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darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 14th 2020, 9:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
[[Your whole argument on the Sith assassins part has been that since Revan knew about this technique and taught it to the assassins, then he can resist/defend against such technique. This is a mere assumption on your part and is not supported by any of the points you ‘established’ about the Sith assassins. As a matter of fact, not only are you making an assumption from your head, there is evidence against your assumption of Revan being able to resist the technique simply because he taught it to the assassins. Kreia taught it to Nihilus and yet she did not know how to resist such technique despite teaching it. So, what makes you think that Revan would be able to resist it simply based on him teaching it to the assassins? Not only that, but what even makes you think that Revan would be able to defend against this technique against Nihilus who took the technique to a whole new level. Revan taught it to assassins who are nothing compared to Nihilus. Your mere “he taught it so he has to be able to resist” is hilarious at this point. To summarize your argument of the Sith assassins in one sentence, here is the desperate argument conveniently summarized by you:]]

I’m fairly certain I made it clear why I think Revan can resist the Drain and Kreia couldn’t, but since you apparently failed to actually read what was said, let’s go back it over it again:

Kreia says that she believes the Drain has no defense, she cannot defend against it herself, which Chris Avellone confirms is only her opinion, “she doesn’t know everything”, and that Revan “far surpassed” her. Avellone states this in the context of my question, which was “Would what Revan learned on Malachor V allow him to defend himself against Nihilus’ otherwise indefensible drain technique?” So again, the implication here is clear, Revan knows things Kreia doesn’t because “she doesn’t know everything”, and Revan “far surpassed” her. Revan implicitly knows far more than Kreia and the Sith assassins do about this technique, and Avellone is saying exactly that.

Bastila, in KotOR II, comments that dark side Revan recalls a technique that allowed him to corrupt followers to his side, and murder those who wouldn’t join him. A technique he learned in the unknown regions, where Nihilus’ drain originated (with the Ancient Sith), and Kreia hits on the fact that Revan left in search of them. So once again, the heavy implication is there that this is the same technique, and he knew it.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHeg2RjIKaE&feature=youtu.be&t=116

As for Nihilus taking the technique to a whole new level, the technique is still the same at its core, and as I’ve been arguing, Revan has the added experience of being able to resist effects similar to those demonstrated by Nihilus, i.e, the Star Forge, which expressly must feed on/destroy Force connections, since it is itself potentially able to cause the death of the Force, there’s no way around that. If Revan can do it against the Star Forge, why wouldn’t he be able to do it against Nihilus? That’s the question you’ve failed to answer, that’s the case you’ve failed thus far to make.



[[This is a hilarious line to be honest. So now you are claiming that any Sith that uses Force lightning can protect themselves from Sidious tier Force lightning? They can both use the ability, right?]]

We have direct showcases of characters who aren’t even familiar with a given power being able to defend against it with limited success. In the “Return of the Jedi” novelization, Luke sees a degree of success when he attempts to defend himself against Sidious’ lightning.

“The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls.”

Of course Luke failed at this juncture, obviously, but the point is that he didn’t fail immediately, he successfully defended himself, albeit briefly, against a power he’d never heard of. So if Revan is, unlike Luke, expecting the attack, and knows what the power is, what it does, how it works, why is it so unbelievable that he’d be able to defend against it? It makes no sense that he wouldn’t be able to, given the precedent for it, and the fact that as per Avellone, the ability can be defended against.

[[It’s not a ‘weird tangent’ whatsoever. Revan taught the Sith assassins which then taught Kreia. Kreia saying that she thinks there is no defense against it is suggestive that Revan may not have known a defense against because he taught the assassins who then taught Kreia.It is a teaching pattern which leads to Revan’s knowledge about this technique and thus Kreia. This isn’t a ‘sizable leap in logic that has no basis’. Your assumptions about Revan being able to resist the technique simply because he knew it are the ones that have no basis. The above is a clear implication that Revan may have not known any defense against it.]]

It is though. I wrote a response to this point originally, but I think my first response in this comment sums up nicely what I was going to say here.

Revan implicitly knows more about this technique than Kreia and the Assassins, and Revan has resisted these kinds of Force connection devouring effects before on the Star Forge.

[[Kreia mentions that she thinks there is no defense against it meaning that she herself cannot defend against it as she believes it’s not possible. This means that the ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ part must have had to refer to Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him. Just because she would have expected to be attacked does not mean that she will somehow randomly be able to defend against it. This is even more evident from the fact that she says there is ‘no defense’ after being attacked and so at this point she is expecting Nihilus to attack her if they had interacted again. At this point she already knows Nihilus would attack her if they meet and yet still says there is no defense. This means that her ‘defense’ is staying away and not putting herself in a vulnerable position to Nihilus and not that she will be able to somehow prepare to defend/resist against it. In contrast, that is why Chris says that Revan is more tactically sound. Revan would not have placed himself in a vulnerable position like Kreia and hence why Chris says that Kreia would not have left herself vulnerable (had she expected the attack) and right after contrasts it to Revan saying he is more sound than Kreia and would not have made the mistake Kreia did. This does not state that Revan would have defended against the drain through being able to resist it. It is simply saying that Revan would have avoided placing himself in the situation that Kreia did.]]


It seems like you’re just regurgitating the same tired arguments over again now, this is exactly what you argued before, doing so again does nothing to help you debunk what I already laid out. For reference, this is what I said:

Chris then says Kreia was not expecting to be attacked at all, nor in the way she was, i.e, she was caught entirely off guard with a Force power she personally couldn’t defend against. The next line is essentially a contrast between Kreia’s handling of the situation and what Revan’s would have been, “I see Revan as being more tactically sound then Kreia ever was”, in response to “she wasn’t expecting to be attacked”, meaning Revan would have been expecting the attack, and would have been prepared to defend himself. He then goes on to state the obvious “the student far surpassed the master.)”
Looping back, Revan taught the assassins, and Kreia knew what the assassins knew (presumably), Avellone comments that Revan surpassed Kreia, and that Kreia doesn’t know everything, and implies Revan would have been able to defend himself. So the implication here is that Revan did know more about the technique than he taught the assassins, and knew more than Kreia came to.”

Nowhere in Avellone’s quote is distance from Nihilus ever mentioned concerning Kreia’s being caught off guard, and Nihilus has demonstrated the ability to use Life Drain from massive distances, so your argument here doesn’t even make sense to begin with.

[url=https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3824893-drain force.png]https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3824893-drain%20force.png[/url]

[size=13]Which means that the distance really shouldn’t matter, Nihilus should be able to drain Traya no matter where she is. So not only does the quote not remotely lend itself to “
Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him”, that argument makes no sense anyway because Nihilus can use his drain from orbit above planets or the distance of an entire star system. Revan being more tactically sound than Kreia is reference to the fact that Revan would have been expecting betrayal, which within the context of my question, makes sense.
[/size]

[[3. How would Revan ‘surpassing Kreia’ mean that he would be able to defend against Nihilus’s drain exactly? Your jump in conclusions never cease to amaze me at this point]]

I’ve explained this twice now. The implication, as I explained before, is that Revan knows more about the technique than Kreia and the assassins do. “She doesn’t know everything” in conjunction with “the student far surpassed the master” in direct response to “Would what Revan learned on Malachor V allow him to defend himself against Nihilus’ otherwise indefensible drain technique?” is a clear implication that Revan knows things Kreia doesn’t, which is the aspect of this that you are continuing to blatantly ignore.


[[Kreia mentions that she thinks there is no defense against it meaning that she herself cannot defend against it as she believes it’s not possible. This means that the ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ part must have had to refer to Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him. Just because she would have expected to be attacked does not mean that she will somehow randomly be able to defend against it. This is even more evident from the fact that she says there is ‘no defense’ after being attacked and so at this point she is expecting Nihilus to attack her if they had interacted again. At this point she already knows Nihilus would attack her if they meet and yet still says there is no defense. This means that her ‘defense’ is staying away and not putting herself in a vulnerable position to Nihilus and not that she will be able to somehow prepare to defend/resist against it. In contrast, that is why Chris says that Revan is more tactically sound. Revan would not have placed himself in a vulnerable position like Kreia and hence why Chris says that Kreia would not have left herself vulnerable (had she expected the attack) and right after contrasts it to Revan saying he is more sound than Kreia and would not have made the mistake Kreia did. This does not state that Revan would have defended against the drain through being able to resist it. It is simply saying that Revan would have avoided placing himself in the situation that Kreia did.]]


There really is no “assuming” I’m right here, I am right. Nihilus’ drain is described in the same way Bastila describes the effects of the Star Forge, as life draining, in the KotOR Campaign Guide.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412217-nihilusdrainkotorcg.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412223-nihiuslifedraininggift.png

[size=13]So both the Star Forge and Nihilus, unequivocally, feed on life energy, and life energy is synonymous with the Force.


“The Force is bigger than all of us, but expresses itself in two aspects: The Living Force is raw and close at hand. It is the life energy tingling around you when you pass among plants and animals in a walk through a jungle. When beings die, you sense it through the Living Force. When many die at once, the loss of their energy may shock you, even knock you out. All of your tangible Force abilities——such as running, jumping, heightened senses, moving objects, or soothing the emotions of others——are techniques by which we become agents of the Living Force.”

-The Jedi Path

“All Living things are a part of and contribute to the Force; even those with no awareness of the Force are affected by and a part of it. Many beings go through their daily lives wasting much their life energy. “

-Tales of the Jedi Companion

“It is an energy field that suffuses and binds the entire galaxy. The Force is generated by all living things, surrounded and penetrating them with its essence. Like most forms of Energy, the Force can be manipulated, and it is the knowledge and predisposition to do so that empowers the Jedi Knight —— and Dark Siders of the Sith.”

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

There’s also the scan I provided earlier that says what Nihilus uses is “Drain Life”, as well as an earlier scan I shared corroborating the same thing, so there’s no argument you can conjure that will prove what Nihilus does and what the Star Forge does are different, they both life drain their targets, and that’s the end of it. At a baseline, both the Star Forge and Nihilus do the same thing, they feed on life energy, and they are both considered to be threats to the Force itself if allowed to continue on unabated. The Star Forge is implied to have been the thing that caused the species to lose their ability to use the Force as well, further highlighting that the Forge attacks Force connections.

Bastila Shan in KotOR II, in a hologram on Korriban, implies the same happened to the Rakata as happens to the Sith..

“Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate. I am convinced Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge.”

She says this immediately after commenting on seeing the Star Forge drain those who tried to use it, and immediately prior to saying continued use of the Star Forge would be the end of the Force. The specific note of “and the end of the Force”, in response to the “Builders and their fate” and potential end of the Sith implies that the Forge drained the Rakata who used it.

We know the Star Forge could destroy the Sith who used it, draining their life forces, and we know that this happened because the Sith had failed to control the Star Forge, just as the Rakata did. The Infinite Empire falling to infighting and civil war doesn’t denote that the Forge didn’t also drain the life forces of those who attempted to use it, especially because we know that, conveniently, a plague started that caused the Rakata to lose their connection to the Force, that this plague began shortly after the construction of the Star Forge can’t be coincidence.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412214-rakataplaguenec.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412215-rakataplagueessentialatlas.png

[size=13]It makes no sense for one race to be drained when they fail to control the Forge, and another to fail and not be drained. Assuming otherwise is something you would have to prove to be true, but it also happens to be something that has no supporting evidence, so you’re out of luck.

[/size][/size]


 [[The ‘Revan quote’ you are referring to is not referring to raw Force power. It is says that Revan’s command of the Force was nothing Scourge had sensed and that it was impossible to not to sense Revan’s strength. Compare this to another quote that talks about the same situation. 

Interrogating [Scourge] the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions.”

Revan’s ‘strength’ in this case is referring to Revan’s will and his willpower and not his raw Force power. Both quotes are describing the same scenario of Revan’s strong will and command of the Force whilst being drugged. Not only that, as a matter of fact ‘Command of the Force’ here has to mean control/call upon the Force and not raw Force power. Why? Consider the quote below:

“His mind felt slow and dull, and he knew he’d been drugged. It was difficult to concentrate; impossible to focus his thoughts enough to use the Force.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

Clearly, being drugged makes you lose concentration and ability to focus to even call upon the Force. However, getting drugged would not reduce your raw Force power in anyway and would only reduce your ability to call upon/use that power. Relate this back to my earlier quote where it says:

 ‘His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions’

Knowing that drugs would only impact your ability to call upon/use the Force, the above statement makes it clear that even when Revan is drugged, his Command of the Force was still strong enough after getting impacted by drugs that he was still able to call upon the Force to help him endure the pain. This makes it very clear that ‘Command of the Force’ here is related to being able to call upon/use the Force and not raw Force power as raw Force power is not impacted by drugs and the above quotes are talking about how the drugs have impacted Revan.

