Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

Nute_Chethray wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:

Darth Nihilus wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that. We were more about Anakin/Dooku's 'immunity' from Force drain.

they have it in the same way unless im missing something about how dooku get it but anakin sure have it

Their point was that the "Immunity" is for a very short duration only, not something that'll block off Nihilus's drain permanently

that quote is kinda hypérbole since anakin was able to face the reaper without too much problem for a long exposure.

How is it hyperbole? We know that Ulic, the one that taught the technique, expressively and repeatedly stated that it only works for a short time, which would be a waste of time if it actually was a permanent immunity. And whether its "long exposure" depends on the player. As we see here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-RInCZGX8ng it took roughly 6 minutes, most of which was spent dodging attacks, shooting other targets and chasing ammo/hp. Anakin in-lore actually was the greatest pilot of the order, and would be way more effective than a casual player. The latter action (ammo/hp) wouldn't even exist in-lore. I don't see why being a bad player + gameplay mechanics trump the word of a master of the technique.

Additionaly, note that the immunity itself isn't something that passively surrounds Anakin, but rather an ability he has to actively use, which would be difficult during a fight rather than a machine and due to the fact that Anakin wouldn't know he should use it in advance. 

Finally, said ability is noted to be darkside-alligned, so a morals on Anakin probably wouldn't consider using it untill KFV, and still, there the former points apply.

@darthbane77

Out of curiosity, what were the two questions(the blacked out ones in the image you provided) that you asked Chris? One of them seems to be talking about Nihilus.

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

Question, is there a site where you downloaded this? Or do you just have it on your computer?

I don't said that a Bad player+gameplay triumphs over lore but Even if ulic said previously it's only for a short time the very same mission takes aprox 8 min to complete which is very Notorious to say since it was a very large battle.

And Even then if anakin and nihilus fight it whould be sufficient time for the most experienced fighter to take a advantage especially if we're talking about kfv which like You said it whould not doubt to use the technic Even if it is for a short time.

the same i could Say about dooku.

Zenwolf wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

Question, is there a site where you downloaded this? Or do you just have it on your computer?

I encounter a mega link for sources that i could pm it to You.

Darth Nihilus wrote:@darthbane77

Out of curiosity, what were the two questions(the blacked out ones in the image you provided) that you asked Chris? One of them seems to be talking about Nihilus.

Blacked them out because his answers weren't relevant to the discussion or weren't clear, and didn't wanna risk anyone getting sidetracked by an irrelevant tangent.

The first question I asked him was whether he thought Revan was just flat out more powerful than Nihilus, or if Nihilus was stronger. His answer wasn't a definitive one. He said he's a firm believer in the hero of the story, that the hero is pretty much always gonna win. He used Luke Skywalker as an example, saying Luke emerged from the events of RotJ the victor even though Palpatine was more powerful. The third question was the same general situation, I asked him point blank if Revan knew the drain technique Nihilus uses, and he said that if Revan knew it he wouldn't have used it because using it surrenders the user's identity to the Dark Side and they become hollow, which isn't something a true Sith would want, but he never gave me a straight forward answer for either of those questions. I can send you the original screenshot if you want, but imo what he says is useless for both our arguments because he's non-committal af.

I'm gonna begin work on my counter here tonight.

[[While at first glance the Sith assassins that Revan trained may seem like the Sith assassins using Nihilus’s technique, there are some points in place. Firstly, it is clearly stated that the technique has to be gained through instinct and by experiencing it’s effects first hand. When Revan trained those Sith assassination units, this was all before KOTOR 2 and before any Force wounds. As such, how were these assassins able to learn this technique in the first place? Not just that, but Atton Rand clearly says that he was in the special units trained to do this and yet we never see him using Nihilus’s technique anywhere. Also those Sith unit’s, that Revan trained, specific purpose was to capture Jedi in order for Revan to convert them while the Sith Assassins using techniques in the Force killed Jedi.]]

Malachor V was a wound in the Force prior to the events seen directly in KotoR II, it’s constantly iterated throughout the game that the wound in the Force on Malachor V was caused by the mass death created by the Mass Shadow Generator. The Battle of Malachor V did, after all, take place five years prior to KotOR II, and the Jedi Council in flashbacks and in conversation both state they can feel the wound in Meetra, or feel Malachor’s impact on her. Revan trained the assassins after the end of the Manadlorian Wars, during his tenure as Dark Lord of the Sith, which is supported by Atton Rand in a quote I provided earlier (which you just referenced), but will provide again.

"So Revan trained elite Sith units into assassination squads, whose duty was to go out and capture enemy Jedi. I was in one of the special units trained to do this. Revan had plans for all Jedi. I think it was important that the Jedi see her side of things, the Sith teachings. Revan wanted to break them. And then have them join him."
Source: Atton Rand, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

The fact it’s stated directly that Revan trained “Sith” assassination units gives away that he didn’t train them until after the Mandalorian Wars had ended, and after the Wound in the Force on Malachor V had already formed.

While Atton personally may not have demonstrated all the abilities of the assassins in question, that does not change the fact that during the war Jedi “fell at the hands of Sith assassins” that were explicitly noted to use powers that “Jedi could not defend against”, as I pointed out in my opening statements. That Atton personally does not showcase these abilities is irrelevant, because other Sith assassins trained and employed by Darth Revan did utilize them. So my point remains, Revan trained Sith assassins that Kreia later found on Malachor V (hmm, how interesting) that are known to have killed Jedi using powers they could not defend against, which is exactly how Kreia described the powers used by Nihilus (hmm, how interesting x2.)

Kreia even states explicitly that what Nihilus does is just what the Assassins do, taken to its peak.

The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force... what he does is simply the pinnacle of what they could achieve, in time

- KotOR II

It’s the same exact technique, Nihilus is just much better at it than they are. So Revan knows this Drain variant, and he’s taught it to others. I really don’t see how this point is arguable.

Ultimately, I fail to see how your above “point” is to be considered an actual or valid counter. The sources say what they say, as I just finished pointing out, and singling out Atton singularly does nothing to debunk any of what I established previously.

[[If Kreia learned about this technique from Darth Revan(who assuming taught those assassins) and she is actually claiming that there is no defense against it, then this clearly implies that Darth Revan did not have a defense against it either or else Kreia would have learned a defense against it from Revan.Not just that, but even if Revan taught this technique, Nihilus took it to a completely different level with his ‘life draining gift’ as Kreia calls it. Kreia ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ could have easily meant that she would have kept a distance from Nihilus had she expected him to attack her like that. However, Revan would not have taken such a risk of being vulnerable and hence Chris mentions Revan being more tactically sound.]]

This is a pretty weird tangent that isn’t based on anything I said. I never said Kreia learned the power from Revan, I said Revan taught the Sith assassins, which is confirmed to be true. Where Kreia learned the power is of no consequence when we know for a fact that Revan did teach it to the assassins, and Kreia’s knowledge (or lack thereof) of a specific Force ability doesn’t imply that another character can’t know something about it that she doesn’t, you attempting to insinuate otherwise is a rather sizable leap in logic that has no basis in any known source.

Kreia “leaving herself vulnerable” can also easily mean that, had she been prepared, she could have protected herself, or allayed the effects to an extent. Let’s look at my question and his response though.

Me: “Would what Revan learned on Malachor V allow him to defend himself against Nihilus’ otherwise indefensible drain technique?”

Avellone: “Well, Kreia says there’s no defense against it, but she doesn’t know everything. She wasn’t expecting to be attacked, nor in that manner, or she would never have left herself vulnerable. I see Revan as being more tactically sound than Kreia ever was (and Revan could beat Kreia, no doubt about it-the student far surpassed the master.)”

So let’s break this down, shall we? My question is direct, “would what Revan learned on Malachor let him resist Nihilus’ drain” (obvious paraphrasing, same question) so there can be no doubt about exactly what is being asked. Chris then says “she doesn’t know everything”, so he’s saying “well Kreia doesn’t think there’s a defense, but she’s not all knowing” leaving clear doubt about her authority on the matter, her word in regard to this topic is fallible, non-authoritative, an educated guess. Chris then says Kreia was not expecting to be attacked at all, nor in the way she was, i.e, she was caught entirely off guard with a Force power she personally couldn’t defend against. The next line is essentially a contrast between Kreia’s handling of the situation and what Revan’s would have been, “I see Revan as being more tactically sound then Kreia ever was”, in response to “she wasn’t expecting to be attacked”, meaning Revan would have been expecting the attack, and would have been prepared to defend himself. He then goes on to state the obvious “the student far surpassed the master.)”

