Suspect Insight Forums
We've moved to Discord! Join us here: https://discord.gg/b6fuSxa3uD
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 8th 2021, 10:28 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Wpw11
FREEDON NADD UPRISING! ULIC QEL-DROMA (Vaelias) -VS- TUF! JACEN SOLO (RNGesus4)
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) InShot_20210708_112033829

Character Constraints

A Opener -> 3,500K
B Opener -> 4,125K
A Response1 -> 4,725K
B Response1 -> 5,375K
A Response2 -> 6,000K
B Response2 -> 5,375K
A Response3 -> 4,750K
B Response3 -> 4,125K
A Conclusion -> 2,250K
B Conclusion -> 2,250K

(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 8th 2021, 1:48 pm
looks good. stomp tho cough
Vaelias
Vaelias

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 12th 2021, 10:27 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

THE POWER OF JEDI KNIGHT ULIC QEL DROMA


Ulic Qel Droma one shots Jacen Solo
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 56541512
Avast...

Warb Nulls armor was strongly imbued with sorcery from an ancient 'Sith Tome'
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Null_a10
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) C0abbb10
Null mastered the Dark Side which he combined with his martial prowess
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) C81eee10

Null possesses all the memories of Nadd and Adas through his armor granting him incredible lightsaber prowess and dark side knowledge
- Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.
And Nadd possesses training and skills that took people years to attain including Adas' vast mastery of combat
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 49401110
 
Evil Never Dies: The Sith Dynasties wrote:Ruling nearly 3,000 years before the rise of the Galactic Republic, King Adas was a massive, regal being encased in majestic ebon warrior armor. Raised from his youth as a chosen being due to the charcoal pigment of his skin, Adas demonstrated great intelligence, fighting prowess, and a tremendous aptitude for Sith magic. With his alchemically forged battle-ax, Adas led the bloody unification of Korriban's disparate nations and became its undisputed world ruler. The Sith people came to believe that King Adas was immortal and that his reign would be eternal.

And, everything of Sadow's 
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 7cebfd10
Null's armor was discovered thousands of years later in 19BBY by Telloti, a failed Jedi Youngling, who was literally too weak to become a Padawan 

Star Wars Insider 147 - Short Story Hammer wrote:“Why shouldn't he take the armor? It had power. Real power. He could feel the Force like never “before.

even the presence of Null's armour and Lightsaber oozed the force like Telloti had never felt
- Hammer wrote:"As soon as his fingertips touched [Warb Null’s lightsaber] it, a wave of cold air blew over him, through his clothes, his skin, through his very soul. He shivered."

The Armour imbued Teloti like it did Null
- Hammer wrote:"When Telloti opened his eyes again, the helmet was in his hands, poised over his head, its dark iron hood casting a shadow over his blinking eyes. Inside, secret glyphs glowed with orange light, waiting to brand his cheeks, imbue him with their power."

- Hammer wrote:Master Ryelli stood in the door in his brown robes. His lightsaber hummed in his malformed hand. “Take that off, Telloti,” Ryelli urged, a tremor of something in his voice. Fear? It excited him to think a Jedi Master was afraid of him.
“It’s of the Sith. This place… it’s a tomb of some kind. That armor.. it’s infected with the dark side of the Force.”
The dark side? With this kind of power, he could be a hammer to crush the dark side. What did Ryelli know? He had no insight at all. Why shouldn’t he take this armor for himself? It had power in it. Real power. He could feel the Force like never before. With it, he could be a warrior. He could join the war, cut his way through legions of battle droids and take the Count of Serenno’s head, be the hero the Republic needed.

With the power of the armor Teloti stomps an all out Master Ryelli

- Hammer wrote:The armor was like a web of conduits. It drew the Force into him. Telloti felt it surging through his blood vessels, contracting muscles, swinging his arms up to defend the downward stroke of Ryelli’s lightsaber almost before Telloti could even think it. He was fast. So fast. And strong. He drove Ryelli back with shuddering blows. the emerald lightsabers flashed and buzzed as they clashed and were batted aside. inadvertently hewing chucks of glowing stone from the walls.
Telloti grinned ecstatically behind his grim metal face. His heart thundered.
Ryelli seemed so small now. Was he himself larger? He felt immense. Ryelli’s blade skimmed his shoulder, sending sparks cascading into the air. He laughed. He hadn’t even felt it. He forced Ryelli out into the corridor, and there locked blades with the Jedi Master. Master. What right did he have to that title? This squinting bookworm? This ditch digger? He looked for greatness in small, broken things, and failed to recognize it when it towered over him.
- Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith.
His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,
Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.
The extra-long green blade of the ancient lightsaber retracted into the hilt. In the same instant, the butt sprang open like the maw of a sarlacc, revealing a hidden, secondary emitter. A blade of red energy erupted from it, the ingenious mechanism within realigning and refocusing the power in a nanosecond.
Without the resistance of the green blade,
Ryelli stumbled forward, dangerously off balance. Telloti shifted his grip and flipped the new red blade over, slicing neatly through the nape of Ryelli's neck. The Jedi Master tumbled to the floor.
Telloti straightened, listening to the sound of his own breathing, feeling his heart pounding deep behind the black shell of his breastplate.

This was only a fraction of the full potency of the Armour 

the armour was not even complete 
-Hammer wrote:There was a crooked molten scar across the neck, and the right arm was missing entirely from the elbow down.

And had lost potency for millennia 
Darth Bane: The Rule Of Two. wrote:They walked slowly along the length of the display cases, Zannah splitting her attention between Hetton's words and the intriguing array of Sith artifacts. She could still feel faint remnants of dark side energy clinging to them: fading memories of the incredible power they once contained.

if the Ancient Sith Dark Side imbued items only possess faint remnants (barely perceptible) of the power they once held, by 990BBY then by 39BBY, after a further 951 years the power Warb Nulls armor once held must be a miniscule fraction of what it once was, 951 further years of degradation from the 'faint remnants'

So the faint remnants of the faint remnants with missing pieces was still enough power to allow a youngling to stomp a Jedi Master

Amped Warb Null + Armour >>> Warb Null + Armour > Warb Nulls Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation > PT Jedi Master

Yet, Ulic quite literally oneshot blitzed Null baring the full potency of the armor
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 42508710

Ulic actually destroyed Warb Null 
- Tales of the Jedi Companion wrote:Fighting past a wall of dark force, Ulic manages to destroy Warb Null.

