Revan vs Darth Nihilus – Revisited

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WARNING: Hardcore Revan fans might get personally offended by this thread. You have been warned.
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I am probably going to get heated for this thread but should be fun anyways. On topic, I have created this thread to see people’s placement of this matchup and to discuss some common beliefs that I have seen going around. This thread is not made to determine a winner but rather to discuss those beliefs.

Belief 1: Revan will resist Nihilus’s drain

As I am aware, this belief comes from Revan resisting the Starforge and not being consumed by Malachor V. Let’s start with Malachor V. Firstly, a quote describing what happened to Revan is in place:

The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on (and not be consumed by) the power of the dark side.

-Star Wars Chronicles of the Old Republic


Revan being able to feed on the power of the dark side of Malachor instead of letting it consume him, which he was barely able to achieve, has got nothing to do with him being able to resist Nihilus’s drain. How do we know? The evidence comes from Kreia’s showings. Consider:

Jedi Master Kreia, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there.

- Chronicles of the Old Republic

Unlike Revan who ‘resisted’ Malachor V by not being consumed by the power, it is clearly stated that Kreia was completely consumed by that dark side (which Revan resisted) and thus means that Kreia failed in resisting. Despite this, we don’t see Kreia’s Force connection being devoured or Kreia’s life energies being drained upon or anything even remotely similar to what Nihilus’s Force drain does. We simply see Kreia being corrupted to the dark side. How would Nihilus’s force drain that devours Force connections be similar to Malachor V’s ‘attack’? We have seen what failing to resist to Malachor does and we have seen what failing to resist Nihilus’s Force drain attack does. Failing to resist to Nihilus leads to death and failing to resist Malachor corrupts to the dark side, as evidenced by Kreia. This is even further supported by when Revan attempts to use Malachor to seduce light side Jedi to the dark side. Consider:

Unbeknownst to the Jedi Order, Darth Revan has discovered numerous Sith artifacts and holocrons, all stored in great tomb-like cities buried beneath Malachor V's surface. As Revan plundered these tombs and relics, he fell deeper into the Dark Side. He learned of the location and the true nature of Korriban, he learned of the location of other Sith artifacts, and he learned how those strong in the light side of the Force could be seduced and made to see the strength inherent in the Sith teachings.

Revan knew he had discovered more than a staging area for the Mandalorian War - he had discovered an ancient, planet-sized Sith storehouse of knowledge. He had discovered a world that held one purpose - to teach and train others in the ways of the Sith. He had discovered a weapon that he could use against the Mandalorians, and a weapon by which he could convert more Jedi to his cause.

-Star Wars Chronicles of the Old Republic


"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface - drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."

- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


If Malachor would devour Force connections of people who are not able to resist it, then how would Revan use that ‘weapon’/planet to seduce others to his cause? In fact, how did the Mandalorians even survive this if Malachor was a Force draining planet? It is clear then that Malachor V is simply a dark side nexus which corrupts users to the dark side, which also gets fueled by death/war. It does not devour people’s Force connections. If it did then how did Kreia not die despite failing to resist Malachor? How were the Mandalorians even able to survive? How was Revan going to seduce the Jedi to his cause? Thus, it is clear that Malachor is nothing like Nihilus’s Force drain and ,therefore ,Revan being able to resist Malachor has absolutely nothing to do with being able to resist Nihilus’s Force drain. I believe that Revan was already immersed in the dark side before going to Malachor V anyways so I don’t get what he is ‘resisting’.


Next is the Star Forge. To keep things short, the Star Forge does not devour people’s Force connections and is not relevant to Nihilus’s Force Drain. Consider:


"There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power."

―Bastila Shan (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic 2: The Sith Lords
 

"In your terminology, the Star Forge is a tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself. The Builders thought they were strong enough to control this effect, but they were wrong. They became victims of their own creation, and eventually their hatred turned them against each other. Civil war destroyed the Infinite Empire - a lesson to remember. Only one who is immensely strong in mind can harness the power of the Star Forge without suffering a similar fate."-

-Rakata Computer, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic


"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us!

-Darth Malak, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic

Again, Revan being able to harness the Star Forge and avoid suffering a similar fate to the Builders has got nothing to do with avoiding Force connections being devoured. It simply means that one has to be powerful to avoid being dominated by the Star Forge. The Star Forge does not devour a user’s Force connections. It feeds on the dark side within people and turns them against each other as evidenced by the Builders. The Star Forge has life drained users that have tried to control it (but weren’t powerful enough to do so). This, however, is not the same as Nihilus’s Force Drain which feeds on Force connections and not life energies. The Star Forge life drain is thus different than Nihilus’s Force drain. Therefore, Revan being able to control the Forge without being life drained, due to his power, will not be relevant when resisting Nihilus’s type of drain; they are irrelevant.


Belief 2: Revan is canonically superior to Nihilus 

This comes from the following:

She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him: Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.


-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

Before we start fighting about what ‘Command of the Force’ meant, let’s assume it meant raw Force power and let me enlighten you on a different perspective. Meetra knew Revan very well as she fought with him for years during the Mandalorian wars whilst she only knew Nihilus for seconds and when he was severely weakened twice.  This means she is not an accurate source to depict Nihilus’s true power relative to Revan as she has known one for years while the other for a few seconds in a severely weakened state.

Secondly, the reality of the quote is that it uses ‘Command of the Force’ which does not always translate to raw Force power. Command translates to knowledge/mastery/grip/control and not raw Power (look the word up if you need to).Whilst I am aware that some writers might have used that phrase to mean raw Force power, the reality of the situation is that its not definitive what the phrase was meant to portray.  It could have been used by the writer to mean power or it could have been used to mean mastery/knowledge. Since we cannot definitively always know the phrase’s purpose, we cannot always assume it’s meant to portray raw Force power and as such we have to go back and look at the evidence at hand. The quote was made before Revan was freed and as such was talking about Mandalorian wars Revan (as this was the last time Meetra saw him). MW Revan feats are vastly inferior to Nihilus (won’t go into detail to avoid making this thread too long but would gladly go into it if need be). As such, based on the evidence at hand, it is clear that the quote was simply referring to mastery/control/knowledge and not Force power as Nihilus is vastly more powerful than MW Revan based on the evidence we have. As such, Revan was not stated to be canonically superior to Nihilus whatsoever, despite the quote not even being an accurate portrayal of Nihilus’s power anyways as I discussed earlier.

 
Finally, the last point I want to make (I will keep it short) is one that I have rarely ever seen people mention when it comes to Nihilus. Nihilus becomes stronger the more powerful his opponent is in the Force. Consider the following:

These Sith we face... they have learned how to do this. It is a technique that has been lost for some time, not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other Force Sensitives - and at the highest pinnacle of power, use it to consume anything that lives. They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it. That is why they are drawn to Jedi, why it is easy for them to find where they gather - because it is like the smell of blood to them. And they can draw upon the Jedi's own strength to kill them."

-Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords


"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."

-Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

 
If you made it till here, I apologize for making this long. I tried to make it as short as possible believe it or not. Anyways, thanks for reading. Any thoughts or inputs are very welcome as well.

WARNING: Hardcore Revan fans might get personally offended by this thread. You have been warned.

I hate you.

Darth Nihilus wrote:WARNING: Hardcore Revan fans might get personally offended by this thread. You have been warned.

I love you

This fits better in the blog section, so I've moved it.

On topic, the last bit is exactly what I was referring to with regards to Nihilus's power level being nebulous in the tournament thread. If he gets stronger the more powerful his opponent is, how can we know the extent of that amp? Is there any way to actually quantify how strong he'd be against certain adversaries?

Azronger wrote:This fits better in the blog section, so I've moved it.

On topic, the last bit is exactly what I was referring to with regards to Nihilus's power level being nebulous in the tournament thread. If he gets stronger the more powerful his opponent is, how can we know the extent of that amp? Is there any way to actually quantify how strong he'd be against certain adversaries?

thank u for the nihilus wank here tho. if he were to fight himself, then we may actually get something like nihilus > nihilus > nihilus > nihilus > etc etc etc

Interresting blog... I just want to here what @Jaggarath have to say on this.