Looping back, Revan taught the assassins, and Kreia knew what the assassins knew (presumably), Avellone comments that Revan surpassed Kreia, and that Kreia doesn’t know everything, and implies Revan would have been able to defend himself. So the implication here is that Revan did know more about the technique than he taught the assassins, and knew more than Kreia came to.

So to put this into shorter to read points:

1. Kreia is not correct about there being no defense against the drain.
2. Revan would have been prepared for the attack, and “far surpassed” Kreia. The implication here, based on all surrounding context, is that Revan could have defended himself if put in Kreia’s shoes.
3. Revan far surpassed Kreia. If anyone knows how to defend against the drain, it’s him.

Needless to say, I don’t find your suggestion that Chris is simply saying not being vulnerable could “have easily meant that she would have kept a distance from Nihilus had she expected him to attack her like that” to have any merit whatsoever based on the actual language used in Avellone’s response.

[[You have completely ignored the fact that the Star Forge life drained users and does not devour Force connections like Nihilus. Not to mention the Star Forge draining users is no where near as Nihilus draining planets.]]

Actually, it’s you who ignored my point, which is that the Star Forge, like Nihilus, was a threat to the very existence of the Force itself. The very fact that the Star Forge shares that similarity with Nihilus’ variant of Force Drain is indicative of the destruction of Force connections, as in order to literally destroy the Force, those connections would have to be cut, which happens to be a central theme of KotOR II, loss of connections to the Force. Unless you can provide evidence of a way to kill the Force without severing Force connections? Unless you can do so, how can you argue what they do is not the same? Hell, Kreia, who was not credited as a threat to the Force like Nihilus and the Star Forge, is seen destroying Force connections herself.





https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/12/124590/5325247-2882061282-giphy.gif




“This master is dead...drained of life. His body is worse than lifeless, it's like an absence in the Force.”

Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords

The wound in Meetra is credited as the same.

"What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi."

-Vrook, KotOR II

It should also be noted that Nihilus does “life drain” just like the Star Forge. He consumes planets’ “life energy”, exactly as the Star Forge did to its victims.

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/images/1300-7407593

So…

1. The Star Forge and Nihilus both feed on life energies.
2. The Star Forge and Nihilus both can destroy connections to the Force by virtue of being able to cause the death of the Force.
3. Kreia, who we’ve established “doesn’t know everything” and whom Revan “far surpassed” uses the same variation of drain as Nihilus, which is seen by her killing of the Jedi Council on Dantooine.

I once again fail to see how your counter here amounts to anything more than a “nuh-uh” response, because you’ve failed to actually provide anything substantive.

[[Assuming Revan knows this technique, that does not mean he can defend against it. Why? Kreia knew this technique and yet she couldn’t defend against it. Not only that, she even mentions that there is no defense against it. Considering she learned this technique from Revan, this clearly implies that Revan did not have any defense against it. “it’s unreasonable to posit that a Sith Lord as intelligent, tactically sound, and careful as Darth Revan, would teach a technique to followers that he himself would be unable to protect himself against.” Another baseless assumption with nothing to present.]]

Literally all of this is already addressed in my first response in this comment, so I won’t bother tearing it apart again right here.

[[What is this point suppose to lead to? Another irrelevant similarity? Echo is more of a beacon anyways. Not that it matters to the arguments anyways.]]

The point is that they’re literal extensions of Malachor, as evidenced by the quotes I already provided, which you haven’t addressed. If Nihilus and Meetra are symptomatic of the original wound in the Force, Malachor V, then it stands to reason that Malachor V’s wound has many or all of the same abilities.

[[Revan resisting the life draining effects of the Star Forge is completely irrelevant. Not the same as Nihilus’s drain. Simply mentioning that using the Star Forge would mean ‘the end of the Force’ does not mean it’s devouring Force connections. Again, another baseless assumption.]]

Addressed above in this comment already. You do realize that simply saying “that’s a baseless assumption” without actually providing evidence that proves that statement is “How Not to Debate 101”, correct?

[[As a matter of fact, the idea that ‘Command of the force’ referring to knowledge/mastery/ability to direct/control/use/call upon and not raw Power is supported on many occasions by novels written by Drew Karpyshyn. I have placed many quotes below written by Drew Karpyshyn on his novels. On each ‘Command of the Force’ instance, I have used [ ] to describe what it meant from knowledge/mastery/ability to direct/control/use/call upon. It is very clear that ‘Command of the Force’ does not always mean raw Force power. In fact, in most cases it doesn’t.]]

The context of a given quote is what’s relevant. Given you didn’t attack the quotes I provided, I assume that you don’t disagree that the Bane novel quotes I provided are all in reference to raw power, rather than mastery. Which is all I needed to prove. Drew has used “command of the Force” to reference power in the Force, which I substantiated and explained, and you haven’t debunked the “Revan” novel quote as referring to applicable power, which the context of the quote clearly is referencing, despite your initial vain efforts at claiming otherwise.

All of that said, none of the quotes you’ve provided say what you’re claiming they do. “Command of the Force” is, linguistically, not the same as an excerpt simply using “command” and “Force” at different spots in that excerpt. “Command of the Force” is is a phrase with a distinct definition, and in every instance where Drew has used that exact phrase, he has been referring to applicable/actualized power.

[[He was completely aware of his surroundings at all times, sensing the presence of others. Sometimes he could even get a feel of their intentions, vague impressions of their very thoughts. He was able to levitate larger objects now, and for longer periods. With each lesson his power [Distinguished from Command] grew. It became easier and easier to command the Force [Control] [ Raw Force power doesn’t not many any sense here] and bend [Use it to his will] it to his will.]]

The phrase “command of the Force” is not present in this excerpt, so how exactly does this prove your point?

[[True victory in this war will not come through armies, but through the Brotherhood of Darkness. Our greatest weapon is the Force, and those individuals who have the power to command it [Command is the ability to use/direct the Force; No raw Force power context here]. Individuals like you.]]

Again, “command of the Force” as a phrase is not used here. Simply citing that “command” and “Force” are used in the same sentence is not linguistically the same thing.

[["The power [Not Command; Distinguished] of the dark side. The heat of passion and emotion. I can feel it in you, as well. Burning beneath the surface. Burning like your anger. It makes you strong."]]

The word “command”, which is vital to the “command of the Force” phrase, and your argument, is not even present in this quote. So once more, how does this help you at all? You have half the phrase in here, two words out of “command of the Force”, “the” and “of.” Using this as evidence for your stance is like trying to make a sandwich without putting anything between the bread. Massive reach.

[[There was, however, one sanctioned way students could bring a rival down: lightsaber combat. The chosen weapon of both the Jedi and the Sith, the lightsaber was more than just a blade of energy capable of cutting through almost every material in the known galaxy. The lightsaber was an extension of the user and his or her command of the Force [ Mastery; refer to the next bold parts and pay close attention to ‘mental discipline’; Lightsaber is also not dependent on Raw Force Power ]. Only those with strict mental discipline and total physical mastery could use the weapon effectively ... or so Bane and the others had been taught.]]

This quote can mean either of our interpretations. “Mastery” is not specified in the quote, you’re making the assumption that it’s mastery. In “Path of Destruction”, Karpyshyn says something else similar to this in a quote I used earlier.

“Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style.”

-Path of Destruction

Clearly Drew is drawing ties between dueling skill and the Force, that much I won’t dispute. What I will dispute, is that it inherently means he’s referencing mastery. As I argued before, regarding the quote above, mastery of the Force won’t allow one to successfully use a lightsaber, their power in it does, it allows them to be faster, stronger, or more agile than their opponent, allows for better precognition, etc.

