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TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 3 Empty Re: The PT apprentice uprising

on June 2nd 2020, 1:29 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
"To begin with, Anakin and Obi-Wan did well, pushing Dooku back and destroying the B2 droids. Realizing that each Jedi was a threat on their own, Dooku abruptly switched tactics. He lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage." -- The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 32  

Yeah this quote is fake lol

Plus the novel line edited by Lucas portrays it differently.
Meatpants
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on June 3rd 2020, 4:18 am
@Trayus

I'm not gonna delve into semantics with you, it's just a waste of time since you're committing a double standard. What standard are we using exactly? You say Vader ~ Dooku ~ Maul per Lucas, they are comparable in power. Yet on the converse, you're invoking the Resurrection comic duel where Vader gets beaten by Maul in sabers, and wins via a cheapshot. Even if it is ANH Vader, and not ROTJ Vader, are you arguing that Vader goes from ~/< TPM Maul level power to ~ SOD Maul or Dooku level power from his growth? That power gap is insanely high. It also calls into question all the sources stating Luke and Vader are equally powerful in ROTJ. Which way is it? If Vader is getting beat by TPM Maul, his growth to ESB doesn't justify surmounting a ragdoll tier gap, unless you think Lucas is arguing the three are comparable in a very loose sense, at which point the natural question is how exactly do you quantify that? If the comparability spans across ragdoll tier gaps, then what point is the comparison?

Which way is it?

Meatpants
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on June 3rd 2020, 8:04 am
@LOTL wrote:MP, why the change of opinion on Obi Wan being actually hindered by rage?

A lot of quotes say it's the case. Kenobi can't operate properly when clouded by anger.
Meatpants
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on June 3rd 2020, 9:08 am
Gonna continue on the Resurrection points though;

@Trayus Marauder wrote:This attempt to establish Kenobi as being better via direct comparison doesn't necessarily work. To put this simply, Kenobi's opening was primarily due to the element of surprise. In the case of Resurrection, Maul had seen this move done before and so he took it in his stride and proceeded with the duel by changing his stance right away.

Maul doesn't look surprised here?

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 3 1110

Only difference being, Kenobi is quick enough to take advantage, Vader isn't. Doesn't help that Vader gets stomped immediately after this either.

--- --- ---

@Trayus Marauder wrote:I don't really see how this proves any point. Vader reacted by tanking the hit and proceeding with the fight while Kenobi flipped and continued.

It's showing that Kenobi is fast enough to make up for getting kicked, Vader isn't.

--- --- ---

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Also, sources for Maul feeding and growing stronger as well as Kenobi being hindered?

MAUL

Star Wars: Episode I Adventures wrote:"I gave into my anger, Master. I would do anything to destroy the dark warrior... and he used it against me."

---

Starwars.com - Darth Maul Databank (Old) wrote:Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; using the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit.

---

Star Wars: The Complete Encylopedia: Darth Maul wrote:Kenobi, enraged, attacked Maul. This barrage was deflected by Maul, who used Obi-Wan's touching of the dark side as a conduit for a Force attack; with the Force, Maul pushed Obi-Wan into a deep mining pit.

---

Star Wars: Jedi vs Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:“When the last laser door lifted, I gave in to my anger as I charged the dark warrior. I absolutely wanted to destroy him. He used my anger against me, actually fed off my fury, gaining strength as I exhausted my own. I lost my lightsaber and he had me.”

---

KENOBI

There's a bunch of examples pre and post TPM where Kenobi's rage just hinders him massively. See no reason why it wouldn't here either.

Star Wars: Darth Maul: Sith Apprentice wrote:Obi-Wan must now battle Maul, alone. But first, the young Padawan needs to control his feelings of anger and grief. He must gain strength and courage from the light side of the Force.

---

Star Wars: Sith Wars wrote:Obi-Wan Kenobi tried to use his grief at the loss of his master, Qui-Gon Jinn, to fuel his own attack against the Sith. However, it is not the Jedi way to act on emotions or to seek revenge. This causes Jedi to lose their focus, which can have fatal consequences in battle. Obi-Wan's anger led him to loose his cool as he launched a vicious lightsaber assault against Darth Maul. This Sith took advantage of Obi-Wan's unfocused rage, using the Force to throw him over an abyss.