Your Bane quote:

“But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host’s physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites’ ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one’s own command of the Force.”

-Dynasty of Evil
Command of the Force is not just based on mastery. It also means control/ability to call upon/direct the Force and use it to your will. Bane feeding on the dark side(from the orbalisks) will also increase his ability to control/call upon the Force. If a dark side user is on a dark side nexus, his ability to use and control the dark side of the Force is enhanced as well as his power is increased. This is in similar contrast of Bane using the parasites to feed on the dark side. It is even specifically stated that Bane is able to call upon the dark side not only from himself, but also from the orbalisks. So his ability to call upon the dark side is enhanced, which is exactly related to his increase in command of the Force. As such, your argument does not stand as raw Force power is not the only factor that gets increased.]]



The quotes you’ve provided here don’t implicitly or explicitly support your case, nor does mastery or control of the Force make sense in this context, so let’s take a look.

Interrogating [Scourge] the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions.”

As I argued earlier, one cannot “sense” somebody’s mastery of the Force, cannot sense the knowledge someone holds, or the control they can exert over their powers. There are no examples in the mythology where a Jedi senses someone’s mastery of the Force, that I am aware of, and I welcome you to provide them if they exist. As I said before, Qui-Gon Jinn didn’t encounter the Chosen One and sense his lack of mastery of the Force, he sensed the Chosen One’s unprecedented power, Darth Vader didn’t sense Luke’s lack of mastery, he sensed that “the Force is strong with this one”, power can be sensed, mastery cannot. So, it makes far more sense for Scourge to be sensing Revan’s power, because that’s the only thing that’s actually possible for him to be sensing.

If the drugs reduced Revan’s mastery of the Force so vastly that he could barely do anything with it, then Scourge’s commentary of Revan’s command of the Force still being awe inspiring makes little sense, he’d essentially be saying “look at this brain dead Jedi that can barely use the Force cuz drugs, so amazing.” In contrast to, “OK, this guy has more drugs in him than a Nar Shaada spice dealer and somehow I can still sense his potency, this is amazing.” One makes a lot more sense than the other.

Your entire argument, in relation to this particular topic, is predicated on the idea that the drugs in Revan’s system preventing him from calling on the Force is in reference to not allowing him to use his mastery of the Force, but the issue with that is mastery is not required to call upon the Force, not required to have or use that power, in the first place. Both Bane and Zannah have used the Force unconsciously, unaware that they were even doing so to begin with.

First, Rain instinctively calls on the Force and snaps the necks of two Jedi.

Instinctively, she lashed out at him. She didn't know how she did it; it wasn't even a conscious thought. She only knew he had shot her friend. He had killed Laa! “What's the mat-" His voice was cut short as she snapped his neck with the Force. The eyes of his companion went wide in horror, but before he could do anything else she had broken his neck, too.

-Path of Destruction

Rain also uses the Force instinctively to levitate away from danger.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11120/111205740/4938935-0704930771-scree.jpg


Dessel calls upon the Force, unconsciously, when he kills his father.

He'd never hated his father as much as he did at that moment. He envisioned a giant hand squeezing his father's cruel heart. I hope you die. I hope you die. I hope you die. The words rolled over and over, an endless mantra, as if he could make them come true through sheer force of will. I hope you die. I hope you die. I hope you die. The tears he'd held back during the brutal thrashing finally came, hot drops streaming down his purple, swollen face. Hurst had died that night.

-Path of Destruction

In both of these scenarios, Bane and Zannah call on the Force with no mastery of the Force to speak of, these things are instinctual, extensions not of knowledge and control, but of their innate power in the Force. So this recontextualizes the Revan quotes. Revan retains his mastery of the Force, he retains his power, and he demonstrates this once he’s free of the effects of the drugs.

Just then, Revan emerged from the cell. He had pulled the hood of his Jedi robe up to cover his head, and he wore the red-and-gray mask, hiding his face.

A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss’s hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.
Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.
“I am Revan reborn,” he said to Nyriss. “And before me you are nothing.”
Nyriss’s eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.

Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan

Clearly, in this scenario, Revan’s mastery of the Force remained, so obviously the drugs didn’t take it away if he still has it, his power remained, what changed is his mental clarity. He was fogged up by the drugs, unable to focus, even in the cases of Bane and Zannah which I highlighted above, they were mentally stable, free, clear of mind, there were no external factors affecting their ability to call on the Force. But in Revan’s case, there was. Being drugged doesn’t remove your mastery of the Force, nor does it affect power, it affects the mind, their cognizance to be able to focus your energy on using either mastery or power.

The short version of this is that Revan’s being drugged is actually entirely irrelevant to the topic, because the drugs don’t limit either Revan’s mastery or his power, it makes it “difficult to concentrate” and “impossible to focus”, the only thing the drugs affected was his ability to act in general.

To address some of the other quotes you’re in contention with me further down in your most recent comment, let me blanket them. To “command the Force” and the phrase “command of the Force” are, as I explained before, linguistically different, one is a phrase that has been used in several different contexts, another is simply saying “use the Force.” This isn’t the vital part though, the most important aspect of the Revan quote and the Bane quotes I provided is the context of them, which I explained before, and again in this comment, do not make sense when trying to make them mean mastery instead of power.

You using some quotes that reference power and having some of the same words as the phrase “command of the Force”, but not the phrase itself, does nothing to help your case. You cannot prove quote A doesn’t mean ___ just because quote B means something else and uses similar wording, if the context is different. My entire point in regards to this is that the context of the “Revan” quote only makes sense if it’s in reference to power, and my use of quotes from the “Darth Bane” trilogy that said similarly was only to highlight that Drew has used “command of the Force” in this context in other places before, which gives the stance greater validity, the point was not that he hasn’t used the phrase in a different context before. So frankly, you wasted your time attacking the “Revan” novel quote by using other quotes, because they don’t matter, the context does.

[[Funny how you are telling me that ‘Mastery’ is not specified in the quote and that I’m assuming it when you are assuming ‘raw Force power’ despite it not being specified in the quote. The quote does not mean either of our interpretations. The quote explains how the lightsaber is an ‘extension’ of a user’s command of the Force and directly relates it to ‘mental discipline’ and ‘physical mastery’. Raw force power has no role in here.]]


So you’re conceding that the quote doesn’t speak to mastery of the Force translating into saber skill/duels? Good, good, making some headway. The quote doesn’t need to explicitly mention “raw power” to mean “raw power” though, that’s a pretty poor assumption that makes no sense at all. As I explained (and provided examples of) before, there are several excerpts from “Path of Destruction” where power in the Force is clearly made to be vital to lightsaber combat. The first one I provided in my previous comment reads as follows, “Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand.” Following this, it says, “His weapon became an extension of the Force” Bane is drawing on the Force to empower himself, summoning more of his strength to be able to meet Kas’im blow for blow. This is a situation not unlike Luke destroying the Death Star, calling upon that internal strength to see him through the moment.

The second quote was even more clear, “Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im”, Kas’im could not overpower Bane, could not outmaneuver Bane as he was, because Bane was “too strong in the Force”, in direct reference to the lightsaber duel presently being fought. The quote you provided does not agree with this, it simply says the lightsaber becomes an extension of them, which one of my two quotes likewise says, and goes on to say mental discipline is important as well. Nothing in that quote contradicts anything I’ve argued or laid out thus far, in fact, it actively agrees with part of my argument. So if anything, your argument is self defeating.


[[Mastery/Control of the force would certainly have a role in battle precognition. You can have all the raw force power you want but if you don’t have the ability to control/direct/call upon that power then you won’t be able to use it. Precognition is not just dependent on raw Force power. I don’t know where you are getting this assumption from]]



Because precognition is largely dependent on raw power and there’s more than one high-level example of Force sensitives demonstrating precognitive abilities without having any training, experience, or knowledge of the Force at all.

Anakin Skywalker as a child showcased incredible precognitive abilities before he’d even known what the Force really was, it’s directly ascribed as the reason he can participate in the pod races on Tatooine. Likewise, prior to ever receiving training on Korriban, Bane utilized precognition.

He couldn't explain how he knew; sometimes he could just anticipate an opponent's next move. Instinct, some might have said. Des felt it was something more. It was too detailed-too specific-to be simple instinct. It was more like a vision, a brief glimpse into the future. And whenever it happened, Des always knew what to do, as if something was guiding and directing his actions.

-Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Precognition is an extremely basic trait in Force users, one that has manifested itself long prior to the Force sensitive ever receiving any kind of training. Sure, mastery of their powers can enhance their precognitive abilities, they can learn to focus them better, hell, Revan’s gifts of precognition and farsight are proof of that, but it’s on you to prove that this is the case in Bane’s duel with Kas’im, it’s on you to prove this was Bane actively trying to see the future, rather than the generic precognition all Jedi and Sith experience during virtually every duel in the mythos, my job was to establish the baseline that mastery of the Force is not necessary for accurate precognition, which I’ve done.


[[Yes, and virtually all of those you listed have a high mastery/control of the force. So, what is your point exactly? Luke had the highest mastery/control of the force and not just raw power. Those massively powerful Force users were powerful because of their raw power and their mastery/control of the force. Simply stating that their lightsaber effectiveness is due to them being powerful Force users does not mean that it was only due to their raw power. Mastery also has a factor in contributing to them being powerful Force users. So, no the quote is not referring to power in the Force, especially when it clearly mentions ‘mental discipline’, which is clearly not raw power.]]


This is addressed farther up in this comment, tbh.


[[No, the novel does not imply raw power from the references you just gave above. The first quote in fact says that Bane “simply called upon the Force”. The fact that he ‘called upon’ the Force is an indication of mastery/control of the Force in order to call upon it and use it. Your raw Force power interpretation is the one that makes no sense in this context. How would his raw force power allow him to call upon and use the force? This is even further supported:]]


As I elaborated on above, the fact of the matter is that simply calling on the Force is not indicative of mastery, as many Force sensitives have drawn on the Force and had no mastery of it to speak of.


[[The scene is cut because of the time pressure that the developers of KOTOR 2 were subjected to and not because the developers thought the material did not portray the characters they wanted. The cut scene is therefore an accurate portrayal of the characters we are discussing and is only non-canon because of real life time pressure and not because of an in-universe reason. Either way, the scene is exactly like the canonical with the only difference is that Nihilus stuns the party in the canonical while raises the party in the air in the cut content. The ‘player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed’ part is a statement that would apply in either case and so whether Nihilus stunned the party or lifted them into the air would not make a difference. Thus, the part applies whether you look at the canonical or cut content scene. And who are you exactly to try and attack me for the cut content when you yourself used a cut content scene earlier? Remember the Kreia getting betrayed youtube video you provided earlier on? It seems clear to me that if something benefits you then you take it and if it doesn’t then you disregard it because you don’t like it. Doesn’t work that way.]]


The statement “the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed”, regardless of whether it fits or not, is part of something that was ultimately cut and not in the final product, and thus, non-canonical, not explicitly or implicitly representative of what’s shown in the final product. Unless you have a source that parrots that sentiment that wasn’t cut from its final product, all you have is a non-canonical quote from a non-canonical cutscene.

I wasn’t aware the Kreia scene was from cut-content, so if it is, I sincerely apologize for that, it was entirely unintentional. That said, I used quotes from other, canonical sources, to supplement it, so my argument as a whole is left untarnished, while yours is centered solely around that non-canonical content. Either way, we come to the same result, you need something canonical to argue with, or your entire argument continues with no validity.


[[Actually, it is made very clear that Meetra onfly realized he was a lot more powerful than she had originally thought when the party is raised into the air/ stunned. And yes the statement still applies whether you look at the cut content scene or the original scene as I have mentioned above. And how would being attacked through the ‘Force twice’ give Meetra an accurate portrayal of Nihilus’s power exactly? Are you genuinely trying to argue that getting exposed to a few seconds to someone would give you an accurate assessment of their power? Even masters have underestimated their own apprentices in the past and they have trained them and known them for years.]]


Yes, actually, that’s exactly what I’m arguing. It’s on you to prove that Meetra essentially being ragdolled, then being subjected to Nihilus’ drain (even if it didn’t work as intended), and spending the duration of an entire battle defending herself against Nihilus, would not somehow give Meetra a good gauge of how powerful Nihilus was. She experienced his power in the purest possible form, via direct combat, a battle she could not possibly have won on her own, I’d say that gives her a pretty good idea of how strong he was. But please, by all means, prove that wrong.