Note, however, how virtually all of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the mythos are also the most applicably powerful Force users. Sidious, Yoda, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, all more powerful than any and all Jedi and Sith to come before them, and all placed in Tier 9 of George Lucas and Nick Gillard’s lightsaber dueling tier lists. Luke Skywalker, arguably the single most powerful conventional/non-deity Force user in the mythos, the “greatest Jedi in the history of the galaxy”, also happens to be arguably the single greatest lightsaber duelist ever, having bested Sidious in single combat, stated to be the only living Jedi capable of beating Darth Caedus in a straight fight. Revan, whose power and skill allowed him to fight veritable armies of nexus amped Sith, Star Forge droids, and Darth Malak, the list can go on.

So my point here is, sure, the quote could mean mastery, but given the number if massively powerful Force users also seems to be nearly the same as massively skilled swordsman, and that the same individuals are both lists, sets the precedent that its power in the Force, not mastery, directly ties in to effectiveness with a lightsaber.

Elsewhere in the novel  imply that power is what’s referenced.

Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek’s unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

-Path of Destruction

As with before, “mastery” would make no sense in this context, how would Bane allow his mastery of the Force to flow through him? We see exactly what your quote is referencing, the lightsaber as an extension of the user’s “command of the Force”, i.e, their “power.” Another excerpt, from the same section of the novel (Bane’s fight with Kas’im) outright shows that Bane winning the duel (prior to Kas’im swapping forms to one alien to Bane) was due to his power in the Force.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now.

-Path of Destruction

Based on these other passages from the novel itself, I believe it’s self evident that it’s “power” in the Force that is relevant to lightsaber combat, not “mastery.”

The remainder of the quotes you posted suffer from the same issues as these ones, they don’t use “command of the Force”, they use separation of “command” and “Force” or “dark side”, but without being in the context of the phrase “command of the Force”, you have no basis for comparison, and so your entire attempt at discrediting my argument has been pointless. The baseline conclusion now remains that every quote Drew uses where “command of the Force” is referenced, it’s referring to applicable power, not mastery.

[[Meetra knowing what Nihilus has done ‘before that meeting’ will not allow her to sense how powerful Nihilus is in the Force. She hasn’t even meet him at that point. Also, consider the following:

"A scene where the players are approaching Nihilus from behind, he doesn't even turn around as they advance down the bridge. Nihilus turns, raises his hand, and the entire party is raised into the air, similar to Force Crush. He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed. Nihilus lets player fall and get to her feet. Nihilus walks over to the player. Player kneels. As Nihilus reaches out with his power, he drains the player with vampiric energy, and then suddenly reels back, collapsing on the ground. “
―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords (Cut Content)]]

So your evidence is a non-canonical cut scene that doesn’t happen in the actual game, am I getting that right? Explain to me why your non-canon “evidence” should be taken seriously.

[[It is made very clear that Meetra did not anticipate how powerful Nihilus was and she only realized he was a lot more powerful than she had originally thought when the party is raised into the air. All those seconds that you are talking about of walking across the bridge are irrelevant in this case.  After Meetra realizes Nihilus is way more powerful than she thought, Nihilus attempts to drain her after a few seconds. So, yes, she was only exposed to Nihilus for a few seconds. So it’s not possible to accurately tell how powerful one is in the Force in a few seconds. In addition, Nihilus was starved from his trip to Telos before any of this. Prime Nihilus would be after appeasing his hunger from draining a planet. Not this.]]

It’s actually not made clear at all, not in any canonical source. Unless you can prove that what the cut content relays is actually corroborated by a canonical source, you have no argument. My argument stands, Meetra was expecting an extremely powerful Sith from the get go (I mean why wouldn’t she be, based on everything she’d been told?) She was in his presence for ___ amount of time before the fight began, she was Force Stunned and Nihilus attempted to drain her, so he attacked her through the Force twice before the fight even began. I fail to see how this wouldn’t give her at least a rough idea of how powerful Nihilus was.

Let’s assume, for a moment, that the cut content is canonical though, all that I said is still true, she’s still in Nihilus’ presence for ___ amount of time, she’s attacked one extra time, raising her direct exposure to Nihilus’ power to at least three instances, etc. She still comes to a conclusion about how powerful he was, and in the “Revan” novel, still believes Revan was more powerful. So actually, maybe we should consider the cut content canonical, because it helps me either way, Meetra is exposed even longer and more directly to Nihilus’ power, fights him, beats him, and proclaims Revan’s supremacy regardless.

Thank you, DN, for helping me prove Revan is more powerful than Nihilus, I appreciate it.





[[If Vitiate and Revan were in closer proximity, Vitiate would not be trying to crush Revan’s will, which is what caused Vitiate to ‘land in a heap’. He would be attacking aggressively.]]





You’re missing the point, or ignoring it, Vitiate pressured Revan’s mind, and when Revan retaliated, he explicitly affected Vitiate to such an extent that he was temporarily stunned and unable to move. Or can you not actually think of a way to counter that fact? What Vitiate “would have done if...” is entirely irrelevant when we know what did happen, which is Revan causing Vitiate to land stunned.

[[He didn’t ‘keep fighting mere moments later’. Meetra and T3-M4 both had to intervene. Revan has already lost the fight here and was completely dominated by Vitiate at this point and had it not been for Meetra/T3-M4 this fight would have ended right here. The fight was clearly solidly dominated by Vitiate when he started attacking aggressively instead of trying to crush Revan’s will. It was not a close fight. It is also clearly stated that the Emperor would have won regardless. Also, Revan would have been amplified by the dark side Nexus as well.]]

It seems like you’re the one taking me out of context, frankly. I never said that Revan was able to “keep fighting mere moments later”, I said “but is ready to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later” after noting that the lightning storm did, ultimately, overpower Revan. All that occurs after Revan goes down happens in the space of of a few seconds, seemingly well under a minute:

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.

Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.

Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand.

Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

Meetra had placed herself between the Emperor and Revan, valiantly protecting her wounded friend. As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.

-The Old Republic: Revan





In the worst case scenario, both Vitiate and Revan put each other into situations where they could have/would have been able to kill each other (Revan stunning Vitiate, Vitiate’s lightning storm), so looking at it purely from that angle, they performed comparably anyway. When taking into account that, again, the duel occurred on a Dark Side nexus that would have enhanced Vitiate’s powers while hindering Revan’s, and it becomes increasingly clear that Revan actually is comparable to Vitiate. You say I’m taking the fight out of context, that I’m seeing it only as I want to see it, but there isn’t a single aspect of the fight I’ve ignored, and you’ve not presented any points that invalidate my interpretation of the duel. Conclusion? Revan is comparable to Vitiate.

[[When Kreia mentions:
“I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. “]]

This helps you how, exactly? How marginally above or below the ancient Sith Nihilus is or isn’t, is not the point. The point is that he’s only comparable to them at best, and Vitiate is implicitly and explicitly superior to them at different times in his life, and Revan is even with or greater than Vitiate at certain points in his life. Vitiate is, as a certainty, beyond Nihilus, and Revan is comparable to Vitiate, thus being likewise superior to Nihilus. Regardless of the disparity present between them, Revan is the better of the two, and that’s my point.

[[It is clear that she is uncertain how powerful Nihilus currently is. She thinks he is close to their level but is unsure of whether he is at their level, slightly below, slightly above. Her uncertainty is a clear indication that she does not know where Nihilus’s power stands relative to the ancients. Kreia also mentions:

“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)
As to my knowledge, she has not said that about any of the ancient Sith.]]

That Kreia never said that about any of the ancient Sith is irrelevant, because as I provided earlier, Chris Avellone has said that all Kreia’s statements about the ancients are accurate. So if Kreia is saying Nihilus “may” have power that rivals the ancients, and she’s saying Nihilus has power so great that it should be impossible to see the world as regular Force users do, then obviously she believes the same to be true of the ancient Sith by virtue of Nihilus maybe rivaling them.

[[Finally, you can’t argue that Revan is superior to Nihilus based on Vitiate when Vitiate himself is solidly and clearly above Revan. As for SOR Revan, it is clearly stated (as to my knowledge) that he is no match to the Emperor. As a matter of fact, novel Vitiate is arguably more powerful than SOR Revan. So I don’t get where you are going with this argument.]]

“Vitiate is solidly above Revan because I said so.” You’ve not presented anything that even remotely resembles evidence of this, you’ve not analyzed the quote and explained to me line by line why I’m wrong, your arguments have simply amounted to “nuh-uh”, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t concede the point.