All while weakened by the 'immeasurable' dark side energies surrounding the area, All while Null is aided by said energies
Star Wars: Insider 27 wrote:The Naddists were aided immeasurably by the mystical up welling of the dark-side power of Freedon Nadd still prevalent throughout Onderon.
that was stronger than anything Arca Jeth had ever felt 
Arca Jeth, Tales of the Jedi Audio Drama wrote:"Dark Side energy, the strongest I've ever felt."

Prime FNU Ulic >> Hindered Ulic >>> Amped Warb Null + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour >> Warb Nulls Armour >>>> Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> PT Jedi Master

So Ulic is one-shotting a Dark Side Adept that scales vastly over a PT Jedi Master while Jacen, after all this growth 
Dark Nest: Joiner King wrote:Jaina could not argue. During Jacen's five-year journey, she had felt him growing steadily stronger in the Force-but also more distant and isolated, like a hermit retreating to his mountaintop. At times, he had seemed to vanish into the Force entirely, and at other times she had sworn he was floating just above her shoulder.
11 years after TUF, going all out, is near stalemated by Aurra Sing

Legacy of the Force: Tempest wrote:

Wait.
 
Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being.
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
.....
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. 

This is a post prime Aurra 
Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:
"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."
"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.

Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:Aurra Sing had been a ruthless killer of Jedi Knights during the Old Republic.

60 years earlier in more prime condition she is evenly matched by Aayla Secura
Aurra Sing: Databank wrote:The remaining Jedi, Aayla Secura, tracked down Aurra and confronted her. What followed was a fierce duel between the two women. The fight was nearly a draw, until Aayla goaded Aurra, piercing through her icy façade to describe the wounded, lonely, abandoned child within. Aurra attacked ferociously, but Aayla bested her.

Being a Jedi Knight, Aayla Secura is by default below Master Ryelli
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) A9f76b10
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknow10
So if a much more powerful iteration of Jacen is only just scraping by against a post prime Aurra, then a much weaker Jacen is not coming close to her, never mind a more capable iteration of Aurra who is stalemated by Jedi Knight Aayla who is not as powerful as esteemed Master Ryelli who is being stomped by a youngling drawing on faint remnants of faint remnants of Null's incomplete armor, which at full potency with the aid of 'immeasurable' dark side energies + a millennia of combat expertise, succumbed to the might of Ulic Qel Droma weakened by the immeasurable nexus

Prime FNU Ulic >> Nexus Hindered Ulic >>>(one shot gap) Nexus Amped Warb + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour > Warb's Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> (stomp gap) Ryelli >> Aayla  ~ 31 year old  Aurra Sing > 91 year old Post Prime Aurra ~ <40ABY Jacen >> 29ABY TUF Jacen

Kneel before the might of Ulic Qel Droma
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 13th 2021, 5:38 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
The Hero of the New Jedi Order decimates the Fallen Knight
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) D2c8i40-39faa81f-1ede-47f5-bddd-d95ae3135b1a



Jacen Solo is one of the strongest Jedi of the New Jedi Order. There are multiple sources that put him above all the other Jedi of the era:
What? he thought blankly. What? Dizzily, blurrily, he worked it out: that guy back there could use the Force--could use it as well as the most powerful of Jedi.

-Ganner Rhysode's thoughts (Traitor)

"Child, listen to me," she shouted to Allana. "Your father understood the beings who transformed this world. Long before you were born we were at war with them, but your father was a force for peace, and his powers were unmatched by those of any other Jedi. He wanted you to grow up in a galaxy free of war. He wanted to protect you at all costs. I want you to reach deep into yourself and find him. As painful as it is, you need to find your father. Stretch out with your feelings. Use the Force!"

-Millennium Falcon


Jacen is above Kyp Durron. As evidenced by the above quote as well as Jacen's superior performance against Vong Slayers. Let's compare their respective fights:
Kyp raced for the nearest one, catching the warrior across the chest with a powerful upswing of his blade. The Yuuzhan Vong growled and rolled, but his dark, unarmored flesh showed only a shallow bloodless furrow. Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

The serpentlike creature elongated and wrapped itself around the hilt of the lightsaber. But Kyp wasn't about to surrender his weapon. In a virtual tug-of-war with the creature, he spun and backflipped, but to little effect. At the same time, a second amphistaff lassoed him around the waist and arms and yanked him roughly to the ground. Han put three bolts into the second warrior, driving him two steps backward with each, but without killing him or persuading the amphistaff to loosen its constricting hold on Kyp. Han yelled for Wraw's help, but in a glance saw that the Bothan was trying desperately to keep the other pair of warriors from grabbing Page.

Without really thinking about it, Leia judged that Han and Kyp were in greater jeopardy. Holding her blade at her right hip and pointed slightly downward, she moved against the warrior whose amphistaff was flinging Kyp from side to side. Han felt rather than saw Leia race past him.

"Leia!" he screamed, firing constantly while he rushed to catch up with her.

A quartet of bolts holed the warrior Leia had targeted. But at once, the other warrior commanded his amphistaff to withdraw from the pommel of Kyp's lightsaber and fly toward Leia. Seeing what was coming, Han dived forward in a frantic attempt to place himself between Leia and the attenuating weapon. Leia watched in horror as the amphistaff struck Han solidly in the neck-and not merely with its rounded head. The jaws of the living weapon gaped, and it sank two long fangs into Han's flesh.

Han landed hard on his side, but quickly got to his knees. He managed to squeeze off three more bolts before the blaster slipped from his trembling hand. He slumped backward on his heels in shock, then tipped to one side, his body curling inward, with his shaking hands close to his chest. Kyp raced forward, only to be set upon by three of the warriors. Leia's mouth fell open in a silent scream.

-The Unifying Force
Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.
--
The short warrior hurried in, his weapon striking at Jacen like a serpent, then stiffening, jabbed him hard in the left forearm, as if to stake the arm to the floor. Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.
--
Jacen allowed it to coil around his body; then, as the warrior was reeling the weapon in, Jacen hurled his lightsaber deep into the slayer's armpit.

-The Unifying Force

Han, Leia, Kyp, and a couple other operatives failed to defeat 4 Slayers. And those 4 Slayers, along with their weapons were weakened greatly by Alpha Red. On the flip side, Jacen, Luke, and Jaina were able to kill 15 full power Slayers. (Jacen and Luke really. Jaina didn't really do anything.) Jacen managed to kill 5 of them. He performed way better than Kyp did. That, along with the quotes from Traitor and MF, solidifies Jacen's superiority over Kyp.