Revan WILL Resist Nihilus’ Drain:



The Sith Assassins and Teachings of Malachor V:



The Sith Assassins in KotOR II, the ones who boast a lesser version of Nihilus’ drain, grow stronger depending on how powerful their opponent is, and can track Force sensitives via their “hunger”, were a sect of assassins Kreia alludes to have been formed and trained by Darth Revan.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."


Source: Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords



"So Revan trained elite Sith units into assassination squads, whose duty was to go out and capture enemy Jedi. I was in one of the special units trained to do this. Revan had plans for all Jedi. I think it was important that the Jedi see her side of things, the Sith teachings. Revan wanted to break them. And then have them join him."

Source: Atton Rand, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


The interesting thing is that Kreia describes Nihilus’ drain in the exact same way she describes these techniques the Jedi couldn’t defend from.



https://youtu.be/ISQg6yzWJ2s?t=55


Which we know explicitly is how Kreia was stripped of her connection to the Force in the first place.



"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."


―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


We also know Traya learned extensively from the libraries of knowledge on Malchor V, conveniently being the same place Nihilus learned his Drain technique, and where Traya encounters the aforementioned Sith assassins “left by Darth Revan.”



Within its Trayus Academy, she encounters assassins left by Darth Revan, but instead of attacking, they present her with Sith hermetica. "The truth of the cosmos", these writings intimated, "are not intended for the sane." Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pureblood descendants of the Sith people.


Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


What we know for a fact then, is that Revan taught the assassins how to use the Drain technique they use, and we know that technique is identical to Nihilus’ in all but scope/scale. Revan knows the technique Nihilus uses, and Kreia’s opinion that the technique has no defense against it is backed by nothing, it’s just her opinion. As with any Force ability, if one can use it, it stands to reason they would know how to protect themselves from the same technique. Chris Avellone even corroborated this in a conversation I had with him.






Malachor V:


"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface - drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."


- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


"It is ancient, a relic that survived the destruction of Malachor. It was always here, far before the Mandalorian Wars. It draws death and hate to it, channels it. Atrocities feed its power, and with its power, it creates hunger. Many Jedi have been consumed by it."

-Darth Sion


Malachor V explicitly “feeds on death”, which Kreia likewise states that Nihilus’ drain does.



"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."


Kreia rarely, if ever, discusses Force Drain in the game outside the context of Darth Nihilus, so the assumption can be made safely that she’s referring to him.

Nihilus also bears other similarities to Malachor V’s effect, he’s credited as having a “sundering aura”, which corrupts those near him and makes them bend to his will.

"Sundered by Nihilus's aura, young Visas can see only death in the Force. Accepting Nihilus' unspoken invitation, she pledges herself to the Dark Lord"


―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide



"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."


―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith


So the wound in Malachor V feeds on death, the wound in Nihilus feeds on death. Nihilus’ presence is corrupting to people, Malachor V is corrupting to people. One of the overarching points of the game is that the wounds in Nihilus and Meetra are “echoes” of the wound created on Malachor V. “Echo” translating to “a repetition or imitation of another”, or “repeat, imitate”, or “to be reminiscent of.” Everything Nihilus and Meetra are, everything they do, is a reflection of Malachor V



"You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi."

-KotOR II


A line of dialogue (unsure of who says it, but it’s in the dialogue files, I presume it’s Kreia or one of the Jedi Council) enforces that Meetra carries that echo.


“And that is why Malachor echoes within you still.”

-KotOR II, tlk line 111476.



The Star Forge:

An expanded version of a quote you used in your own argument (seems you have a bad habit of using quotes that can be easily turned against you) draws an indirect comparison between the semi-sentien Rakata superweapon and the wound in the Force within Malachor V. That comparison being that both instances are a threat to the existence of the Force itself.

There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith, the end of the Force.
 
Source: Bastila Shan, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


It’s also interesting that just prior to this declaration, Bastila is speaking on how the Star Forge drains the life from those who try to use it, Revan is an exception to this presumed rule, the other exception being Darth Malak.

So the Star Forge feeds on people and its continued use by the Sith would have resulted in the death of the Force. Sounds ominously like a certain planet we’ve been discussing, no?
-----
Our conclusions on this front are that:

1: Revan knows how to use this technique, which gives credence to the idea he can defend against it. He also taught it to others, and it’s unreasonable to posit that a Sith Lord as intelligent, tactically sound, and careful as Darth Revan, would teach a technique to followers that he himself would be unable to protect himself against.

2: Malachor V and Nihilus drain both “feed on death”, and corrupt those in its proximity that cannot defend themselves against the aura, making Nihilus, his drain, and Malachor V essentially identical.

3: Nihilus and Meetra Surik are both either explicitly or implicitly stated to be “echoes” of the wound in the Force which was created in Malachor V. Being “echoes” means they’re reflections, making them similar or identical to the source.

4: Revan has resisted the dominating and draining effects of the Star Forge, which has the distinct quality of being a threat to the existence of the Force, like Malachor, Nihilus, and Meetra, all of which are wounds in the Force. *hint, hint*

If there is a single person in the mythos that can defend themself against Nihilus’ drain, Revan is undoubtedly that person.


Revan IS Canonically Superior to Nihilus:


Meetra’s Opinion:


Let’s address the following quote first, and discuss why it refers to raw power, not mastery.

She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him: Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.


-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan


At a glance, “command of the Force” could be interpreted as meaning mastery, and your or anyone else could be forgiven for making that mistake, but precedent within both the same novel and in other novels written by Drew Karpyshyn does not support that idea.

“The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

In the above quote, Scourge senses Revan’s command of and connection to the Force, and then makes a note on sensing Revan’s strength. Obviously “connection” to the Force is not raw applicable power, Qui-Gon Jinn sensed Anakin’s impossibly powerful connection to the Force, but clearly nine year old slave boy Skywalker wasn’t about to go toe to toe with the Ones or challenge Yoda and Darth Sidious to a fight. The quote goes on to directly note Scourge is sensing Revan’s “strength” in direct relation to the previously stated “command of” and “connection to” the Force. “Mastery” denotes a high level of knowledge or skill in, neither of which are things that can be sensed, at least to my knowledge. So which makes more sense “Scourge sensed Revan’s skill/knowledge”, or “Scourge sensed Revan’s power”? I feel the answer should be obvious.

Drew Karpyshyn uses “command of the Force” synonymously with “power” in the Darth Bane trilogy as well.

“Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style.”

-Path of Destruction

If “command of the Force” means mastery, then the above quote makes absolutely no sense. How does mastery of the Force allow one to anticipate lightsaber sequences? Unless it’s not talking about mastery, and is a reference to precognitive abilities, which sure, they can be honed, but precognition is rooted in all Force users as something they can innately do. Not rooted in mastery of the Force, rooted in power.

“But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host’s physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites’ ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one’s own command of the Force.”

-Dynasty of Evil

This quote is probably the best for demonstrating my point, out of all of them. The orbalisks are parasites, insects, non-sentient, non-Force users, they logically and demonstrably do not grant someone “mastery” of the Force, as again, Mastery is defined by having great knowledge and skill in something. Bane’s knowledge and skill level is not being augmented by the orbalisks, the power he has access to when using the Force is being augmented. It should be clear by the context of these quotes that Drew is referring to power when he says “command of the Force”, and the quote from the “Revan” novel concerning the people Meetra has met makes the most sense in the context of power.