You haven’t actually addressed the scaling for SoR Revan though. Marr and co. say Vitiate is above Revan, and in a sense, they’re right, but they’re also not. Marr recognizes the fact that Vitiate’s being is spread among many vessels, not all consolidated within his singular self. So a Vitiate with all his power from across the galaxy returned to him (i.e Valkorion) is absolutely more powerful than Revan, but the Emperor’s Voice which we see in vanilla SWTOR, which is proclaimed to be the most powerful Force user in history up to that point, was beaten by the Hero of Tython, who is demonstrably far inferior to SoR Revan.

So the scaling chain would look something like this, SoR Revan>>>SoR HoT>>Vanilla HoT>/~Emperor’s Voice>>Novel Vitiate/Reborn Revan>>Ancient Sith>/~Darth Nihilus.

@darthbane77

Your whole argument on the Sith assassins part has been that since Revan knew about this technique and taught it to the assassins, then he can resist/defend against such technique. This is a mere assumption on your part and is not supported by any of the points you ‘established’ about the Sith assassins. As a matter of fact, not only are you making an assumption from your head, there is evidence against your assumption of Revan being able to resist the technique simply because he taught it to the assassins. Kreia taught it to Nihilus and yet she did not know how to resist such technique despite teaching it. So, what makes you think that Revan would be able to resist it simply based on him teaching it to the assassins? Not only that, but what even makes you think that Revan would be able to defend against this technique against Nihilus who took the technique to a whole new level. Revan taught it to assassins who are nothing compared to Nihilus. Your mere “he taught it so he has to be able to resist” is hilarious at this point. To summarize your argument of the Sith assassins in one sentence, here is the desperate argument conveniently summarized by you:

"As with any Force ability, if one can use it, it stands to reason they would know how to protect themselves from the same technique"

This is a hilarious line to be honest. So now you are claiming that any Sith that uses Force lightning can protect themselves from Sidious tier Force lightning? They can both use the ability, right?

“This is a pretty weird tangent that isn’t based on anything I said. I never said Kreia learned the power from Revan, I said Revan taught the Sith assassins, which is confirmed to be true. Where Kreia learned the power is of no consequence when we know for a fact that Revan did teach it to the assassins, and Kreia’s knowledge (or lack thereof) of a specific Force ability doesn’t imply that another character can’t know something about it that she doesn’t, you attempting to insinuate otherwise is a rather sizable leap in logic that has no basis in any known source.”

It’s not a ‘weird tangent’ whatsoever. Revan taught the Sith assassins which then taught Kreia. Kreia saying that she thinks there is no defense against it is suggestive that Revan may not have known a defense against because he taught the assassins who then taught Kreia.It is a teaching pattern which leads to Revan’s knowledge about this technique and thus Kreia. This isn’t a ‘sizable leap in logic that has no basis’. Your assumptions about Revan being able to resist the technique simply because he knew it are the ones that have no basis. The above is a clear implication that Revan may have not known any defense against it.

"Kreia “leaving herself vulnerable” can also easily mean that, had she been prepared, she could have protected herself, or allayed the effects to an extent. Let’s look at my question and his response though."

Kreia mentions that she thinks there is no defense against it meaning that she herself cannot defend against it as she believes it’s not possible. This means that the ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ part must have had to refer to Kreia not risking herself to Nihilus and to keep a distance from him. Just because she would have expected to be attacked does not mean that she will somehow randomly be able to defend against it. This is even more evident from the fact that she says there is ‘no defense’ after being attacked and so at this point she is expecting Nihilus to attack her if they had interacted again. At this point she already knows Nihilus would attack her if they meet and yet still says there is no defense. This means that her ‘defense’ is staying away and not putting herself in a vulnerable position to Nihilus and not that she will be able to somehow prepare to defend/resist against it. In contrast, that is why Chris says that Revan is more tactically sound. Revan would not have placed himself in a vulnerable position like Kreia and hence why Chris says that Kreia would not have left herself vulnerable (had she expected the attack) and right after contrasts it to Revan saying he is more sound than Kreia and would not have made the mistake Kreia did. This does not state that Revan would have defended against the drain through being able to resist it. It is simply saying that Revan would have avoided placing himself in the situation that Kreia did.

So to put this into shorter to read points:

1. Kreia is not correct about there being no defense against the drain.
2. Revan would have been prepared for the attack, and “far surpassed” Kreia. The implication here, based on all surrounding context, is that Revan could have defended himself if put in Kreia’s shoes.
3. Revan far surpassed Kreia. If anyone knows how to defend against the drain, it’s him

1. I did not claim that there is no defense against it


2.Revan is more tactically sound and would have avoided placing himself in Kreia’s situation. At the end of the day, he was one of the best military strategists.


3. How would Revan ‘surpassing Kreia’ mean that he would be able to defend against Nihilus’s drain exactly? Your jump in conclusions never cease to amaze me at this point


4. You have, again, ignored my point that Kreia couldn’t resist Malachor V and was consumed by it and yet her Force connection was not devoured. All those Malachor V similarities you kept pointing to Nihilus and yet you still haven’t explained this point. 


 5. You did not explain how Revan was going to seduce light sider users to his cause if Malachor was a Force devouring planet i.e You saying Nihilus and Malachor are identical despite the fact that Malachor does not devour Force connections of people. Explain.


6. You have, again, ignored my point to provide concrete evidence of Malachor devouring Force connections. Your whole similarities to Nihilus are a complete waste of time. All those similarities you keep pointing and yet you can’t find a single concrete evidence to show Malachor devours Force connections?


7. You have, again, yet to explain to me how your whole ‘Malachor to Nihilus similarities’ or ‘Malachor is Nihilus’ is even relevant when Revan was last on Malachor BEFORE it even became a wound i.e before Malachor became a wound and thus ‘identical to Nihilus’ in your argument


8. You have yet to explain to me how Nihilus’s aura is identical to Malachor corrupting people when Malachor was already corrupting people before it even became a wound (i.e before it became identical to Nihilus in your argument). Malachor corrupts because it’s a dark side nexus not because it’s ‘identical to Nihilus’

Actually, it’s you who ignored my point, which is that the Star Forge, like Nihilus, was a threat to the very existence of the Force itself. The very fact that the Star Forge shares that similarity with Nihilus’ variant of Force Drain is indicative of the destruction of Force connections, as in order to literally destroy the Force, those connections would have to be cut, which happens to be a central theme of KotOR II, loss of connections to the Force. Unless you can provide evidence of a way to kill the Force without severing Force connections? Unless you can do so, how can you argue what they do is not the same? Hell, Kreia, who was not credited as a threat to the Force like Nihilus and the Star Forge, is seen destroying Force connections herself.

I did not ignore your point. I told you that the Star Forge is said to life drain people and not Force drain. Either way, let’s assume you are right. What makes you think that the Star Forge’s drain is even comparable to Nihilus? Take a look at the Builders:

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."-


-Rakata Computer, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic


The Builders weren’t powerful enough to harness the Forge and yet they did not get their life drained or devoured (reference to the Bastile quote) from them. The Bastila quote says that there is no one left with the power to control the Forge and those who have tried got life drained. However, in the Builder’s case, they weren’t devoured or drained. The Star Forge fueled their hatred against each other leading to a civil war between them. What does this mean? The Builders weren’t powerful enough to harness the Star Forge but they were strong enough not to get life drained and devoured by it as in the case of the people that Bastila was talking about. If even the Builders were able to not get life drained by the Star Forge, then what makes you think that Revan not getting drain by it is significant? What makes you think the Star Forge’s drain is even powerful when even the Builders were able to not get drained by it? More importantly, what makes you think it’s drain is even comparable to Nihilus’s drain who can devour planets whereas the Star Forge can’t even devour the Builders?

"Literally all of this is already addressed in my first response in this comment, so I won’t bother tearing it apart again right here."

You did not tear anything apart. All you did was kept on saying that ‘Revan taught the assassins so that must mean he can resist Nihilus’s drain’ which was hilarious as I have established above. I won’t tear this apart again over here too, don’t worry.