Kyp Durron, many years prior managed to kill a Leviathan whilst unarmed.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) KypKillsLeviathan

-Jedi Academy Leviathan


Leviathans are the children of Tilotny, a demigod. They're made even more powerful through Sith alchemy.

Tilotny’s brood came to be some of the most feared beings in the universe, the ravenous Leviathans, the blasphemous Silans, the ghoulish Barracles and Glooths, the fearsome Faroe and Apollyon, the predatory Schinga, the hideous Nharqis'Al, and others who retained the all-consuming fear and hatred for life bequeathed from their mother, so that they became receptacles of the dark side, drawing sustenance from the life-energies of the living. The Sith Lords would later augment these creatures, making them even more powerful.

-Supernatural Encounters

They are the culmination of Sorzus Syn's creatures. They are the most powerful of her creatures. They were able to kill countless Jedi and splinter their barricade. They are nature advanced to perfection.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 039

-The Book of Sith

Exar Kun struggles with a Sith Wyrm (which are inferior to Leviathans), he is only able to beat it with the power of a Sith amulet.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) KunVBeast

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith


Exar around this point is an equal to Ulic.
As the Jedi departed, a stranger strode confidently into the halls of the Iron Citadel. Flanked by Massassi guards stood Exar Kun, former Jedi and now Sith initiate. As the Krath had been unraveling their plan of galactic conquest, Kun had followed his own path into the darkness. A path that brought him to the Sith world of Korriban, and the Sith stronghold on Yavin Four. Now, he sought out the only other Sith practitioner who could challenge him -- Ulic Qel Droma.

-Databank - Qel-Droma, Ulic
Among the Krath, Exar Kun came face to face with another fallen Jedi, whose strength matched his own - Ulic Qel-Droma.

- SWTOR - Timeline - The Exar Kun War

Ulic has grown since the Uprising. Along with that, he got more powerful when he turned to the dark side

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 8zvkE3N8wORZitdmK2ia0UUj6utAfD3pBoJ7LDeOdPD6_vcKEsQ0kPzkvAj5E6ll54iTIaD06-V7ZE2ipTcqywqAStalMOINxoQz

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith

(Chain for this is at the end. Stay tuned.)



Now to address some of your points:


@Vaelias wrote:Null's armor was discovered thousands of years later in 19BBY by Telloti, a failed Jedi Youngling, who was literally too weak to become a Padawan


Not at all. Telloti was merely just not chosen. It wasn't because he was weak. Hell... he beat the person who was chosen over him. Among others. He was average to above average in power and skill:
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer


@Vaelias wrote:With the power of the armor Teloti stomps an all out Master Ryelli

NO. HE. DID. NOT. It was not even close to an all out stomp. In fact.... Ryelli forced him back. Telloti only won through Null's lightsaber's secret blade. He would have died were it not for that. He only won because of that trick. Ryelli is outright stated to be stronger.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer


@Vaelias wrote:the armour was not even complete


The armor was only missing the right arm.


@Vaelias wrote:And had lost potency for millennia
--
if the Ancient Sith Dark Side imbued items only possess faint remnants (barely perceptible) of the power they once held, by 990BBY then by 39BBY, after a further 951 years the power Warb Nulls armor once held must be a miniscule fraction of what it once was, 951 further years of degradation from the 'faint remnants'
So the faint remnants of the faint remnants with missing pieces was still enough power to allow a youngling to stomp a Jedi Master

Wrong. Objects touched by alchemical science don't degrade. As shown by The Book of Sith. Even if they did, there is no evidence that Null's armor degraded by that much. Plus one thing to understand is that the quote in the Bane Trilogy can be referring to the artifacts in conjunction with its user when it says "fading memories of the incredible power they once contained." So no. Null's armor isn't a shadow of its former self by any means.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-The Book of Sith


@Vaelias wrote:11 years after TUF, going all out, is near stalemated by Aurra Sing

Ah, the ever popular Aurra scaling. The entire passage you posted hardly helps you. It's the most circumstantial fight ever. He was not going all out with his power. He was trying to mentally dominate her to keep the damage around them minimal. And his struggle to do so was not entirely due to her power. We know that some characters have a resistance to persuasion. Even non force sensitives:

This fight does little for your case.


@Vaelias wrote:This is a post prime Aurra

The first quote you posted is purely from Han and Leia's perspective and they're talking about her reputation, not power. Also Aurra isn't human. Her species' life span is probably way longer than humans. There isn't much to say she's post prime.


@Vaelias wrote:60 years earlier in more prime condition she is evenly matched by Aayla Secura
--
Being a Jedi Knight, Aayla Secura is by default below Master Ryelli

Wrong. She was among the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis. And she's regarded as one of the greatest and strongest Jedi in the order. She is NOT below Ryelli. She may be around his tier or greater.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown-77

-Dark Horse
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown-153

-Fact File 102
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown-128
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown-106

-Insider 62


@Vaelias wrote:So if a much more powerful iteration of Jacen is only just scraping by against a post prime Aurra, then a much weaker Jacen is not coming close to her, never mind a more capable iteration of Aurra who is stalemated by Jedi Knight Aayla who is not as powerful as esteemed Master Ryelli who is being stomped by a youngling drawing on faint remnants of faint remnants of Null's incomplete armor, which at full potency with the aid of 'immeasurable' dark side energies + a millennia of combat expertise, succumbed to the might of Ulic Qel Droma weakened by the immeasurable nexus

Prime FNU Ulic >> Nexus Hindered Ulic >>>(one shot gap) Nexus Amped Warb + Armour >> Warb Null + Armour > Warb's Armour > Telloti with Warb Nulls broken Armour with 3,959 years of degradation >> (stomp gap) Ryelli >> Aayla  ~ 31 year old  Aurra Sing > 91 year old Post Prime Aurra ~ <40ABY Jacen >> 29ABY TUF Jacen

Here's a correction to your chain:

Telloti < < < Armored Telloti < ~ Ryelli
And here's the correct chain:

And as promised, here's the final, correct chain:

Jacen Solo > > NJO Kyp > > Leviathan Kyp > Leviathan > > Sith Wyrm > ~ DLOTS Exar ~ Dark Side Ulic > > Nadd Uprising Ulic