Meetra’s Exposure to Nihilus:

I also want to address the point about Meetra only meeting Nihilus for a few seconds while severely weakened. This is largely untrue.

https://youtu.be/XpO__IJra4o?t=18

Seen above, Nihilus is not weakened until *after* the Exile and companions have already walked onto the Ravager bridge, seen Nihilus, taken the walk up to the viewing platform, stopped, waited for Nihilus to turn, get instantly incapacitated by him, and have a short conversation, then, and only then, after all of that, does Nihilus attempt to drain the Exile and become weakened. After that happens, they fight for a bit, at which point Meetra notes that Nihilus is *still* too powerful to defeat, and asks Visas to sever her connection to Nihilus to further weaken the Sith Lord. So Meetra spent more than “a few seconds” on the Ravager bridge in Nihilus’ pre-weakened presence, and was then immediately subjected to a display of Nihilus’ pre-weakened power and forced to fight him, on top of knowing all Nihilus has done before that meeting, and she *still* maintains that Revan was more powerful. You attempting to skirt around the order of events and downplay exactly what happened doesn’t change the fact, Meetra was *subject* to a full strength Nihilus’ power, and spent quite some time in his presence and on his ship. To insinuate that Meetra doesn’t have a reasonably detailed idea of how powerful Nihilus is at that point is hilarious.


Standing to Emperor Vitiate:


Revan has demonstrated comparability to Emperor Vitiate during their duel in “The Old Republic: Revan”, and by virtue of that, should be superior to Nihilus considerably.


Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.


Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia


The fight:

As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.


Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan


What we see here are “steps” in the progression of the duel. For starters, Revan is sent backwards by a Force Wave, which is normal. What happens next is interesting, Vitiate attempts to dominate Revan’s mind, and in response, Revan opens himself to the Force, channeling both sides, and sens Vitiate flying backwards, where he lands “in a heap.”


The definition of “in a heap” reads, “(of a person) with the body completely limp”, “if you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen”, If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move.” In short, Vitiate falls stunned, unable to move, were Revan in closer proximity to Vitiate, this would have been the end of the duel in most other cases.

Following this, Revan deflects four lightning bolts, and finally, Vitiate charges a lightning storm in a way Revan describes as similar to how Darth Nyriss did earlier in the book, Revan is ultimately overpowered by this, but is ready to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later, Note also that Vitiate is “infinitely more powerful” than Nyriss, who was able to stop Meetra and Scourge dead in their tracks and turn armored soldiers to ash with ease, by all rights this attack should have killed Revan, but it didn’t, he mitigated most of it and survived what he couldn’t absorb. Also note that Revan’s victory was a very real possibility, that Scourge saw this victory in visions, and that the near victory inspired Vitiate to begin inhabiting Voices, all of which supports the notion that Revan and Vitiate were comparable in this bout. Also keep in mind that Dromund Kaas was a potent dark side nexus, and the site of the duel was in the Emperor’s throne room, the seat of his power where he spent all of his time, so the possibility exists that it was a dark side nexus on top of a dark side nexus, yet Revan still performed as well as he did. It stands to reason that Revan defeating Vitiate was very much possible, and on even ground, could have been the likely outcome.

Now, “why does all of this mean that Revan is better than Nihilus?” Well I’m glad you asked, friend. Kreia makes it a point to say that she fears Darth Nihilus is *beginning* to rival some of the ancient Sith, meaning he is not at their level. As opposed to Vitiate, who is constantly paraded as a dark side god that eclipses all the other ancient Sith.

I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. 


-KotOR II

Chris Avellone confirms that Kreia’s predictions are accurate. While he says this in relation to KotOR III, the in-universe details of this are solid. The ancient true Sith were revealed in-universe to be Vitiate and his Empire, I see no reason this can’t be applied to the current lore.

“Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR 3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate….”

-Chris Avellone

So Darth Nihilus is, at best, approaching or rivaling *some* of the ancient Sith, which Vitiate is the most powerful of, by virtue of his superiority to KotOR Revan, who a superior of Darth Malak, who is likewise “far” more powerful than Exar Kun, who destroyed Freedon Nadd (spirit) who was (reportedly) far more powerful than Naga Sadow.


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"


―Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak

This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed.


Credit: Exar Kun, Star Wars Galactic Files


Freedon Nadd studied avidly under Naga Sadow. Eventually, the apprentice became far more powerful than the teacher.


Credit: The Official Star Wars Fact File 90


Even ignoring all of this, Revan has a further claim to supremacy over Nihilus in the form of his superiority to the Emperor’s Voice seen in vanilla SWTOR. By this point, Vitiate is unequivocally the most powerful “conventional” Force user in history.


The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

The Hero of Tython succeeds in *defeating* this Vitiate, who again, is the absolute GOAT Sith Lord in history to this point.


https://youtu.be/zoFNJ7UophU?t=366

Vitiate was not severely weakened here, as is so commonly believed. Scourge asserts that, by the time the HoT has reached Vitiate, he has regained his strength.

“You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are both fortunate to be alive.”

“You dissipated your energy saving the weak. There are consequences.”

Vitiate at the time was also sitting on a powerful dark side nexus which aided his recovery with its own power.

The bottom line here being that Scourge asserts that Vitiate had recovered his strength, so the implication is that he was at or near his full power when the HoT fought and slew him. So HoT is greater than vanilla Vitiate is greater than Vitiate is greater than Nihilus, ya follow? Good.

Fast forward to “Shadow of Revan”, Revan is consistently stated to be more powerful than any one individual can defeat, with Darth Marr saying that even their combined militaries would fail to defeat him. The fights against Revan himself hammer this in, dialogue in the fight demonstrates the entire team is being overpowered, and a scripted event in that fight showcases Revan ragdolling the team.


"Revan['s Spirit] wants me to succeed, but claims I can't do it on my own."


Source: The Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan


"We'll need our full strength to defeat Revan when the time comes. Don't do anything to jeopardize that."

Source: The Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan


"But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop."
"Revan."

Source: Darth Marr and the Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan

https://youtu.be/vJrvRrzk6_Y


The conclusion here is that Revan circa “Shadow of Revan” is vastly more powerful than the SoR Hero of Tython, who himself is superior to what he was when he killed Vitiate, Vitiate being an objective superior of Darth Nihilus.

Revan is far superior to Nihilus.

@Azronger

That last bit I added was just an extra thing I wanted to mention. The main goal of this thread was to discuss the two beliefs above (your thoughts are welcome even if you disagree with it all) . Considering that last bit, I have rarely seen anyone take that bit into consideration with tournament/battle threads anyways. Also its only applicable in cases where Nihilus's opponent is more powerful in the Force and so it's ambiguity is not relevant in many cases. I agree with you on that it's ambiguous but nonetheless should still have some weight of consideration.

@Darth Nihilus The very reason he's banned in the tournament is because he's unquantifiable. We have no way to ascertain the extent of the amp he gets from being in the vicinity of other powerful Force-users. At least I can't think of a way.

darthbane77 wrote:Revan WILL Resist Nihilus’ Drain:



The Sith Assassins and Teachings of Malachor V:



The Sith Assassins in KotOR II, the ones who boast a lesser version of Nihilus’ drain, grow stronger depending on how powerful their opponent is, and can track Force sensitives via their “hunger”, were a sect of assassins Kreia alludes to have been formed and trained by Darth Revan.

"The sect of assassins that chase you feed on the Force . . . Those Sith assassins can sense their prey through the Force - it is like a hunger. They feed, and grow stronger, when they are near Force Sensitives. The stronger their prey is in the Force, the deadlier they become."


Source: Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords



"So Revan trained elite Sith units into assassination squads, whose duty was to go out and capture enemy Jedi. I was in one of the special units trained to do this. Revan had plans for all Jedi. I think it was important that the Jedi see her side of things, the Sith teachings. Revan wanted to break them. And then have them join him."

Source: Atton Rand, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against.
Source: Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


The interesting thing is that Kreia describes Nihilus’ drain in the exact same way she describes these techniques the Jedi couldn’t defend from.



https://youtu.be/ISQg6yzWJ2s?t=55


Which we know explicitly is how Kreia was stripped of her connection to the Force in the first place.



"Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights—so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross. But Traya underestimates her disciples' depravity. They turn on her and drain her Force powers."


―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


We also know Traya learned extensively from the libraries of knowledge on Malchor V, conveniently being the same place Nihilus learned his Drain technique, and where Traya encounters the aforementioned Sith assassins “left by Darth Revan.”



Within its Trayus Academy, she encounters assassins left by Darth Revan, but instead of attacking, they present her with Sith hermetica. "The truth of the cosmos", these writings intimated, "are not intended for the sane." Intrigued, Kreia scours the texts through the Force, suspecting their authors were in fact pureblood descendants of the Sith people.


Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide


What we know for a fact then, is that Revan taught the assassins how to use the Drain technique they use, and we know that technique is identical to Nihilus’ in all but scope/scale. Revan knows the technique Nihilus uses, and Kreia’s opinion that the technique has no defense against it is backed by nothing, it’s just her opinion. As with any Force ability, if one can use it, it stands to reason they would know how to protect themselves from the same technique. Chris Avellone even corroborated this in a conversation I had with him.






Malachor V:


"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface - drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."


- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


"It is ancient, a relic that survived the destruction of Malachor. It was always here, far before the Mandalorian Wars. It draws death and hate to it, channels it. Atrocities feed its power, and with its power, it creates hunger. Many Jedi have been consumed by it."

-Darth Sion


Malachor V explicitly “feeds on death”, which Kreia likewise states that Nihilus’ drain does.



"It is a technique that is almost as old as the Sith themselves…it is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. It cannot be taught…it can only be gained through instinct, through experiencing its effects, first-hand."


Kreia rarely, if ever, discusses Force Drain in the game outside the context of Darth Nihilus, so the assumption can be made safely that she’s referring to him.

Nihilus also bears other similarities to Malachor V’s effect, he’s credited as having a “sundering aura”, which corrupts those near him and makes them bend to his will.

"Sundered by Nihilus's aura, young Visas can see only death in the Force. Accepting Nihilus' unspoken invitation, she pledges herself to the Dark Lord"


―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide



"Nihilus powers grew so extreme that, for most beings, mere exposure to the Sith Lord would cause immediate and utterly mindless devotion."


―Star Wars Insider 88: Virtual Sith


So the wound in Malachor V feeds on death, the wound in Nihilus feeds on death. Nihilus’ presence is corrupting to people, Malachor V is corrupting to people. One of the overarching points of the game is that the wounds in Nihilus and Meetra are “echoes” of the wound created on Malachor V. “Echo” translating to “a repetition or imitation of another”, or “repeat, imitate”, or “to be reminiscent of.” Everything Nihilus and Meetra are, everything they do, is a reflection of Malachor V



"You are a breach that must be closed. You transmit your pain, your suffering through the Force. Within you we see something worse than the teachings of the Sith. What you carry may mean the death of the Force… and the death of the Jedi."

-KotOR II


A line of dialogue (unsure of who says it, but it’s in the dialogue files, I presume it’s Kreia or one of the Jedi Council) enforces that Meetra carries that echo.


“And that is why Malachor echoes within you still.”

-KotOR II, tlk line 111476.



The Star Forge:

An expanded version of a quote you used in your own argument (seems you have a bad habit of using quotes that can be easily turned against you) draws an indirect comparison between the semi-sentien Rakata superweapon and the wound in the Force within Malachor V. That comparison being that both instances are a threat to the existence of the Force itself.

There is no one left with the power to control the Forge, though many have tried. I have watched them be devoured, their life drained from them as they attempt to tap into its power. Knowing what we do of the Builders and their fate, I'm convinced that Revan did not intend us to keep the Star Forge - to use it would mean the end of the Sith, the end of the Force.
 
Source: Bastila Shan, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords


It’s also interesting that just prior to this declaration, Bastila is speaking on how the Star Forge drains the life from those who try to use it, Revan is an exception to this presumed rule, the other exception being Darth Malak.

So the Star Forge feeds on people and its continued use by the Sith would have resulted in the death of the Force. Sounds ominously like a certain planet we’ve been discussing, no?
-----
Our conclusions on this front are that:

1: Revan knows how to use this technique, which gives credence to the idea he can defend against it. He also taught it to others, and it’s unreasonable to posit that a Sith Lord as intelligent, tactically sound, and careful as Darth Revan, would teach a technique to followers that he himself would be unable to protect himself against.

2: Malachor V and Nihilus drain both “feed on death”, and corrupt those in its proximity that cannot defend themselves against the aura, making Nihilus, his drain, and Malachor V essentially identical.

3: Nihilus and Meetra Surik are both either explicitly or implicitly stated to be “echoes” of the wound in the Force which was created in Malachor V. Being “echoes” means they’re reflections, making them similar or identical to the source.

4: Revan has resisted the dominating and draining effects of the Star Forge, which has the distinct quality of being a threat to the existence of the Force, like Malachor, Nihilus, and Meetra, all of which are wounds in the Force. *hint, hint*

If there is a single person in the mythos that can defend themself against Nihilus’ drain, Revan is undoubtedly that person.


Revan IS Canonically Superior to Nihilus:


Meetra’s Opinion:


Let’s address the following quote first, and discuss why it refers to raw power, not mastery.

She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan’s doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him: Revan’s command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met.


-Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan


At a glance, “command of the Force” could be interpreted as meaning mastery, and your or anyone else could be forgiven for making that mistake, but precedent within both the same novel and in other novels written by Drew Karpyshyn does not support that idea.

“The Jedi’s command of and connection to the Force was unlike anything Scourge had sensed in anyone else. Even though Revan was constantly drugged, it was impossible not to sense his strength.”

-The Old Republic: Revan

In the above quote, Scourge senses Revan’s command of and connection to the Force, and then makes a note on sensing Revan’s strength. Obviously “connection” to the Force is not raw applicable power, Qui-Gon Jinn sensed Anakin’s impossibly powerful connection to the Force, but clearly nine year old slave boy Skywalker wasn’t about to go toe to toe with the Ones or challenge Yoda and Darth Sidious to a fight. The quote goes on to directly note Scourge is sensing Revan’s “strength” in direct relation to the previously stated “command of” and “connection to” the Force. “Mastery” denotes a high level of knowledge or skill in, neither of which are things that can be sensed, at least to my knowledge. So which makes more sense “Scourge sensed Revan’s skill/knowledge”, or “Scourge sensed Revan’s power”? I feel the answer should be obvious.

Drew Karpyshyn uses “command of the Force” synonymously with “power” in the Darth Bane trilogy as well.

“Without proper training, even his enormous command of the Force was unable to anticipate unfamiliar sequences of the two-handed fighting style.”

-Path of Destruction

If “command of the Force” means mastery, then the above quote makes absolutely no sense. How does mastery of the Force allow one to anticipate lightsaber sequences? Unless it’s not talking about mastery, and is a reference to precognitive abilities, which sure, they can be honed, but precognition is rooted in all Force users as something they can innately do. Not rooted in mastery of the Force, rooted in power.

“But he also learned that, in addition to boosting a host’s physical abilities, it was possible to tap into the parasites’ ability to feed on the dark side to greatly increase one’s own command of the Force.”

-Dynasty of Evil

This quote is probably the best for demonstrating my point, out of all of them. The orbalisks are parasites, insects, non-sentient, non-Force users, they logically and demonstrably do not grant someone “mastery” of the Force, as again, Mastery is defined by having great knowledge and skill in something. Bane’s knowledge and skill level is not being augmented by the orbalisks, the power he has access to when using the Force is being augmented. It should be clear by the context of these quotes that Drew is referring to power when he says “command of the Force”, and the quote from the “Revan” novel concerning the people Meetra has met makes the most sense in the context of power.

Meetra’s Exposure to Nihilus:

I also want to address the point about Meetra only meeting Nihilus for a few seconds while severely weakened. This is largely untrue.

https://youtu.be/XpO__IJra4o?t=18

Seen above, Nihilus is not weakened until *after* the Exile and companions have already walked onto the Ravager bridge, seen Nihilus, taken the walk up to the viewing platform, stopped, waited for Nihilus to turn, get instantly incapacitated by him, and have a short conversation, then, and only then, after all of that, does Nihilus attempt to drain the Exile and become weakened. After that happens, they fight for a bit, at which point Meetra notes that Nihilus is *still* too powerful to defeat, and asks Visas to sever her connection to Nihilus to further weaken the Sith Lord. So Meetra spent more than “a few seconds” on the Ravager bridge in Nihilus’ pre-weakened presence, and was then immediately subjected to a display of Nihilus’ pre-weakened power and forced to fight him, on top of knowing all Nihilus has done before that meeting, and she *still* maintains that Revan was more powerful. You attempting to skirt around the order of events and downplay exactly what happened doesn’t change the fact, Meetra was *subject* to a full strength Nihilus’ power, and spent quite some time in his presence and on his ship. To insinuate that Meetra doesn’t have a reasonably detailed idea of how powerful Nihilus is at that point is hilarious.