---

Star Wars: The Power of Myth wrote:Obi-Wan is an exceptional lightsaber duelist and a formidable opponent. Darth Maul fights with inhuman intensity, fueled by the energy of the dark side of the Force. To defeat the hateful Sith Apprentice, Obi-Wan needs a centered awareness, cool concentration and deadly aim.

---

So there you go. Kenobi only wins once he listens to the living Force and executes his attack calmly, without thought, just trusting in the Force. The pissed off Obi-Wan that bumrushes Maul and gives Maul something to feed off and grow stronger isn't Obi-Wan at his best.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:This shows that Vader possesses the kinetic force to overpower Maul in a saberlock and it also shows that he is able to create enough breathing room to exploit the force to a certain extent.

How does he overpower Maul? All he does is use the Force to cause the dead stormtrooper to fire at Maul. Maul easily swats the bullets aside and casts the dead bodies off the ledge.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Maul notes that Vader is capable of standing his ground and then proceeds to cheapshot him by destroying the floor. On the other hand, Maul is capable of winning against Kenobi via a simple case of TK exploitation.

Cheapshot? You mean Maul cutting the wires of the bridge right in front of Vader?

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Here the prophets note that they are very evenly matched.

No... they say Maul and Vader are more evenly matched than they expected.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Kenobi certainly can't mirror this claim given he only held his own for a short period and was then dominated by telekinesis.

A hindered Kenobi contends with Maul longer than Qui-Gon did and matches his TK. Not seeing the bit where Vader performs better.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:While he did not directly beat her, the main example would be Shaak Ti. She can be used given that Vader was able to match Galen until his mindset shift. Keep in mind, the version of Galen that Vader faced is far superior to the version that faced Ti on Felucia. Considering Ti has feats such as being able to casually deflect Galen's lightning at the time, being able to use a TK attack fast enough to catch Grievous off guard as well as her battle against a horde of magnaguards, I daresay she's more impressive than the no-name Jedi that these other people have tried to use.

What's to say she didn't decline? Even then, don't see how those feats are particularly impressive regardless.
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

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on June 3rd 2020, 11:35 am
@Meatpants

@Meatpants wrote:I'm not gonna delve into semantics with you, it's just a waste of time since you're committing a double standard. What standard are we using exactly? You say Vader ~ Dooku ~ Maul per Lucas, they are comparable in power. Yet on the converse, you're invoking the Resurrection comic duel where Vader gets beaten by Maul in sabers, and wins via a cheapshot. Even if it is ANH Vader, and not ROTJ Vader, are you arguing that Vader goes from ~/< TPM Maul level power to ~ SOD Maul or Dooku level power from his growth? That power gap is insanely high. It also calls into question all the sources stating Luke and Vader are equally powerful in ROTJ. Which way is it? If Vader is getting beat by TPM Maul, his growth to ESB doesn't justify surmounting a ragdoll tier gap, unless you think Lucas is arguing the three are comparable in a very loose sense, at which point the natural question is how exactly do you quantify that? If the comparability spans across ragdoll tier gaps, then what point is the comparison?

Which way is it?

First off, kinda ironic how you say I'm using a double standard when you're the one who attempts to judge my use of quote interpretation when you do the same thing and try to push your interpretation as fact. Also, I do enjoy you say you won't argue semantics yet you continue to do so later. 

So Vader exploiting his durability is a cheapshot? Considering Maul employed a cheapshot as well, that's not really a point that hurts Vader. 

Note that after that fight, Vader went through multiple growth periods. From ANH to ESB and then from ESB to RotJ. So the idea of Vader's massive growth certainly isn't out of the question:

Insider 62 wrote:In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers.

Return of the Jedi wrote:His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor.

Luke and Vader being equal isn't an issue at all. It simply suggests that Luke is within that tier as well. Given Luke's insane growth rate via Skywalker genes, that also isn't out of the question.

To summarise, I've been arguing from the start that Vader/Dooku/Maul are comparable but not necessarily equal. And all that I've presented so far has been in support of that argument. 

Now onto the counters for your second post:

@Meatpants wrote:Maul doesn't look surprised here?

You clearly didn't read my argument here. I made a point of Maul being shocked by the break in TPM and him not being shocked in Resurrection given he had seen the move before. 