"The point is that they’re literal extensions of Malachor, as evidenced by the quotes I already provided, which you haven’t addressed. If Nihilus and Meetra are symptomatic of the original wound in the Force, Malachor V, then it stands to reason that Malachor V’s wound has many or all of the same abilities"

Yet again another one of your desperate similarities. I have already addressed this point over 3 times already about how you constantly just try to point similarities and jump to the conclusion that Malachor devours Force connections and you have yet to provide me concrete evidence of Malachor devouring Force connections. You have yet to address points 4,5,6,7 and 8 relating to Malachor and your flawed ‘similarity’ argument. It is becoming increasing clear that you have nothing to provide to this argument and you just keep on jumping on similarities rather than providing direct and clear evidence of Malachor devouring Force connections AND on a scale like Nihilus. I especially find your Nihilus aura similarity to Malachor attempt quite hilarious.

The context of a given quote is what’s relevant. Given you didn’t attack the quotes I provided, I assume that you don’t disagree that the Bane novel quotes I provided are all in reference to raw power, rather than mastery. Which is all I needed to prove. Drew has used “command of the Force” to reference power in the Force, which I substantiated and explained, and you haven’t debunked the “Revan” novel quote as referring to applicable power, which the context of the quote clearly is referencing, despite your initial vain efforts at claiming otherwise

Here is your Revan quote:

“The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

The ‘Revan quote’ you are referring to is not referring to raw Force power. It is says that Revan’s command of the Force was nothing Scourge had sensed and that it was impossible to not to sense Revan’s strength. Compare this to another quote that talks about the same situation. 

“Interrogating [Scourge] the Jedi had resulted in nothing but frustration and dead ends. His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions.”

Revan’s ‘strength’ in this case is referring to Revan’s will and his willpower and not his raw Force power. Both quotes are describing the same scenario of Revan’s strong will and command of the Force whilst being drugged. Not only that, as a matter of fact ‘Command of the Force’ here has to mean control/call upon the Force and not raw Force power. Why? Consider the quote below:

“His mind felt slow and dull, and he knew he’d been drugged. It was difficult to concentrate; impossible to focus his thoughts enough to use the Force.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

Clearly, being drugged makes you lose concentration and ability to focus to even call upon the Force. However, getting drugged would not reduce your raw Force power in anyway and would only reduce your ability to call upon/use that power. Relate this back to my earlier quote where it says:

 ‘His will was strong, as was his command of the Force. Even drugged to the edge of unconsciousness he was able to draw on it to help him endure the pain and the relentless barrage of questions’

Knowing that drugs would only impact your ability to call upon/use the Force, the above statement makes it clear that even when Revan is drugged, his Command of the Force was still strong enough after getting impacted by drugs that he was still able to call upon the Force to help him endure the pain. This makes it very clear that ‘Command of the Force’ here is related to being able to call upon/use the Force and not raw Force power as raw Force power is not impacted by drugs and the above quotes are talking about how the drugs have impacted Revan.


Your Bane quote:

“But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host’s physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites’ ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one’s own command of the Force.”

-Dynasty of Evil

Command of the Force is not just based on mastery. It also means control/ability to call upon/direct the Force and use it to your will. Bane feeding on the dark side(from the orbalisks) will also increase his ability to control/call upon the Force. If a dark side user is on a dark side nexus, his ability to use and control the dark side of the Force is enhanced as well as his power is increased. This is in similar contrast of Bane using the parasites to feed on the dark side. It is even specifically stated that Bane is able to call upon the dark side not only from himself, but also from the orbalisks. So his ability to call upon the dark side is enhanced, which is exactly related to his increase in command of the Force. As such, your argument does not stand as raw Force power is not the only factor that gets increased.

"The phrase “command of the Force” is not present in this excerpt, so how exactly does this prove your point?"

How in the world isn’t ‘Command of the Force’ present here exactly? The quote clearly distinguishes ‘his power grew’ and then right after says that ‘It became easier and easier to ‘command the Force’ where ‘command’ here clearly resembles control of the Force and not raw Force power. Simply because you don’t like the quote because it disproves your point doesn’t mean it’s not there. Let me make it easier for you and underline it this time and hopefully you will be able to see it.

"He was completely aware of his surroundings at all times, sensing the presence of others. Sometimes he could even get a feel of their intentions, vague impressions of their very thoughts. He was able to levitate larger objects now, and for longer periods. With each lesson his power [Distinguished from Command] grew. It became easier and easier to command the Force [Control] [ Raw Force power doesn’t not many any sense here] and bend [Use it to his will] it to his will."

"Again, “command of the Force” as a phrase is not used here. Simply citing that “command” and “Force” are used in the same sentence is not linguistically the same thing."

Actually, it is very clearly talking about being able to command the Force. I have even provided context for you with the [ ]. Here let me break it down for you. It is saying the ‘Force’ is their greatest weapon and those people who have the power command/control/direct ‘it’  where ‘it’ is a clear reference to the force. Your desperate attempts to try and play around the words because they don’t suit your arguments won’t work.

"This quote can mean either of our interpretations. “Mastery” is not specified in the quote, you’re making the assumption that it’s mastery. In “Path of Destruction”, Karpyshyn says something else similar to this in a quote I used earlier"

Funny how you are telling me that ‘Mastery’ is not specified in the quote and that I’m assuming it when you are assuming ‘raw Force power’ despite it not being specified in the quote. The quote does not mean either of our interpretations. The quote explains how the lightsaber is an ‘extension’ of a user’s command of the Force and directly relates it to ‘mental discipline’ and ‘physical mastery’. Raw force power has no role in here.

“Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style.”

-Path of Destruction

Clearly Drew is drawing ties between dueling skill and the Force, that much I won’t dispute. What I will dispute, is that it inherently means he’s referencing mastery. As I argued before, regarding the quote above, mastery of the Force won’t allow one to successfully use a lightsaber, their power in it does, it allows them to be faster, stronger, or more agile than their opponent, allows for better precognition, etc.

Mastery/Control of the force would certainly have a role in battle precognition. You can have all the raw force power you want but if you don’t have the ability to control/direct/call upon that power then you won’t be able to use it. Precognition is not just dependent on raw Force power. I don’t know where you are getting this assumption from

"Note, however, how virtually all of the greatest lightsaber duelists in the mythos are also the most applicably powerful Force users. Sidious, Yoda, Anakin Skywalker, Mace Windu, all more powerful than any and all Jedi and Sith to come before them, and all placed in Tier 9 of George Lucas and Nick Gillard’s lightsaber dueling tier lists. Luke Skywalker, arguably the single most powerful conventional/non-deity Force user in the mythos, the “greatest Jedi in the history of the galaxy”, also happens to be arguably the single greatest lightsaber duelist ever, having bested Sidious in single combat, stated to be the only living Jedi capable of beating Darth Caedus in a straight fight. Revan, whose power and skill allowed him to fight veritable armies of nexus amped Sith, Star Forge droids, and Darth Malak, the list can go on.

So my point here is, sure, the quote could mean mastery, but given the number if massively powerful Force users also seems to be nearly the same as massively skilled swordsman, and that the same individuals are both lists, sets the precedent that its power in the Force, not mastery, directly ties in to effectiveness with a lightsaber"

Yes, and virtually all of those you listed have a high mastery/control of the force. So, what is your point exactly? Luke had the highest mastery/control of the force and not just raw power. Those massively powerful Force users were powerful because of their raw power and their mastery/control of the force. Simply stating that their lightsaber effectiveness is due to them being powerful Force users does not mean that it was only due to their raw power. Mastery also has a factor in contributing to them being powerful Force users. So, no the quote is not referring to power in the Force, especially when it clearly mentions ‘mental discipline’, which is clearly not raw power. 

" Elsewhere in the novel imply that power is what's referenced.

”Bane would have been carved to ribbons had he tried to react to each move individually. Instead he simply called upon the Force, letting it flow through him and guide his hand. He gave himself over to the dark side completely, without reservation. His weapon became an extension of the Force, and he responded to the Twilek’s unstoppable attack with an impenetrable defense.

-Path of Destruction

As with before, “mastery” would make no sense in this context, how would Bane allow his mastery of the Force to flow through him? We see exactly what your quote is referencing, the lightsaber as an extension of the user’s “command of the Force”, i.e, their “power.” Another excerpt, from the same section of the novel (Bane’s fight with Kas’im) outright shows that Bane winning the duel (prior to Kas’im swapping forms to one alien to Bane) was due to his power in the Force.