[[Except that you completed ignored the part where Meetra did not anticipate Nihilus’s power (for your own convenience as usual) AND Meetra is not attacked ‘one extra time’ in the scene as you claim. She is attacked the same number of times in both.]]


I didn’t ignore it at all, it’s simply not relevant to the final result. Even if she initially was caught off guard by how strong Nihilus was, the end result is the same. She still gets essentially ragdolled by Nihilus twice, she still is forced into a prolonged duel with him while she’s even being aided by three companions, she still ultimately defeats Nihilus, and she still, at the end of the all, proclaims Revan to have the greatest command of the Force of anyone she’s ever met. The final result is still Meetra saying Revan is Nihilus’ superior.


[[Except the only reason Vitiate landed stunned was because he was focused on dominating Revan’s mind and was unprepared.]]


This point would be valid if Revan hadn’t also been diverting energy to fending off Vitiate’s telepathic attacks, which he logically would have had to do to avoid being dominated as he was in their first encounter. The pair both also still had passive Force barriers, as all Force users do, meaning there’s still a valid metric for comparison here. Both had to redirect power to a specific task, both had passive defenses, and Vitiate was still flying backwards and landed stunned and unable to move. There’s no way this can be construed as anything less than a point in Revan’s favor.

Note also that, later in the duel, Vitiate had to charge his lightning and allow Revan to come within striking range. Vitiate created his voices because Revan came “within striking distance”, in order to “guard against further vulnerability.” Implying Vitiate had been vulnerable, if Vitiate had been so overwhelmingly superior to Revan, he wouldn’t have needed to risk his safety to put Revan down with a charged attack, allowing Revan cross 40 or near meters, get close enough for Revan to kill him, and then loose his final desperate assault in the hopes Revan would fall.

“The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan’s plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.”

-SWTOR Encyclopedia

Vitiate was pushed to near desperation, to such an extent that he was forced to risk his own life to put his attacker out of commission. He is described as having been vulnerable, and it is stated that Revan “nearly assassinated” Vitiate. This is an absolute win for the argument that Revan is comparable to Vitiate, there’s no way to interpret it otherwise.

 
[[Except your contrast between the two is completely out of place. Revan pushing Vitiate to the floor is not at all comparable to Revan getting destroyed by Vitiate’s lightning storm. Revan needed to get saved twice while Vitiate was not saved by anyone and still dominated Revan on his own. Revan pushing Vitiate to the ground did not give Revan a chance to kill Vitiate as you claim but Vitiate’s lightning storm required Revan to be saved twice. Two opportunities for Vitiate and none for Revan. So no, there were no situations where Revan would have been able to kill Vitiate. Simply pushing him to the floor is not enough. And the only reason Revan was able to ‘stun’ Vitiate as you claim is simply because Vitiate was not prepared as has been shown and canonically stated earlier above. Once Vitiate was prepared to fight (instead of focusing on dominating Revan’s mind) he dominated Revan. Revan put up a good fight but there is a clear victor and superior here. Revan would have also been enhanced by the Dark Side nexus. He uses both light and dark side of the force at this point. This is even evident from his ‘pure form’ attack that hit Vitiate. Only one of his attacks was a Force attack anyway, and it was a pure one.]]


I don’t see anything here that actually debunks my previous arguments, which seems to be a trend with you, you say “nuh-uh”, and supply nothing substantive to prove you’re right or committing straw mans trying to say “this quote means the same as this quote” when they don’t mean the same thing at all, that’s been this entire debate thus far. Despite your above “points”, Revan still “came with striking distance of the Emperor”, still “nearly assassinated the Emperor”, still caused Vitiate to land “in a heap”, stunned and unable to do anything, and still forced Vitiate to risk his safety to put Revan down with a charged attack while amped on a dark side nexus.

Proof Revan would have been amped by the nexus at all? We have evidence that Revan was hindered, his foresight was weakened.

“No,” Revan said. “The dark side obscures my sight. We are walking into a time and place of shadows, and I cannot promise you that we will ever come out.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

This is the only comment that’s made on Revan being affected by the nexus, and it’s a negative effect. Even if Revan’s “Force in Balance” attack was partially amped, it only would have equaled out with Vitiate, either way, Revan matches Vitiate, and his use of tutaminis wouldn’t have had the same non-existent boost that Revan’ balance attack would’ve had. My argument is left untouched, yours is still as far behind as it was at the start.


[[I haven’t addressed SOR Revan because this derails the original aim of the thread, which was to discuss the beliefs I said above and not argue who is more powerful Nihilus or Revan. As a matter of fact, I shouldn’t have addressed the Reborn Revan/Vitiate discussion in the first place. The main goal was to address whether Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain and whether Revan is canonically stated to be superior to Nihilus. Caution that I am saying canonically stated. This does not mean who I or you think is more powerful and is based on clear definitive statements. The Vitiate/Revan discussion we had are arguments and what we think and not canonical statements. As such, I ask you to refrain from mentioning the Vitiate/Revan discussion on this thread and for both of us to stick to the 2 points I wanted to discuss in the thread. We can have that discussion another time and on a separate thread.]]


It doesn’t derail the debate though. My bringing up SoR Revan is part of proving that Revan is implicitly more powerful than Nihilus, which he is. Vanilla Hero beats Vitiate, Vitiate is the most powerful dark side user known to historians to that point, and Revan can stomp a stronger version of the HoT, thus, Revan can stomp Vanilla Vitiate, making Revan intrinsically more powerful than Vitiate. The SoR point, quite simply, solidifies that Revan at his peak is beyond Nihilus, and it is entirely relevant to the conversation.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 14th 2020, 9:20 pm
The formatting in this response got weird for some reason, idk why, so a couple parts look kinda janky. If one of the links ends up not working, let me know, and I'll post it again in a separate comment.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 15th 2020, 10:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Or we could accept the fact that Surik is biased towards Revan and is literally contradicting what is statdd by herself, by Kreia and by the script of the game. All of which indicates the exact opposite. Nihilus is > any one Meetra has met and doesn't believe his power is possible before the script states outright that he's even more powerful than the player has been led to believe so far. Keeping in mind that this Nihilus was starved and not at full strength.

Funny how Meetra's POV is the gospel when it comes to Revan fans. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 39523600
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 5:09 am
[1/2]

@darthbane77

[size=16]"I’m fairly certain I made it clear why I think Revan can resist the Drain and Kreia couldn’t, but since you apparently failed to actually read what was said, let’s go back it over it again:

Kreia says that she believes the Drain has no defense, she cannot defend against it herself, which Chris Avellone confirms is only her opinion, “she doesn’t know everything”, and that Revan “far surpassed” her. Avellone states this in the context of my question, which was “Would what Revan learned on Malachor V allow him to defend himself against Nihilus’ otherwise indefensible drain technique?” So again, the implication here is clear, Revan knows things Kreia doesn’t because “she doesn’t know everything”, and Revan “far surpassed” her. Revan implicitly knows far more than Kreia and the Sith assassins do about this technique, and Avellone is saying exactly that"
[/size]

I read everything you said about Revan resisting Nihilus’s drain based on Chris’s quote and none of it establishes what you are trying to say.

I have explained to you the Chris quote at least 3 times now. First you were saying that Revan taught the Sith assassins then that must mean he can resist Nihilus’s drain. Now you are going on about Chris’s quote. Chris is not saying that Revan would be able to resist Nihilus’s drain based on ‘surpassing Kreia’ as you are claiming. He literally says that Revan no doubt surpassed Kreia and the result of this is that Revan could beat Kreia. He literally says this before the ‘surpassed Kreia’. He is not saying that Revan surpassed Kreia and thus would resist Nihilus’s drain. He is saying Revan surpassed Kreia and thus could beat her. Your whole argument right now is that ‘Revan surpassed Kreia’ and Kreia does not know everything therefore Revan can resist Nihilus’s drain. Chris is not even saying that Revan surpassed Kreia in terms of Force drain knowledge least to resisting Nihilus. He is literally just saying that Revan could beat Kreia because he surpassed her. Your argument of ‘Revan surpassing Kreia’ would mean Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain is completely invalid. So, no Chris is not saying that Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain. He says Revan could beat Kreia. It is as simple as that and there is nothing implying he would resist Nihilus’s drain.

"Bastila, in KotOR II, comments that dark side Revan recalls a technique that allowed him to corrupt followers to his side, and murder those who wouldn’t join him. A technique he learned in the unknown regions, where Nihilus’ drain originated (with the Ancient Sith), and Kreia hits on the fact that Revan left in search of them. So once again, the heavy implication is there that this is the same technique, and he knew it"

And what exactly is this supposed ‘technique’ have to do with anything we are talking about? Nihilus’s Force drain does not corrupt followers to his side. It devours Force connections. I don’t even know what you are trying to argue with this. And no there is no ‘heavy implication’ when it is clearly and definitely not the same technique. Nihilus’s Force drain and this ‘technique’ are very clearly different and don’t even do the same thing. Force drain devours force connections and this ‘technique’ corrupts. Twisting the narrative as you want to see and then randomly saying ‘heavily implied’ will not work.

"As for Nihilus taking the technique to a whole new level, the technique is still the same at its core, and as I’ve been arguing, Revan has the added experience of being able to resist effects similar to those demonstrated by Nihilus, i.e, the Star Forge, which expressly must feed on/destroy Force connections, since it is itself potentially able to cause the death of the Force, there’s no way around that. If Revan can do it against the Star Forge, why wouldn’t he be able to do it against Nihilus? That’s the question you’ve failed to answer, that’s the case you’ve failed thus far to make"

Are you literally saying that since it is the same technique then you can resist the technique regardless of how powerful or proficient you are in it? So, you are claiming that resisting Nihilus’s Force drain is just as easy as those Sith assassins, correct? Do you realize how completely wrong and invalid your argument is? If I give you an average Sith lord that can do Force lighting and then give you Sidious Force lightning, you are literally claiming that being able to defend against the average Sith means you would be able to defend against Sidious since it’s just Force lightning i.e the same technique. I don’t even know what to say to you anymore. Your arguments are genuinely starting to become a complete mockery at this point and an act of desperation of denial. 

I have addressed the Star Forge in my last response. Either way, I have addressed the Star Forge thoroughly in this response below and highlighted huge distinctions between it and Nihilus in terms of draining and in terms of the ‘end of the Force’. To put it simply, Nihilus and the Star Forge operate very differently in terms of draining, threat to the Force and in terms of time scale.

"We have direct showcases of characters who aren’t even familiar with a given power being able to defend against it with limited success. In the “Return of the Jedi” novelization, Luke sees a degree of success when he attempts to defend himself against Sidious’ lightning.

“The young Jedi was at once confounded and in agony—he’d never heard of such a power, such a corruption of the Force, let alone experienced it.

But if it was Force-generated, it could be Force-repelled. Luke raised his arms to deflect the bolts. Initially, he was successful—the lightning rebounded from his touch, harmlessly into the walls.”

Of course Luke failed at this juncture, obviously, but the point is that he didn’t fail immediately, he successfully defended himself, albeit briefly, against a power he’d never heard of. So if Revan is, unlike Luke, expecting the attack, and knows what the power is, what it does, how it works, why is it so unbelievable that he’d be able to defend against it? It makes no sense that he wouldn’t be able to, given the precedent for it, and the fact that as per Avellone, the ability can be defended against."

You are literally claiming that knowing a Force ability would mean you can defend against it when this is completely and utterly false in the Star Wars Universe. For example, pretty much every Force user would know the basics like Force push. Does this mean that GM Luke would not be able to Force push a random force user? They both know the ability, right? Does this mean that a Sith lord would be able to defend against Sidious tier Force lightning? If a Force user knows TK does this mean they would be able to defend against a TK even from Luke and Sidious tier? This is absolutely incorrect. So no, Revan knowing the Force drain technique would not be evidence at all that he can resist Nihilus. It quite literally sounds like a desperate argument because there is no actual evidence that Revan would resist Nihilus drain caliber. You did not even provide me with an example of someone at least successfully defending themselves. Instead, you gave me a terrible failed Luke example that is not even analogous or even supports your claim. Honestly, this is becoming a joke at this point.

"It is though. I wrote a response to this point originally, but I think my first response in this comment sums up nicely what I was going to say here.

Revan implicitly knows more about this technique than Kreia and the Assassins, and Revan has resisted these kinds of Force connection devouring effects before on the Star Forge."