@Meatpants wrote:It's showing that Kenobi is fast enough to make up for getting kicked, Vader isn't.

It really doesn't. As I've noted, Vader's style is tanking hits, not reacting with acrobatics. Given Vader's higher tanking capacity, he could take the kick without any major impact. 


Now I'll address the quotes you offered as evidence that I requested:

Maul:

Quote 1- This simply shows Maul using his anger. No explicit buff is established.
Quote 2- This only establishes that Maul used anger for the one force attack. Not a consistent buff.
Quote 3- Same as quote 2
Quote 4- This quote is from a 1st person perspective so from Kenobi's POV, it certainly could have seemed as if Maul was growing in power as time went on. More likely, Kenobi was finding the fight harder the more he lost energy which is understandable given he basically put it all into a single assault out of rage 

Kenobi:

These quotes are contradicted by this quote taken from the novelisation:

The Phantom Menace novel wrote:The Sith Lord was borne backward by the Jedi Knight's initial rush, caught off guard by the other's wild assault, and pressed all the way back to the far wall of the melting pit. There he struggled to keep the young Jedi at bay, trying to open enough space between them to defend himself.

Now let's compare this to Kenobi before he went into the "hindered" period and how he performed against Maul:



0:26- Kenobi is kicked aside while also dealing with Jinn
1:01- Again, Kenobi is kicked aside while Maul is dealing with Jinn

You'll also notice that in the 2v1, Maul was able to deal with both. So one could actually argue that Kenobi's advantage began when he was enraged. Granted this boost was short given how much energy Kenobi burned through but his performance while enraged was undeniably better. 

Now for the other points you made:

@Meatpants wrote:How does he overpower Maul? All he does is use the Force to cause the dead stormtrooper to fire at Maul. Maul easily swats the bullets aside and casts the dead bodies off the ledge.

Note in the first panel of the screenshot I provided, Vader pushes Maul backwards post saber lock.

@Meatpants wrote:Cheapshot? You mean Maul cutting the wires of the bridge right in front of Vader?

So breaking the dueling environment isn't cheap yet exploiting one of your best combat assets is? Forgive me, but that doesn't make too much sense.

@Meatpants wrote:No... they say Maul and Vader are more evenly matched than they expected.

More evenly matched and evenly matched is pretty much the same thing. Again, coming from the guy who didn't want to argue semantics. In either case, Maul and Vader being comparable here is clear. 

@Meatpants wrote:A hindered Kenobi contends with Maul longer than Qui-Gon did and matches his TK. Not seeing the bit where Vader performs better.

Hindered is debatable and where does Kenobi match his telekinesis? Given that Maul wasn't able to outright dispose of Vader via TK like he did with Kenobi, I'd say that is more impressive. Given Vader undeniably holds more rage than Kenobi, Maul would have theoretically found it easier to use TK on Vader if we are to believe your quote of Maul using Kenobi's rage for a force attack. Not to mention that the duel was longer and Maul needed to shift forms and change battlefield multiple times to gain advantage. 

@Meatpants wrote:What's to say she didn't decline? Even then, don't see how those feats are particularly impressive regardless.

Ti's decline is a baseless assumption, especially given that she actively practiced in her training of Maris Brood as well as her efforts to shift Felucia to the light side. As for how the feats I mentioned are impressive:

-Galen's lightning was capable of powering a corvette that would have taken him hours to walk around on foot. It's also potent enough to kill rancors. 

-Considering Grievous had the speed to keep up with RotS Kenobi and Windu, being able to catch that kind of speed off guard is impressive.

-Considering one magnaguard could keep RotS Kenobi occupied for a period of time, Ti defeating a horde while already having endured guards, running around Coruscant and Grievous spars is pretty impressive.
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LOTL

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on June 3rd 2020, 11:38 am
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Maul's telekinesis is only capable of pushing Obi Wan when he is caught off guard which really is made clear across many sources 

Normally, they stalemate when Obi Wan is hindered, hence, definitely, Obi Wan is in his range when you have telekinesis as the factor
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LOTL

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on June 3rd 2020, 11:43 am
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You'll also notice that in the 2v1, Maul was able to deal with both. So one could actually argue that Kenobi's advantage began when he was enraged. Granted this boost was short given how much energy Kenobi burned through but his performance while enraged was undeniably better. 

