Vaylin vs Yoda

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Vaylin.

This is an interesting one. I am not sure to be honest. I could see arguments for both.

Yoda, good fight. More skilled lightsaber duelist and probably stronger in the Force, albeit marginally. He's also far more masterful and knowledgeable than her, whereas Vaylin will become enraged and screw up pretty quickly.

Vaylin

yoda

Revan and Yoda - both failed to handle extremely powerful applications of Force Lightning but Arcann did not - this is a measure of RAW POWER of each. Vaylin was stronger than Arcann as well. Direct comparison possible in this manner.

Yoda's only hope is with a lightsaber but Vaylin stalemated Arcann in a duel who is/was a remarkable duelist as well (Arcann was able to outduel any protagonist who in turn SCALE from scores of duelists to boot - some recognized as among the finest of the Jedi Order and Sith Order respectively). Therefore, Vaylin will overwhelm Yoda eventually, or force him to forfeit and FLEE.

Revan and Yoda - both failed to handle extremely powerful applications of Force Lightning but Arcann did not - this is a measure of RAW POWER of each.

Flawed argument. You can't possibly quantify the output of Sidious' lightning at that point beyond it being far more powerful than the voltage used to reduce Sithspawn for example to ash, so comparing it and Valkorion's is of limited effectiveness in your argument. At the very least, we know it can rip Yoda's lightsaber from his hand, nearly overwhelm his defences, and bend Mace's lightsaber back towards his face.

Yoda's only hope is with a lightsaber but Vaylin stalemated Arcann in a duel

Vaylin at this point was still stronger than Arcann per multiple sources (including, if I remember correctly, Arcann himself), who didn't want to kill her, either. She failed to overwhelm him in any regard, and she clearly made use of the Force numerous times. At best, you can argue Vaylin using both sabers and her Force advantage can stalemate an Arcann who either didn't want to kill her because she's family or didn't want to kill her because he wanted them to team up against Valkorion and the Outlander, not that her technical skill is equal to his. 

who is/was a remarkable duelist as well (Arcann was able to outduel any protagonist who in turn SCALE from scores of duelists to boot - some recognized as among the finest of the Jedi Order and Sith Order respectively).

And Yoda overwhelmed Dooku - who was widely considered the greatest Makashi practitioner in history - and overwhelmed Sidious - one of the greatest duelists of all time. It's also worth noting that Arcann wasn't more skilled than the Outlander by any significant margin. The two duelled evenly for quite a bit, and Arcann kept driving him back with a mixture of skill, physicals and a massive Force advantage. While he was somewhat more skilled, it wasn't by much. 

Therefore, Vaylin will overwhelm Yoda eventually, or force him to forfeit and FLEE.

Yet to see evidence to substantiate that. Releasing a Maelstrom won't help her, since it clearly takes much of her focus to do that plus conjure a barrier. If a pre-prime Outlander can push his way through that, so can Yoda.

Vaylin stomps since Arcann is already above Yoda and Vaylin>>>Arcann.

HellfireUnit wrote:Vaylin stomps since Arcann is already above Yoda and Vaylin>>>Arcann.

Why is Arcann above Yoda?

BoD wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Vaylin stomps since Arcann is already above Yoda and Vaylin>>>Arcann.

Why is Arcann above Yoda?

I don't know bro, ask the TOR Brigade. I am pretty sure DarthAnt66 and his comrades are hundred percent non-biased to it so I take their word.

HellfireUnit wrote:

BoD wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Vaylin stomps since Arcann is already above Yoda and Vaylin>>>Arcann.

Why is Arcann above Yoda?

I don't know bro, ask the TOR Brigade. I am pretty sure DarthAnt66 and his comrades are hundred percent non-biased to it so I take their word.

lol.....

Yoda in a great fight.

Vaylin in particular was portrayed as one of the more powerful force users we've seen in the entire franchise.

But power doesn't equal mastery or application.

I *think* Vaylin has a slight edge in pure power, but that's all she has.

Whatever power advantage she has isn't so great that it's a deciding factor.

Yoda has greater mastery, skill, knowledge, experience, patience, and intelligence.

I'm pretty comfortable in saying Yoda would ultimately win, but it's not easy for him.

BoD wrote:Flawed argument. You can't possibly quantify the output of Sidious' lightning at that point beyond it being far more powerful than the voltage used to reduce Sithspawn for example to ash, so comparing it and Valkorion's is of limited effectiveness in your argument. At the very least, we know it can rip Yoda's lightsaber from his hand, nearly overwhelm his defences, and bend Mace's lightsaber back towards his face.