Saying ‘it is though’ is not an argument. I have clearly explained Chris’s quote about Revan and Kreia at least 3 times now and I have explained the Star Forge case (thoroughly below in this response) and very clearly shown why it is not even close or comparable or even the same to Nihilus’s drain.

"It seems like you’re just regurgitating the same tired arguments over again now, this is exactly what you argued before, doing so again does nothing to help you debunk what I already laid out. For reference, this is what I said:

“Chris then says Kreia was not expecting to be attacked at all, nor in the way she was, i.e, she was caught entirely off guard with a Force power she personally couldn’t defend against. The next line is essentially a contrast between Kreia’s handling of the situation and what Revan’s would have been, “I see Revan as being more tactically sound then Kreia ever was”, in response to “she wasn’t expecting to be attacked”, meaning Revan would have been expecting the attack, and would have been prepared to defend himself. He then goes on to state the obvious “the student far surpassed the master.)”
Looping back, Revan taught the assassins, and Kreia knew what the assassins knew (presumably), Avellone comments that Revan surpassed Kreia, and that Kreia doesn’t know everything, and implies Revan would have been able to defend himself. So the implication here is that Revan did know more about the technique than he taught the assassins, and knew more than Kreia came to.”

I stated this argument over and over because you failed to understand it. You first claimed that Revan would resist it because he knew the technique. I told you Kreia knew it and still failed. Then you claimed Revan can resist Nihilus because he ‘surpassed Kreia’ and I have clearly addressed this in the above comments and shown that surpassing Kreia means Revan would beat her, as even stated by Chris, and not that Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain or that he even has more knowledge on the technique than Kreia. ‘Surpassing Kreia’ in Chris’s quote does not imply anything other than the fact that Revan beats Kreia, which is exactly what Chris said.

"Nowhere in Avellone’s quote is distance from Nihilus ever mentioned concerning Kreia’s being caught off guard, and Nihilus has demonstrated the ability to use Life Drain from massive distances, so your argument here doesn’t even make sense to begin with.
[https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11114/111140132/3824893-drain force.
Which means that the distance really shouldn’t matter, Nihilus should be able to drain Traya no matter where she is. So not only does the quote not remotely lend itself to “Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him”, that argument makes no sense anyway because Nihilus can use his drain from orbit above planets or the distance of an entire star system. Revan being more tactically sound than Kreia is reference to the fact that Revan would have been expecting betrayal, which within the context of my question, makes sense"

Chris says ‘she would never have left herself vulnerable’ but does not mention how Kreia would have defended herself. So obviously it does not mention that Kreia would defend herself by distancing from Nihilus and also it does not state that Kreia would defend herself by directly resisting Nihilus either. However, we know for sure that it could not have been Kreia defending Nihilus’s drain directly. I have already explained why in the last post. Here it is again: Kreia mentions that she thinks there is no defense against it meaning that she herself cannot defend against it as she believes it’s not possible. This means that the ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ part must have had to refer to Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him. Just because she would have expected to be attacked does not mean that she will somehow randomly be able to defend against it. This is even more evident from the fact that she says there is ‘no defense’ after being attacked and so at this point she is expecting Nihilus to attack her if they had interacted again. At this point she already knows Nihilus would attack her if they meet and yet still says there is no defense. This means that her ‘defense’ is staying away and not putting herself in a vulnerable position to Nihilus and not that she will be able to somehow prepare to defend/resist against it. In contrast, that is why Chris says that Revan is more tactically sound. Revan would not have placed himself in a vulnerable position like Kreia and hence why Chris says that Kreia would not have left herself vulnerable (had she expected the attack) and right after contrasts it to Revan saying he is more sound than Kreia and would not have made the mistake Kreia did. This does not state that Revan would have defended against the drain through being able to resist it. It is simply saying that Revan would have avoided placing himself in the situation that Kreia did.

As for Nihilus draining from a distance, it is clearly stated and shown in KOTOR 2 that Nihilus is drawn to places rich in Force sensitives and that it is possible to mask your presence to Nihilus. This is even taught by Kreia to the Exile. Consider:

"Ah, you are here. You felt it, did you not?"

"It was Visas' Master - he can feel my presence in the Force."

"The time to hide your presence is coming to a close, and you will need to increase your training."

―Darth Traya and Meetra Surik (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


"Force Sensitives and worlds rich in the Force draw him. The Miralkuka world was one such place. That is why where the Jedi gather, Jedi will die."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)


"And those who feel the Force strongly are beacons to his hunger. My people, my planet, would have been attacked in time, it was inevitable, yet we could do nothing about it."

―Visas Marr (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

This is even further supported by Atris who was able to hide her presence from Nihilus as well on Telos. So, yes, it is indeed possible to keep distance from Nihilus and be able to mask your presence from him as has been shown in KOTOR 2. In fact, it is the only way shown to be able to ‘defend’ against Nihilus’s drain in KOTOR 2. This even further supports the fact that Kreia not leaving herself vulnerable means keeping a distance from Nihilus and masking her presence.

"I’ve explained this twice now. The implication, as I explained before, is that Revan knows more about the technique than Kreia and the assassins do. “She doesn’t know everything” in conjunction with “the student far surpassed the master” in direct response to ““Would what Revan learned on Malachor V allow him to defend himself against Nihilus’ otherwise indefensible drain technique?” is a clear implication that Revan knows things Kreia doesn’t, which is the aspect of this that you are continuing to blatantly ignore."

I already addressed at least twice and again in the above comments in this post. You are jumping on your own ‘implications’ and honestly have nothing to provide. I have broken down that argument over and over again and it is becoming a waste of my time at this point. Chris says that Kreia does not know everything in response to the ‘otherwise indefensible drain technique’ part of your question and not that he is implying that Revan would resist Nihilus. He is literally correcting you and telling you that it is not entirely indefensible technique. Chris says Revan can beat Kreia because he surpassed her. This does not imply that Revan knows more about the drain technique, it does not imply Revan can resist Nihilus, it simply says Revan can beat Kreia because he surpassed her, which is exactly what Chris says. There are no hidden ‘implications’. It is that simple and you trying to twist it around to your own desperate argument will not work. And I have thoroughly went through what Kreia not making herself vulnerable meant and described what that meant in relation to Revan being more tactically sound, as Chris literally told you.

Star Forge

There really is no “assuming” I’m right here, I am right. Nihilus’ drain is described in the same way Bastila describes the effects of the Star Forge, as life draining, in the KotOR Campaign Guide.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412217-nihilusdrainkotorcg.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412223-nihiuslifedraininggift.png

[size=13]So both the Star Forge and Nihilus, unequivocally, feed on life energy, and life energy is synonymous with the Force.

“The Force is bigger than all of us, but expresses itself in two aspects: The Living Force is raw and close at hand. It is the life energy tingling around you when you pass among plants and animals in a walk through a jungle. When beings die, you sense it through the Living Force. When many die at once, the loss of their energy may shock you, even knock you out. All of your tangible Force abilities——such as running, jumping, heightened senses, moving objects, or soothing the emotions of others——are techniques by which we become agents of the Living Force.”

-The Jedi Path

“All Living things are a part of and contribute to the Force; even those with no awareness of the Force are affected by and a part of it. Many beings go through their daily lives wasting much their life energy. “

-Tales of the Jedi Companion

“It is an energy field that suffuses and binds the entire galaxy. The Force is generated by all living things, surrounded and penetrating them with its essence. Like most forms of Energy, the Force can be manipulated, and it is the knowledge and predisposition to do so that empowers the Jedi Knight —— and Dark Siders of the Sith.”

-The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

There’s also the scan I provided earlier that says what Nihilus uses is “Drain Life”, as well as an earlier scan I shared corroborating the same thing, so there’s no argument you can conjure that will prove what Nihilus does and what the Star Forge does are different, they both life drain their targets, and that’s the end of it. At a baseline, both the Star Forge and Nihilus do the same thing, they feed on life energy, and they are both considered to be threats to the Force itself if allowed to continue on unabated. The Star Forge is implied to have been the thing that caused the species to lose their ability to use the Force as well, further highlighting that the Forge attacks Force connections.

Bastila Shan in KotOR II, in a hologram on Korriban, implies the same happened to the Rakata as happens to the Sith..

“Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate. I am convinced Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge.”

She says this immediately after commenting on seeing the Star Forge drain those who tried to use it, and immediately prior to saying continued use of the Star Forge would be the end of the Force. The specific note of “and the end of the Force”, in response to the “Builders and their fate” and potential end of the Sith implies that the Forge drained the Rakata who used it.

We know the Star Forge could destroy the Sith who used it, draining their life forces, and we know that this happened because the Sith had failed to control the Star Forge, just as the Rakata did. The Infinite Empire falling to infighting and civil war doesn’t denote that the Forge didn’t also drain the life forces of those who attempted to use it, especially because we know that, conveniently, a plague started that caused the Rakata to lose their connection to the Force, that this plague began shortly after the construction of the Star Forge can’t be coincidence.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412214-rakataplaguenec.png

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11122/111229949/7412215-rakataplagueessentialatlas.png

It makes no sense for one race to be drained when they fail to control the Forge, and another to fail and not be drained. Assuming otherwise is something you would have to prove to be true, but it also happens to be something that has no supporting evidence, so you’re out of luck.
””
[/size]

The Star Forge is not described in draining the same way as Nihilus and they are not the same as you are claiming. Let’s put some evidence into perspective.


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"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith, the end of the Force."

―Bastila Shan (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords)

Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

-Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

[Nihilus]

"As much as one may use the Force to bolster the wills and strengths of others, the reverse is possible, though not often used. Instead of sending one's will through connections in the Force, instead such connections are drawn upon, fed upon, and drained completely."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it.

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves... it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught... it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."

- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords


"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


Drawn to the assembled Masters, Nihilus devoured the life energy of everything on Katarr. Millions of Miraluka died, along with most of the Jedi Order’s senior members. Walking Katarr’s lifeless surface later, Darth Nihilus came across the only survivor: the traumatized Miraluka Visas Marr, whom Nihilus took as his apprentice."

―The Conclave at Katarr Codex Entry (Star Wars: The Old Republic)


"As Nihilus greedily consumes entire planets life energies, the dark side macerates him even faster."

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


"Darth Nihilus was known as the Lord of Hunger and was noted for his ability to literally consume the Force energy of his victims, which was used to sustain his own life energies. It was rumored that he could consume the Force energy of an entire planet.

―The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice."

―Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition



"[Darth Nihilus can] draw life energy from living beings, gradually absorbing it [himself]."

―Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

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Let’s begin with the Star Forge. It is clearly stated that the Star Forge life drained users who attempted to tap into its power. Life drain is essentially a technique that saps life energies of users and it is a technique that can be taught. On the other hand, Nihilus Force Drains users by literally consuming/devouring the Force connections of people and consuming the Force energy of his victims which is then used to sustain his life energies. This is one of the main differences between life drain and Force drain. Life drain directly saps life energies while Force Drain directly saps Force energies which then is used to sustain/feed on the life energies from the death caused by devouring the Force energies. While both Nihilus and the Star Forge drain life energies, the means/technique in which they do is the difference and this is a critical difference between the two. Star Forge directly drains life energies and causes death due to draining those life energies. Nihilus directly drains Force energies that causes the death which then causes Nihilus to consume and sustain the life energies after the death occurs, which was caused by devouring the Force energies. Not only that, but the Star Forge’s life draining technique is one that can be and has been taught throughout the Star Wars universe while Nihilus’s technique cannot be taught and has to be experienced first-hand. This is another difference between the two. In addition to that, Nihilus’s ‘life-draining gift’ is said to have become so effective that Nihilus saps and drains Kreia’s Force powers, a clear difference to life drain that only saps life energies, which the Star Forge incorporates

Before you go on about how the Star Forge is exactly like Nihilus because it would cause the ‘end of the Force’, I want to clearly state there is a huge difference in how Nihilus and the Star Forge were a threat and the ‘end of the Force.’ Let’s start with the Star Forge again. The Star Forge is the ‘end of the Force’ because of the plague and the apparent mutation of the plague virus it supposedly caused which is exactly what caused the Builders to lose their Force abilities. The Star Forge did not cause the Builders to lose their Force connections by literally devouring those connections like Nihilus. It caused the Builders to lose their Force abilities by causing a mutated plague and it is exactly this that caused their Force connections to be lost. This is a huge distinction to Nihilus who literally devours Force connections through his drain and thus causing the lose of Force abilities, as evident by Kreia. As a matter of fact, the Star Forge does not even drain Force connections; it causes a plague which causes this. Not only that, but the Star Forge is a threat to the Force only after its continued use over a long period of time. And this is exactly evident in the Builders case. The plague did not begin ‘shortly after the construction of the Star Forge’ as you are incorrectly and blindly claiming. The Star Forge was built around 30,000 BBY while the plague which caused the Empire to collapse took place around 25,200 BBY. This means it took around 4800 years of continued and prolonged use of the Star Forge by the Builders in order for it to cause the plague and thus become ‘the end of the Force’ for the Builders. And this is exactly what Bastila is talking about when she says ‘I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge  to use it would mean the end of the Sith, the end of the Force.’. Revan did not want them to keep the Star Forge because its prolonged use by the Builders is what caused them to lose their Force ability through the plague which took 4800 years to take place. This is even further supported by the fact that Bastila and all those Sith apprentices you find on the Star Forge in KOTOR 1 are not devoured of their Force connections by the Forge despite not being powerful enough to harness it. This is even further supported by how the Builders were able to continue using the Forge and continue having Force abilities for nearly 4800 years before they finally lost it through the plague. This is even further supported by the fact that all the Rakata, even those who were on different planets and not even on the Star Forge, lost their Force abilities. 