This is actually wrong. He is more aggressive which helps him, yeah, but his connection to the force is almost certainly lesser

I have been proposing this argument for a very long time. Nice to see it has gotten popular among people. There are many more quotes that portray him as hindered, along other ones that implicitly imply it so that argument is correct, at least, partially
Meatpants
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on June 3rd 2020, 11:49 am
@LOTL wrote:Maul's telekinesis is only capable of pushing Obi Wan when he is caught off guard which really is made clear across many sources 

Normally, they stalemate when Obi Wan is hindered, hence, definitely, Obi Wan is in his range when you have telekinesis as the factor

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 3 1289255181

@LOTL wrote:This is actually wrong. He is more aggressive which helps him, yeah, but his connection to the force is almost certainly lesser

I have been proposing this argument for a very long time. Nice to see it has gotten popular among people. There are many more quotes that portray him as hindered, along other ones that implicitly imply it so that argument is correct, at least, partially

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 3 1289255181

Trayus Marauder
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on June 3rd 2020, 11:54 am
@LOTL wrote:
You'll also notice that in the 2v1, Maul was able to deal with both. So one could actually argue that Kenobi's advantage began when he was enraged. Granted this boost was short given how much energy Kenobi burned through but his performance while enraged was undeniably better. 

This is actually wrong. He is more aggressive which helps him, yeah, but his connection to the force is almost certainly lesser

I have been proposing this argument for a very long time. Nice to see it has gotten popular among people. There are many more quotes that portray him as hindered, along other ones that implicitly imply it so that argument is correct, at least, partially

Source for his force connection being less? Also, even if we were to assume that's true, it still doesn't change the fact that Kenobi's rage state was performing better vs Maul when compared with non-rage. The quotes that propose he is hindered are pretty much overruled when you perform a direct comparison with the movie duel. It's illogical to think that the version of Kenobi that got kicked aside multiple times is better than the version that Maul struggled against for a period of time. 

I mean, this wouldn't exactly be the first time that sources have proven themselves to be overruled or incorrect.

As for your claims about Maul's TK vs Kenobi, Maul has been capable of ragdolling later versions of Kenobi as seen on Florrum as well as in this image:

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 3 4253755-forcechokeobi-wan
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LOTL

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on June 3rd 2020, 12:00 pm
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To support MP's points about Obi Wan being hindered, here are many more quotes on it:


But as long as he did not attack in anger, the Force remained strong with him.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Rising Force


Obi-Wan’s anger, his impatience, had been his downfall often enough in the past. Bruck hoped to fill his mind with rage and despair so that he would not be open to the Force.

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Rising Force


His mind had been too clouded by anger. He needed to get clear. It was their only hope. He drew on the living Force to guide him. 

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Dark Rival


Boiling anger blurred his vision. He hated Bruck as he had hated no living creature. Anger drove out the Force completely, leaving him in a vacuum that he filled with his rage. 

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Captive Temple


Frustration and irritation surged inside him, driving out his connection to the Force. 

Credit: Jedi Apprentice-The Fight for Truth

Obi Wan's anger has always hindered him. 

More quotes on TPM:


I gave in to my anger, Master. 
.... 
And almost defeated you your anger did. 

Credit: Episode 1-Obi Wan Kenobi


The battle wore on, and for a time it was fought evenly. But Darth Maul was the stronger of the two and was driven by a frenzy that surpassed even the frantic determination that fueled Obi-Wan. Eventually, the Sith Lord began to wear the young Jedi down. Bit by bit, he pressed him back, carrying the attack to him, looking to catch him off guard. Obi-Wan could sense his body weakening, and his fear of what it would mean if he, too, were to fall, began to grow. 

Never! he swore furiously. 

Qui-Gon's words came back to him. Don't center on your fears. Concentrate on the here and now. He struggled to do so, to contain the emotions warring within and bearing him down. Be mindful of the living Force, my young Padawan. Be strong. 

Credit: The Phantom Menace

The TPM novel makes it clear that his emotions are only hindering him, nothing else. 

