and is “unmatched” in skill with the lightsaber. This puts him above Obi-Wan in technical mastery.
3. FORM ADVANTAGE
Juyo has a technical edge against Soresu on a theoretical level, which ties into Mace’s technical mastery also being superior to Kenobi’s.
4. SECOND ONLY TO YODA
Mace has a myriad of quotes circa ROTS placing him second only to Yoda in power on the Jedi Council, making him more powerful than Obi-Wan.
“Almost” and “nearly” as powerful as Yoda, a rival to Sidious in Force power.
Mace has maintained superiority/parity with Dooku throughout the Clone Wars, and ultimately eclipsed him as a swordsman. Obi-Wan has no comparable lines of scaling as of Utapau.
Mace Windu is more powerful than Obi-Wan, higher up on the G-canon level system, more technically skilled, has a form advantage and is second only to Yoda on the council. Two other important factors in this fight that play into Windu’s hands are:
1. Windu has access to shatterpoint, which would allow him to find faults in Kenobi’s defenses and exploit them;
2. The rules of the debate are “out of character, morals off”. What this means is that Kenobi has no knowledge of Vaapad, an arguably entirely new lightsaber form. So he loses form and personal familiarity there as well.
- MeatpantsModerator | Champion of Darkness
on September 14th 2020, 3:51 am
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Two
on September 14th 2020, 2:54 pm
I liked ur post. I can see some things that maybe KOB could 'attack', but overall great post.
on September 14th 2020, 9:43 pm
Great posts from everyone so far.
- MeatpantsModerator | Champion of Darkness
on September 22nd 2020, 11:50 am
Edited post to correct missing image links. Should all work now. Let me know if people still can't see any.
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