So to put it simply, the prolonged use of the Star Forge over a long period of time is what caused the plague and the plague mutation which was exactly what caused the Builders to lose their Force abilities and thus making the Star Forge a threat to the Force, a period which took nearly 4800 years to even occur. In contrast, Nihilus is a threat to the Force because he literally devours Force connections/energies and he can do this immediately and does not require 4800 years like the Forge. In addition to that, Nihilus directly devours the Force while the Star Forge causes a plague and it is this plague that causes the Force to be lost not the Star Forge itself/directly.

Nihilus -> Force Drain; can do so in very short period of time. 

Star Forge -> Mutated plague taking 4800 years of prolonged use. 


A very clear and huge distinction. Therefore, using the Star Forge to claim Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain is completely invalid and entirely contradicted on many levels as I have thoroughly shown above. Period.

"The quotes you’ve provided here don’t implicitly or explicitly support your case, nor does mastery or control of the Force make sense in this context, so let’s take a look.

“Interrogating [Scourge] the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions.”

As I argued earlier, one cannot “sense” somebody’s mastery of the Force, cannot sense the knowledge someone holds, or the control they can exert over their powers. There are no examples in the mythology where a Jedi senses someone’s mastery of the Force, that I am aware of, and I welcome you to provide them if they exist. As I said before, Qui-Gon Jinn didn’t encounter the Chosen One and sense his lack of mastery of the Force, he sensed the Chosen One’s unprecedented power, Darth Vader didn’t sense Luke’s lack of mastery, he sensed that “the Force is strong with this one”, power can be sensed, mastery cannot. So, it makes far more sense for Scourge to be sensing Revan’s power, because that’s the only thing that’s actually possible for him to be sensing.

If the drugs reduced Revan’s mastery of the Force so vastly that he could barely do anything with it, then Scourge’s commentary of Revan’s command of the Force still being awe inspiring makes little sense, he’d essentially be saying “look at this brain dead Jedi that can barely use the Force cuz drugs, so amazing.” In contrast to, “OK, this guy has more drugs in him than a Nar Shaada spice dealer and somehow I can still sense his potency, this is amazing.” One makes a lot more sense than the other.

Your entire argument, in relation to this particular topic, is predicated on the idea that the drugs in Revan’s system preventing him from calling on the Force is in reference to not allowing him to use his mastery of the Force, but the issue with that is mastery is not required to call upon the Force, not required to have or use that power, in the first place. Both Bane and Zannah have used the Force unconsciously, unaware that they were even doing so to begin with."

Except you literally completely ignored what I just said to you. It’s like you did not even read it. The second quote clearly elaborates on your Revan quote and mentions that Revan’s will and his command of the Force was strong and then immediately after relates that despite Revan being drugged, Revan was still able to command enough of the Force to his will to help him endure the questions and pain. And this is exactly what Scourge was sensing and impressed about; his will power and his command of the Force still being strong enough after the drugs. Even after Revan was constantly drugged, Scourge could sense that Revan’s command of the Force was still strong/impactful enough and that Revan could still call upon/direct the Force to help him endure the pain. I have clearly discussed that raw Force power will not be impacted by the drugs as the drugs impact your concentration and therefore ability to call upon the Force, which is exactly what Command of the Force is about. And this is exactly why Scourge was impressed and drawn to Revan in the first place. Revan’s raw power would still be the same after the drugs and so why would Scourge note that he could still sense Revan’s power after the drugs. His raw power is not impacted by the drugs and would have remained the same. As a matter of fact, this is even further supported by the second quote. The second quote mentions “Even drugged to the edge of consciousness he was able to draw on it…” right after stating Revan’s strong will power and Command of the Force. The fact that it mentions ‘Even drugged’ is a clear indication that what was mentioned before has been diminished but is still impactful enough. In other words, despite his Command of the Force diminishing because of the drugs, it was still strong enough that he was able to call upon it. It is very clear that Command of the Force is not raw Power. 

Command of the Force It is the ability to call upon/direct/control/use and manipulate the Force to your will. It is not mastery of the Force. Mastery enhances your command of the Force. The drugs were not reducing Revan’s mastery or knowledge of the Force. They were reducing his concentration and in turn his ability to control and call upon the Force to his will. Revan was still able to control enough of the Force to help him endure the pain after the drugs and this is what Scourge was impressed about. That despite all those drugs diminishing his Command/ability to use the Force, it was still high enough. All Force users have a level of Commanding the Force even if they are not trained or have no knowledge but the more they train, the greater their mastery of the Force gets and the easier it becomes to Command the Force. So obviously they don’t necessarily need mastery of the Force to do something with the Force. They need the power to do it and a certain level of Commandment of the Force depending on what they are trying to do. The more power they have, the less Command of the Force they will need to accomplish that specific thing. If you Command 25% of 100 raw Power you get 25. If you command 10% of 1000 raw Power you get 100. Despite commanding less of the Force, the ‘1000’ person is still more impactful. The lower your command of the Force is, the less impactful your raw power is. The raw Power itself does not change. It is how much of it you are able to command that differs and this is exactly the case.

"Clearly, in this scenario, Revan’s mastery of the Force remained, so obviously the drugs didn’t take it away if he still has it, his power remained, what changed is his mental clarity. He was fogged up by the drugs, unable to focus, even in the cases of Bane and Zannah which I highlighted above, they were mentally stable, free, clear of mind, there were no external factors affecting their ability to call on the Force. But in Revan’s case, there was. Being drugged doesn’t remove your mastery of the Force, nor does it affect power, it affects the mind, their cognizance to be able to focus your energy on using either mastery or power"

And this is exactly what I am talking about. The drugs would not affect Revan’s raw Power and so Scourge was impressed at how his Command of the Force (and his will) was still strong enough despite being diminished by the drugs. Revan was ‘fogged up’ and so would find it harder to call upon and direct the Force, which is exactly what Command of the Force is about. The drugs don’t affect raw Power so why would Scourge note that he could still sense Revan’s power despite being drugged?

"The short version of this is that Revan’s being drugged is actually entirely irrelevant to the topic, because the drugs don’t limit either Revan’s mastery or his power, it makes it “difficult to concentrate” and “impossible to focus”, the only thing the drugs affected was his ability to act in general.”

No, it is exactly and precisely relevant to this topic. It shows that the drugs reduced Revan’s concentration which in turn impacted his Command of the Force which caused Scourge to be impressed by how strong Revan’s command still is which is exactly why the quote mentions that Revan, even drugged to near unconsciousness, was still able to command enough of the Force to help him endure pain. Raw Power is not reduced and mastery of the Force enhances Command of the Force but it is not Command of the Force itself . It is clear that raw Power and Command of the Force are not the same thing.

"To address some of the other quotes you’re in contention with me further down in your most recent comment, let me blanket them. To “command the Force” and the phrase “command of the Force” are, as I explained before, linguistically different, one is a phrase that has been used in several different contexts, another is simply saying “use the Force.” This isn’t the vital part though, the most important aspect of the Revan quote and the Bane quotes I provided is the context of them, which I explained before, and again in this comment, do not make sense when trying to make them mean mastery instead of power.

You using some quotes that reference power and having some of the same words as the phrase “command of the Force”, but not the phrase itself, does nothing to help your case. You cannot prove quote A doesn’t mean ___ just because quote B means something else and uses similar wording, if the context is different. My entire point in regards to this is that the context of the “Revan” quote only makes sense if it’s in reference to power, and my use of quotes from the “Darth Bane” trilogy that said similarly was only to highlight that Drew has used “command of the Force” in this context in other places before, which gives the stance greater validity, the point was not that he hasn’t used the phrase in a different context before. So frankly, you wasted your time attacking the “Revan” novel quote by using other quotes, because they don’t matter, the context does.”

Except ‘Command the Force’ and ‘Command of the Force’ are entirely related to each other and not ‘linguistically different’. ‘Command the Force’ is using/calling upon/controlling/manipulating the Force to your will. ‘Command of the Force’ is the ability/extent to use/call upon/control/manipulate the Force to your will. They are completely and entirely related to each other regardless of how much in denial you are in. Whether you like it or not, they are related to each other very directly. And all the quotes I provided earlier, which you desperately attempted to ignore, prove that Command of the Force is not raw Force Power. There is absolutely nothing for you to even argue on this when I have provided over at least 10 quotes to suggest this and all of them have context to ‘Command of the Force’ and the context very clearly shows that Command of the Force is not raw Force power.

"So you’re conceding that the quote doesn’t speak to mastery of the Force translating into saber skill/duels? Good, good, making some headway. The quote doesn’t need to explicitly mention “raw power” to mean “raw power” though, that’s a pretty poor assumption that makes no sense at all. As I explained (and provided examples of) before, there are several excerpts from “Path of Destruction” where power in the Force is clearly made to be vital to lightsaber combat. The first one I provided in my previous comment reads as follows, “Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand.” Following this, it says, “His weapon became an extension of the Force” Bane is drawing on the Force to empower himself, summoning more of his strength to be able to meet Kas’im blow for blow. This is a situation not unlike Luke destroying the Death Star, calling upon that internal strength to see him through the moment.

The second quote was even more clear, “Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im”, Kas’im could not overpower Bane, could not outmaneuver Bane as he was, because Bane was “too strong in the Force”, in direct reference to the lightsaber duel presently being fought. The quote you provided does not agree with this, it simply says the lightsaber becomes an extension of them, which one of my two quotes likewise says, and goes on to say mental discipline is important as well. Nothing in that quote contradicts anything I’ve argued or laid out thus far, in fact, it actively agrees with part of my argument. So if anything, your argument is self defeating.”

No, I am not conceding that the quote doesn’t speak to mastery and Command of the Force. I am saying it does not mean both of our interpretations as in your interpretation is invalid. I mis-phrased that. The quote is very clear. The lightsaber is a clear extension on someone’s ability to Command the Force and directly relates this to ‘strict mental discipline’ and ‘physical mastery’ right after. It does not anywhere imply or refer to raw Force Power. The fact that it relates mental discipline to Command of the Force further shows that Command of the Force is not raw Force Power. Force power impacts lightsaber combat because of the magnitude of the pre-recognition abilities it provides and the extent of raw Force power that can be used is dependent on one’s command of the Force (i.e ability to call upon the Force) and thus elaborates on why the lightsaber is an extension to a user’s command of the Force and exactly why it is related to mental discipline, which means focus/concentration to command the Force. And this is exactly supported by your other Bane quote that says ‘Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand’ which later on even mentions ‘His weapon became an extension of the Force’. Bane is able to command the Force (i.e call upon the Force) to enhance his lightsaber combat through precognition abilities and how much his precognition abilities are enhanced is dependent on his raw Power and how much of his raw Power he is able to command is dependent on Command of the Force. The greater his raw power, the greater the enhancement assuming his Command of the Force is levelled enough to command this much of the raw Power (remember the 100 and 1000 examples from before). And this is exactly what the previous quote is about. Lightsaber combat is partially dependent on precognition abilities which in turn is dependent on being able to effectively command the Force which in turn command more of the raw Power and thus leading a greater enhancement of precognition abilities.