Standing to Emperor Vitiate:


Revan has demonstrated comparability to Emperor Vitiate during their duel in “The Old Republic: Revan”, and by virtue of that, should be superior to Nihilus considerably.


Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.


Source: Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia


The fight:

As Meetra and Scourge battled the Guard, Revan charged toward the Emperor.
His opponent stood perfectly still, focusing and channeling his power. At the last possible instant, the Emperor unleashed a wave of energy that swept Revan off his feet and sent him flying backward.
Revan twisted in midair so that he was able to roll with the impact when he landed. He quickly sprang back to his feet and advanced again, moving more slowly this time.
The Emperor stood in the exact same position as before; it was as if he hadn’t even moved. Revan began to sense the oppressive presence of the dark side weighing down on him. The Emperor was trying to crush his will: to dominate and enslave his mind as he had before. This time, however, Revan was ready.
Instead of charging forward, he opened himself up to the Force, letting both the light and the dark side flow through him like twin rushing rivers. But instead of focusing or channeling the Force, he released it in its purest form.
There was brilliant flash as the air between the two combatants lit up. The energy unleashed was powerful enough to send Revan staggering. The Emperor, unprepared and with much of his strength diverted to his effort to dominate Revan’s mind, was sent flying backward.
He landed in a heap on the floor and Revan raced toward him. The Emperor rolled over, lifted himself up on one knee, and his hands flew forward as he hurtled a bolt of dark side lightning at his enemy.
Revan intercepted the bolt with the blade of his lightsaber, though the impact stopped his charge dead in its tracks.
The Emperor unleashed three more bolts in quick succession. Revan batted the first aside with his lightsaber, ducked the second, then deflected the third back in the direction of its source.
It struck the Emperor in the chest, sending him sliding several meters back on the floor. For the first time the Sith’s emotionless veneer cracked as he let out a primal hiss of hate. The sound sent shivers down Revan’s spine.
The Emperor rose to his feet, his robes smoking and singed where the lighting had struck him. His black eyes flashed red, and he raised both hands high above his head.
Revan knew he was gathering his power to unleash a swirling storm of pure dark side energy, just as Nyriss had done. The Jedi quickly calculated his options. Realizing he couldn’t close the gap between them quickly enough to stop the assault, he gathered his own energy and spread his hands before him, ready to catch and absorb the Emperor’s attack.
A dozen bolts of purple lightning arced from the Emperor toward him. Revan tried to draw them in and contain them, but the Emperor was infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been.
Revan’s body was engulfed in agony as the electricity coursed through his body. His skin began to boil and blister, the flesh of his face melting and sticking to the superheated metal of his mask as the Emperor poured more and more power into him.


Source: Star Wars The Old Republic - Revan


What we see here are “steps” in the progression of the duel. For starters, Revan is sent backwards by a Force Wave, which is normal. What happens next is interesting, Vitiate attempts to dominate Revan’s mind, and in response, Revan opens himself to the Force, channeling both sides, and sens Vitiate flying backwards, where he lands “in a heap.”


The definition of “in a heap” reads, “(of a person) with the body completely limp”, “if you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen”, If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move.” In short, Vitiate falls stunned, unable to move, were Revan in closer proximity to Vitiate, this would have been the end of the duel in most other cases.

Following this, Revan deflects four lightning bolts, and finally, Vitiate charges a lightning storm in a way Revan describes as similar to how Darth Nyriss did earlier in the book, Revan is ultimately overpowered by this, but is ready to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later, Note also that Vitiate is “infinitely more powerful” than Nyriss, who was able to stop Meetra and Scourge dead in their tracks and turn armored soldiers to ash with ease, by all rights this attack should have killed Revan, but it didn’t, he mitigated most of it and survived what he couldn’t absorb. Also note that Revan’s victory was a very real possibility, that Scourge saw this victory in visions, and that the near victory inspired Vitiate to begin inhabiting Voices, all of which supports the notion that Revan and Vitiate were comparable in this bout. Also keep in mind that Dromund Kaas was a potent dark side nexus, and the site of the duel was in the Emperor’s throne room, the seat of his power where he spent all of his time, so the possibility exists that it was a dark side nexus on top of a dark side nexus, yet Revan still performed as well as he did. It stands to reason that Revan defeating Vitiate was very much possible, and on even ground, could have been the likely outcome.

Now, “why does all of this mean that Revan is better than Nihilus?” Well I’m glad you asked, friend. Kreia makes it a point to say that she fears Darth Nihilus is *beginning* to rival some of the ancient Sith, meaning he is not at their level. As opposed to Vitiate, who is constantly paraded as a dark side god that eclipses all the other ancient Sith.

I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. 


-KotOR II

Chris Avellone confirms that Kreia’s predictions are accurate. While he says this in relation to KotOR III, the in-universe details of this are solid. The ancient true Sith were revealed in-universe to be Vitiate and his Empire, I see no reason this can’t be applied to the current lore.

“Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR 3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate….”

-Chris Avellone

So Darth Nihilus is, at best, approaching or rivaling *some* of the ancient Sith, which Vitiate is the most powerful of, by virtue of his superiority to KotOR Revan, who a superior of Darth Malak, who is likewise “far” more powerful than Exar Kun, who destroyed Freedon Nadd (spirit) who was (reportedly) far more powerful than Naga Sadow.


"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"


―Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak

This leads him to the tomb of a long-deceased Dark Lord named Freedon Nadd, a spirit who is destroyed by Kun after all of his magical knowledge is absorbed.


Credit: Exar Kun, Star Wars Galactic Files


Freedon Nadd studied avidly under Naga Sadow. Eventually, the apprentice became far more powerful than the teacher.


Credit: The Official Star Wars Fact File 90


Even ignoring all of this, Revan has a further claim to supremacy over Nihilus in the form of his superiority to the Emperor’s Voice seen in vanilla SWTOR. By this point, Vitiate is unequivocally the most powerful “conventional” Force user in history.


The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The Sith Emperor, history's most powerful dark side master, performed a ritual of incredible scope to consume the life energy of every being on his homeworld.

From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia)

The Sith Emperor has mastered the dark side's power to become the most dominating Force-user the galaxy has ever seen.
From (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex Entry titled "The Emperor's Fallen Jedi (Knight).")

The Hero of Tython succeeds in *defeating* this Vitiate, who again, is the absolute GOAT Sith Lord in history to this point.


https://youtu.be/zoFNJ7UophU?t=366

Vitiate was not severely weakened here, as is so commonly believed. Scourge asserts that, by the time the HoT has reached Vitiate, he has regained his strength.

“You gave the Emperor time to gather his strength. We are both fortunate to be alive.”

“You dissipated your energy saving the weak. There are consequences.”

Vitiate at the time was also sitting on a powerful dark side nexus which aided his recovery with its own power.

The bottom line here being that Scourge asserts that Vitiate had recovered his strength, so the implication is that he was at or near his full power when the HoT fought and slew him. So HoT is greater than vanilla Vitiate is greater than Vitiate is greater than Nihilus, ya follow? Good.

Fast forward to “Shadow of Revan”, Revan is consistently stated to be more powerful than any one individual can defeat, with Darth Marr saying that even their combined militaries would fail to defeat him. The fights against Revan himself hammer this in, dialogue in the fight demonstrates the entire team is being overpowered, and a scripted event in that fight showcases Revan ragdolling the team.


"Revan['s Spirit] wants me to succeed, but claims I can't do it on my own."


Source: The Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan


"We'll need our full strength to defeat Revan when the time comes. Don't do anything to jeopardize that."