Vaylin at this point was still stronger than Arcann per multiple sources (including, if I remember correctly, Arcann himself), who didn't want to kill her, either. She failed to overwhelm him in any regard, and she clearly made use of the Force numerous times. At best, you can argue Vaylin using both sabers and her Force advantage can stalemate an Arcann who either didn't want to kill her because she's family or didn't want to kill her because he wanted them to team up against Valkorion and the Outlander, not that her technical skill is equal to his. 

And Yoda overwhelmed Dooku - who was widely considered the greatest Makashi practitioner in history - and overwhelmed Sidious - one of the greatest duelists of all time. It's also worth noting that Arcann wasn't more skilled than the Outlander by any significant margin. The two duelled evenly for quite a bit, and Arcann kept driving him back with a mixture of skill, physicals and a massive Force advantage. While he was somewhat more skilled, it wasn't by much. 

Yet to see evidence to substantiate that. Releasing a Maelstrom won't help her, since it clearly takes much of her focus to do that plus conjure a barrier. If a pre-prime Outlander can push his way through that, so can Yoda.

Force Lightning

Teneb Kel - decades before his prime as Darth Thanaton - destroyed a structure made of durasteel with a limited blast of Force Lightning (a measure of his LETHALITY with said application at the base level):



THAT suggest that even his limited blast of his Force Lightning would be LETHAL enough to disintegrate FLESH and BONES of a normal living being or even a Force-user who is relatively lacking in defenses.

Breaching and short-circuiting heavy machines including different types of vehicles would not be a problem for this guy, should he try.

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Not all Sithspawn are created equal - some have much resistance to Force powers and some do not.

Terentateks are particularly famous for packing much resistance to Force powers on average.

Well;

Teneb Kel - decades before his prime as Darth Thanaton - KILLED one of the largest Terentateks ever with a powerful blast of Force Lightning which he produced while cutting through the gigantic monster's skull:



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Exal Kressh literally disintegrated Teneb Kel's lightsaber with a limited blast of Force Lightning, disarming him (a measure of her LETHALITY with said application at the base level):



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Members of the Dark Council could produce more LETHAL expressions of Force Lightning in comparison TO THE ABOVE.

Teneb Kel experience a vision in which sheer disparity between himself and Darth Thanaton is clearly established (a measure of the latter's LETHALITY with said application at the base level):



THAT was something that Exal Kressh with all her powers could not achieve, and make no mistake - she was among the strongest with a number of impressive feats of her own.

Darth Marr - a member of the Dark Council - is also IMPLIED to be capable of destroying Teneb Kel with an expression of Force Lightning in one of the meetings ("do you want to die?" - Darth Marr to Teneb Kel; the latter got the memo and showed obedience afterwards).

Darth Nyriss - a member of the Dark Council - would have done the same (or worse) to the duo of Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge with a powerful expression of Force Lightning if Revan had not intervened and intercepted her attack on time. All manner of defenses of Meetra and Lord Scourge were not up to the task of countering a powerful expression of Force Lightning from Darth Nyriss.

PLEASE NOTE: Meetra had fought many Sith before including Darth Nihilus, Darth Sion, and Darth Traya respectively - some of the most powerful Sith to have ever existed. Being a Wound in the Force offered protection against Drain Force but NOT against other Force powers. She must have formidable defenses of her own to withstand other applications in general. This is also apparent from the fact that she was able to endure limited blasts of Force Lightning from Darth Nyriss with just her Force Barrier (her body). Meetra could obviously do much better with a lightsaber in her hand but Darth Nyriss exceeded her POTENTIAL even in this capacity with her powerful blast of Force Lightning. Only Revan - who was like MILES above any Jedi in HISTORY at this point in time - was able to counter Darth Nyriss in this capacity.

Darth Thanaton gave a new meaning to Force Lightning by creating a VORTEX of destructive energies with it:





NOTE: The only reason WHY the legendary Sith Inquisitor wasn't turned into a pile of dust and bony parts while caught in that VORTEX was due to the fact that he had managed to bind a number of powerful Force ghosts to himself by virtue of remarkably powerful application of Sith Sorcery and augmented his bodily characteristics with Rakatan bio-technologies to cope with its stresses. The powerful Force ghosts prevented his death time-and-again.