It is all dependent on ‘mental discipline’ , to focus/concentrate to Command the Force, and being able to Command the Force effectively to enhance precognition abilities. If one does not have mental discipline, they will not be able to focus/concentrate enough to call upon the Force (a direct analogy to Revan being drugged) and so they will not be able to effectively Command the Force to effectively enhance precognition abilities as not a lot of raw Power will be commanded. And this is exactly why the quote states the importance of Commanding the Force on lightsaber effectiveness and relates it to ‘mental discipline’. And this is exactly the case. For example, you don’t see young Anakin or even older Anakin slashing around his lightsaber and being undefeated despite having a very high raw Power. This clearly means that lightsaber combat is not determined effectively by raw Power, but by the ability to Command the Force and mental discipline. And all this is in line with your other Bane quote of “Bane was simply too strong in the Force.” The more powerful Bane is in the Force, the more will be Commanded as long as his command of the Force is high enough to reach his raw Power. You won’t be able to effectively enhance your precognition abilities without effectively being able to Command the Force. Commanding the Force is the focal point of all this.


Last edited by Darth Nihilus on June 16th 2020, 5:26 am; edited 1 time in total
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 5:19 am
[2/2]

"Because precognition is largely dependent on raw power and there’s more than one high-level example of Force sensitives demonstrating precognitive abilities without having any training, experience, or knowledge of the Force at all.

Anakin Skywalker as a child showcased incredible precognitive abilities before he’d even known what the Force really was, it’s directly ascribed as the reason he can participate in the pod races on Tatooine. Likewise, prior to ever receiving training on Korriban, Bane utilized precognition.

He couldn't explain how he knew; sometimes he could just anticipate an opponent's next move. Instinct, some might have said. Des felt it was something more. It was too detailed-too specific-to be simple instinct. It was more like a vision, a brief glimpse into the future. And whenever it happened, Des always knew what to do, as if something was guiding and directing his actions.

-Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

Precognition is an extremely basic trait in Force users, one that has manifested itself long prior to the Force sensitive ever receiving any kind of training. Sure, mastery of their powers can enhance their precognitive abilities, they can learn to focus them better, hell, Revan’s gifts of precognition and farsight are proof of that, but it’s on you to prove that this is the case in Bane’s duel with Kas’im, it’s on you to prove this was Bane actively trying to see the future, rather than the generic precognition all Jedi and Sith experience during virtually every duel in the mythos, my job was to establish the baseline that mastery of the Force is not necessary for accurate precognition, which I’ve done."

Most of this is already addressed above. However, precognition is not largely dependent on raw Power. Its effectiveness is dependent on both raw Power and the ability to Command the Force. If precognition and thus lightsaber combat were largely dependent on raw Power, then why don’t we see Young Anakin slapping people around with a lightsaber? To take this further, we don’t even see Anakin in Attack of Clones, despite being trained for years now, even remotely close to being one of the best superior duelists despite his incredible raw Power. This is clear evidence that precognition is largely dependent on ability to Command the Force and mastery of the Force. It’s normal for Anakin to show precognitive abilities even as a child. He does not have literally zero Command of the Force and his raw Power is huge enough that this little Command of the Force would still allow him to have precognitive abilities. It does not contradict anything I have mentioned. There is nothing ‘on me to do’. I have thoroughly gone through the quotes and shown the importance of commanding the Force to precognition and thus lightsaber combat.

"As I elaborated on above, the fact of the matter is that simply calling on the Force is not indicative of mastery, as many Force sensitives have drawn on the Force and had no mastery of it to speak of."

Except commanding the Force is not mastery, it is enhanced by mastery. Calling upon and using the Force is what commanding the Force is about and this is exactly what Bane does. No one would have literally zero command of the Force and so of course some would be able to do something with the Force without training. I also see you ignored my other quote It was difficult to draw upon the Force through the veil of mind-altering chemicals in his system…” which also directly relates to Revan being drugged and diminishing his Command of the Force (i.e the ability to draw upon the Force). This further supports that Command of the Force is not raw Power.

"The statement “the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed”, regardless of whether it fits or not, is part of something that was ultimately cut and not in the final product, and thus, non-canonical, not explicitly or implicitly representative of what’s shown in the final product. Unless you have a source that parrots that sentiment that wasn’t cut from its final product, all you have is a non-canonical quote from a non-canonical cutscene.

I wasn’t aware the Kreia scene was from cut-content, so if it is, I sincerely apologize for that, it was entirely unintentional. That said, I used quotes from other, canonical sources, to supplement it, so my argument as a whole is left untarnished, while yours is centered solely around that non-canonical content. Either way, we come to the same result, you need something canonical to argue with, or your entire argument continues with no validity."

Except that I have very clearly mentioned why the scene is cut-content and it is not because the developers didn’t want it to happen anymore, but because there was no time for the developers to add it. It is still an accurate portrayal and representation of the characters we are talking about. It was not cut because the developers no longer wanted to add it or changed their mind. The reality of the matter is that it was going to be added and therefore can be used when discussing Nihilus as it is a valid and accurate interpretation of Nihilus. So, yes, I will definitely be using it and I see no reason not to. You even tried arguing against it earlier on and failed miserably and now you are desperately trying to ignore this scene. And as a matter of fact, the quote fits in the canonical scene, as I mentioned earlier, anyways and this further shows its validity. 

I also find it funny how your whole argument is clinging on a quote from Meetra’s point of view but disregard Kreia’s point of view and even call her opinion as ‘biased’ at times. As a matter of fact, Kreia puts Nihilus above Darth Revan, who is superior to MW Revan.

What do you wish to hear? That I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the Sith, that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by its throat? That for every good work that I did, I brought equal harm upon the galaxy? That perhaps what the greatest of the Sith Lords knew of evil, they learned from me? What would it matter now? There is only so much comfort in knowing such things, and it is not who I am now.”

- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

She is a much more reliable and valid source than Meetra to depict Nihilus’s power. She was Revan’s teacher before he went to the Mandalorian war and she has trained Nihilus as well. It’s not a mere few seconds unlike on Meetra’s account. This is also consistent with the fact that Nihilus’s feats and showings are vastly superior to MW Revan. While one may argue that Revan became more powerful between leaving Kreia and the end of the Mandalorian wars, this would be of little significance. Revan’s contribution in the Mandalorian wars was highly praised to be his strategies and tactical genius. Whilst his combative ability and experience would have improved, his Force ability would not have had a significant increase considering he is busy with the war fighting non-sensitive Mandalorians and not gaining more knowledge and learning more about the Force. Either way, his increase in power during this period would be hardly significant compared to the increase in power from Nihilus draining planets. And Kreia puts Nihilus above Darth Revan anyways.

"Yes, actually, that’s exactly what I’m arguing. It’s on you to prove that Meetra essentially being ragdolled, then being subjected to Nihilus’ drain (even if it didn’t work as intended), and spending the duration of an entire battle defending herself against Nihilus, would not somehow give Meetra a good gauge of how powerful Nihilus was. She experienced his power in the purest possible form, via direct combat, a battle she could not possibly have won on her own, I’d say that gives her a pretty good idea of how strong he was. But please, by all means, prove that wrong"

Except you are completely taking the fight out of context, for your own convenience as usual. Nihilus was already starved and suffers due to his hunger from his trip to Telos, which was a trap set by Kreia. 

"If there are no Jedi here, then my Lord cannot feed his hunger. He will destroy the planet, the station, he will cleanse it of life. Even if the people below are not Force Sensitive, the small amount he can feed on from the mass destruction of the station, and the life of the planet, will sustain him a while longer. And if there are no Jedi below, he will have no other choice."

― Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

"The Master suffers... If he can not feed, then the hunger begins to consume him. The planet Telos... He may feed on something upon its surface to sustain himself a while longer.”

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords

"[Kreia] spoke of the Jedi academy here on Telos...and my Master was forced to come here."

- Tobin (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

On top of that, he was severely weakened before the fight and weakened again during the fight by Visas. So, of course, Meetra would not have an accurate portrayal of Nihilus’s power. He was already suffering before the fight, and then further severely weakened before the fight even begins and then further weakened again. Meetra being ragdolled by Nihilus despite being weakened is a huge plus for Nihilus and further invalidates Meetra’s perspective. It goes to show how powerful prime Nihilus actually is without being severely weakened and starved. If he is able to do all this after being severely weakened, imagine what he would have done to Meetra if he wasn’t weakened. Meetra in no way would be able to tell how powerful Nihilus actually is or how he would have been without being weakened. Her whole fight was with a twice severely weakened and a Telos starved Nihilus. On the other hand, she fought with Revan for years and would be able to gauge his power unlike with Nihilus. Kreia, who is a much more reliable and valid source than Meetra to compare Revan and Nihilus, places Nihilus above Darth Revan who in turn is superior to MW Revan. And all this is further backed by much superior feats for Nihilus. You literally have no case or argument here.

"I didn’t ignore it at all, it’s simply not relevant to the final result. Even if she initially was caught off guard by how strong Nihilus was, the end result is the same. She still gets essentially ragdolled by Nihilus twice, she still is forced into a prolonged duel with him while she’s even being aided by three companions, she still ultimately defeats Nihilus, and she still, at the end of the all, proclaims Revan to have the greatest command of the Force of anyone she’s ever met. The final result is still Meetra saying Revan is Nihilus’ superior"

And how exactly would Meetra getting ragdolled by Nihilus twice make her perspective on Nihilus’s power more accurate exactly? This is all a plus to Nihilus and does not somehow make Meetra’s point of view more accurate. Her ‘prolonged fight’ is with a Telos starved Nihilus who gets severely weakened before the fight and then further weakened during the fight. Regardless of how you try to play around with it, Meetra fought a severely weakened Nihilus and therefore could not possibly tell how powerful prime Nihilus actually is. Period. And I have already addressed your out of context fight above.

This point would be valid if Revan hadn’t also been diverting energy to fending off Vitiate’s telepathic attacks, which he logically would have had to do to avoid being dominated as he was in their first encounter. The pair both also still had passive Force barriers, as all Force users do, meaning there’s still a valid metric for comparison here. Both had to redirect power to a specific task, both had passive defenses, and Vitiate was still flying backwards and landed stunned and unable to move. There’s no way this can be construed as anything less than a point in Revan’s favor.

Note also that, later in the duel, Vitiate had to charge his lightning and allow Revan to come within striking range. Vitiate created his voices because Revan came “within striking distance”, in order to “guard against further vulnerability.” Implying Vitiate had been vulnerable, if Vitiate had been so overwhelmingly superior to Revan, he wouldn’t have needed to risk his safety to put Revan down with a charged attack, allowing Revan cross 40 or near meters, get close enough for Revan to kill him, and then loose his final desperate assault in the hopes Revan would fall.

“The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan’s plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.”

-SWTOR Encyclopedia

Vitiate was pushed to near desperation, to such an extent that he was forced to risk his own life to put his attacker out of commission. He is described as having been vulnerable, and it is stated that Revan “nearly assassinated” Vitiate. This is an absolute win for the argument that Revan is comparable to Vitiate, there’s no way to interpret it otherwise.



[[Except your contrast between the two is completely out of place. Revan pushing Vitiate to the floor is not at all comparable to Revan getting destroyed by Vitiate’s lightning storm. Revan needed to get saved twice while Vitiate was not saved by anyone and still dominated Revan on his own. Revan pushing Vitiate to the ground did not give Revan a chance to kill Vitiate as you claim but Vitiate’s lightning storm required Revan to be saved twice. Two opportunities for Vitiate and none for Revan. So no, there were no situations where Revan would have been able to kill Vitiate. Simply pushing him to the floor is not enough. And the only reason Revan was able to ‘stun’ Vitiate as you claim is simply because Vitiate was not prepared as has been shown and canonically stated earlier above. Once Vitiate was prepared to fight (instead of focusing on dominating Revan’s mind) he dominated Revan. Revan put up a good fight but there is a clear victor and superior here. Revan would have also been enhanced by the Dark Side nexus. He uses both light and dark side of the force at this point. This is even evident from his ‘pure form’ attack that hit Vitiate. Only one of his attacks was a Force attack anyway, and it was a pure one.]]


I don’t see anything here that actually debunks my previous arguments, which seems to be a trend with you, you say “nuh-uh”, and supply nothing substantive to prove you’re right or committing straw mans trying to say “this quote means the same as this quote” when they don’t mean the same thing at all, that’s been this entire debate thus far. Despite your above “points”, Revan still “came with striking distance of the Emperor”, still “nearly assassinated the Emperor”, still caused Vitiate to land “in a heap”, stunned and unable to do anything, and still forced Vitiate to risk his safety to put Revan down with a charged attack while amped on a dark side nexus.

Proof Revan would have been amped by the nexus at all? We have evidence that Revan was hindered, his foresight was weakened.