Source: The Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan


"But we aren't finished yet. There is one element even our combined militaries will be unable to stop."
"Revan."

Source: Darth Marr and the Outlander, Star Wars The Old Republic - Shadow of Revan

https://youtu.be/vJrvRrzk6_Y


The conclusion here is that Revan circa “Shadow of Revan” is vastly more powerful than the SoR Hero of Tython, who himself is superior to what he was when he killed Vitiate, Vitiate being an objective superior of Darth Nihilus.

Revan is far superior to Nihilus.

This is a very well-constructed counter-argument (credit where due), but I have following contentions:

1. The Sith Emperor had defeated Revan (Reborn) in that fight. T3-M4 prevented Revan from being COOKED alive by bathing Tenebrae with fire who then had to release Revan at this point and divert his attention towards absorbing the fire and destroying the droid in return. Revan was lying on the ground burned yet alive but was not in the position to do anything. Then Meetra Surik intervened and diverted Tenebrae's attention once more. Therefore, both T3-M4 and Meetra Surik deserve the credit for giving Revan ample opportunity to recover from his injuries and get back to his feet.

Through the haze of indescribable pain, he saw T3-M4 rushing in to help him. The droid let loose with his flamethrower, bathing the Emperor in fire. At the last instant the Emperor cocooned himself in the Force to save himself from being incinerated, breaking his focus on Revan.

The Jedi collapsed to the ground, burned but still alive, the hilt of his extinguished lightsaber lying on the floor less than a meter beyond his grasp.

Almost too weak to move, Revan managed to raise his head just in time to see the Emperor turn on the brave little astromech. A tremor rippled through the air as the Emperor unleashed the full power of the Force against the defenseless droid.

T3 never stood a chance. The little droid exploded into a million pieces, internal circuits and external casing obliterated in a single instant.

“No!” Revan screamed from the ground as bits of his friend rained down on him in the form of unrecognizable shrapnel.

He tried to rise, but his injured body refused to respond. Instinctively, he called on the Force to give him strength and heal his wounds.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

While Revan was in the process of healing his injuries, he still needed more time to recover:

The Emperor was approaching him with calm, purposeful steps. Once he reached Revan’s side he calmly bent down and picked up the Jedi’s fallen weapon, igniting the blade.

The healing properties of the Force were powerful, but Revan’s wounds were severe and he needed more time to restore his strength. Helpless, he could only stare up at the Emperor as he raised the lightsaber to deliver the killing blow.

EVEN AS SHE CALLED to Scourge to help, Meetra was already sprinting toward the far end of the throne room. Scourge hesitated before joining her, taking a moment to survey the situation, memories of his vision of their failure still fresh in his mind.

What he saw was not good. Revan was being electrocuted, his body spasming uncontrollably as the Emperor blasted him with dark purple
lightning.

Revan’s astromech launched a jet of flame at the Emperor, freeing Revan, who collapsed to the ground. In retaliation, the Emperor disintegrated the offending droid, strode over to where Revan lay, and picked the vanquished Jedi’s lightsaber up off the floor.

It all happened in the space of only a few seconds. Meetra was moving fast, but she was too far away to stop the Emperor from eviscerating the prone Jedi at his feet.

In desperation, she hurled her lightsaber with a wild sidearm throw, guiding it with the Force so that it spiraled end-over-end to intercept the descending blade, knocking it from the Emperor’s grasp and sending it skittering across the floor.

Suddenly empty-handed, the Emperor took a quick step back. His attention had been focused solely on Revan; Meetra’s trick had caught him by surprise. Scourge realized that if she had aimed at the Emperor instead of the blade, she could have ended his life even as he ended Revan’s. But her instincts to save her friend overrode her desire to kill her enemy, and Scourge could only lament the lost opportunity.

Meetra was still rushing forward, using the Force to return her lightsaber to her waiting hand.

Sensing hesitation and uncertainty in the Emperor as he tried to evaluate the strength and weaknesses of his new foe, Scourge rushed forward to join Meetra and Revan.

Meetra had placed herself between the Emperor and Revan, valiantly protecting her wounded friend. As Scourge reached them, Revan
managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.

The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

However, Lord Scourge was not sure that even the TRIO of them (Revan; Meetra; himself) were sufficient to defeat The Sith Emperor. The fight could go either way as per the visions but Lord Scourge came to terms with the more likely outcome eventually:

Betraying his allies had not altered the inevitable outcome; the Emperor would have won regardless. At least this way Scourge was still alive to carry on their cause.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

2. Regarding environmental considerations (e.g. Dromund Kaas), it shall be noted that Revan is not hindered by such environments because he is able to call upon the dark side to facilitate his moves. This is a PLUS for Revan in short.

Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement suggest that Revan posit a LEGITIMATE threat to the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.

Revan's ability to wield the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies, is a talent UNIQUE to him among all known Jedi, and make him one of the most formidable combatants ever. The Sith Emperor would have absolutely CRUSHED a lesser foe but Revan was able to give him a fight for his life which is something significant and reinforce the notion that the latter was not hindered by environments.

THAT confrontation was on FAIR TERMS to both. Tenebrae was POTENT in 'any' environment that I recall. NATHEMA was the only environment that he found to be stressful to cope with, his own creation by the way.

Meetra Surik who was actually sensitive to environmental considerations, even she was able to defeat Darth Traya on Malachor V which suggest that she had a way to mitigate such pressures in personal capacity.

3. I would caution that Revan as of the Shadow of Revan is not a Jedi Master, or even a natural being, and his powers approached new heights at this point in time. See my response in the following thread: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3086-does-revan-scale-from-his-sor-feats

Revan (SoR) is a different beast in my view.

Azronger wrote:This fits better in the blog section, so I've moved it.

On topic, the last bit is exactly what I was referring to with regards to Nihilus's power level being nebulous in the tournament thread. If he gets stronger the more powerful his opponent is, how can we know the extent of that amp? Is there any way to actually quantify how strong he'd be against certain adversaries?

Isn't Kueller growing stronger against the power of opponents the biggest part of EC's case in the tournament? 

Also, nice post as always OP, glad to see some Nihilus respect

Revan would definitely have ways to counter Force Drain and similar applications, but Darth Nihilus took this matter to a whole new level in comparison to Revan's former followers (e.g. an elite group of Sith Assassins who were particularly trained in the use of these applications) and also Darth Traya who destroyed 3 powerful Jedi Masters in one go.

As WE see in the case of Force Lightning, numerous Sith Lords are proficient in its use. However, most powerful practitioners of the dark side can produce Force Lightning of such scale and intensity, that it becomes virtually impractical to contain their power with a lightsaber and otherwise.

Therefore, Darth Nihilus shall not be written off so easily...

Further debate might be necessary.

Want to see @Jaggarath respond.

@darthbane77


While at first glance the Sith assassins that Revan trained may seem like the Sith assassins using Nihilus’s technique, there are some points in place. Firstly, it is clearly stated that the technique has to be gained through instinct and by experiencing it’s effects first hand. When Revan trained those Sith assassination units, this was all before KOTOR 2 and before any Force wounds. As such, how were these assassins able to learn this technique in the first place? Not just that, but Atton Rand clearly says that he was in the special units trained to do this and yet we never see him using Nihilus’s technique anywhere. Also those Sith unit’s, that Revan trained, specific purpose was to capture Jedi in order for Revan to convert them while the Sith Assassins using techniques in the Force killed Jedi.

"So Revan trained elite Sith units into assassination squads, whose duty was to go out and capture enemy Jedi. I was in one of the special units trained to do this. Revan had plans for all Jedi. I think it was important that the Jedi see her side of things, the Sith teachings. Revan wanted to break them. And then have them join him."

-Atton Rand, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

 

During the Jedi Civil War, many Jedi fell at the hands of Sith assassins, using techniques in the Force the Jedi could not defend against.


-Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords

 

If Kreia learned about this technique from Darth Revan(who assuming taught those assassins) and she is actually claiming that there is no defense against it, then this clearly implies that Darth Revan did not have a defense against it either or else Kreia would have learned a defense against it from Revan.Not just that, but even if Revan taught this technique, Nihilus took it to a completely different level with his ‘life draining gift’ as Kreia calls it. Kreia ‘leaving herself vulnerable’ could have easily meant that she would have kept a distance from Nihilus had she expected him to attack her like that. However, Revan would not have taken such a risk of being vulnerable and hence Chris mentions Revan being more tactically sound.

 

Malachor V

Malachor V ‘feeds on death’ does not mean that Malachor V is devouring Force connections whatsoever. As a matter of fact, it is simply stated that Malachor V feeds on death while Nihilus’s technique feeds on the death it causes. Big distinction. Similarity of ‘feeding on death’ does not at all mean that Malachor V devours Force connections simply because it feeds on death. As a matter of fact, that’s why Kreia tells Meetra that she is like Malachor V. Both feed on deaths; that’s simply a similarity. Nihilus’s aura made people mindlessly devoted to him not to the dark side like Malachor. You are simply pointing some similarities between Nihilus and Malachor V and randomly jumping to the conclusion that Malachor V can devour Force connections. Baseless argument. Quite to the contrary, you completely ignored the argument about Kreia failing to resist Malachor V and yet she is not devoured of the Force by this and simply corrupted. Clearly, Malachor V does not devour Force connections and thus does not Force drain. In addition, Revan ‘resisted’ Malachor V before it even became a wound in the Force. So, your whole ‘wound similarity’ argument is flawed and irrelevant in either case.

 

Star Forge

You have completely ignored the fact that the Star Forge life drained users and does not devour Force connections like Nihilus. Not to mention the Star Forge draining users is no where near as Nihilus draining planets.

Our conclusions (as you call it):

1.     Assuming Revan knows this technique, that does not mean he can defend against it. Why? Kreia knew this technique and yet she couldn’t defend against it. Not only that, she even mentions that there is no defense against it. Considering she learned this technique from Revan, this clearly implies that Revan did not have any defense against it. “it’s unreasonable to posit that a Sith Lord as intelligent, tactically sound, and careful as Darth Revan, would teach a technique to followers that he himself would be unable to protect himself against.” Another baseless assumption with nothing to present.

 

2.     Malachor V does not drain. Simply pointing out a similarity that both Nihilus and Malachor V feed on death is completely pointless. Meetra feeds on death, does this mean she devours Force connections? Feeding on death does not mean you devour Force connections. Again, pointing out Nihilus’s aura is completely irrelevant here and it’s not in fact identical to Malachor.

 

3.What is this point suppose to lead to? Another irrelevant similarity? Echo is more of a beacon anyways. Not that it matters to the arguments anyways.

4. Revan resisting the life draining effects of the Star Forge is completely irrelevant. Not the same as Nihilus’s drain. Simply mentioning that using the Star Forge would mean ‘the end of the Force’ does not mean it’s devouring Force connections. Again, another baseless assumption.

Your whole arguments up until now have done nothing but point out some similarities between Nihilus and Malachor V and randomly jumping to baseless conclusions. You have completely ignored the points I made about Kreia failing to resist Malachor, the Star Forge life draining and not devouring Force connections, Revan using Malachor to seduce light side users (if it devoured force connections this wouldn’t be possible) and some other points as well. Instead of drawing pointless similarities, I want you to specifically jump to the points I made, which you have avoided in your whole argument of baseless assumptions. Not only that, you have to clearly prove that Malachor V (BEFORE even becoming a wound, as Revan was there before that) and the Star Forge devour Force connections. Your whole argument has been completely irrelevant.

 

Revan canonically superior

As a matter of fact, the idea that ‘Command of the force’ referring to knowledge/mastery/ability to direct/control/use/call upon and not raw Power is supported on many occasions by novels written by Drew Karpyshyn. I have placed many quotes below written by Drew Karpyshyn on his novels. On each ‘Command of the Force’ instance, I have used [ ] to describe what it meant from knowledge/mastery/ability to direct/control/use/call upon. It is very clear that ‘Command of the Force’ does not always mean raw Force power. In fact, in most cases it doesn’t.


      -Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

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He was completely aware of his surroundings at all times, sensing the presence of others. Sometimes he could even get a feel of their intentions, vague impressions of their very thoughts. He was able to levitate larger objects now, and for longer periods. With each lesson his power [Distinguished from Command] grew. It became easier and easier to command the Force [Control] [ Raw Force power doesn’t not many any sense here] and bend [Use it to his will] it to his will.

 

True victory in this war will not come through armies, but through the Brotherhood of Darkness. Our greatest weapon is the Force, and those individuals who have the power to command it [Command is the ability to use/direct the Force; No raw Force power context here]. Individuals like you.

 

"The power [Not Command; Distinguished] of the dark side. The heat of passion and emotion. I can feel it in you, as well. Burning beneath the surface. Burning like your anger. It makes you strong."

There was, however, one sanctioned way students could bring a rival down: lightsaber combat. The chosen weapon of both the Jedi and the Sith, the lightsaber was more than just a blade of energy capable of cutting through almost every material in the known galaxy. The lightsaber was an extension of the user and his or her command of the Force [ Mastery; refer to the next bold parts and pay close attention to ‘mental discipline’; Lightsaber is also not dependent on Raw Force Power ]. Only those with strict mental discipline and total physical mastery could use the weapon effectively ... or so Bane and the others had been taught.

But it was more than just lack of sleep that left him in a dazed stupor. The passion that had driven him was gone. The raging fire inside him had vanished, replaced by a cold emptiness. And without his passion, he was unable to summon the power of the dark side. It was becoming harder and harder to command the Force [Control/Usage/Direct; Clearly you don’t lose raw Force Power].



Since coming to the Academy he had worked toward one clear goal. All his studying, all his training had been for one single purpose: to understand and command the power of the dark side of the Force [Mastery/Knowledge; his studying and training was to allow him to command/control the Force; thus not Raw Force Power]. The dark side would bring him power. Glory. Strength. Freedom.



When he didn't reply she took a deep breath and continued. "They're wrong, Bane. You can't just lose your ability to command the Force [Control/Usage/Call upon; Raw Force Power here doesn’t make sense to the sentence]. None of us can. The Force is part of us; it's part of our being.

 

His words carried the righteous weight of truth. Last time he'd felt hollow inside, as if something had been taken from him. This time he could still feel the Force flowing through him in all its savage glory, filling him with its heat and power. This time the dark side remained his to command [Control/Usage; Raw Force Power doesn’t leave you in order to ‘remain’].

 

To survive, the Sith had to vanish, becoming creatures of myth, legend, and nightmares. Hidden from the eyes of the Jedi, they could seek out the lost secrets of the dark side until its full power was theirs to command [Control/Usage/Direct]. Only then-once victory over their enemies was certain-would they tear aside the veil of shadows and reveal themselves.



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Star Wars: Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil

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Bane also collected the treasures of the ancient Sith, but he preferred the wisdom contained in the ancient texts. Zannah knew he looked on the rings, amulets, and other paraphernalia with disdain. The spark of the dark side that burned within them was like a single drop of rain falling into the ocean of power he already commanded [Controlled]


But there was one thing worthwhile in Zannah's offer. He had been given a glimpse of what she was capable of during their one-sided battle in his living room. It might be worth a few years of following orders and calling her "Master" if he could learn to command [Mastery; Raw Force Power can’t be learned] that kind of power for himself.