Obi Wan being kicked twice doesn't mean anything. Qui Gon was kicked once, and thrown once. In fact, on open ground, where Obi Wan's acrobatic style will function at optimum, he visibly performs better than Qui Gon. Obi Wan's style is a lot more acrobatic than Qui Gon's meaning, the limitations of his style will really hamper him more than it will Qui Gon hence, him being kicked off in a very constrained area is not a limitation on his part, other than inexperience
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LOTL

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on June 3rd 2020, 12:09 pm
In Sith Hunters Obi Wan is merely a few days after his S4 battle with Maul, and Filoni has pretty much told in atleast 2 interviews that Obi Wan is not emotionally ready to fight Maul till Revival. This is clear when you consider that in SH he is screaming at Maul and running at him, begging to take him on. Not exactly the best parameter of a stable Master of the force. 

The Florrum ragdolling repeatedly has been argued to be only the cases that Maul either grips him when Obi Wan's back is turned, or when it is only a force push. Obi Wan force pushes Maul and Savage combined, in the novel. Can you then put him above the brothers together? In any case, extensive arguments have been made on it
O-Siri
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on June 3rd 2020, 5:00 pm
Even long before I got into the EU I always saw Kenobi as both empowered and hindered. For someone like Anakin anger “gives you focus makes you stronger.” Same applies to Maul. A novice like Kenobi simply can’t beat someone like Maul with blind fury. That’s his turf. Going back to Sidious’s mussing a dark sider like Maul finds focus from this sort of fighting unlike Obi-Wan which only gives him an adrenaline rush at the cost of his focus. Whether Lucas saw the connection or not it’s almost an internal conflict personified in physical form with Maul representing the dark side within himself. Only by centering himself could he defeat Maul and the anger within him. And people say the PT duels are lacking in depth and internal conflict.
SithSauce
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on June 3rd 2020, 5:25 pm
@O-Siri wrote:Even long before I got into the EU I always saw Kenobi as both empowered and hindered. For someone like Anakin anger “gives you focus makes you stronger.” Same applies to Maul. A novice like Kenobi simply can’t beat someone like Maul with blind fury. That’s his turf. Going back to Sidious’s mussing a dark sider like Maul finds focus from this sort of fighting unlike Obi-Wan which only gives him an adrenaline rush at the cost of his focus. Whether Lucas saw the connection or not it’s almost an internal conflict personified in physical form with Maul representing the dark side within himself. Only by centering himself could he defeat Maul and the anger within him. And people say the PT duels are lacking in depth and internal conflict.

@O-Siri
https://youtu.be/xIN_Xo_nK4E
This video explains it well. Whatever amount of depth or emotion Lucas was trying to convey in the Duel of the Fates matters not if the film itself doesn't showcase this well. As it stands the Duels of the Fates stands as a cool flashy action scene with great choreography but lacks the emotional depth that any of the OT films had in their saber duels. And that's mainly because the audience isn't invested in any of these characters because they don't know them very well. I mean maybe Obi Wan but that's largely do to him being a pre existing character.
SithSauce
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on June 3rd 2020, 5:29 pm
Not saying this is my opinion as well BTW but its an opinion I can understand from "a certain point of view"
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

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on June 7th 2020, 6:20 am
@LOTL

I'll just quickly counter the arguments you have put forward.


1. The quotes from TPM that you try to use as justification for Kenobi being hindered simply refer to Kenobi losing to his anger given that his judgment was clouded and he was putting all of his efforts into a vicious assault. They do not explicitly say that he was nerfed. Furthermore, the very idea he was nerfed is contradicted by G canon where Kenobi shows an objectively better performance in the 1v1 section of the duel than he did in the 2v1. 

2. You note that Kenobi was hindered due to the environment but one could also argue that Maul was given that he had far less room to utilise his dual bladed saber. Cramped quarters didn't suit either duelist. Also, if Kenobi's disadvantage was as significant as you claim then how did Kenobi push back Maul while "hindered"? Surely a hindrance, as well as a field disadvantage, would make him perform worse than before. 

3. You totally misinterpreted Sith Hunters. Kenobi was charging at Maul in an effort to distract him so that Maul would release his hostage and engage with Kenobi instead. This was not a display of emotional instability.

4. The second ragdoll on Florrum is far more than "only a force push". It blasted Kenobi and incapacitated him in one shot despite the fact that Kenobi was ready to engage Maul. So while you can argue that Kenobi's defences were down in the case of the first ragdoll, that's certainly not an argument you can use for the second.
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