“No,” Revan said. “The dark side obscures my sight. We are walking into a time and place of shadows, and I cannot promise you that we will ever come out.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

This is the only comment that’s made on Revan being affected by the nexus, and it’s a negative effect. Even if Revan’s “Force in Balance” attack was partially amped, it only would have equaled out with Vitiate, either way, Revan matches Vitiate, and his use of tutaminis wouldn’t have had the same non-existent boost that Revan’ balance attack would’ve had. My argument is left untouched, yours is still as far behind as it was at the start.


[]

It doesn’t derail the debate though. My bringing up SoR Revan is part of proving that Revan is implicitly more powerful than Nihilus, which he is. Vanilla Hero beats Vitiate, Vitiate is the most powerful dark side user known to historians to that point, and Revan can stomp a stronger version of the HoT, thus, Revan can stomp Vanilla Vitiate, making Revan intrinsically more powerful than Vitiate. The SoR point, quite simply, solidifies that Revan at his peak is beyond Nihilus, and it is entirely relevant to the conversation.”


I won’t be addressing any of this because, like I said in my previous response, derails the thread. SOR Revan was significantly amped by Yavin IV nexus and even if you were to argue he is implicitly more powerful than Nihilus, this is simply your argument and opinion and not a canonical statement.

On another note, you have completely ignored and failed to address 5 of the points I laid out to you concerning Malachor V. You completely ignored points 4,5,6,7 and 8 (shown below) from my previous response. Either you properly address each of these points in your next response or I will take it as a concession that Malachor V is completely invalid and irrelevant to argue that Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain.


----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

4. You have, again, ignored my point that Kreia couldn’t resist Malachor V and was consumed by it and yet her Force connection was not devoured. All those Malachor V similarities you kept pointing to Nihilus and yet you still haven’t explained this point. 


5. You did not explain how Revan was going to seduce light sider users to his cause if Malachor was a Force devouring planet i.e You saying Nihilus and Malachor are identical despite the fact that Malachor does not devour Force connections of people. Explain.

6. You have, again, ignored my point to provide concrete evidence of Malachor devouring Force connections. Your whole similarities to Nihilus are a complete waste of time. All those similarities you keep pointing and yet you can’t find a single concrete evidence to show Malachor devours Force connections?

7. You have, again, yet to explain to me how your whole ‘Malachor to Nihilus similarities’ or ‘Malachor is Nihilus’ is even relevant when Revan was last on Malachor BEFORE it even became a wound i.e before Malachor became a wound and thus ‘identical to Nihilus’ in your argument

8. You have yet to explain to me how Nihilus’s aura is identical to Malachor corrupting people when Malachor was already corrupting people before it even became a wound (i.e before it became identical to Nihilus in your argument). Malachor corrupts because it’s a dark side nexus not because it’s ‘identical to Nihilus’


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As for Chris’s quote, there is no point in discussing this with you anymore. We have both addressed our interpretations of it over and over again and we clearly don’t agree. Further discussing this will just waste both of our times.


Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 5:37 am
@darthbane77

Also you did not provide me with your discussion/questions with Chris.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 10:00 am
Perhaps I could help settle this matter?

1. Darth Revan was proficient in the use of Drain Force application (Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide) - same application which is attributed to Darth Nihilus. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 4037459623

Darth Revan was also capable of producing AFFLICTION, BLOCK, and DEFLECT effects with bear hands (raw power). His ALTER capacity compass Devastating Power, Distant Power, Multitarget Power, and Quicken Power. These are very impressive stats for a character.

Since Revan had become the most powerful Jedi of the Order by the end of Mandalorian Wars, it stands to reason that he would be capable of producing significant effects as of his DARTH incarnation. It is rather safe to assert that Darth Revan is/was among the most powerful Sith to have ever existed.

Darth Malak demonstrated a different technique on Star Forge, identified as Dark Healing application (Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide).

Interestingly, both Darth Traya and Darth Sion were proficient in the use of Dark Healing application - both are not stated to have Drain Force. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 1668617588

Darth Traya does have very impressive stats by the way.

Darth Nihilus was proficient in the use of both Dark Healing and Drain Force applications (Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide). Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 4037459623

The aforementioned revelation ALIGN with that of Mr. Chris Avellone that Revan was superior to Darth Traya in understanding the aspects of Drain Force. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 1668617588

-----

2. Bastila Shan certainly disclosed a monumental aspect of Star Forge:

"They're convinced that Revan will not return, so they fight amongst themselves. The betrayals mount. And no matter who wins, the Sith will loose.

There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried.

I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt tap into its power.

Knowing what we do of the builders and their fate, I am convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge.

To use it would mean the end of the Sith... and the end of the Force."

Emphasis mine. Revan, with his newfound powers, was the only Force-user in the known galaxy who could handle the Star Forge, but this CONSTUCT would eventually do to the Sith what it did to the Rakatans, and PROBABLY MUCH WORSE.

Therefore, Star Forge is a stupendously dangerous CONSTRUCT which should be left alone (or be destroyed). And yes, it is/was doing Drain Force in the nutshell.

Revan's ability to handle the Star Forge suggest that he had DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES in relation; DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES which other Sith did not had (members of the Sith Empire created by Revan).

Revan might be capable of rendering himself IMMUNE to the effects of Drain Force for a while - though there are limitations to this application as well.

Footage for reference:-



-----

3. Bastila Shan also alluded to a mystery technique used by Revan to CORRUPT and/or KILL his subjects which he had sourced from the Unknown Regions:

"I've become certain that there is something he remembered in the Unknown Regions. It is a technique he learned fighting the Mandalorians, that allowed him to convert the last of the Jedi who fought beside him - and murder those who would not."


It is obvious that Bastila is alluding to the fact that he had sourced a mystery technique from the Unknown Regions and utilized it to devastating effect in his exploits; Revan's journey and exposure to forgotten Sith worlds such as Malachor V and NATHEMA most likely, and he sourced said mystery technique from these regions.

The aforementioned revelation ALIGN with that of Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide that this mystery technique is most likely Drain Force (one of his special talents). Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 2266747095

Bastila Shan's statements suggest that Revan was able to CORRUPT and/or KILL his subjects with Drain Force application - a testament to his COMMAND and CONTROL of said technique while employing it.

-----

4. COMMAND OF THE FORCE does not preclude RAW POWER from evaluation.

Revan's remarkable 'command of the Force' being highlighted in chronological order below.

1) Revan's remarkable 'command of the Force' become apparent from the following consideration:

Effective interrogation was an art, and Scourge had an innate ability to parse fact from fiction. He knew what questions to ask and in what order; he understood when to ratchet up the intensity and when to pull back. He knew how to use the threat of pain and the reward of mercy to control his subjects.

His advanced techniques, combined with his ability to draw upon the dark side, allowed him to quickly dominate weak minds. Strong-willed subjects were more of a challenge, yet in the end he always got results. Until now.

Interrogating the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions. But there was something else, as well.


Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Take notes: Revan was able to demonstrate CONTROL even in the most dire of circumstances.

2) Following revelation is self-explanatory and shall CAP the ongoing discussion:

The Jedi's command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength. After years of studying him, Scourge had come to understand why the Jedi had such a fearsome reputation among the Sith. With men and women like Revan in their ranks, it was easy to see how they had beaten back the Sith invasion a thousand years earlier. And it confirmed what he already suspected: the Emperor's plan to launch another invasion against the Republic at this point in time was tantamount to suicide.

However, it was more than the Jedi's raw power that interested Scourge. Unlike all the instructors at the Academy, or even Nyriss herself, Revan had experienced both the light and dark sides of the Force. He had a unique perspective on its strengths and weaknesses, and Scourge was eager to learn from his experience.


Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Take notes: Revan made Lord Scourge realize why invading the Republic was a bad idea....

REPEAT: COMMAND OF THE FORCE does not preclude RAW POWER from evaluation.

Please consider reading following blog as well: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3394-revan-revisited-2020-updated-and-expanded#62793

3) Then comes the Meetra Surik part:

She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn't hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Take notes: Meetra seems to be thinking in the PRESENT-DAY context with Lord Scourge in view. However, her assessment is in SYNC with revelation no. 2 above.

Meetra was completely aware of the capabilities of Revan - what he managed to SOURCE from Malachor V and NATHEMA respectively - she would be absolutely aware of Revan's proficiency in the use of Drain Force application and other techniques (she was one of his chief followers back then). Please keep in mind the fact that Revan had become the most powerful Jedi by now.

4) Then comes the Darth Nyriss part:

Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.

Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion

Take notes: Revan established himself as being Yoda TIER and then some.

5) Revan's remarkable COMMAND OF THE FORCE in summation:

He was older and wiser. He understood that the two sides of the Force were more closely intertwined with each other than either the Jedi or the Sith would ever admit. He had learned to balance on the knife-edge between them, drawing on both the light and dark sides for strength.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Take notes: THAT was the benchmark he had set in the CONTROL spectrum - virtually impossible standard for any Jedi to live up to given the Jedi philosophy and teachings.

-----

5. THE BOTTOM LINE

The LINE between 'raw power' and 'command of the Force' is a BLURRY one, particularly in relation to the perceived capability of the Force-user(s).

The term 'command of the Force' allude to implied capabilities with CONTROL and ALTER aspects in the mix. This perspective perfectly ALIGN with that of Meetra and also that of Bastila:

"I've become certain that there is something he remembered in the Unknown Regions. It is a technique he learned fighting the Mandalorians, that allowed him to convert the last of the Jedi who fought beside him - and murder those who would not."

Bastila was alluding to a mystery technique which Revan had sourced from the Unknown Regions and utilized it to devastating effect in his exploits - this mystery technique is most likely Drain Force. This also help explain that Revan was able to TEACH this technique to an ELITE group of Sith Assassins to do his bidding.

From Mr. Chris;

Well, Kreia says there’s no defense against it, but she doesn’t know everything. She wasn’t expecting to be attacked, nor in that manner, or she would never have left herself vulnerable. I see Revan as being more tactically sound than Kreia ever was (and Revan could beat Kreia, no doubt about it-the student far surpassed the master.)”

The aforementioned statement ALIGN with revelations of Bastila Shan when she was talking about the Star Forge and what it did to those who attempted to harness its power for personal gains. Revan's ability to handle the Star Forge suggest that he had DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES in relation; DEFENSIVE CAPABILITIES which other Sith did not had (members of the Sith Empire created by Revan). Revan might be capable of rendering himself IMMUNE to the effects of Drain Force for a while - though there are limitations to this application as well.

There's that.

Please note that Darth Traya's exposure was limited to Malachor V - she never visited NATHEMA. She never used the Star Forge either (not that I am aware of). Revan had sufficient exposure to all three. He knew better.

THE INSTANT THE EBON HAWK dropped out of hyperspace near Nathema, Revan was overwhelmed by a barrage of mental images. Everything came crashing in on him, the memories he was so desperate to regain fusing with a trauma he had tried so hard to repress. Caught between the two, he cried out and clutched his head in his hands.

For several seconds he didn’t move, his conscious will battling with his runaway subconscious. One by one, he was able to take the recollections, process them, and store them away, slowly regaining control.

He knew with absolute certainty that he had been to this world before. He remembered its deserted city and its lifeless surface. He remembered searching the empty buildings with Malak, looking for archives, records, and astrogation charts that would guide them on the next step of the journey. But most of all, he remembered the horror of a dead planet entirely stripped of the Force.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

Besides Revan, only Darth Malak and Meetra knew about NATHEMA. Both never mentioned this Sith world and/or disclosed it to others.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 4:01 pm
@S_W_LeGenD

I am not sure if you read my response above, but I have pretty much gone through most of the things you are talking about. 

-I have thoroughly gone through the Star Forge

-The supposed 'mystery technique' is entirely different than Force drain. I mean Force drain literally does not corrupt users unlike this ‘technique’. Funnily enough, the Sith Assassins used Sith poison to convert Jedi and they were taught by Revan. This Sith poison is described to lower one's resistance to the dark side.

-I have gone through 'Command of the Force' thoroughly and used over 10 quotes to support its context

-I have gone through Meetra's quote which we are both in big disagreement with and even shown how invalid her perspective of Nihilus is. I think it's very clearly talking about MW Revan and would not make any sense at all to be present Revan. So, I absolutely don't buy any of the 'SYNC with Revelation .2' claims.

-Revan's exposure to Malachor V is entirely irrelevant and even invalid to compare to Nihilus. His Star Forge exposure is also the same as I have thoroughly shown in my above response.