TRANSLATION: Nice try Darth Thanaton but you are an honorable fool. I will CHEAT MY WAY TO VICTORY with an application of Sith Sorcery never replicated before in ancient times with success. You might be one of the most powerful Sith to have ever existed but you are no match for my CHEAT CODES.



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Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) took Force Lightning to another level in comparison to ALL OF THE ABOVE. Even Revan's remarkable defenses FELL SHORT in comparison and he would have been turned in to a pile of ash by Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) if T3-M4 had not interfered at the right moment:

Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.

A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.

Revan's body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan)

To put that in perspective:



Normal steel superheat when really close to 1300 Celsius mark but certain type of metals have higher tolerance capacity which would be true for durasteel as well and Revan's MASK would be further reinforced. Now given the fact that Teneb Kel could destroy a structure made of durasteel with a limited blast of Force Lightning (a measure of his LETHALITY with said application at the base level), and members of the Dark Council could produce FAR MORE powerful expressions of Force Lightning in comparison (sufficient to make lightsaber-augmented defenses of even a powerful Force-user IRRELEVANT and turn him/her into a pile of ash), and Tenebrae's powerful expression of Force Lightning was INFINITELY more powerful than that of any member of the Dark Council by extension. Therefore, Revan's remarkable defenses were mitigating the impact of Tenebrae's powerful expression of Force Lightning on his body and MASK to LARGE EXTENT (the MASK would have MELTED in an instant otherwise). This suggest that Revan was coping with temperature(s) FAR EXCEEDING 1300 Celsius mark while under attack from Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor).

A mere stray bolt from Tenebrae (Valkorion) could ONE-SHOT a military-grade starship with just its residual energy:



- and Tenebrae (Valkorion) was not attacking the shipping activity of the region actually; much of his focus was on breaking Arcann instead:



NOTE: Arcann have a REMARKABLE set-of-defenses attributed to him in the game; Data Mining efforts have disclosed as much.

There is a reason WHY Arcann is able to emerge from a GIGANTIC PILLAR that fell over him while confronting The Outlander for the first time (this pillar would have a mass of over hundred tons give or take), then he is able to TANK one of the most LETHAL expressions of Force Lightning produced; then he is able to emerge from a PLUNGE many miles below into the abyss after experiencing Tenebrae's powers (anybody would be dead in this situation). Arcann's POWERS are remarkable and his DURABILITY is self-explanatory.

Tenebrae (Valkorion) was actually COMPROMISED in THAT situation - he was RISKING KILLING his host The Outlander by releasing too much power through him.

"An unexpected setback, but I learned much today. Father's power has changed. It's weaker." - Arcann

Arcann noted as much.

Even then Tenebrae (Valkorion) produced significant COLLATERAL DAMAGE while attacking Arcann. Scores of starships of different sizes (including some really big ones) were ONE-SHOTTED by his stray bolts - leading to complete shut down of shipping activity in the region.

Palpatine was NOT able to do THAT in CANON when he was supposedly channeling all the Sith - NOT even to the TIE fighter class. Check following thread: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3462-palpatine-i-am-all-the-sith-vs-rey-i-am-all-the-jedi

Please keep in mind that all starships have layers of SHIELDING on them to cope with stresses of traveling in space, to enter- and exit- from planets on a regular basis, and to cope with numerous types of harmful radiations otherwise. Military-grade (and Smuggler-grade) starships feature even higher levels of shielding than the norm. These cannot be disabled with even a full stream of Force Lightning by some of the strongest Sith; this much is made apparent in one of the cinematic trailers of SWTOR as well.

No matter which manner of SCALING you apply to Palpatine in the domain of Force Lightning, he will still FIT somewhere IN THE ABOVE, but below Valkorion.

Tenebrae is DA BOMB - most powerful Force-user ever.

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NOW YOU HAVE AN IDEA?

Obi-Wan Kenobi was able to contain a full stream of Force Lightning from Count Dooku with a lightsaber as far back as in the Battle of Geonosis (Episode II) which suggest that a lightsaber offer a very effective counter to this application in the hands of a well-trained Force-user, and Teneb Kel was one by any measure (one of the best Sith Assassins of his time; famous for assassinating Exal Kressh no less). Therefore, Exal Kressh represents the starting point for making Lightsaber-augmented defenses redundant, and members of the Dark Council took this application to higher levels of LETHALITY (reducing even a powerful Force-user to a pile of ash; lightsaber or not). And Tenebrae was at the ZENITH of this application; even the most powerful Jedi do not stand a chance against him (lightsaber or not).

Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) >>> Members of the Dark Council >>> Exal Kressh >>> Count Dooku

My comparison is absolutely valid:

Revan and Yoda - both failed to handle extremely powerful applications of Force Lightning but Arcann did not - this is a measure of RAW POWER of each. Vaylin was stronger than Arcann as well. Direct comparison possible in this manner.

There is actually room for argument that Revan have superior defenses than Yoda. Defeating a powerful blast of Force Lightning of Count Dooku is nothing in comparison to showings of Revan in this capacity. Revan will LAUGH at Count Dooku and more.

Palpatine's powerful blast of Force Lightning did not actually bend the blade of Mace Windu's lightsaber; a lightsaber would disintegrate under such kind of stress. Windu was trying to bring his blade to cut through Palpatine but the latter was forcing Windu's lightsaber to nearly touch his FACE. The Episode III novel offer a METAPHORIC take of this matter and also in many other instances.

Vaylin versus Arcann

"He can't face Vaylin alone. We need to stop Arcann before he gets himself killed." - The Outlander

Alternatively; Vaylin's approach to dueling allowed her to incorporate her Force powers into her attacks for added punch. Much like Revan.

THAT isn't a NEGATIVE for her; THAT rather make her an incredibly potent duelist to contend with. If her powerful blows do not overwhelm an opponent, her Force powers will - eventually.

The Outlander could be Hero of Tython whose dueling skills are like second-to-none among all Jedi and Sith; Hero of Tython outdueled Lord Praven who established himself among the greatest of the Sith Warriors during the course of the Great Galactic War and outdueled Jedi Master Usma inside the Jedi Temple during the course of Sacking of Courscant who in turn was/is counted among the most skilled swordsmen produced by the Jedi Order. There is a SCALING CHAIN apparent in this matter. The original Emperor's Wrath was an EXPERT swordsman centuries before he met Hero of Tython and had witnessed both Meetra and Revan in combat situations. The original Emperor's Wrath is credited for assassinating over 1100 Jedi and Sith in PEACE TIME who were perceived as a THREAT by Tenebrae (The Sith Emperor) himself and marked for assassination - he might have killed many more in the Great Galactic War as well. Even members of the Dark Council had second thoughts while taking their chances with him.

The original Emperor's Wrath could see shatterpoints given his level of exposure and experience through centuries:

He possesses an uncanny ability to analyze those around him to discover their weaknesses, and use that knowledge to his advantage.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Holonet)

However, he did not see one in Hero of Tython when exchanging blows with him, and declared him the Jedi's FINEST.

But no matter which class you pick, Arcann established his superiority over The Outlander and this is not a coincidence. This is OBVIOUSLY due to a combination of his prowess with a lightsaber as well as his remarkable command of the Force; these two aspects are intertwined.

And Vaylin is able to stalemate Arcann; in-fact, capable of killing him as assessed by The Outlander.

I acknowledge Yoda's formidable skill with a lightsaber and he have a SHOT in disarming Vaylin and win by extension in THEORY, but Vaylin will prevent such a breakthrough by subjecting him to her Force powers time-and-again, disrupting his blows in the process. Therefore, this is an exceedingly difficult fight for Yoda, and he might be forced to forfeit.

INTERJECTION: In case you do not know, both Yoda and Vaylin are among my favorite characters of Star Wars. I am very likely to speak high for both to the extent possible. I am giving Yoda an honorable exit from this fight. Even though it is obvious that Yoda is outgunned in this fight.

Force Maelstrom

Do you think this expression of power is a JOKE or something? That every famous Force-user have an AUTOMATIC counter to it? 

Force Maelstrom is a manifestation of multiple applications of the Force being called upon at the same time, and pack so much energy and intensity in it that it could be expanded into a Force Storm (Wormhole) with sufficient focus - same expression of power which Palpatine demonstrated during the course of events in the Dark Empire.

Palpatine clearly established Force Maelstrom as the method to create a Force Storm (Wormhole) in the source (Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side).

Vaylin's expression of raw power swept both Arcann and Senya off their fleet, sending them crashing into the massive building nearby, and began to tear the building apart as well.







Vaylin's expression of raw power would have wrecked the entire setting, in time.

The ONLY REASON why The Outlander was able to hold his ground under those circumstances is due to POWERS granted to him by Valkorion beforehand:

"Valkorion strengthened your bond to the Force."

From (Satele Shan, Star Wars: The Old: Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 12)

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"A bond to the Force as intense as yours brings with it powerful insight."