Characters: 3567


Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Three
Level Three

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 13th 2021, 6:05 pm
nice bro
Vaelias
Vaelias

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 19th 2021, 9:44 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

ALL HAIL THE FALLEN KNIGHT


I shall start by addressing your rebuttals and the move onto my own

RNG wrote:Not at all. Telloti was merely just not chosen. It wasn't because he was weak. Hell... he beat the person who was chosen over him. Among others. He was average to above average in power and skill:
The point here is that he was Youngling Level, and not chosen to be a Padawan, so yeh average or above average, but for a Youngling. furthermore Telloti is directly stated to have failed his Apprentice trial 
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Fail_t10


RNG wrote:NO. HE. DID. NOT. It was not even close to an all out stomp. In fact.... Ryelli forced him back. Telloti only won through Null's lightsaber's secret blade. He would have died were it not for that. He only won because of that trick. Ryelli is outright stated to be stronger.
Perhaps stomped was the wrong word, but Telloti was definitely in the dominant position the entire fight, first blocking Ryelli's blows easily and in an instant before he can even think about it, compared to Ryelli, he was so fast and so strong 

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Block_10

and forcing back Ryelli, controlling most of the fight
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Force_11

within the context of the quote that notes Ryelli as being stronger it is clear that it is in reference to his physical strength and not force power

Hammer wrote:Ryelli's blade angled ever closer, forcing the great two handed lightsaber of Warb Null down. Telloti's left knee buckled and clanged against the stone floor, the archeologist was stronger
The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage made further evident by the amount of times the armor is stressed to be super powerful, like nothing Telloti had ever felt which would include any Jedi Telloti had ever encountered anywhere, not just Ryelli 

Telloti spent some time with Master Piell
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image_13
A member of the Jedi high council, one of the greatest masters of the order
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) High_c11
for which Piell fought many battles

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) High_c10
despite this Telloti maintains that the miniscule amount of power remaining in Nulls armor is, in comparison, 'real power' and stronger than he has ever felt

so not only is the power greater than Master Ryelli, its more powerful than High Council Master Piell

indeed this is further demonstrated when Telloti demonstrates enough speed to swiftly evade a full strength strike from Ryelli, despite him having the dominant position
Hammer wrote:His bare thumb felt along the length of the two-handed hilt to a small toggle, and as Ryelli forced his superior position, bearing down with all his strength,

Telloti triggered it and sidestepped.
It was no trick, Malleus outperformed Ryelli except for a brief moment due to a physical strength edge

but lets say it that it is indeed talking about power, then this duel would seem more evenly matched, the armor is still more powerful than Council Master Piell, so that would just boost Ryelli to council master level, strengthening the case that he is undoubtedly more powerful than Aayla 

and we don't really need anything more than proximity for this scaling to work so either way this works in my favor 

Next...

RNG wrote:The armor was only missing the right arm.
and a massive gash on his neck 

Hammer wrote:There was a crooked molten scar across the neck, and the right arm was missing entirely from the elbow down.

-


RNG wrote:Wrong. Objects touched by alchemical science don't degrade. As shown by The Book of Sith
This quote you provided does not preclude the notion that imbued objects still decay, lets take a look at it...


Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Book_o10

Yes it will becomes force sensitive, forever retaining a mirror imprint of its forger, as the armor demonstrably does... 

Hammer wrote:Telloti knew the weapon in his hands. Somehow, he knew it. He had fashioned it. millennia ago. Or rather, the man in his vision, Shas Dovos, the man who became Warb Null, had, inspired by the dark teachings of Freedon Nadd and dread King Adas before him. He knew these things. He had their memories, their wisdom, the cunning of the Sith

all this means is that it will forever be imprinted with these traits, not that it will forever be as strong in the dark side, as I proved in my last post, Hettons collection in RoT is direct proof of this

Rule of Two wrote:She could still feel faint remnants of dark side energy clinging to them: fading memories of the incredible power they once contained.
And Null's armor has even more degradation than these artifacts that only possess 'fading memories of incredible power'

RNG wrote: Even if they did, there is no evidence that Null's armor degraded by that much. 
the default assumption is that Null's armor acts the same as any other imbued item, I don't need evidence for that

RNG wrote:Plus one thing to understand is that the quote in the Bane Trilogy can be referring to the artifacts in conjunction with its user when it says "fading memories of the incredible power they once contained."
Citation needed


RNG wrote:Ah, the ever popular Aurra scaling. The entire passage you posted hardly helps you. It's the most circumstantial fight ever. He was not going all out with his power. He was trying to mentally dominate her to keep the damage around them minimal. And his struggle to do so was not entirely due to her power. We know that some characters have a resistance to persuasion. Even non force sensitives

Yes and he Opened himself fully to the force and was using the power of his anger, fear and hatred and all his concentration in doing so, add to that Jacen had the element of surprise 
Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:Jacen spoke the word with his mind instead of his mouth. At the same time, he was expanding his Force presence into Sing's mind, opening himself fully to the Force and using its power to push himself deeper into her mind, to crush her own presence and force it deep down into the bottom of her being
 
"Wait," he repeated.
 
Sing fought back, trying to push him from her mind, but Jacen had taken her by surprise. He had the power of his anger and his fear and his hatred behind him, and she simply was not strong enough.
 
 
Sing stood with her back to Jacen, about five paces beyond the droid, on the other side of a smoldering couch. In one hand, she held her still-ignited fightsaber. In the other was a class-C thermal detonator with a disintegration radius large enough to kill herself, Jacen, Allana, and probably half the personnel on the decks directly above and below.
 
As Jacen started toward her, she looked over her shoulder with an expression in her pale eyes that seemed equal parts hatred and awe.
 
"Don't ever touch me like that again."
 
Jacen did not reply. Sing was still struggling to free herself of his domination, and all his concentration was focused on keeping the pressure on until he drew close enough to strike.
 
Sing flashed him a cold smile. "But then, I don't think you'll have the chance."
 
Her thumb twitched.
 
The activation light on the thermal detonator began to blink, and that was enough to shatter Jacen's concentration. He felt Sing slip free.
Given that Jacen had the element of surprise on Sing here and once in control needed to go all out and maintain his full concentration on her heavily suggests he would not be able to do this had he not caught her off guard, I might be able to jump out on a professional fighter and pin him down and keep him there, but I'm not going to be able to tap him on the shoulder and then take him down and keep him down easily, he was still holding her, but a simple lapse of his tense concentration and she was able to break the connection, this just goes to show the proximity between the two, ultimately he failed to crush her force presence despite his best efforts. and proximity is all we need for the scaling to work.