And I have reasons to believe that the 'Drain Force' in Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide is not attributed to Nihilus's technique specifically. Interestingly, the Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide does not define Drain Force. The Dark Side Sourcebook defines it as:

"draw life energy from living beings, gradually absorbing it

―Star Wars: The Dark Side Sourcebook

Nowhere does it mention anything about devouring Force energies, which is what Nihilus’s technique is mainly about. Interestingly, neither the Dark Side Sourcebook or the Campaign Guide define or even use the phrase ‘Drain Life’ in their books to distinguish Nihilus’s drain from the usual Drain. Another source defines ‘Drain Life’ exactly the same way as ‘Drain Force’.

Drain life: A delicate procedure that saps the life energy of another and funnels it directly into your own essence. It is extremely difficult to employ in combat and is derived from the teachings of Zelashiel the Blasphemer in the Holocron of Darth Revan.

-Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Funnily enough, the other source does not define or even use the phrase ‘Drain Force’ to distinguish it from ‘Drain Life’. It is becoming increasingly clear that ‘Drain Force’ in Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide is talking about the usual Drain and not Nihilus’s technique. Not only that, but the Sith Assassins don’t even have the ‘Drain Force’ ability in the Campaign Guide when we know for a fact that they utilized Nihilus’s technique. This is even the same case as Kreia when she devoured those Jedi Masters using the technique and yet no ‘Drain Force’ is attributed to her. In addition to all this, the ‘Drain Force’ technique is even attributed to ‘Dark Lord of the Sith’ in the Campaign Guide when we know for a fact that Nihilus’s technique has only been utilized by a few people.

And as a matter of fact, Revan having 'Drain Force' does not even mean he knows more than Kreia. It means he can use Drain Force. The Campaign Guide is talking about abilities and not knowledge of something and either way Nihilus has the same exact attributes of 'Drain Force' as Revan and Nihilus himself took the technique to a whole new level making him possibly the most knowledgeable on it anyways. At worst, Nihilus knows just as much as Revan if you want to use the Campaign Guide for comparison of knowledge.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 16th 2020, 10:28 pm
I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 17th 2020, 5:42 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
@darthbane77 

What about your dialogue with Chris?
darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 18th 2020, 9:46 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
@darthbane77 

What about your dialogue with Chris?

I said I'd give it to you, I didn't say I'd do so immediately or in my next post.

Will post  my next response probably tomorrow.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 18th 2020, 10:01 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
@darthbane77 

What about your dialogue with Chris?

I said I'd give it to you, I didn't say I'd do so immediately or in my next post.

Will post  my next response probably tomorrow.

@darthbane77

And why are you delaying it and not giving it right now exactly? It's literally a screenshot.
darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 18th 2020, 10:13 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
@darthbane77 

What about your dialogue with Chris?

I said I'd give it to you, I didn't say I'd do so immediately or in my next post.

Will post  my next response probably tomorrow.

@darthbane77

And why are you delaying it and not giving it right now exactly? It's literally a screenshot.

You'll get it, I'll try to remember it tomorrow. If not, after this discussion is finished, which I get the sense it almost is.
Hellsjudge
Hellsjudge

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 20th 2020, 9:11 am
1. Malachor V and The Star Forge are not even remotely similar. The Star Forge does not prey upon one's Force connections. It was Malak himself who was draining the captured Jedi's life essences. The Star Forge was simply a tool feeding off the dark side energies caused by darksiders. 


2. Malachor V does not reflect Nihilus' nature. As a matter of fact. Visas states the difference between Malachor and Katarr. 


"I did not mean to draw comparisons between Katarr and Malachor… my homeworld still exists. It is… intact. The planet was not destroyed, it remains… it orbits, dead in space, but nothing lives on its surface. It echoes, but there is no one left to hear it."
-Visas Marr


Last edited by Hellsjudge on June 20th 2020, 9:18 am; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 20th 2020, 9:18 am
The GOAT is back.

Spoiler:
Freedumb Nadd. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 3344068304
darthbane77
darthbane77

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 20th 2020, 2:28 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
@darthbane77 wrote:I'll respond to this hopefully tomorrow or the day after, I'll try not to keep you waiting too long.
@darthbane77 

What about your dialogue with Chris?

I said I'd give it to you, I didn't say I'd do so immediately or in my next post.

Will post  my next response probably tomorrow.

@darthbane77

And why are you delaying it and not giving it right now exactly? It's literally a screenshot.

Sorry for the delay again, stuff came up and I've been busy. After today I'll be free to finish my response though.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 20th 2020, 9:38 pm
@Darth Nihilus wrote:
Jaggarath wrote:@Darth Nihilus:

I think you're missing the point.

The fact the game does not debuff the Hero or Satele during the fight is the point. When assessing the effects of both nexuses, we need to look at the available continuity evidence. S-Continuity's contrast between (1) a stated and visually shown buff that gives all characters a 200% increase in all stats and (2) an unstated and unshown debuff through gameplay plainly illustrates that the first amp is far more powerful than the second one. And, yes, "that is just game mechanics"--which are, again, S-Continuity per Star Wars Insider 101 and "designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created" and "can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another" per Leland Chee. So, the stats are canon (which means it's usable as evidence), it's made to match the lore under the purposes of the game (which means the game intentionally greatly prioritizes the battle meditation amp over the Yavin IV nexus), and it's well-suited for comparisons between characters (which means you can use the gameplay to assess how Revan fares versus the strike team).

Also, there is long precedent in the lore for legendary battle meditation displays to be on mega dark side nexuses. Arca Jeth uses battle meditation to turn the tide in the battle of Onderon. Bastila Shan uses battle meditation in the heart of the Star Forge--easily one of the most powerful dark side nexuses ever--to turn the tide of the battle of Lehon despite absurd odds. Worror Dowmat, a second-rate practitioner, uses battle meditation to greatly empower his strike team on Tython. So, actually, do you even have an example of battle meditation being greatly diminished by passive dark side energies? That seems like a good place to start your argument.

Besides, and perhaps most importantly, Satele's battle meditation is empowering the Force abilities of Darth Marr and the Hero of Tython equally and simultaneously. Ergo, clearly Satele must not be using light side energies for this feat, or else Marr obviously would not be empowered. Satele's battle meditation here, instead, must be of neutral alignment or raw Force substance. Given that’s necessarily the case, I don’t see a way or reason to even entertain the notion her effects were diminished.

I'm sorry, but you don't really have a case here. You're just pointing out the maybe-what if-possibility that the Yavin IV nexus had greater effects than the battle meditation amp. This is directly rejected by S-Continuity, further put into question by precedent, and ultimately baseless due to the nature of Satele's battle meditation.

PS: Satele is not both fighting and using battle meditation against Revan. She's just using battle meditation. Her focus is not split.

The Dark Apprentice wrote:So just being of a bloodline means you inherit the hype and scaling of your ancestor? Sounds like BULLSHIT there insect66

I never made this contention.

@Jaggarath

The question I am trying to get into is that are these 'character stats' taking into account the impact of the dark side nexus of Yavin IV? And I am talking about this before the Revan fight and Satele using her BM. When the characters are in Yavin IV, are their stats impacted or are they unchanged relative to another planet/place? If the stats are unchanged, then the game is not taking into account the impact of the dark side nexus into account with respect to the character stats and ,as such, Satele's BM is not shown to be more impactful because the dark side nexus is not taken into account with those stats. If the character stats are unchanged (before the Revan fight/Satele's BM) then it's like saying there is no dark side nexus although we know that's not true. So this whole thing goes back to those stats/numbers. If they are changed when you are on Yavin IV (prior to Satele's BM) then you would be right to assume that Satele's BM is more impactful. However, if those numbers are unchanged, then you can't conclude that Satele's BM is more impactful as the dark side nexus impact is not taken into account even when Satele is not using her BM. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I essentially want to know if those stats take into account the DS nexus (and prior to Satele's BM).

As I said, the fact the game does not adjust for the Yavin IV nexus debuff is the point. Refer back to my first paragraph for my explanation. If you don't get that, no worries, refer to my other points that should sufficiently address the amp/hindrances independent of the stats point.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 20th 2020, 11:34 pm
@DarthAnt66

@DarthAnt66 wrote:As I said, the fact the game does not adjust for the Yavin IV nexus debuff is the point. Refer back to my first paragraph for my explanation. If you don't get that, no worries, refer to my other points that should sufficiently address the amp/hindrances independent of the stats point.

I think I already understand your argument in the first paragraph. You are essentially saying that Satele's BM overcame the nexus's debuff and so 'the fact the game does not adjust for the Yavin IV nexus debuff is the point' because her BM was superior. And in response, I said that you have to show that the characters (light sided ones) have reduced stats when Satele is not using her BM on Yavin IV. If the characters do not have reduced stats when Satele is not even using her BM, then it clearly shows that the nexus debuff is not taken into account in those stats when even under the normal conditions of Satele not utilizing her BM. And so regardless of what 200 or 500% increase Satele's BM does during the Revan fight, it does not show superiority over the nexus debuff because the nexus debuff is not even shown under the conditions of Satele not using her BM on Yavin IV. One is taken into account in those stats, and the other is not taken into account under any conditions.  All the 200% buffs Satele's BM would show is that it enhanced the characters but would not mean it was more impactful than the nexus debuffs. In other words, her 200% amps may have only helped to lessen the impact of the debuff of the nexus and not overcome it or even show superiority to it. You have to show that the characters have reduced stats when Satele is not using her BM on Yavin IV to prove that the stats are taking into account the nexus debuffs in the first place. Only then could you argue that Satele's BM shows superiority over the nexus because it would show that when Satele is not using her BM the characters have reduced stats but when Satele is using her BM the characters are more empowered despite the debuff.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 22nd 2020, 1:09 am
@darthbane77

I also want to mention the following points I came across relating to the discussion and they are pretty decisive on Meetra’s ‘Command of the Force’ topic.

Meetra: “I don’t understand how he hasn’t conquered the galaxy with that kind of power.”

Kreia: “Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled… and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake. And it rules him, not the other way round, it has its own will, its own instincts."

- Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

The above quote is huge to our discussion relating to Meetra’s quote and should honestly finish that discussion for good. Notice here how Meetra is confused as to why Nihilus has not conquered the galaxy with his power which is a clear indication that Meetra views Nihilus’s power as enormous and above anyone else she has meet. She considers him being able to conquer the galaxy because of his power. This means Meetra view’s Nihilus’s power as something she has not seen before and therefore above MW Revan in terms of power. Not only that, but notice Kreia’s response to Meetra. She says that Nihilus’s power cannot truly be controlled which is directly related to Nihilus’s command of the Force and therefore further supports why Meetra considered Revan’s command greater than anyone else despite viewing Nihilus as more powerful than Revan because Nihilus (the man) does not have full control, which is directly related to Command of the Force.


Meetra viewing Nihilus as more powerful than MW Revan is further supported again.

Kriea: “Power? Do you think so? {Shakes head} You would be wrong. There is no strength in the hunger he possesses... and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others - his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead; it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls.

Meetra: “That kind of power is impossible.”

Kreia: “Nothing is impossible with the Force. It is an energy that flows through all living things.”

-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

Meetra, despite knowing MW Revan, considered Nihilus’s power as impossible indicating she has not seen anyone as powerful as him before. And this directly supports the previous quote I mentioned. All evidence suggests that Meetra views Nihilus’s power as on a different level than anyone else she has ever meet with his power being able to conquer the galaxy and being impossible to have, from Meetra’s perspective. Nihilus’s lack of control (and his hunger ruling him), as mentioned by Kreia to Meetra, would have driven Meetra to quote Revan having the greatest Command of the Force, a direct relation to control.


Last edited by Darth Nihilus on June 22nd 2020, 7:36 am; edited 1 time in total
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 22nd 2020, 7:09 am
@Darth Nihilus: Reduce your text size. It makes your posts practically unreadable.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 22nd 2020, 7:20 am
@Sjuttiosju wrote:@Darth Nihilus: Reduce your text size. It makes your posts practically unreadable.
@Sjuttiosju

Oh sorry about that. I will make them smaller from now on and will try to edit some of my current posts. Thanks for the note.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

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on June 22nd 2020, 7:21 am
Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 1289255181 Good man.
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 22nd 2020, 10:03 pm
I feel like DB77 made such a flamboyant post to distract from his opponents points. Reminds me of Ant lol
darthbane77
darthbane77

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on June 22nd 2020, 10:07 pm
@Vader's Legacy wrote:I feel like DB77 made such a flamboyant post to distract from his opponents points. Reminds me of Ant lol

Not sure what you mean by this. But I'll take it as a compliment. Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 228124001
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

on June 23rd 2020, 12:28 am
Still waiting on those Chris screenshots by the way....
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Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

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