From (Satele Shan, Star Wars: The Old: Republic: Knights of the Fallen Empire: Chapter 12)

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"You were an exemplary pawn, one I forged into a vessel of supreme power--worthy of preserving my spirit."

From (Tenebrae (Valkorion), Star Wars: The Old: Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: Chapter 9)

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Given the fact that Arcann is capable of TANKING even the most LETHAL expressions of Force Lightning (a measure of his RAW POWER and formidable defenses by extension), even he stood no chance against TANKING a Force Maelstrom produced by Vaylin. By extension, neither Revan and nor Yoda can - each is BELOW Arcann.



Yoda isn't an infallible and unstoppable juggernaut of destruction because he managed to hold his own against Palpatine by the end of The Clone Wars. He have realistic limits.

In fact, Palpatine had the upperhand before the FIGHT even began:



- but Palpatine WASTED his time instead by TALKING and TALKING. Yoda got the chance to gather his power and counter him afterwards.

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Palpatine is/was FIRMLY above Yoda by the time of Battle of Endor anyways (courtesy of his DARK experiments on BYSS).

Vaylin is also FIRMLY above Yoda after being UNCHAINED.

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Vaylin >> Arcann >> Revan (Reborn) = Yoda (second attempt to counter Palpatine's powerful blast of Force Lightning) >> Yoda (overwhelmed by limited blast of Force Lightning from Palpatine) >> Count Dooku

Yoda's performance FLUCTUATED in combat situations because his age was catching up to him eventually (his HYPE notwithstanding). Duel with Palpatine took FURTHER TOLL on Yoda, and he went into hiding consequently. Why do you think Yoda did not challenge and assassinate Darth Vader afterwards? He no longer had it in him. Luke Skywalker was made to take the mantle and responsibility.

You've literally talked around my points and ignored them rather than countering them. Only about 10% of your post is actually relevant to what I've said, and the rest is an attempt to either bury it beneath flawed scaling that doesn't substantiate your point at all or to bring misinterpreted feats and events into the fray.

Leg ragdolling

KingofBlades wrote:Leg ragdolling

No one likes a cheerleader, hun.

Outside of highly suspect points brought about by TOR brigade I see no reason to presume Vaylin can beat Yoda, especially give Az has thoroughly demonstrated her superior (Outlander) is inferior to the little green freak.

Not cheer-leading. I take no pleasure in stating leg is ragdolling, but I cannot stay silent as an objective observer

BoD wrote:You've literally talked around my points and ignored them rather than countering them. Only about 10% of your post is actually relevant to what I've said, and the rest is an attempt to either bury it beneath flawed scaling that doesn't substantiate your point at all or to bring misinterpreted feats and events into the fray.

This is a feeble attempt at not coming to terms with established facts. I have addressed your points with valid SCALING considerations in regards to demonstrated applications of Force Lightning from different characters. And I drew a valid parallel for Revan, Yoda, and Arcann respectively, given the fact that each had attempted to counter some of the most powerful expressions of Force Lightning and how each fared in the process. And it is certain that Tenebrae (Valkorion) have produced most powerful expressions of Force Lightning. Therefore, Yoda does not receive the benefit of doubt in this case. When there is a way to establish a direct parallel between characters, remainder of the information and scaling-chains fall into place easily.

You are the one who continue to misinterpret feats as apparent from your LOW-BALLING efforts in the following thread: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3499-senya-tirall-vs-mace-windu

I am sure that I can dig out more in your case.

My apologies if provided information challenged your mythologyview. When you are addressing an argument, you need to bring a though-provoking perspective on the table. Accusations and LOW-BALLING efforts do not help anybody in a conversation or make it fruitful.

Sjuttiosju wrote:Outside of highly suspect points brought about by TOR brigade I see no reason to presume Vaylin can beat Yoda, especially give Az has thoroughly demonstrated her superior (Outlander) is inferior to the little green freak.

Yeah...no.

Vaylin takes this as soon as she starts unleashing her force powers.

HellfireUnit wrote:

BoD wrote:

HellfireUnit wrote:Vaylin stomps since Arcann is already above Yoda and Vaylin>>>Arcann.

Why is Arcann above Yoda?

I don't know bro, ask the TOR Brigade. I am pretty sure DarthAnt66 and his comrades are hundred percent non-biased to it so I take their word.

OT: Yoda

Yeah, the Outlander is factually below TPM Maul. Vaylin won't be able to perceive Yoda.