RNG wrote:The first quote you posted is purely from Han and Leia's perspective and they're talking about her reputation, not power. Also Aurra isn't human. Her species' life span is probably way longer than humans. There isn't much to say she's post prime.

Right so lets take a look at the evidence in more detail and dispel the silly notion that Aurra did not decline
Legacy of the Force Tempest wrote:
"I am curious about how you chose Aurra," Leia said. "She's hardly a well-known killer of Jedi anymore."
"And even if she was, this isn't the kind of job you'd look up an eighty-year-old woman for," Han pointed out.
 Aurra she will have been largely inactive in recent times and is hardly known anymore per Leia, even as early as 18BBY over 58 years prior to Tempest Aurra is stated to be declining due to this

Coruscant Nights wrote:After all, one did not secure the release from prison of one of the galaxy’s most feared and formidable bounty hunters in order to have floral arrangements designed. For almost as long as Aurra Sing could remember it had been the thrill of the hunt that had kept her alive, that had given her a reason to progress from one day to the next. It was only when she relied solely on her own skills, her superb reflexes and unique training, that she felt anything even approaching a level of personal comfort. She had relied on nothing else for so long …

--

As Sing dumped her own load of plates into another tube, she kept her senses on full alert. Her connection to the Force would warn her of any imminent assault, sometimes even before it was initiated. That, and her deadly reputation, had kept her alive all these months in this rancor pit. Both would continue to do so. Or so she thought … The attack, when it came, was thus doubly surprising—first that anyone would dare attack her at all, and second because the Force had not warned her of it. Fortunately, that enigmatic energy was not her only ally. Even though the misbegotten Jedi flooz Aayla Secura had cut the antenna of her biocomputer implant, it still was capable of sensing danger at close range. That was what warned her now, barely in time, of the Trandoshan with the shiv who was lunging at her from behind.

Not only this but Leia refers to her as an 80 year old woman, an implication that she is now aging and within the context implies that its surprising she is still down for the job despite being an 80 year old woman, and indeed may be a reason for her inactivity, in fact, Aurra is directly stated to be aging 

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image_14

She ages the same as a regular human, she is stated to be 'aging' during the OT in the above quote, but also is born in 51BBY, in TPM (32BBY) she is 19 Years old, and indeed does appear to be so:

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Aurra10
By the time of TCW she is 30, its clear she aged
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Aurra_10
Aurra is aging as a normal human would

as is Darish Vol, who is 12 years younger than Sing yet is struggling with his age, by the same author 

Fate of the Jedi Ascension wrote:Vol would never admit it, but he tired more easily the older he grew. More and more, he found himself needing to take a few moments to utilize the Force to refresh himself

but the most clear cut link between Aurra and Jacen is in their stats

Aurra's card from 2004
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Aurra_11
--
Jacen's card from 2006 (same year as tempest Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 2960029119 )
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image_15
further proof of PT Aurra's vast superiority to Jacen and proof of her decline

RNG wrote:Wrong. She was among the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis. And she's regarded as one of the greatest and strongest Jedi in the order. She is NOT below Ryelli. She may be around his tier or greater.
Ryelli too was one of the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis 

Hammer wrote:Master Ryelli had lost those fingers in the Pentranaki arena on Geonosis three years ago
and of course one of the few survivors 

despite being an Archeologist 'fighting brilliantly' 
Attack of the Clones Novelization wrote:But even with that, even with all of the remaining Jedi fighting brilliantly in the arena, the droids continued to press in, herding them all together in a hopeless position.
so he is still putting up a comparably good fight to Aayla and the other Jedi there, despite fighting not being a focus of his 

none of the quotes you provided put Aayla above Ryelli, whom, being a master, is by default more powerful unless directly proven untrue 

DEBUNKING LEVIATHAN SCALING 


I. Jacen > Kyp?


RNG wrote:Jacen is above Kyp Durron. As evidenced by the above quote as well as Jacen's superior performance against Vong Slayers. Let's compare their respective fights:
both the above quotes are in universe opinions for one, the fight comparison you made is, well, circumstantial, since in Kyp's fight  

The Unifying Force wrote:Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

The serpentlike creature elongated and wrapped itself around the hilt of the lightsaber. But Kyp wasn't about to surrender his weapon.
he is caught off guard which results in the Vong being able to grab a hold of his weapon, where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon


The Unifying Force wrote:Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.
these are hardly good comparisons when one has a gravitic anomaly too his advantage and another gets his saber caught right from the get go after an unexpected move catching him mid strike, and then also consider that the strength of individual Vong's can vary, these reasons make TUF Jacen > Kyp ambiguous at best 


II. Kyp > Kun?


RNG wrote:Kyp Durron, many years prior managed to kill a Leviathan whilst unarmed.
Yes, and not even using his own power, It is the power of the Black Rain Storms of Corbos that kills the Leviathan

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Black_10


Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Weathe11
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Weathe10


Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Kyp_310

he is using the ability 'Alter Environment' to do this

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Alter10
So its not even Kyp's power here, talk about Malleus using trickery to beat Ryelli but not this Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 2960029119

not to mention the Leviathan Kyp killed with the storm was a small juvenile, the second one that was full sized required the whole team of Jedi to defeat

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Leviat11
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Leviat10   
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Bigger10

there's clearly varying strengths of Leviathans and we don't know the extent to which each Leviathan is imbued with power, the small Leviathan seems to be on the weaker range so quite frankly there is nothing even putting it above a Wyrm, especially the ultra hyped Wyrm hailed as a god that Kun fought.
not to mention the Wyrm is far larger than the small Leviathan 

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Leviat12
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Wyrm10   
So there is absolutely no link to be here between Kyp and Kun  


RNG wrote:Exar Kun struggles with a Sith Wyrm (which are inferior to Leviathans), he is only able to beat it with the power of a Sith amulet.

the entire point of the fight was a test for Kun to use the amulet and embrace the power of the dark side, not only was he also weakened having just awoken from a concussion but his powers are also stated to have abandoned him, add to that the fact that much like Kyp, Kun too was unarmed at first

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Kuncus11
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Kuncus10
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Kuncus13

besides the whole conflict was a ploy set up by Nadd, so again another sketchy comparison 