The outcome was inevitable. Bane was simply too strong in the Force. Only some unexpected maneuver could save Kas’im, but they had fought too many times in the past for him to surprise Bane now.

-Path of Destruction

No, the novel does not imply raw power from the references you just gave above. The first quote in fact says that Bane “simply called upon the Force”. The fact that he ‘called upon’ the Force is an indication of mastery/control of the Force in order to call upon it and use it. Your raw Force power interpretation is the one that makes no sense in this context. How would his raw force power allow him to call upon and use the force? This is even further supported:

“It was difficult to draw upon the Force through the veil of mind-aletring chemicals in his system…”

-The Old Republic: Revan

Hopefully I don’t have to explain to you why raw Force power has no context in the above quote. Also its not ‘his mastery of the Force to flow through him’ as you said. It’s the Force itself flowing through him. Your second quote says Bane was too strong in the Force for Kas’im. How does that imply that Command of the Force means raw Force Power exactly? If it is your attempts to claim that lightsaber proficiency is solely based on raw Force Power, then I have already broken down that argument above and your efforts are in vain again.

The remainder of the quotes you posted suffer from the same issues as these ones, they don’t use “command of the Force”, they use separation of “command” and “Force” or “dark side”, but without being in the context of the phrase “command of the Force”, you have no basis for comparison, and so your entire attempt at discrediting my argument has been pointless. The baseline conclusion now remains that every quote Drew uses where “command of the Force” is referenced, it’s referring to applicable power, not mastery.

All of the quotes I provided have very clearly shown the difference between commanding the Force and raw Force power. Your vain attempts to desperately try and play around with the words such as not having “the” part or not having the word “of” are genuinely hilarious and present a mockery of an argument.

"So your evidence is a non-canonical cut scene that doesn’t happen in the actual game, am I getting that right? Explain to me why your non-canon “evidence” should be taken seriously"

The scene is cut because of the time pressure that the developers of KOTOR 2 were subjected to and not because the developers thought the material did not portray the characters they wanted. The cut scene is therefore an accurate portrayal of the characters we are discussing and is only non-canon because of real life time pressure and not because of an in-universe reason. Either way, the scene is exactly like the canonical with the only difference is that Nihilus stuns the party in the canonical while raises the party in the air in the cut content. The ‘player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed’ part is a statement that would apply in either case and so whether Nihilus stunned the party or lifted them into the air would not make a difference. Thus, the part applies whether you look at the canonical or cut content scene. And who are you exactly to try and attack me for the cut content when you yourself used a cut content scene earlier? Remember the Kreia getting betrayed youtube video you provided earlier on? It seems clear to me that if something benefits you then you take it and if it doesn’t then you disregard it because you don’t like it. Doesn’t work that way.

"It’s actually not made clear at all, not in any canonical source. Unless you can prove that what the cut content relays is actually corroborated by a canonical source, you have no argument. My argument stands, Meetra was expecting an extremely powerful Sith from the get go (I mean why wouldn’t she be, based on everything she’d been told?) She was in his presence for ___ amount of time before the fight began, she was Force Stunned and Nihilus attempted to drain her, so he attacked her through the Force twice before the fight even began. I fail to see how this wouldn’t give her at least a rough idea of how powerful Nihilus was."

Actually, it is made very clear that Meetra onfly realized he was a lot more powerful than she had originally thought when the party is raised into the air/ stunned. And yes the statement still applies whether you look at the cut content scene or the original scene as I have mentioned above. And how would being attacked through the ‘Force twice’ give Meetra an accurate portrayal of Nihilus’s power exactly? Are you genuinely trying to argue that getting exposed to a few seconds to someone would give you an accurate assessment of their power? Even masters have underestimated their own apprentices in the past and they have trained them and known them for years.

"Let’s assume, for a moment, that the cut content is canonical though, all that I said is still true, she’s still in Nihilus’ presence for ___ amount of time, she’s attacked one extra time, raising her direct exposure to Nihilus’ power to at least three instances, etc. She still comes to a conclusion about how powerful he was, and in the “Revan” novel, still believes Revan was more powerful. So actually, maybe we should consider the cut content canonical, because it helps me either way, Meetra is exposed even longer and more directly to Nihilus’ power, fights him, beats him, and proclaims Revan’s supremacy regardless"

Except that you completed ignored the part where Meetra did not anticipate Nihilus’s power (for your own convenience as usual) AND Meetra is not attacked ‘one extra time’ in the scene as you claim. She is attacked the same number of times in both.

"Thank you, DN, for helping me prove Revan is more powerful than Nihilus, I appreciate it."

Another one of your mockery statements. Just like most of your arguments.

"You’re missing the point, or ignoring it, Vitiate pressured Revan’s mind, and when Revan retaliated, he explicitly affected Vitiate to such an extent that he was temporarily stunned and unable to move. Or can you not actually think of a way to counter that fact? What Vitiate “would have done if...” is entirely irrelevant when we know what did happen, which is Revan causing Vitiate to land stunned"

Except the only reason Vitiate landed stunned was because he was focused on dominating Revan’s mind and was unprepared.

“Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.”

Of course this makes a big difference in a fight. Being prepared makes a huge difference to not being prepared. What is the logic in your point exactly? It’s also funny how you are telling me that what would have happened is irrelevant when we know what did happen. Let me quote you again, shall I ?:

“In short, Vitiate falls stunned, unable to move, were Revan in closer proximity to Vitiate, this would have been the end of the duel in most other cases.”

You also contradict yourself? Yikes.

"It seems like you’re the one taking me out of context, frankly. I never said that Revan was able to “keep fighting mere moments later”, I said “but is ready to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later” after noting that the lightning storm did, ultimately, overpower Revan. All that occurs after Revan goes down happens in the space of of a few seconds, seemingly well under a minute:”

You literally just said that Revan is able to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later. I don’t even know what to say to you anymore. Maybe this is another one of your ‘word play’ attempts to try and save face because you were exposed by two users on this point.

"In the worst case scenario, both Vitiate and Revan put each other into situations where they could have/would have been able to kill each other (Revan stunning Vitiate, Vitiate’s lightning storm), so looking at it purely from that angle, they performed comparably anyway. When taking into account that, again, the duel occurred on a Dark Side nexus that would have enhanced Vitiate’s powers while hindering Revan’s, and it becomes increasingly clear that Revan actually is comparable to Vitiate. You say I’m taking the fight out of context, that I’m seeing it only as I want to see it, but there isn’t a single aspect of the fight I’ve ignored, and you’ve not presented any points that invalidate my interpretation of the duel. Conclusion? Revan is comparable to Vitiate."

Except your contrast between the two is completely out of place. Revan pushing Vitiate to the floor is not at all comparable to Revan getting destroyed by Vitiate’s lightning storm. Revan needed to get saved twice while Vitiate was not saved by anyone and still dominated Revan on his own. Revan pushing Vitiate to the ground did not give Revan a chance to kill Vitiate as you claim but Vitiate’s lightning storm required Revan to be saved twice. Two opportunities for Vitiate and none for Revan. So no, there were no situations where Revan would have been able to kill Vitiate. Simply pushing him to the floor is not enough. And the only reason Revan was able to ‘stun’ Vitiate as you claim is simply because Vitiate was not prepared as has been shown and canonically stated earlier above. Once Vitiate was prepared to fight (instead of focusing on dominating Revan’s mind) he dominated Revan. Revan put up a good fight but there is a clear victor and superior here. Revan would have also been enhanced by the Dark Side nexus. He uses both light and dark side of the force at this point. This is even evident from his ‘pure form’ attack that hit Vitiate. Only one of his attacks was a Force attack anyway, and it was a pure one.

"This helps you how, exactly? How marginally above or below the ancient Sith Nihilus is or isn’t, is not the point. The point is that he’s only comparable to them at best, and Vitiate is implicitly and explicitly superior to them at different times in his life, and Revan is even with or greater than Vitiate at certain points in his life. Vitiate is, as a certainty, beyond Nihilus, and Revan is comparable to Vitiate, thus being likewise superior to Nihilus. Regardless of the disparity present between them, Revan is the better of the two, and that’s my point."

Except Revan is not even or greater than Vitiate. He is a clear inferior as has been established above despite your out of context vain efforts.