Learning to harness that power-to take control of his destiny, rather than to let it keep controlling him-had allowed him to ascend to his current position. The Force had become a tool; its power was his to command and bend to his will [ Power of the Force distinguished from command; its power was his to command/control/manipulate/direct and bend/use/usage to his will]
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Meetra’s exposure to Nihilus

Meetra knowing what Nihilus has done ‘before that meeting’ will not allow her to sense how powerful Nihilus is in the Force. She hasn’t even meet him at that point. Also, consider the following:

"A scene where the players are approaching Nihilus from behind, he doesn't even turn around as they advance down the bridge. Nihilus turns, raises his hand, and the entire party is raised into the air, similar to Force Crush. He speaks, his voice roaring, and the player should realize that Nihilus is far more powerful than they had believed. Nihilus lets player fall and get to her feet. Nihilus walks over to the player. Player kneels. As Nihilus reaches out with his power, he drains the player with vampiric energy, and then suddenly reels back, collapsing on the ground. “

―Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords (Cut Content)

It is made very clear that Meetra did not anticipate how powerful Nihilus was and she only realized he was a lot more powerful than she had originally thought when the party is raised into the air. All those seconds that you are talking about of walking across the bridge are irrelevant in this case.  After Meetra realizes Nihilus is way more powerful than she thought, Nihilus attempts to drain her after a few seconds. So, yes, she was only exposed to Nihilus for a few seconds. So it’s not possible to accurately tell how powerful one is in the Force in a few seconds. In addition, Nihilus was starved from his trip to Telos before any of this. Prime Nihilus would be after appeasing his hunger from draining a planet. Not this.

 

Standing to Emperor Vititate

Your take on this fight is completely out of context. Vitiate solidly dominated this fight. Firstly, you said:

“ The definition of “in a heap” reads, “(of a person) with the body completely limp”, “if you fall or lie in a heap, you lie without moving after you have fallen”, If someone collapses in a heap, they fall heavily and untidily and do not move.” In short, Vitiate falls stunned, unable to move, were Revan in closer proximity to Vitiate, this would have been the end of the duel in most other cases.”

If Vitiate and Revan were in closer proximity, Vitiate would not be trying to crush Revan’s will, which is what caused Vitiate to ‘land in a heap’. He would be attacking aggressively.

Then you said:

 “Following this, Revan deflects four lightning bolts, and finally, Vitiate charges a lightning storm in a way Revan describes as similar to how Darth Nyriss did earlier in the book, Revan is ultimately overpowered by this, but is ready to get back up and keep fighting mere moments later”

Again, you are just seeing things the way you like them to be and completely taking things out of context. As has been mentioned by @S_W_LeGenD:

“The Sith Emperor had defeated Revan (Reborn) in that fight. T3-M4 prevented Revan from being COOKED alive by bathing Tenebrae with fire who then had to release Revan at this point and divert his attention towards absorbing the fire and destroying the droid in return. Revan was lying on the ground burned yet alive but was not in the position to do anything. Then Meetra Surik intervened and diverted Tenebrae's attention once more. Therefore, both T3-M4 and Meetra Surik deserve the credit for giving Revan ample opportunity to recover from his injuries and get back to his feet.”

He didn’t ‘keep fighting mere moments later’. Meetra and T3-M4 both had to intervene. Revan has already lost the fight here and was completely dominated by Vitiate at this point and had it not been for Meetra/T3-M4 this fight would have ended right here. The fight was clearly solidly dominated by Vitiate when he started attacking aggressively instead of trying to crush Revan’s will. It was not a close fight. It is also clearly stated that the Emperor would have won regardless. Also, Revan would have been amplified by the dark side Nexus as well.

When Kreia mentions:

“I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith. He is already more of a force than a living thing, a hole in the Force that threatens to draw everything into it. “

It is clear that she is uncertain how powerful Nihilus currently is. She thinks he is close to their level but is unsure of whether he is at their level, slightly below, slightly above. Her uncertainty is a clear indication that she does not know where Nihilus’s power stands relative to the ancients. Kreia also mentions:

“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."

―Darth Traya (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic: The Sith Lords)

As to my knowledge, she has not said that about any of the ancient Sith.



Finally, you can’t argue that Revan is superior to Nihilus based on Vitiate when Vitiate himself is solidly and clearly above Revan. As for SOR Revan, it is clearly stated (as to my knowledge) that he is no match to the Emperor. As a matter of fact, novel Vitiate is arguably more powerful than SOR Revan. So I don’t get where you are going with this argument.

Azronger wrote:@Darth Nihilus The very reason he's banned in the tournament is because he's unquantifiable. We have no way to ascertain the extent of the amp he gets from being in the vicinity of other powerful Force-users. At least I can't think of a way.

@Azronger

I guess a reasonable way to quantify this is as follows:

If Nihilus and his opponent are on a similar/close level of raw Force power, then we could reasonably assume the edge in Force power to Nihilus considering his amp. If Nihilus is against someone vastly superior to him in Force power , then we could assume that Nihilus will be inferior in Force power despite this amp. If Nihilus is superior in Force power than his opponent... well no need to explain that I guess.

Based on these fairly reasonable assumptions, (I think) we would be able to give some extent of reasonable quantifiability to Nihilus.

the problem starts too when someone is confirmed to be inmune to force drain (anakin and dooku) my only problem for nihilus have been that he can kill most high tiers but against this particular set of force users who have a counter for that ability its becomes debatable who wins or not 

besides that good blog :>

@Darth Nihilus But why would we assume those things though?

The lord of hunger wrote:the problem starts too when someone is confirmed to be inmune to force drain (anakin and dooku) my only problem for nihilus have been that he can kill most high tiers but against this particular set of force users who have a counter for that ability its becomes debatable who wins or not 

besides that good blog

@The lord of hunger

From what I am aware, it was only Anakin who could resist the Dark Reaper and it was only for a short period of time. Also if he got too close he would die instantly. However, I am not that knowledgeable on that part and so maybe you could elaborate/correct me on this (quotes would also be nice just to get some context) .

Will make another response in the next couple days sometime.

Azronger wrote:@Darth Nihilus But why would we assume those things though?

@Azronger

If Nihilus and his rival are just as powerful(or very close) without any amps, then Nihilus's amp would give him the edge in Force power.

Another thing that can be done to overcome this is to specify the rules of this 'amp' at VS battles or tournaments. For example, the thread maker can say that the amp is not to be taken into consideration due to its ambiguity or give rules to its assumed magnitude. That's better than taking Nihilus completely off tournaments.

The lord of hunger wrote:the problem starts too when someone is confirmed to be inmune to force drain (anakin and dooku) my only problem for nihilus have been that he can kill most high tiers but against this particular set of force users who have a counter for that ability its becomes debatable who wins or not 

besides that good blog

Actually both Anakin Skywalker and Count Dooku were not exactly 'immune' to Force Drain and its derivatives. Anakin learned a technique (via Ulic Qel-Droma) to counter these powers to an extent.

For instance, Anakin knows how to contain a blast of Force Lightning with a lightsaber, but if it comes from Palpatine then Anakin would be in significant trouble.

"If Dooku restores the Dark Reaper, it will mean the end of the Republic." - Mace Windu

"Stop him we must." - Yoda

Later;

"You have passed the tests young Jedi. Truly, you are gifted in the ways of the Force." - Ulic Qel-Droma

"Yes, I can teach you to harness the power of the Force around you, making you immune to the Dark Reaper's effects for a short time." - Ulic Qel-Droma



Anakin eventually approach the position of the Dark Reaper but uses a main battle tank to destroy it, as fast as he could.

---

Darth Nihilus consumed over a 100 Jedi on Katarr including Jedi Master Vandar Tokare who was very powerful in the ways of the Force (Yoda species). In fact, I would say that Master Vandar was like 'second-to-none' in his time. One photo show him creating a dust storm while levitating in the air; something which WE do not see happen very often. He was a master of numerous powers by the way.

I do not say that Darth Nihilus can simply kill 'any' being who appeared in history, but the pool of such beings is small. Those who could cheat death...

actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that. We were more about Anakin/Dooku's 'immunity' from Force drain.

Darth Nihilus wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that. We were more about Anakin/Dooku's 'immunity' from Force drain.

they have it in the same way unless im missing something about how dooku get it but anakin sure have it

Haven't forgotten about this, will write up my response soon, just been busy the last couple days.

The lord of hunger wrote:

Darth Nihilus wrote:

The lord of hunger wrote:actually the dark reaper can be directly compared to nihilus: 

I don't think anyone was arguing against that. We were more about Anakin/Dooku's 'immunity' from Force drain.

they have it in the same way unless im missing something about how dooku get it but anakin sure have it

Their point was that the "Immunity" is for a very short duration only, not something that'll block off Nihilus's drain permanently