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:offered Kun to a creature they thought of as a god: a Sith wyrm. The monster was an absolutely enormous
reptile/insect hybrid Naga Sadow had created centuries earlier. The Sith Wyrm prepared to devour Exar Kun. Unknown to either the Massassi or Exar Kun, the spirit of Freedon Nadd was engineering this conflict to turn Exar Kun to the dark side

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Neither Exar Kun nor the Massassi realized that this was just another of Freedon Nadd's tests for Exar Kun, a means to force him to embrace the dark side. When Kun destroyed the creature with an ancient Sith amulet, he won the approval of Nadd, the full strength of the dark side

once he got the amulet and was able to channel his hatred he stomped the Wyrm, the power of the amulet is not separate to his own (unlike the Corbos Storm), it was his own hatred all channeled into one blast 

Gnost Durral: SWTOR Timeline wrote:he channeled his hatred and killed the Wyrm


Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Amulet12
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Amulet11
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Amulet10


Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:Freedon Nadd knew that Kun could only defeat the wyrm by taking up an ancient Sith amulet and focusing the energy of the dark side in concentrated blasts. The wyrm soon fell to Kun

To conclude. Nothing changes. The Jacen > Kyp is dubious at best and Kyp > Kun has no basis, your case has fallen to its knees, don't try to heal a fatal wound. you'll just die slower. concede.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image_16
Chris Cortosis
Chris Cortosis

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

July 22nd 2021, 1:12 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Note: I went waaaaay over the character limit. My character count is 8714. Both my opponent and a judge has approved of me going over the limit. To make up for this, my opponent will be granted an additional 3.3k characters in his response if he needs them.




@Vaelias wrote:The point here is that he was Youngling Level, and not chosen to be a Padawan, so yeh average or above average, but for a Youngling. furthermore Telloti is directly stated to have failed his Apprentice trial
You tried to make the implication that he was too weak to be a Jedi. I merely corrected you there. Also, his failure of the apprentice trial had nothing to do with power as the story told us. Overall though, yes. Telloti very much was unrealized potential, which was my point.


@Vaelias wrote:Perhaps stomped was the wrong word, but Telloti was definitely in the dominant position the entire fight, first blocking Ryelli's blows easily and in an instant before he can even think about it, compared to Ryelli, he was so fast and so strong
--
@Vaelias wrote:The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage
Absolutely not. Let me break down the fight:

1: Pre fight (blue): Telloti puts the armor on. Ryelli tries to talk him down. It's clear that he's scared at this point
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer

2: Fight begins (red): Ryelli starts swinging. Telloti defends. Ryelli gets in a glancing blow. Then Telloti goes on the offense. Pushes Ryelli back. Telloti notes how Ryelli feels weak and how he feels stronger. Ryelli is still scared. That is no doubt fueling Telloti's assault.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer

3: Ryelli makes a comeback (green): Ryelli forces Telloti back. He is described as growing serene. Which means he's no longer scared. And is no longer fueling Telloti. Ryelli has taking the upper hand now that his mind is calm. He is stated to be stronger. It's clear that once he got past the fear, he's stronger. This NOT just physical strength. Once the master regains his composure, he's above Telloti.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer

4: Telloti uses the special nature of Null's lightsaber to win (yellow): Telloti is pushed back. Ryelli is basically in the position to kill him. Telloti activates the special feature on Null's lightsaber and sidesteps Ryelli's killing blow. While the master has over-extended himself, Telloti uses the secret blade to kill Ryelli. Were it not for this exploit, Telloti would be dead.
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer

So no. Ryelli didn't gain the advantage because he was physically swole, he did so because truly, he is a superior to Telloti. Even with the armor. That's why it said he's stronger.


@Vaelias wrote:The fact that Ryelli is forcing Telloti's saber down implies this is purely a physical strength advantage made further evident by the amount of times the armor is stressed to be super powerful, like nothing Telloti had ever felt which would include any Jedi Telloti had ever encountered anywhere, not just Ryelli
--
@Vaelias wrote:Telloti spent some time with Master Piell
--
@Vaelias wrote:A member of the Jedi high council, one of the greatest masters of the order
--
@Vaelias wrote:for which Piell fought many battles
--
@Vaelias wrote:despite this Telloti maintains that the miniscule amount of power remaining in Nulls armor is, in comparison, 'real power' and stronger than he has ever felt

so not only is the power greater than Master Ryelli, its more powerful than High Council Master Piell
This quote is clearly referring to Telloti's own power. The armor is making him more powerful than he ever was. It looks to me that you're actually buying into Telloti's delusions of grandeur. Don't tell me you're gonna start holding him>Dooku just because he thinks he can beat Dooku. This is a baffling leap in logic. Saying that he's high council tier. Especially when he can't beat a non council level master without using a cheap trick.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer


@Vaelias wrote:but lets say it that it is indeed talking about power, then this duel would seem more evenly matched, the armor is still more powerful than Council Master Piell, so that would just boost Ryelli to council master level, strengthening the case that he is undoubtedly more powerful than Aayla

and we don't really need anything more than proximity for this scaling to work so either way this works in my favor
This would work if Telloti was above Piell but he wasn't. As I've covered, Telloti can potentially be on par with Ryelli but he's still below.


@Vaelias wrote:all this means is that it will forever be imprinted with these traits, not that it will forever be as strong in the dark side, as I proved in my last post, Hettons collection in RoT is direct proof of this
Ultimately, the point is: Not all artifacts are the same. And not all decay. We have cases where we know there's no decay. Such as the Muur talisman.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Main-qimg-4ca3124eaaf76d774c7c2f368c747d6d

-Dark Horse

Not all artifacts work the same way. You need more than just a quote from RoT to prove that Null's armor decayed. Nothing from Hammer implies that it decayed.


@Vaelias wrote:Citation needed
I will relent on this point and say it's just a theory/potential possibility. But the original point stands. We have artifacts that haven't decayed. And we have many more with no implication of decay. It's not a hard and fast rule that every artifact decays. And even if Null's armor decayed, Null isn't some rando Sith. There's nothing to say his armor would decay at the same rate.