"Vitiate is solidly above Revan because I said so.” You’ve not presented anything that even remotely resembles evidence of this, you’ve not analyzed the quote and explained to me line by line why I’m wrong, your arguments have simply amounted to “nuh-uh”, so you’ll forgive me if I don’t concede the point."

Except I have explained to you twice now why Revan is a clear inferior to Vitiate. Your whole Vitiate-Revan argument is that Revan is comparable to Vitiate because Vitiate landed on a floor. Vitiate barbequed Revan and he had to be saved twice while Vitiate not even once.

"You haven’t actually addressed the scaling for SoR Revan though. Marr and co. say Vitiate is above Revan, and in a sense, they’re right, but they’re also not. Marr recognizes the fact that Vitiate’s being is spread among many vessels, not all consolidated within his singular self. So a Vitiate with all his power from across the galaxy returned to him (i.e Valkorion) is absolutely more powerful than Revan, but the Emperor’s Voice which we see in vanilla SWTOR, which is proclaimed to be the most powerful Force user in history up to that point, was beaten by the Hero of Tython, who is demonstrably far inferior to SoR Revan.

So the scaling chain would look something like this, SoR Revan>>>SoR HoT>>Vanilla HoT>/~Emperor’s Voice>>Novel Vitiate/Reborn Revan>>Ancient Sith>/~Darth Nihilus"

I haven’t addressed SOR Revan because this derails the original aim of the thread, which was to discuss the beliefs I said above and not argue who is more powerful Nihilus or Revan. As a matter of fact, I shouldn’t have addressed the Reborn Revan/Vitiate discussion in the first place. The main goal was to address whether Revan would resist Nihilus’s drain and whether Revan is canonically stated to be superior to Nihilus. Caution that I am saying canonically stated. This does not mean who I or you think is more powerful and is based on clear definitive statements. The Vitiate/Revan discussion we had are arguments and what we think and not canonical statements. As such, I ask you to refrain from mentioning the Vitiate/Revan discussion on this thread and for both of us to stick to the 2 points I wanted to discuss in the thread. We can have that discussion another time and on a separate thread.

Sorry for the delay in responding, I know it's probably annoying of me to take this long, I'll try to have my response out in the next couple of days.

@darthbane77

It's all good take your time. There is no pressure or anything.


It's probably only the two of us who are active in this discussion anyways lol.

Do you also mind posting the whole discussion with Chris? I forgot to mention that earlier.


By the way, who do you think is more powerful Revan Reborn or SOR Revan?

@Darth Nihilus: SOR Revan is far more powerful than Revan Reborn. BTW, good blogs.

Darth Nihilus wrote:@darthbane77

It's all good take your time. There is no pressure or anything.


It's probably only the two of us who are active in this discussion anyways lol.

Do you also mind posting the whole discussion with Chris? I forgot to mention that earlier.


By the way, who do you think is more powerful Revan Reborn or SOR Revan?

Yeah, I'll post the whole thing sometime soon.

Also think SoR Revan is far superior to Reborn Revan.

Jaggarath wrote:@Darth Nihilus: SOR Revan is far more powerful than Revan Reborn. BTW, good blogs.

@Jaggarath

Thanks mate. Appreciate it .


One thing I didn't really understand about Revan is how come Foundry Revan is much weaker than SOR Revan? If Foundry Revan is both light and dark side combined, then he should be more powerful than SOR Revan who is mainly adopting the dark side.

It seems clear that SOR Revan is more powerful because he was significantly amped by the dark side nexus of Yavin IV and so all of SOR Revan's showings are under a huge dark side amp. On the other hand, Foundry Revan was not amped and so was much weaker than the amped SOR Revan. Basically, SOR Revan is not as powerful under normal conditions and he was significantly amped.

Another reason I thought about is that Foundry Revan is Revan himself and a human. So all those 300 years of torture have left him in a weakened state. On the other hand, SOR Revan isn't really a human and more of an entity of the dark side of Revan for his hatred for the Emperor. And since he is an entity and not a human, he doesn't have all those human weaknesses of torture that left Foundry Revan in a weakened state.

@Darth Nihilus: Foundry Revan is weakened by three centuries of torture and drain and having his mind already split into two consciousness. SOR Revan doesn't have such handicaps; instead, he's a "pure" and "unburdened" embodiment of Revan's "hatred," "strength," and "focus" that experienced and overcame death itself and spent four years recovering and growing stronger from the Foundry defeat and actualizing his gains from the mental war struggle. Also, note that the Yavin IV nexus is irrelevant to all of SOR Revan's best feats and scaling. With his tanking of the Machine Core backlash and destruction, the nexus is what is actively working against Revan, and with his performance against the Forgotten Terrace strike team, his opponents are likewise greatly empowered by the nexus and/or Satele Shan's battle meditation.

@Jaggarath

The Strike team consisted (as to my knowledge) of:

-Darth Marr

-Satele Shan

-Lana Beniko

-Shae Vizla

-Theron Shan

-Hero of Tython

- A wookie

Of the above, only 4 are force sensitives and would have been impacted by the nexus. Darth Marr and Lana Beniko are the only people from the team that would have been amped by the dark side nexus. Satele Shan and Hot would have both been severely weakened and this would also include a much weaker battle meditation from Satele Shan.

@Darth Nihilus Satele's battle meditation gave the strike team, including the non-Force sensitives, "greatly increased" powers and abilities, allowed them to enter into a state of "battle clarity," and constantly poured healing energies into them. In gameplay, it is the greatest amp ever offered, and she doubles everyone's stats--meaning the combination of Marr's normal powers and his Yavin IV amp is equal to the amp then provided by Satele's battle meditation. I'm not saying you have to take the stats hyper-literally, just that with the absence of any other statement or implication over which amp is stronger, S-Continuity plainly triumphs and holds that the Yavin IV amp is a small fraction compared to the battle meditation amp. That makes sense, too. Just look at what a low-level battle meditation practitioner like Worrow can do to the Jedi strike team fighting Bane and Zannah. The text repeatedly stresses they are exorbitantly more powerful than before. Yet Satele was noted to have the same gift that Bastila did, who was perhaps the greatest Jedi battle meditation practitioner ever. So, Revan was not more empowered than the strike team. Not even close.

Bastila Shan is absolutely not the greatest Battle Meditation practitioner in the mythos. Defending the Endar Spire with her BM “exhausted” her powers, whereas it took 5 months of continuous BM with minimal rest as well as a galaxy-wide (which in and of itself is the greatest BM feat to my knowledge, only unsuccessful because it was actively being challenged by the dark side) attempt with the power to exhaust Oppo Rancisis.

@CuckedCurry: And yet prime Bastila's battle meditation allowed the remnant Republic fleet to defeat an "almost infinite" armada of Leviathan-class Star Destroyers.

https://youtu.be/DD9n_Lh4L2E?t=103 -> There's easily hundreds of Leviathans here, and that's even before the production ramped up to 300%.

Bastila's lacking mastery may exhaust her quicker, but the potency of her influence appears nigh-unrivaled.

bastila best girl tbh

So just being of a bloodline means you inherit the hype and scaling of your ancestor? Sounds like BULLSHIT there insect66

I don't want to interfere here, but I've still yet to see any proof or evidence that a light sided being like Satele can use BM on a potent dark side nexus to completely or even largely mitigate the most potent known dark side nexus in the galaxy at the time while being hindered herself.

Jaggarath wrote:@Darth Nihilus Satele's battle meditation gave the strike team, including the non-Force sensitives, "greatly increased" powers and abilities, allowed them to enter into a state of "battle clarity," and constantly poured healing energies into them. In gameplay, it is the greatest amp ever offered, and she doubles everyone's stats--meaning the combination of Marr's normal powers and his Yavin IV amp is equal to the amp then provided by Satele's battle meditation. I'm not saying you have to take the stats hyper-literally, just that with the absence of any other statement or implication over which amp is stronger, S-Continuity plainly triumphs and holds that the Yavin IV amp is a small fraction compared to the battle meditation amp. That makes sense, too. Just look at what a low-level battle meditation practitioner like Worrow can do to the Jedi strike team fighting Bane and Zannah. The text repeatedly stresses they are exorbitantly more powerful than before. Yet Satele was noted to have the same gift that Bastila did, who was perhaps the greatest Jedi battle meditation practitioner ever. So, Revan was not more empowered than the strike team. Not even close.

That is just game mechanics and cannot be taken to mean that Satele's BM is more potent than one of the most potent dark side nexuses. Not only that, but in order for your proposal to even be considered you have to show and prove that the game mechanics take into account the dark side nexus potency. In other words, you have to show me that the light sided users (Hot and Satele) have reduced stats at Yavin IV compared to elsewhere and have reduced stats (compared to normal conditions) at the Revan fight before including/doubling of the amp. I can bet that the game mechanics don't take that into account and as such your proposal is invalid.

In addition to that, your proposal does not make much sense. Think of it this way. Let's give Darth Marr a power of 20 without DS amp and a power of 30 with DS amp. According to your proposal, Darth Marr would have a power of 60 with DS amp after Satele's BM whilst a power of 40 without DS amp after Satele's BM. So Satele's BM was 10 units more powerful/impactful when Marr was amped compared to not amped. This means that how impactful/powerful Satele's BM is dependent on the dark side nexus amp as it was 10 units (for example) higher/more powerful than without the amp. A similar case can be made to show that Satele's BM is less powerful/impactful on a Force user negatively impacted by the dark side nexus. However, this dependence does not make sense. Satele's BM is still the same regardless if her allies are amped or not. It would not be more powerful the more powerful her allies are. It seems further clear that the doubling is just game mechanics.
Even if you wanted to argue that her BM would be more powerful her ally is, then her BM would also be less powerful the less powerful her ally is.

I also highly doubt that her BM (While she is hindered) is more impactful than one of the most potent dark side nexuses. You can't even use Bastila in this case. Bastila was not in combat during the Star Forge and devoted all her energy, focus and concentration to use her BM for the republic. Satele is in an intense fight and would not be nearly as focused and concentrated as in Bastila's case. And this is assuming Satele's BM is as powerful as Bastila.

I am of the view that Satele Shan was HEAVILY involved in the fight in different capacities. She used Battle Meditation to bolster fighting capabilities of her allies at some point, but she also shielded herself and her allies from the unnatural Revan's powers and attacks at some point. Taking official cut-scene into consideration, Satele also exchanged blows with the unnatural Revan at some point (alone).

Therefore, depending upon how the fight progressed, it looks like Satele switched her tactics and choices to counter alternating moves of unnatural Revan and her BM might not be a CONSTANT although I am not sure (she might have multi-tasked to a degree).

Nevertheless, remarkable display of power and talents from Satele in this fight given the odds.

@Darth Nihilus:

I think you're missing the point.

The fact the game does not debuff the Hero or Satele during the fight is the point. When assessing the effects of both nexuses, we need to look at the available continuity evidence. S-Continuity's contrast between (1) a stated and visually shown buff that gives all characters a 200% increase in all stats and (2) an unstated and unshown debuff through gameplay plainly illustrates that the first amp is far more powerful than the second one. And, yes, "that is just game mechanics"--which are, again, S-Continuity per Star Wars Insider 101 and "designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created" and "can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another" per Leland Chee. So, the stats are canon (which means it's usable as evidence), it's made to match the lore under the purposes of the game (which means the game intentionally greatly prioritizes the battle meditation amp over the Yavin IV nexus), and it's well-suited for comparisons between characters (which means you can use the gameplay to assess how Revan fares versus the strike team).

Also, there is long precedent in the lore for legendary battle meditation displays to be on mega dark side nexuses. Arca Jeth uses battle meditation to turn the tide in the battle of Onderon. Bastila Shan uses battle meditation in the heart of the Star Forge--easily one of the most powerful dark side nexuses ever--to turn the tide of the battle of Lehon despite absurd odds. Worror Dowmat, a second-rate practitioner, uses battle meditation to greatly empower his strike team on Tython. So, actually, do you even have an example of battle meditation being greatly diminished by passive dark side energies? That seems like a good place to start your argument.

Besides, and perhaps most importantly, Satele's battle meditation is empowering the Force abilities of Darth Marr and the Hero of Tython equally and simultaneously. Ergo, clearly Satele must not be using light side energies for this feat, or else Marr obviously would not be empowered. Satele's battle meditation here, instead, must be of neutral alignment or raw Force substance. Given that’s necessarily the case, I don’t see a way or reason to even entertain the notion her effects were diminished.

I'm sorry, but you don't really have a case here. You're just pointing out the maybe-what if-possibility that the Yavin IV nexus had greater effects than the battle meditation amp. This is directly rejected by S-Continuity, further put into question by precedent, and ultimately baseless due to the nature of Satele's battle meditation.

PS: Satele is not both fighting and using battle meditation against Revan. She's just using battle meditation. Her focus is not split.

The Dark Apprentice wrote:So just being of a bloodline means you inherit the hype and scaling of your ancestor? Sounds like BULLSHIT there insect66

I never made this contention.

Jaggarath wrote:@Darth Nihilus:

I think you're missing the point.

The fact the game does not debuff the Hero or Satele during the fight is the point. When assessing the effects of both nexuses, we need to look at the available continuity evidence. S-Continuity's contrast between (1) a stated and visually shown buff that gives all characters a 200% increase in all stats and (2) an unstated and unshown debuff through gameplay plainly illustrates that the first amp is far more powerful than the second one. And, yes, "that is just game mechanics"--which are, again, S-Continuity per Star Wars Insider 101 and "designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created" and "can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another" per Leland Chee. So, the stats are canon (which means it's usable as evidence), it's made to match the lore under the purposes of the game (which means the game intentionally greatly prioritizes the battle meditation amp over the Yavin IV nexus), and it's well-suited for comparisons between characters (which means you can use the gameplay to assess how Revan fares versus the strike team).

Also, there is long precedent in the lore for legendary battle meditation displays to be on mega dark side nexuses. Arca Jeth uses battle meditation to turn the tide in the battle of Onderon. Bastila Shan uses battle meditation in the heart of the Star Forge--easily one of the most powerful dark side nexuses ever--to turn the tide of the battle of Lehon despite absurd odds. Worror Dowmat, a second-rate practitioner, uses battle meditation to greatly empower his strike team on Tython. So, actually, do you even have an example of battle meditation being greatly diminished by passive dark side energies? That seems like a good place to start your argument.

Besides, and perhaps most importantly, Satele's battle meditation is empowering the Force abilities of Darth Marr and the Hero of Tython equally and simultaneously. Ergo, clearly Satele must not be using light side energies for this feat, or else Marr obviously would not be empowered. Satele's battle meditation here, instead, must be of neutral alignment or raw Force substance. Given that’s necessarily the case, I don’t see a way or reason to even entertain the notion her effects were diminished.

I'm sorry, but you don't really have a case here. You're just pointing out the maybe-what if-possibility that the Yavin IV nexus had greater effects than the battle meditation amp. This is directly rejected by S-Continuity, further put into question by precedent, and ultimately baseless due to the nature of Satele's battle meditation.

PS: Satele is not both fighting and using battle meditation against Revan. She's just using battle meditation. Her focus is not split.

The Dark Apprentice wrote:So just being of a bloodline means you inherit the hype and scaling of your ancestor? Sounds like BULLSHIT there insect66

I never made this contention.

@Jaggarath

The question I am trying to get into is that are these 'character stats' taking into account the impact of the dark side nexus of Yavin IV? And I am talking about this before the Revan fight and Satele using her BM. When the characters are in Yavin IV, are their stats impacted or are they unchanged relative to another planet/place? If the stats are unchanged, then the game is not taking into account the impact of the dark side nexus into account with respect to the character stats and ,as such, Satele's BM is not shown to be more impactful because the dark side nexus is not taken into account with those stats. If the character stats are unchanged (before the Revan fight/Satele's BM) then it's like saying there is no dark side nexus although we know that's not true. So this whole thing goes back to those stats/numbers. If they are changed when you are on Yavin IV (prior to Satele's BM) then you would be right to assume that Satele's BM is more impactful. However, if those numbers are unchanged, then you can't conclude that Satele's BM is more impactful as the dark side nexus impact is not taken into account even when Satele is not using her BM. I am not saying you are right or wrong. I essentially want to know if those stats take into account the DS nexus (and prior to Satele's BM).