The PT apprentice uprising

Over the course of time, the PT era Sith apprentices (Dooku/Maul/Vader) have seen their fair share of lowball. However, after examining various sources and how they interact with one another, it seems that their placement should be much higher than many give them credit for. For this reason, this post is being created in the hopes that these characters and others that scale off these characters are given the appropriate amount of respect. This won't be packed full of sources like a traditional respect thread. Rather, it will serve to piece together sources that will result in an overall placement buff. This thread will also serve to inform those who may not be aware of these various impressive quotes. To make this easier to read, it will be broken into three sections. Each of these sections will cover 1-3 characters and a breakdown of where they fit into the force user food chain. 



Part 1: The greatest of the light side aka the Dooku/Windu/Yoda observations

Let's begin by observing this accolade concerning Windu and Yoda as of The Phantom Menace:

Star Wars Fact Files wrote:Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.

This accolade offers an extremely high placement for Windu and Yoda as it specifies that the two are the most powerful of the order which essentially covers every Jedi up to (and including) TPM. To give an idea of how impressive this is, this accolade places the duo above individuals such as Revan (as of his appearance in the novel), The Outlander, Thon, Ood Bnar, Vodo Siosk Baas, Meetra Surik as well as many others. 

As to how this relates to Dooku, we have multiple sources that indicate that as of Attack of the Clones, Dooku and Yoda were equals. Considering this equality, this means that Dooku also benefits from the scaling which places Yoda above all of the previous Jedi. The most powerful accolade in relation to this point is from the mouth of George Lucas himself:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NzzckJOwSlk

George Lucas wrote:"I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back, throwing things at each other even though I knew they were equal to each other so it was a hopeless gesture."

Though we also have other accolades which further justify this placement:

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other.

Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force wrote:The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched.

Part 2: Vader and Maul's well-deserved break


Here is a quote from George Lucas in relation to Anakin's shift in power from pre-suit to post-suit:

George Lucas (rolling stone interview) wrote:

"But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

This quote serves two purposes. The first is that it establishes the idea that Dooku and Maul and quite close as Lucas uses the two together to establish an alternate tier. After all, why would Lucas say that Vader became like Dooku and Maul if there was a power disparity between the two? Lucas could have simply saved breath and said that Vader dropped to Dooku. Or he dropped to Maul. By placing Dooku and Maul together, Lucas aims to make it clear that they are comparable as well as offer a Vader assessment, essentially killing two birds with one stone.  The second purpose of this quote is that it places Vader in line with Dooku. By doing this, Lucas creates the concept of Vader/Maul/Dooku being in the same tier. As such, all three would benefit from the scaling mentioned in part 1. 



Given that this is a G-canon quote, it stands as very powerful evidence for Maul/Vader's comparability to Dooku and as a direct consequence, their superiority compared to the Jedi who are all placed below Yoda as of AotC. 



A counterargument that has been used to question the validity of this quote is the concept that the quote refers to the role and status of the character. Essentially, the argument tries to assert that Maul and Dooku were apprentices that were disposable and that were replaceable which is a status that Vader had fallen to. Firstly, this argument basically debunks itself considering that the quote itself refers to strength and not status. Secondly, this argument fails due to the fact that the status and role of Dooku and Maul were not similar in any sense. Dooku's role was always to keep the apprentice seat warm for Anakin but Maul was not treated with the same degree of apathy nor was he replaceable in the same way that Dooku was. Evidence of this can be seen in the following quotes:

Maul's death is deemed to be a loss:

The Clone Wars Campaign Guide (2009) wrote:

The loss of Sith Lord's former apprentice, Darth Maul, motivates Sidious to seek out a new apprentice, a convert who already has the training he needs - and who can be turned to the Dark Side.

Maul was given the status of a successor which was certainly never awarded to Dooku:

Darth Maul - Shadow Hunter wrote:''The man who had taken the young Maul from a backwater planet and raised him to be his successor. He owed Darth Sidious everything.''

Maul - Lockdown wrote:''For all Darth Sidious’s talk of his role as his apprentice and eventual successor, Maul still felt precious little connection to the Sith grand plan for the galaxy and his place within it.''

Finally, this quote should be noted as it establishes that Anakin's position as Sidious' apprentice was only decided on once Maul was dead. It also highlights a key difference in the status between Maul and Dooku given that Dooku is labeled as a "placeholder":

Darth Plagueis wrote:

Dooku had talent, and could be a powerful placeholder. But this seemingly guileless pleasant-faced boy, this Forceful boy, was the one he would take as his apprentice, and use to execute the final stage of the Grand Plan. Let Obi-Wan instruct him in the ways of the Force, and let Skywalker grow embittered over the next decade as his mother aged in slavery, the galaxy deteriorated around him, and his fellow Jedi fell to inextricable conflicts. He was too young to be trained in the ways of the Sith, in any case, but he was the perfect age to bond with a father figure who would listen to all his troubles and coax him inexorably over to the dark side.

"As I told you on Naboo, Anakin," he said finally, "we will continue to follow your career with great interest."

And assure that it culminates in the ruination of the Jedi Order and the reascendancy of the Sith! 

Part 3: The wider impact



This scaling also has an impact on those characters who already hold pre-existing scaling with the characters previously mentioned. So, if one is superior to Vader for example, their superiority would reign over a very wide range of Jedi. While there are many examples that could be observed, I think an excellent case to observe would be Exar Kun. This section will serve to highlight overall respect as well as address a popular scaling fallacy. 


For a long time, many have operated under the assumption that one can lowball Kun due to the following accolade:

Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:"An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?"

This quote would be used to effectively create a scaling chain that would look something like this:



Revan (Novel)> KotoR Revan> Star Forge Malak>>Exar Kun



While one can counter this quote by noting the multiple interpretations that are possible with this quote, that isn't necessarily as crucial to the debunk given how Kun benefits from the scaling covered in part 1 and part 2. Essentially, all that needs to be done is establish that Kun is at least on par or ahead of Vader and then Kun gains the benefit of being able all Jedi prior to the PT. And as we can see via numerous sources, this task can be accomplished without much of an issue.



Luke noting Kun and Sidious as the strongest focal points of the dark side he had encountered which would logically place Kun above Vader:

Specter of the Past wrote:There in front of him, starkly visible against the blackness of space, he could see the faint images of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun, two of the greatest focal points of the dark side he’d ever had to face. They were standing there before him, gazing back at him. And laughing.

We also have this quote which indicates that Ulic and Kun are in the same ballpark as Vader and Sidious:

West End Games supplement wrote:

They're about the same strength as Vader and Palpatine but less amicable.

This is a translation from the original source which can be viewed with the following link (apologies but I couldn't seem to get the screenshot loading correctly):

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/687481658928005297/713559136302006332/Screen_Shot_2020-05-22_at_9.08.10_PM.png

While other counters exist for the Malak quote, this can just be added to the TOR scaling downfall exhibit. While Kun was used within this example, there are many others who deserve placement raising as a consequence of being related to characters who scale above pre-PT Jedi. 


Conclusion:

As we have seen from the numerous sources, the lowball of PT apprentices is a flawed concept that is debunked through a logical scaling process. As such, this attitude of placing characters like Vader extremely low is in dire need of re-examination and alteration. I hope everyone learned something from this thread or at the very least, observed a perspective that gets them thinking about their character placements and organisation of tier lists.

Very nice post though I disagree entirely about Dooku getting lowballed.
One question I have is how reliable is the West End Games quote about Kun and Ulic being about the same strength as Vader and Palpatine?

Nice post, but Dooku is definitely not lowballed. Quite the opposite, really.

With the existence of people like BOD, LOTL and SS, who attempt to worsen everything that's ever been said about Dooku or been done by him through being overly pedantic, I'd defo say that there's an element of lowballing. That aside, the majority have a reasonable view on Dooku.

With the existence of people like BOD, LOTL and SS, who attempt to worsen everything that's ever been said about Dooku or been done by him through being overly pedantic, I'd defo say that there's an element of lowballing. 

Uh...what? I've never tried to lowball Dooku. I've always held him very high.

Till now, not a single argument favoring him being comparable to Palpatine has been given

OT: Nice thread bro

Anyway, to bring this back on track: @Trayus Marauder do you have the apprentices all relevant to each other? Or does one or two hold an edge?

Any more derailing and people are getting temp bans. Take your petty squabbles elsewhere.

@BoD

I have all three apprentices in the same tier in terms of power and overall combat capability.

Trayus, how do you reconcile Lucas' quote on Vader being like Dooku or Maul with his comments about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon being "much much faster" than Vader?

@Meatpants

Got the specific quote/s on hand? Source as well would be helpful.

Then when we move to the Prequel, where there were Jedi and they were full flower and fighting as they were in the past, you know, well trained Jedi, then we had to make the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought.

@Trayus Marauder:

My apologies for the disruption of your blog. As a legitimate attempt to prompt discussion beyond simple bait I have a few things to note:

A) The counter to the Lucas quote isn't that it's referencing the roles the apprentices hold, but that they're all beneath him in strength (Not necessarily to similar degrees), hence the comparison.

B) Following from the previous point according to Ant even a linguist has stated that it can be interpreted in a variety of ways, and that it's not definitively referring to anything.

C) Lucas has been consistent in his opinion of Vader as beneath TPM Kenobi. Given this, I'm not inclined to believe that this statement, which is impossible to define with certainty, is likely to be referencing power.

@LOTL: I've never said Dooku is comparable to Sids.

Meatpants wrote:Trayus, how do you reconcile Lucas' quote on Vader being like Dooku or Maul with his comments about Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon being "much much faster" than Vader?

They're easy to reconcile; TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon leverage and exert their speed a lot more than Vader does, Force power/reserves and Force augmentation are also generally disproportionate.

Latham2000 wrote:They're easy to reconcile; TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon leverage and exert their speed a lot more than Vader does

Yes, but there's a difference between leveraging speed over strength and being "much much" quicker than someone. We're talking about a weightless weapon here. If Qui-Gon's considerably quicker than Vader in a duel, he's going to win.

Latham2000 wrote:Force power/reserves and Force augmentation are also generally disproportionate.

In what way are they generally disproportionate?

Even though I disagree with part of your theory (such as the equality in the force between Yoda and Dooku), this is an interresting work

How that first accolade encompasses all the Jedi Order's history?

@Meatpants

Yes, but there's a difference between leveraging speed over strength and being "much much" quicker than someone. We're talking about a weightless weapon here. If Qui-Gon's considerably quicker than Vader in a duel, he's going to win.

You don't seem to be actually addressing the crux my argument, I chalked down Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan being "much much faster" than Vader because they leverage and exert their speed a lot more than Vader does, given that Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan as of TPM use fighting styles that revolve around running, jumping and spinning.

Leveraging speed whilst using a "weightless weapon" is hardly any different than leveraging strength, because speed has an impact on how quickly you slam your "weightless weapon" against someone else's, it has an impact on how many times you lock your "weightless weapon" with someone else's, it has an impact on how much momentum you generate. I'm bringing TPM Obi-Wan into this because he's just as much as a central Jedi fighter in TPM as Qui-Gon, given that he's in virtually every lightsaber battle that his master is in, and Obi-Wan is even faster than Qui-Gon because he leverages and exerts his speed more than Qui-Gon does even though Qui-Gon is more powerful, the reason why he does that is because Kenobi can afford to do it for prolonged periods of time thanks to having more natural stamina:

"Gripping his lightsaber in his left hand, he extended his arm forward and activated the second blade. The Jedi activated their lightsabers, and Maul noticed Qui-Gon Jinn's blade flashed a fraction of a second after Obi-Wan's.

The old Jedi's getting slow.

Maul made a jabbing motion at Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan leaped at Maul." -- The Wrath of Darth Maul.

The OOU narrator says that Obi-Wan activated his lightsaber quicker than his master did and that Maul notices it, but Maul, in his internal monologues, attributes this to Qui-Gon's diminishing speed, due to his old age, Star Wars: Episode I Insider's Guide states that Obi-Wan his faster and contains more stamina than his master. This isn't because Obi-Wan is more powerful than his master, it's because if Qui-Gon decided to leverage his speed to the same extent that his padawan did, he would tire out quicker, but he doesn't want to tire himself out.

In what way are they generally disproportionate?

They're disproportionate in the sense that no one puts all their pool of Force reserves in their augmentation, because they'd burn themselves out, except in the case they fight someone who is far stronger than them, forcing themselves to put so much effort and exertion that they drain their reserves. But that's not it, Vader's lightsaber skill and Force powers/reserves are factually disproportionate:

"Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder." -- The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide.

The text is pretty clear cut; Vader is more capable with the Force than he is in lightsaber combat, which is a confirmation that Vader's lightsaber skill and Force powers/reserves are factually disproportionate. This definitely includes Vader's Force augmentation, because lightsaber combat includes Force augmentation, not just technical skill. Vader being described as "an unparalleled lightsaber combat" isn't a hyperbole, because Sheev Palpatine doesn't even use a lightsaber at this time period, just like Yoda.

I'll give you another example in the form of Ben Kenobi:

"Darth Vader ignored the blasterfight and looked down at the old brown cloak and lightsaber that lay on the floor. Incredibly, Obi-Wan had completely disappeared.

Where is he? How could he vanish? What sort of trickery is this? He had assumed Obi-Wan's study of the Force had ended long ago, and that his powers had diminished over time. But Vader was wrong." -- A New Hope Junior Novel.

This quote from ANH junior novel, released in 2004 (only a year before the prequel trilogy is at its completion) says that Vader initially assumed that Obi-Wan's powers had diminished over time as a perceived result of discontinued Force studies, but was eventually proven wrong. That straight text are Vader's thoughts, whereas the italic text is the OOU writer's narration, I made this distinction because in the actual printed book itself, Vader's internal thoughts are highlighted as italics, whereas the rest of the text is straight. It's explicitly stating that ANH Obi-Wan isn't less powerful than RotS Obi-Wan, what Ben has actually degraded was his lightsaber skill and physical ability. Another LFL source has directly supported this view:

"Despite his years of seclusion on Tatooine, neither his courage nor his Jedi powers have diminished." -- Unknown Trading Card publication.

^ This is self explanatory. So we have two sources saying Ben Kenobi's Force powers didn't diminish at all, which leaves open 2 options: His powers remained exactly the same, or they increased, I think they increased because we have this:

"Finally, a few Jedi choose to fade away into the backdrop of the galaxy, biding their time until they can act. They do not abandon their lives as Jedi, but they do not actively seek to draw the Empire's attention. Both Yoda and Kenobi choose this life, as does the Togruta Jedi Shaak Ti. By retreating into the shadows. these individuals ensure that the Empire's Jedi hunters do not find them allowing them to prepare for a time in the future when they will once again step onto the galactic stage. These Jedi spend their days honing their skills in the Force. meditating and practicing their lightsaber techniques. They believe that their destiny has not been fulfilled, and that only the guidance of the Force, not their own desire to strike back at the Empire, is the true path to success." -- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide.

Granted, this source does say that Ben practiced his lightsaber technique, which is odds with a few other sources saying he was out of practice by ANH, but that's the only actual contradiction. Being out of practise with a lightsaber won't preclude Ben from meditating and honing his skills with the Force, which is what the quote says. The idea that Ben Kenobi's Force skills are greater than his younger self's also makes sense because his entire exile on Tatooine revolved around meditating, increasing his connection with the Living Force and guarding Luke.


But despite all this, despite old Ben having equal, if not greater Force power/reserves than his RotS self, who is so powerful that Dooku had to expend all of his Force reserves to Force choke him out of the fight, Ben can't translate and manifest his great power/reserves into his augmentation so well, given that Vader could block Ben's strike with "equal speed" in their fight:

"Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape. Vader blocked the stab with equal speed, riposting with a counterslash that Kenobi barely parried. Another parry and Kenobi countered again, using this opportunity to move around the towering Dark Lord." -- A New Hope Novel.

Vader demonstrated equal augmented speed as old Ben, the same Vader who Lucas has described as "much much slower" than Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan, which is more proof that Force power/reserves and Force augmentation are disproportionate. The reason why Ben is that slow has been confirmed by these sources:

“A generation later, Obi-Wan Kenobi would face Darth Vader once again. While Vader wanted revenge, Obi-Wan was focused on buying time for his friends— including Luke Skywalker. Their duel was careful and measured compared to their previous meeting. Obi-Wan's movements were slowed by age and lack of practice; Darth Vader— recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter—  fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions. Ultimately, Obi-Wan deliberately dropped his defenses, and Darth Vader cut through him, but the Jedi Master mysteriously vanished into the Force.” -- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force.

The first source is from 2010, it's relatively recent, so you can't make any excuses about it being outdated. It plainly states that a combination of old age and rust had diminished Obi-Wan's movements, which is not mutually exclusive with the quotes that state that Ben's powers did not diminish, but likely have increased. Ben's powers increasing makes sense in the grand scheme of things because his exile on Tatooine was about him coming to terms with his inner demons (e.g. watching Anakin kept burned alive and the sheer horror at his Jedi brethren being persecuted and murdered) and deepening his connection with the living Force, which is what led to him achieving immortality. Moreover, it's a common, ongoing theme in the Star Wars mythos that overcoming mental and physical confrontations/conflicts lead to one's power in the Force growing:

"It is only through interaction, through decision and choice, through confrontation, physical or mental, that the Force can grow within you." -- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.

This has happened in Star Wars many times. For example, when Obi-Wan let go of several attachments in his fight with Anakin the RotS novel (e.g. promise to Qui-Gon, failure with Anakin, his hopes and fears etc.), he performed better. This shouldn't come as any surprise because anyone who goes through struggles, physical or mental, and learns something from it, you become stronger because it's a personal triumph. Coming to terms with something or letting go of something make you stronger in mind. I believe that I am missing a quote that explicitly states that Ben increased his connection with the Force during his exile, I am 99% sure I have seen it been floating around but I've had no luck finding it, I think it's from The Complete Star Wars Encylopedia. Old Ben Kenobi at the bare minimum, has the same power/reserves as his RotS self, if not greater power due to the statement that he honed his skills with the Force and meditated, but it's disproportionate with his Force augmentation, to the extent that he's slower than Qui-Gon and freaking TPM Kenobi, and this is because of old age and rust, and Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi aren't more powerful than Ben Kenobi.

Latham2000 wrote:Leveraging speed whilst using a "weightless weapon" is hardly any different than leveraging strength

It is when you're "much much quicker" than your opponent. What you're suggesting is that Lucas is actually talking about small stylistic differences between Vader and Kenobi/Jinn, which isn't the logical way to approach the quote. Especially when this sentiment is repeated elsewhere;



"Far more power and agility" than anything we see in the original films, which includes Luke's rage amp. This Insider quote corroborates what Lucas is referring to here. He's not talking about Vader being a strength-based fighter, he's talking about how the choreography is improving in step with progressively better swordfighters, and this trend continues through to AOTC and ROTS as well. On a side note, I don't think Lucas really cares that much about the particulars of the swordfights much, or how Vader leverages his lightsaber compared to Qui-Gon. He's just saying the swordfighting in TPM is better than in ROTJ, that's it.

Latham2000 wrote:They're disproportionate in the sense that no one puts all their pool of Force reserves in their augmentation, because they'd burn themselves out, except in the case they fight someone who is far stronger than them, forcing themselves to put so much effort and exertion that they drain their reserves.

How does that explain why lightsaber dueling isn't a valid proxy for power? What examples can you provide where a lightsaber duel would go drastically different to a straight telekinetic struggle?

Latham2000 wrote:The text is pretty clear cut; Vader is more capable with the Force than he is in lightsaber combat, which is a confirmation that Vader's lightsaber skill and Force powers/reserves are factually disproportionate.

Yeah, except Vader improved:



So there's no reason why ROTJ Vader's lightsaber augmentation wouldn't give us a pretty good approximation of his Force power.

But even that doesn't matter because as the above cited Insider quote says, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul display "far more power and agility" than what we see in ROTJ, which includes when Luke has Vader on the backfoot and kicks him down the stairs, snapping a cable in his leg, or when enraged Luke wears him down. In other words, Luke dominating Vader is nothing compared to what Jinn and Maul can do.

Latham2000 wrote:who is so powerful that Dooku had to expend all of his Force reserves to Force choke him out of the fight

Citation?

Latham2000 wrote:Vader demonstrated equal augmented speed as old Ben, the same Vader who Lucas has described as "much much slower" than Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan, which is more proof that Force power/reserves and Force augmentation are disproportionate. The reason why Ben is that slow has been confirmed by these sources:

Okay, let's entertain that Obi-Wan's power didn't diminish. The very sources you give explain that Ben is a special case, he's an outlier. He actually has a reason for such a gap between his power in the Force and his ability to translate that to augmentation. But of course, an outlier can not be used to argue that augmentation isn't a valid proxy for power. As I've cited above, Vader doesn't have that limitation, he grew out of it. Lightsaber duels expend a tremendous amount of energy; they rarely last a minute;

Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

Dueling all-out typically drains Force users in less than a minute, indicating that augmenting your physical abilities drains your reserves very quickly, and thus serves as a reliably proxy for power.

---

We just need to apply logic here. Is Lucas talking about the particulars and intricacies of Vader's fighting style relative to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan? Is he talking about how Vader leverages strength whereas Qui-Gon leverages speed? He didn't seem to think so when he was telling Ian McCraig that this is the first confrontation between real Jedi and Sith, and so it had to be very fast, like a cockfight. Or is he simply saying that the capabilities of the characters as duelists is growing in lockstep with the choreography? His "OOU" justification is irrelevant too, no matter how ridiculous you think it is. So if he says the swordfighting is "much much faster" and "more sophisticated and aggressive" than what we saw in ROTJ - then it's exactly that, and Insider corroborates this just fine.

It comes down to Lucas really. I think the best way to debate Star Wars is to begin with the foundation set by the official policy of Legends continuity: that Lucas' words are G-canon. We work from there. Also, although you haven't said this, the idea that Lucas constantly contradicts himself vis-a-vis the combative level of Vader is untrue. He's made himself perfectly clear, and there's nothing he's subsequently said that contradicts the idea that Vader is an inferior duelist to TPM Kenobi.

Yea TPM Maul/ROTJ Vader/Count Dooku should all be relatively equal. 

I only see Sod Maul being a bit improved due to his growth from TPM, where TalZin restores his powers so he’s stronger then he was but his mind isn’t fully repaired yet.

Meatpants stomping

I might write out a full rebuttal to this when I have time, because honestly, almost everything written in this thread is wrong.

Rather than making responses to each and every comment, I'll quickly make a post covering some of the key questions that have been asked.

1. The Yoda quote placing him as the most powerful Jedi of the order applies to all Jedi who fall under that group as the quote does not specify a particular period of time or a specific section of the order. Given that the Jedi Order as a whole has existed thousands of years BBY, that naturally puts Yoda above a wide range of Jedi. There's nothing to suggest that any of them are exempt as long as they were part of the order during or prior to TPM.

2. While the Vader/Maul/Dooku quote has multiple interpretations that are theoretically possible, I would remind everyone that a large chunk of EU content would possess the same quality where multiple interpretations of events or wording is possible. Thus this idea that some have (not pointing fingers at anyone specifically) where the quote should not be used is highly flawed. Naturally, we should analyse and assess the quote to find the most logical interpretation/conclusion and then go from there. While on the subject of this quote, the interpretation of Vader being compared to Dooku and Maul in terms of their weakness compared to Sidious does not necessarily contradict the conclusions that I have drawn. Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall and one of those common attributes can be their position under Sidious. 

3. This idea of TPM Kenobi being above Vader is flawed overall considering two important details. The first being that Lucas creates a comparison between Vader/Maul/Dooku and as I explained, power comparison is the clearest and most logical explanation. The second being that the quotes that are pro Kenobi (the ones presented so far at least) are ones that do not necessarily work for scaling purposes. 

Quote 1- Kenobi being "much much faster":

Note that this quote is making reference to filming and choreography, not necessarily augmentation speeds. Naturally, given Vader's hindered mobility, Ben's old age and Luke's general lack of knowledge when it comes to certain saber forms, acrobatics and super fast-paced dueling would not occur. Instead, all three are seen in duels where the aim is the control of space and positioning. This is easier to film and as established in later lore, fits in with their choice of form. The dueling choreography being faster does not necessarily make the individual faster. After all, the Maul/Jinn/Kenobi fight was faster than the Sidious/Windu fight in terms of overall movement usage. Despite this, Mace and Sidious are certainly not slower than the TPM trio. 

Quote 2- TPM duelists showing "far more power and agility":

My counter to this is similar to the counter for quote 1. Greater displays of agility does not make an individual superior by default. As for "far more power", this raises several questions. Those questions being:

A. How was ANH Vader able to genuinely contend with resurrection Maul when Maul is "far more powerful"?
B. How does Vader even as early as TFU scale above PT characters if people like TPM Kenobi are far superior to RotJ Vader according to this quote? Keep in mind that Lucas oversaw TFU. Considering this, would he really allow scaling like that if his vision was PT>OT?

@Meatpants

It is when you're "much much quicker" than your opponent. What you're suggesting is that Lucas is actually talking about small stylistic differences between Vader and Kenobi/Jinn, which isn't the logical way to approach the quote.

You're using circular reasoning by completely ommitting my explanation of why leveraging speed is hardly any different than leveraging strength, and you've forgotten what Lucas's last words were in the ending portions of that quote:

George Lucas: Then when we move to the Prequel, where there were Jedi and they were full flower and fighting as they were in the past, you know, well trained Jedi, then we had to make the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought.

Lucas explicitly states that he and the choreagraphers of the Prequels made the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive "in terms the way they're fought," i.e. he's talking about how the Jedi of the prequels fight in contrast to the Jedi of the original trilogy. We can argue all day about what Lucas was thinking when he said this, but that's appealing to Lucas's private thoughts, which is fallacious because what is actually G canon is what Lucas says. Lucas's private thoughts that he hasn't shared are not G canon. My argument about the fighting styles that Kenobi/Jinn use however in contrast to Vader, actually serves an in universe explanation of why Jinn and Kenobi are "much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought" in terms of how they fight in comparison to Vader, they simply leverage and exert their speed a lot more than Vader does, which is perfectly feasible for them not just because of their chosen techniques, but also because they don't have to deal with the cybernetics that have hampered Vader's movements.

Especially when this sentiment is repeated elsewhere;



"Far more power and agility" than anything we see in the original films, which includes Luke's rage amp. This Insider quote corroborates what Lucas is referring to here. He's not talking about Vader being a strength-based fighter, he's talking about how the choreography is improving in step with progressively better swordfighters, and this trend continues through to AOTC and ROTS as well. On a side note, I don't think Lucas really cares that much about the particulars of the swordfights much, or how Vader leverages his lightsaber compared to Qui-Gon. He's just saying the swordfighting in TPM is better than in ROTJ, that's it.

That Insider quote states that Qui-Gon demonstrated far more power than the Jedi of the original trilogy had, but I can argue that it's about overt applications that are depicted onscreen in that Qui-Gon exerts and leverages his power more than the Jedi of the original trilogy, you're arguing that this Insider quote is literally saying that Qui-Gon has more Force power/reserves than the Jedi of the original trilogy, but this doesn't just include Luke and Vader in your equation, it also includes old Ben Kenobi by your logic, which backfires because old Ben is factually at least as power as his RotS self, I've given 2 quotes that explicitly state it in conjunction with additional quote that states that Ben honed his Force skills, whilst also explaining why these quotes conceptually make sense in the light of what old Ben was doing in is exile i.e. studying the living Force to achieve immortality, and you virtually conceded to that. Qui-Gon isn't more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.

Whether you believe Lucas cares about that much about the intricate particulars of swordfights or not, is not an actual argument, because Lucas's unstated thoughts on the intricate particulars of swordfights don't matter, what actually matters are his stated thoughts that he has actually shared in his notes or with other people, the statements that the Jedi of the Prequels being much faster, more aggressive and sophisticated in terms the way that they fought, are not mutually exclusive with the intricate particulars of swordfights. Even if you do want to talk about Lucas's thoughts on the particulars of swordfights, let's not forget he line edited Stover's RotS novel word for word, where he actively trimmed down a lot of EU references (lol) to a minimum, but one of the things that were kept in the Lucas approved RotS novel was the constant mentions of the lightsaber forms that that Anakin, Obi-Wan, Dooku developed their fighting styles around, so he clearly has no problems with their existence. Plus, Nick Gillard, who Lucas worked with, actually claimed in that he was involved in the creative process of these forms when he was working on the prequels. But really, it doesn't matter whether Lucas cares about the larger details of swordfights that the EU fleshed out, especially when we're considering C canon too.

How does that explain why lightsaber dueling isn't a valid proxy for power? What examples can you provide where a lightsaber duel would go drastically different to a straight telekinetic struggle?

Fine, I'll give you an example; Yoda vs Dooku in AotC. When Dooku and Yoda confronted each other in AotC, their fight initially started as a straight telekinetic struggle, throwing objects at each other. Then they turned the telekinetic struggle into a Lighting vs Tutanamis contest. No one won these exchanges because these exchanges were too evenly matched based on these OOU sources:

"The two Force warriors attempted to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis and other Force abilities, but they were too evenly matched." -- Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

"The Jedi Master Yoda confronted Dooku. The two engaged in a titanic struggle of Force powers, neither besting the other. It came down to a contest of lightsabers. In a blurring tangle of speed and light, the two masters of the Force dueled." -- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia.

This is exactly why Dooku makes this statement:



Dooku says that their contest cannot be decided by the Force, but by their skills with a blade, hence why he gives up on unleashing his telekinetic assault and lightning assault on Yoda. Keep in mind that when Dooku makes this statement, Yoda does not disagree with Dooku by word or action, but actually agrees with him by igniting his own blade. All of this is very nicely complimented by the main man himself i.e. George Lucas:

George Lucas: You can't just go right into the sword fight, so I decided to go back to The Empire Strikes Back of throwing things at each other, even though I knew they were equal to each other, so it was a hopeless gesture and they would've figured that out in two seconds. But for the audience it's nice for them to go through this process of everybody throwing everything around.

Source -- Attack of the Clones DVD Commentary .

George states that he allowed the Force clash between Dooku and Yoda run on for as long as it did to give the audience something to marvel over, but he knew Yoda and Count Dooku were equals and they would have figured this out right away knowing any attack was hopeless, based on their inconclusive Force clash. And in case you try saying it - no, Lucas is not saying that the Force clash was equals, he says that "they were equal to each other" he's not saying they're equals to each other in a target hitting contest, simply that Dooku and Yoda are trying to defeat each other with displays of telekinesis, which Lucas knew they were equally good in. Yoda and Dooku also had a lightning vs tutaminis battle.


But what happened when it came to their lightsaber duel? Yoda was winning the fight, virtually every depiction of their fight e.g. AotC novel, AotC junior novel, AotC script, AotC comic book, AotC Mighty Chronicles etc. depicts Yoda as winning and Dooku losing, but Yoda congratulated Dooku on fighting well. Granted, Yoda didn't actually win the fight, but that's because Dooku distracted Yoda by collapsing a large object on Anakin and Obi-Wan in an attempt to kill them, giving himself the opportunity to run away from Yoda. Yoda didn't win because the fight itself was disrupted, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winning the lightsaber duel against Dooku, whereas neither Yoda or Dooku gained an advantage over each other in their telekinetic clash. I shouldn't even need to bring up an example.

Yeah, except Vader improved:



So there's no reason why ROTJ Vader's lightsaber augmentation wouldn't give us a pretty good approximation of his Force power.

But even that doesn't matter because as the above cited Insider quote says, Qui-Gon and Darth Maul display "far more power and agility" than what we see in ROTJ, which includes when Luke has Vader on the backfoot and kicks him down the stairs, snapping a cable in his leg, or when enraged Luke wears him down. In other words, Luke dominating Vader is nothing compared to what Jinn and Maul can do.

All what that quote actually says is that Vader removed restrictions from his suit and his injuries from Mustafar. The quote doesn't say that Vader's lightsaber prowess improved to a higher degree than his Force powers to the point that he's equally capable with a lightsaber as he is with the Force, you have no reason to assume that RotJ Vader's lightsaber augmentation would give us "a pretty good approximation of his Force power," this is an assumption that you're shoe horning in your quote, and I've already addressed the Insider quote. The quote that I provided simply states that Vader is more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber, it does not say that the restrictions of Vader's suit and injuries is the reason why he's more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber. And there is Fightsaber saying that Vader's movements were restricted by his cybernetics even up until RotJ.

Citation?

Here:

"To begin with, Anakin and Obi-Wan did well, pushing Dooku back and destroying the B2 droids. Realizing that each Jedi was a threat on their own, Dooku abruptly switched tactics. He lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage." -- The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 32   

Granted, a part of this quote, specifically the part that says Dooku was helpless before Anakin's rage, is at odds with the RotS novel's depiction of the fight, in that fight Dooku expends a lot of energy in removing Kenobi from the fight, but he later replenishes his energy because there's a brief pause that gives him the time for him to replenish himself. But Dooku doesn't Force choke him in the novel, he kicks him off the stairs, unleashes a Force blast that accelerates Kenobi's fall, then collapses a balcony on him, and then he uses the opportune pause to replenish himself. The only actual contradiction there is between this source and the RotS novel, is the subject on whether Dooku replenished himself, that's it.

Okay, let's entertain that Obi-Wan's power didn't diminish. The very sources you give explain that Ben is a special case, he's an outlier. He actually has a reason for such a gap between his power in the Force and his ability to translate that to augmentation. But of course, an outlier can not be used to argue that augmentation isn't a valid proxy for power. As I've cited above, Vader doesn't have that limitation, he grew out of it. Lightsaber duels expend a tremendous amount of energy; they rarely last a minute;

Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.

Dueling all-out typically drains Force users in less than a minute, indicating that augmenting your physical abilities drains your reserves very quickly, and thus serves as a reliably proxy for power.

Yes, let's absolutely entertain that Obi-Wan's power didn't diminish... Because it's true. You're handwaving my sources on Ben as an outlier because it actively refutes your belief that augmentation is a pretty goood approximation of one's Force power/reserves. Vader being more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber is not a result of the restrictions of his injuries and cybernetics because my quote does not say declare that as a cause, the fact that he improved after TFU II in both lightsaber prowess and Force powers, whilst also becoming more accustomed to his suit, isn't proof that his augmentation became "a pretty good approximation of his Force power" because it's assuming that the restrictions of Vader's cybernetics and injuries are the reason why he's more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber, which my quote never stated. Moreover, you oversimplified the Dynasty of Evil quote, the first sentence says that few duels lasted more than a minute because lightsaber duels are brutal in their intensity, but this could be referring to physical exhaustion, not depleted Force reserves, it could also be referring to both exhaustion and drained Force reserves, but you've not explained why it's only about Force reserves. I would say it's talking about physical exhaustion, because the very next sentence of that quote clarifies it by saying that the effort of going all-out in combat is exhausting, particularly when using Ataru's acrobatic maneuvers, and Ataru is notorious for being the most physically demanding of all lightsaber forms, and physical exhaustion can be pushed aside by replenishing your Force reserves. We actually see this in practice with Obi-Wan and Anakin vs Dooku. In the beginning stages of their fight, the RotS script states that both Dooku and Obi-Wan are tired, whereas Anakin is simply getting stronger and stronger due to his anger. Why were Obi-Wan and Dooku getting tired? The RotS novel clarifies this by mentioning that Dooku's Force augmentation can only go so far to make up for his old age induced stamina problems. For Obi-Wan however, no other sources mentions that Obi-Wan is tired in the beginning stages of the fight, so there's no clarification for why he's tired, but we can chalk this down to the fact that he was using Ataru and Shii Cho in the beginning stages of the fight, but starts using Soresu once he and Anakin are done with trolling Dooku. So your quote isn't proof that Force augmentation is an approximate proxy of Force power/reserves, I gave an actual example of why Force augmentation and Force power/reserves being disproportionate with Ben Kenobi, and you handwaved it as an outlier.

We just need to apply logic here. Is Lucas talking about the particulars and intricacies of Vader's fighting style relative to Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan? Is he talking about how Vader leverages strength whereas Qui-Gon leverages speed? He didn't seem to think so when he was telling Ian McCraig that this is the first confrontation between real Jedi and Sith, and so it had to be very fast, like a cockfight. Or is he simply saying that the capabilities of the characters as duelists is growing in lockstep with the choreography? His "OOU" justification is irrelevant too, no matter how ridiculous you think it is. So if he says the swordfighting is "much much faster" and "more sophisticated and aggressive" than what we saw in ROTJ - then it's exactly that, and Insider corroborates this just fine.

It comes down to Lucas really. I think the best way to debate Star Wars is to begin with the foundation set by the official policy of Legends continuity: that Lucas' words are G-canon. We work from there. Also, although you haven't said this, the idea that Lucas constantly contradicts himself vis-a-vis the combative level of Vader is untrue. He's made himself perfectly clear, and there's nothing he's subsequently said that contradicts the idea that Vader is an inferior duelist to TPM Kenobi.

Lucas is simply saying that the choreagaphy was delibarately made much much faster, aggressive and sophisticated, never did I say that the choreagraphy didn't become much much faster, aggressive and sophisticated. You can rant as much as you want about Lucas's private thoughts and whether or not he cares about intricate particulars of lightsaber combat that the EU fleshed out, but they are easily reconcilable in that the faster choreagraphy in the Prequels are a result of the Jedi of the Prequels exert their speed a lot more and their bodies allow them to make use of flamboyant acrobatics more in contrast to Vader being a more measured, strength orientated fighter during the OT that the C canon material paints him as. This also explains why Vader is able to duel Jedi from the Prequel era, and overcome some of them in the few years following RotS in 2005+ material, despite them being faster and more acrobatic. Whether Lucas cares about the C canon material or not is irrelevant because he never comments on them, since you appealed to what Lucas was thinking, than I can also argue that Lucas would probably once again say "it's not my universe."

"To begin with, Anakin and Obi-Wan did well, pushing Dooku back and destroying the B2 droids. Realizing that each Jedi was a threat on their own, Dooku abruptly switched tactics. He lifted Obi-Wan in a choke-hold, simultaneously kicking Anakin out of the way and hurling Kenobi across the room, bringing down a section of walkway to trap him there. However, in expending all his energy to dispatch Kenobi, the Count was left helpless before Skywalker's rage." -- The Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 32

Yeah this quote is fake lol