@Vaelias wrote:Yes and he Opened himself fully to the force and was using the power of his anger, fear and hatred and all his concentration in doing so, add to that Jacen had the element of surprise
--
@Vaelias wrote:Given that Jacen had the element of surprise on Sing here and once in control needed to go all out and maintain his full concentration on her heavily suggests he would not be able to do this had he not caught her off guard, I might be able to jump out on a professional fighter and pin him down and keep him there, but I'm not going to be able to tap him on the shoulder and then take him down and keep him down easily, he was still holding her, but a simple lapse of his tense concentration and she was able to break the connection, this just goes to show the proximity between the two, ultimately he failed to crush her force presence despite his best efforts. and proximity is all we need for the scaling to work.
This entire fight was very circumstantial. He was trying to stop her through mental domination. He had to be careful in how he stopped her because of the thermal det she had. And your irl example doesn't really apply here at all. I'm sure you're aware that mental domination and influence can be resisted by certain species or by strong minds. I've shown this in my Cad Bane example already. But here's more, even non Jedi can be trained to resist mental influence:




@Vaelias wrote:Right so lets take a look at the evidence in more detail and dispel the silly notion that Aurra did not decline
--
@Vaelias wrote: Aurra she will have been largely inactive in recent times and is hardly known anymore per Leia, even as early as 18BBY over 58 years prior to Tempest Aurra is stated to be declining due to this
The Coruscant Nights passage you posted doesn't imply she's atrophied. Merely that the force failed to warn her one time. It's meant to portray her implant's effectiveness and her reflexes. There isn't any evidence that she's atrophied or weakened that much in the force.


@Vaelias wrote:Not only this but Leia refers to her as an 80 year old woman, an implication that she is now aging and within the context implies that its surprising she is still down for the job despite being an 80 year old woman, and indeed may be a reason for her inactivity, in fact, Aurra is directly stated to be aging
Regarding Leia's comments, my point stands. In fact, Leia comments on Aurra's youthful appearance in the same book:

"Do you have nerf steaks?" Nashtah interrupted.
"Sure," Leia said. Nerf steaks were more dinner than lunch, but who knew what timetable Nashtah was on? "How would you like it?"
"Them," Nashtah corrected. "I need three. Just defrosted will be fine."
"Three?" Leia gasped. She did not mean to be rude, but even Saba would have trouble eating that much meat- and Saba was a Barabel. "Perhaps you're accustomed to smaller steaks than we stock. These are half a kilo apiece."
Nashtah's eyes flashed as though insulted. "Make it four," she ordered. "My species has an ... unusual metabolism."
"I think the word you're looking for is ferocious,'' Leia said. "Defrosted it is."
She punched an order into the galley's multiprocessor, requesting two gorba melts for her and Han, and the four steaks for Nashtah. Then she returned to the table and sat across from the assassin.
"What is your species?" Leia asked, trying to sound casual and polite. "You have a youthful appearance, but I sense that you've lived a long and interesting life already."

-Tempest


There's more to suggest that Aurra wasn't post physical prime at all. It's clear that she doesn't age as humans do. She took a lot after her father. Including his aging. Seeing as both these sources came after the NEG to Characters, the NEG saying she was aging should be disregarded.

"My mother was human. My father was a ghost in the night, and I doubt even my mother knew his species-but it was obviously a long-lived one." Nashtah drew her lips back in an indifferent smile. "If I ever find out who he was, perhaps I'll be able to hunt him down and kill him." Her hand drifted toward the swinging holster she wore on her hip. "So how come you and Captain Solo don't know who our employer is?"

-Tempest
She tried to remember how the galaxy's Outer Rim had looked from the observation deck of the pirate ship, so long ago. It had been many years. How many, Sing herself wasn't sure. She wasn't sure of a great many things about herself, including her age and her species. She knew her mother had been human, but her father's ancestry was a mystery. Those she had worked for, including Wallanooga the Hutt, had speculated that he had been Qiraash, Rattataki, Umbaran, perhaps even Anzati. Never mind that none of these could interbreed with humans without a certain amount of genetic tinkering, and that none of those genomes could account for her longevity. So her origins remained a mystery, even to herself.

The past held no interest for Aurra Sing. All that mattered was the now.

-Coruscant Nights: Street of Shadows

Sure, she may have aged, but it's nowhere near the crazy amount you seem to think.


@Vaelias wrote:but the most clear cut link between Aurra and Jacen is in their stats
@Vaelias wrote:Aurra's card from 2004
--
@Vaelias wrote:Jacen's card from 2006 (same year as tempest)
--
@Vaelias wrote:further proof of PT Aurra's vast superiority to Jacen and proof of her decline
You do know that the Jacen that that card portrays is Jacen as of Balance Point, right?

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Champions of the Force Preview 7

The Solo Kids experience some huge growth in Star By Star. Balance Point Jacen is below SBS Jacen. And SBS Jacen is below Traitor Jacen. And Traitor Jacen is below TUF Jacen.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Image0

-Talkin with JD

You're attempting to use the stats of a character who's massively pre NJO prime. This does not at all help your already wonky case.


@Vaelias wrote:Ryelli too was one of the few hundred dispatched to Geonosis
--
@Vaelias wrote:and of course one of the few survivors

despite being an Archeologist 'fighting brilliantly'
--
@Vaelias wrote:so he is still putting up a comparably good fight to Aayla and the other Jedi there, despite fighting not being a focus of his
@Vaelias wrote:none of the quotes you provided put Aayla above Ryelli, whom, being a master, is by default more powerful unless directly proven untrue
If that's not enough, she also fought as a Jedi general in the war.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Complete Visual Guide
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Jedi Heroes

Compare that to Ryelli, who just becomes an archaeologist. He's not facing trials or fighting. And he's dispensable enough to send on exploration missions. At a time where the Jedi are spread super thin.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Hammer

All those quotes I posted prove my point that just because he's a master, doesn't mean he's superior. But I got a much simpler way to prove that Ryelli isn't above Aayla:

He lost 3 fingers at Geonosis. Aayla lost none. She came out of that battle in a way better condition than he did. AND she has better hype. So no. Aayla is not sub Ryelli. In fact, there's a case to be made that she's above him.


@Vaelias wrote:both the above quotes are in universe opinions for one, the fight comparison you made is, well, circumstantial, since in Kyp's fight
Are they opinions? Both Leia and Ganner spend a lot of time around Jedi. They can feel the force in others. They would know how powerful someone is. And in Ganner's case, he was on the receiving end of Jacen's raw power. Both of em have spent a lot of time around Kyp too. So there's no reason the quotes don't bind NJO Kyp.


@Vaelias wrote:he is caught off guard which results in the Vong being able to grab a hold of his weapon, where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon
What you basically just said was "he lost because he lost. If he didn't lose, then he would not have lost"
At that point in time, it is no secret that amphistaffs are lightsaber resistant. Kyp is "caught of guard" by his opponent's superior maneuvering and strength.


@Vaelias wrote:where as Jacen is straight up stated to have an advantage and of course doesn't have anyone clinging and dragging on his weapon
--
@Vaelias wrote:these are hardly good comparisons when one has a gravitic anomaly too his advantage
Way to ignore the rest of the fight. That's one kill out of the rest. Jacen killed 5 slayers in total. He was only able to use that "advantage" for that kill. He's stated to have killed 3 slayers. And it was without any unfair advantages.

Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.

-TUF


@Vaelias wrote:and another gets his saber caught right from the get go after an unexpected move catching him mid strike
Wrong. Kyp was at no disadvantage at the beginning of that fight. It started off on neutral ground and ended on neutral ground.

Kyp raced for the nearest one, catching the warrior across the chest with a powerful upswing of his blade. The Yuuzhan Vong growled and rolled, but his dark, unarmored flesh showed only a shallow bloodless furrow. Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

-TUF


@Vaelias wrote:and then also consider that the strength of individual Vong's can vary, these reasons make TUF Jacen > Kyp ambiguous at best

This is a more than fair comparison. Kyp gets defeated by a weakened slayer. Jacen fights on much more even footing against multiple full power slayers. It's rather simple. And furthermore: There is no reason Jacen shouldn't be > Kyp. He's a Skywalker with a potent connection to the force and he played arguably the biggest role in ending the Vong War. Kyp is potent, but essentially... why wouldn't the hero of the story be more powerful than a side character? And that is supported by their power and feats.


@Vaelias wrote:Yes, and not even using his own power, It is the power of the Black Rain Storms of Corbos that kills the Leviathan
--
@Vaelias wrote:he is using the ability 'Alter Environment' to do this
--
@Vaelias wrote:So its not even Kyp's power here, talk about Malleus using trickery to beat Ryelli but not this
He's using his power to call down the lightning. He's able to direct the lightning rather precisely. I don't see how it's any less impressive.


@Vaelias wrote:not to mention the Leviathan Kyp killed with the storm was a small juvenile, the second one that was full sized required the whole team of Jedi to defeat
The fact that the other one was more powerful doesn't make the one Kyp contended with weak by any means.


@Vaelias wrote:there's clearly varying strengths of Leviathans and we don't know the extent to which each Leviathan is imbued with power, the small Leviathan seems to be on the weaker range so quite frankly there is nothing even putting it above a Wyrm, especially the ultra hyped Wyrm hailed as a god that Kun fought.
Yeah, Leviathans do vary. The small Leviathan being weaker than the large Leviathan by no means puts it below Wyrms. The Book of Sith quotes I posted favor Leviathans in general. It doesn't mention anything about size.


@Vaelias wrote:not to mention the Wyrm is far larger than the small Leviathan

Arguable:

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) XmQosNCwzUpeHP4RrTC8t8mMViQ7DXPXZo5uKnl_TYWOtwJoXyVXJzSM0GURvzHrkiUnjV-pyZEms1600

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 85WdF-PDVdnjGIiV6KOYMjuocOhXP-nLOGGucT1m9wI8B45EmD-KP47SfsuDfCbhJQNia-gaaMm10As1600

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

Even if the Wyrm is that much bigger

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Z


@Vaelias wrote:So there is absolutely no link to be here between Kyp and Kun
Kyp fought on par with a creature that was a superior to the one that Kun fought. Even if it was small, as The Book of Sith quotes showed, these things are army level. They splintered Jedi barricades during the time of the Exiles. They were described as nature advanced to perfection. Everything favors Leviathans over wyrms.

Kyp gets hit and continues fighting like a champ

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Aq3uRD5C9k7r9f6__9LjlSiwgxXfBxaIt1V3Olwrn8vjRqFVd5UB9tOl_r-lm_19H0vEY-ounaOLwQs1600

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

Kun basically gets manhandled instantly.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) 6MTx8G9SShMMsqOvcT_q8tPRWKS-XknfNLSogRnhTX4uURn7ocqQNU1nWvHoM61Ec-CLVDUwGPjps1600

-Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith


@Vaelias wrote:the entire point of the fight was a test for Kun to use the amulet and embrace the power of the dark side, not only was he also weakened having just awoken from a concussion but his powers are also stated to have abandoned him, add to that the fact that much like Kyp, Kun too was unarmed at first
--
@Vaelias wrote:besides the whole conflict was a ploy set up by Nadd, so again another sketchy comparison
--
@Vaelias wrote:once he got the amulet and was able to channel his hatred he stomped the Wyrm, the power of the amulet is not separate to his own (unlike the Corbos Storm), it was his own hatred all channeled into one blast
This proves my point. Look at the fights. Kyp fought on par with an army level creature (small as it may be, it's still superior.) Kun may not have been meant to kill the Wyrm on his own but his performing worse against an inferior creature does put Kyp above Kun at that point. Mind you, Kyp wasn't exactly running at 100% efficiency. He was offput by the despair of the Leviathan's victims and he still performed as well as he did.

Hell... He was still offput until the end of the fight with the second one. Even with all that distraction, Kyp managed to perform amazingly.

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown
Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Unknown

-Jedi Academy: Leviathan

As can be seen with Kun and Kyp's performance in their respective fights, they both were somewhat hindered. Yet Kyp performed far better than Kun did. And against a foe that is superior to the one Kun fought.

There isn't anything that puts Sadow's Wyrm above the Leviathan Kyp faced and there's a lot more hype for Leviathans in general.


@Vaelias wrote: To conclude. Nothing changes. The Jacen > Kyp is dubious at best and Kyp > Kun has no basis, your case has fallen to its knees, don't try to heal a fatal wound. you'll just die slower. concede.
You're correct. Nothing changes. The Hero of the New Jedi Order still decimates the soon-to-be Fallen Knight. Why would I need to concede? My case has stood firm and true.


Bow before the might of the Leviathans and the Hero of the New Jedi Order!



Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Oneshot
Sponsored content

Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #1 - Freedon Nadd Uprising! Ulic Qel-Droma (Vaelias) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum