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Latham2000
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on May 30th 2020, 4:34 pm
How is it fake? It's been quoted many times, the first time it showed up on the forums was when someone posted it on ShootingNova's Dooku respect thread back in 2016, so if it's fake, someone else forged it. Nonetheless, Stover's RotS novel does put emphasis on Dooku exerting a concerning amount of power to dispatch Kenobi, and that he had to replenish himself in the opportune pause afterwards.
KingofBlades
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on May 30th 2020, 5:22 pm
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How is it fake? It's been quoted many times, the first time it showed up on the forums was when someone posted it on ShootingNova's Dooku respect thread back in 2016, so if it's fake, someone else forged it.


The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Unknown


Nonetheless, Stover's RotS novel does put emphasis on Dooku exerting a concerning amount of power to dispatch Kenobi, and that he had to replenish himself in the opportune pause afterwards.


Funny you should bring up Stover, here are some quotes from the adult novel that indicate the exact opposite of what you claim


Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.



Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—


I can't help but ask, have you actually read this novel?


To top it all off, here's a quote from the very same source maker you originally cited that has Dooku easily swatting Kenobi aside;


The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Image0
Vader's Legacy
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on May 30th 2020, 11:29 pm
easily swatting aside someone not prepared for the punch. Like you guys are basically arguing suckerpunching someone is a display of superiority
KingofBlades
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on May 30th 2020, 11:49 pm
Nice strawman. I'm simply responding to the claim that Tking Kenobi required a large amount of force reserves on Dooku's part.
Meatpants
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The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Empty Re: The PT apprentice uprising

on May 31st 2020, 1:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Trayus Marauder wrote:Thus this idea that some have (not pointing fingers at anyone specifically) where the quote should not be used is highly flawed.

Nobody is saying the quote can't be used. It just doesn't fit the scope you want it to.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Naturally, we should analyse and assess the quote to find the most logical interpretation/conclusion and then go from there. While on the subject of this quote, the interpretation of Vader being compared to Dooku and Maul in terms of their weakness compared to Sidious does not necessarily contradict the conclusions that I have drawn. Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall and one of those common attributes can be their position under Sidious.

Your whole premise breaks down with "Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall and one of those common attributes can be their position under Sidious." Instead of approaching this from a logical viewpoint, you're inserting your own interpretation into the text. Just because the text does not contradict your conclusion, that doesn't mean the conclusion is true - especially when that conclusion is not made clear in said text. He goes from being as strong as the Emperor to being not as strong as the Emperor. He could have cited anyone weaker than the Emperor, and the premise would hold. Provide proof for "Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall" that couldn't be chalked down to them all being Sidious' apprentices and all being weaker than the Emperor - which was the topic of the paragraph.

We should be using hard facts when establishing Vader's power level, not a possible interpretation that could be taken out of the text and the text would still make sense. Think about it this way: the text would still make sense if Lucas wasn't comparing the three apprentices in power; but it wouldn't make sense if Lucas wasn't talking about how Vader is alike to the other two in being subservient to the Emperor. The burden of proof is on you to prove without a doubt that Lucas is approximating the three apprentices in power. Yes, he is comparing the three in power, but it's their power relative to the Emperor (aka weaker).

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Note that this quote is making reference to filming and choreography, not necessarily augmentation speeds.

Let's look at it again:

Then when we move to the Prequel, where there were Jedi and they were full flower and fighting as they were in the past, you know, well trained Jedi, then we had to make the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought.

Lucas made a massive effort to improve the choreography because Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan represent the Jedi at "full flower", "fighting as they were in the past". Note how he says "we had to make the sword fights much much faster". The guy is literally saying that he had to make these fighters much much faster to sell the idea that they're the Jedi at full flower. It doesn't help your case that Lucas justified Vader and Luke progressing as fighters from ANH to ROTJ via the use of faster choreography either, so there's no reason to dispute this point. Really, the problem with your interpretation of Lucas' viewpoint is that you're attacking his justification for the TPM fighters being better fighters, not because there's any grounds for that not being true in his quotes. Lucas uses better choreography in order to demonstrate better fighters. You may not like that idea, but that's what it is.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:Naturally, given Vader's hindered mobility, Ben's old age and Luke's general lack of knowledge when it comes to certain saber forms, acrobatics and super fast-paced dueling would not occur. Instead, all three are seen in duels where the aim is the control of space and positioning. This is easier to film and as established in later lore, fits in with their choice of form. The dueling choreography being faster does not necessarily make the individual faster. After all, the Maul/Jinn/Kenobi fight was faster than the Sidious/Windu fight in terms of overall movement usage. Despite this, Mace and Sidious are certainly not slower than the TPM trio.

All this is forgetting that Lucas has priority over everything; he didn't go into this thinking about the nuances of Vader's fighting form relative to that of TPM Kenobi. We know that Lucas correlates improved choreography with better swordfighting. And again, Lucas' justification for these things is totally irrelevant, no matter how much you don't like it. Also, I don't see how this quote could be rationalised as meaning Kenobi leverages his lightsaber in a different way when he's explicitly "much much faster" than Vader.

@Trayus Marauder wrote:A. How was ANH Vader able to genuinely contend with resurrection Maul when Maul is "far more powerful"?

Let's assume that Resurrection is useable material, this still doesn't contradict what we're told by Insider and Lucas. Kenobi does way better against Maul than Vader. Let's make some comparisons:

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Unknown

vs.

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 43g1ys

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:Obi-Wan's lightsaber came up fast and swept through the pommel of Maul's weapon. One half of Maul's lightsaber shattered, leaving his left hand clutching what amounted to a still-functional single blade. Before he could react, Obi-Wan kicked him in the chest and he was sent sprawling onto his back near the edge of the core.

---

Or this:

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Unknown

vs. this:

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 43g2jc

The Wrath of Darth Maul wrote:The Jedi moved with the kick, letting it carry him into a backflip.

---

So, an Obi-Wan hindered by his rage is moving faster than Vader and displays more durability in the same scenarios, and this is while Maul is growing stronger and feeding off Kenobi's anger as well. Really, Vader's durability is all that's keeping him in the fight, especially when this happened:

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Unknown

---

@Trayus Marauder wrote:B. How does Vader even as early as TFU scale above PT characters if people like TPM Kenobi are far superior to RotJ Vader according to this quote? Keep in mind that Lucas oversaw TFU. Considering this, would he really allow scaling like that if his vision was PT>OT?

Which PT characters did Vader beat that scale above TPM Kenobi? Not singling you out here, but a number of people have recently tried to argue this point by showing how Vader was beating no-name Jedi with nothing by generic accolades to establish how strong they are. What people are forgetting is that TPM Obi-Wan is an insane prodigy who at 25 years old is approaching his 60 year old master, who's considered one of the ablest swordsmen in the Order, hyped up as an elite tier Jedi, trained by Dooku, insane potential, best of the younglings of his generation etc. The only thing holding Kenobi back at the beginning of the movie is his inability to follow the will of the living Force, a detriment he grows out of during the course of the film. Kenobi is arguably better than many on the council with a lightsaber, so it's not like Vader being below Kenobi is a meme or lowballing.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on May 31st 2020, 2:09 am
wow, vaderites, yall gonna let roan get killed off like that?
CuckedCurry
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on May 31st 2020, 3:05 am
@Meatpants wrote:So, an Obi-Wan hindered by his rage is moving faster than Vader

Although he proved victorious against Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan presented a much greater challenge. Maul did, once again, seemingly defeat the Jedi, but Obi-Wan relied upon the power of the Force to vanquish the Sith warrior.

Nice, so base TPM Obi-Wan>>”hindered” Obi-Wan>>>Qui-Gon per your own admission The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 3344068304


Last edited by CuckedCurry on May 31st 2020, 5:28 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
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on May 31st 2020, 3:49 am
Yes Curry, I now have the Kenobi who has learnt to focus on the living Force > Jinn.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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on May 31st 2020, 5:59 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
How is it fake? It's been quoted many times, the first time it showed up on the forums was when someone posted it on ShootingNova's Dooku respect thread back in 2016, so if it's fake, someone else forged it.


The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Unknown


Then I'm sorry that I didn't know that I unwittingly cited a fake quote The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 1076326320

Funny you should bring up Stover, here are some quotes from the adult novel that indicate the exact opposite of what you claim

Funny you should bring up Stover, here are some quotes from the adult novel that indicate the exact opposite of what you claim


Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:He gathered the Force once more in a single indrawn breath that summoned power from throughout the universe; the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist, sent Kenobi flying backward to crash hard against the wall, but Dooku didn't have time to enjoy it.

Revenge of the Sith--Adult Novelization wrote:That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith—

I can't help but ask, have you actually read this novel?

To top it all off, here's a quote from the very same source maker you originally cited that has Dooku easily swatting Kenobi aside;

I rechecked the novel, so I partially misremembered. However, the first quote you've cited is talking about Dooku Force pushing Obi-Wan at a wall, it's not talking about Dooku kicking Kenobi off the rails and accelerating his fall with an added Force push, the second quote says seemingly, that third quote is talking about the initial stages of them locking blades. What I misremembered was that the novel says Dooku says that he put a "surge" of "energy" or "dark power" to dispatch Obi-Wan, and then he had to replenish himself afterwards in an opportune pause, but I forgot Dooku did other actions that he put a "surge" into e.g. locking blades with Anakin, kicking Anakin and cushioning his own fall.
NotAA3
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on May 31st 2020, 6:58 am
@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Meatpants stomping
KingofBlades
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on May 31st 2020, 10:16 am
@Latham2000 Bro, the quotes don't have to be referring to the same exact moment that you were referring to. The point was to see how easily Stover(since you decided to appeal to him) thinks Dooku is able to dispatch Kenobi. And by all indicators, Stover believes Dooku is capable of doing so easily. The final quote runs of the same principle, it doesn't have to be referring to the final time Dooku Tked Kenobi, it's only serving as an indicator for how easily Dooku can take out Kenobi. I realize you unwittingly staked a claim upon a house of cards, but this grasping at straws thing is sad. You appealed to the wrong source bro, just take the L
Latham2000
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on May 31st 2020, 10:51 am
@KingofBlades I didn't make the argumebt that Dooku expended a lot of energy from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall, so your point is moot, and I don't care about. I'll admit that I unwittingly cited a false quote, so the idea that Dooku literally expended all of his energy on dispatching Kenobi is false, you seem to be forgetting that I dropped that argument, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
KingofBlades
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on May 31st 2020, 11:16 am
Latham wrote:I didn't make the argumebt that Dooku expended a lot of energy from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall, so your point is moot,

No but you made the erroneous claim that Dooku expended a lot of energy choking Kenobi. And once it was proven that was false, you fell back on Stover to save you. The quotes I provided was done to illustrate how retarded it was to use Stover as a defense. The quotes not being directly about the force choke doesn't alter that.

Latham wrote:I'll admit that I unwittingly cited a false quote, so the idea that Dooku literally expended all of his energy on dispatching Kenobi is false, you seem to be forgetting that I dropped that argument, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
Despite dropping the argument, you tried arguing the semantics of the quotes I provided as what I can only assume was an attempt to save face. I mean why else would you argue something that was very obviously not the reason I provided those quotes? It's alright bro, you can't win em all.

As a parting gift, here's a cool quote that I've been made aware of.
The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Image012
Huh? Vader's looking for a way to ragdoll weak old Ben, but is unable to. Surely not so. I mean, imagine the implications if one were to compare this with Dooku twice ragdolling Kenobi the very moment he decides to.
The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 3344068304
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on May 31st 2020, 11:32 am
Almost everyone gets thrown around the moment their opponent decides to really. The reason is that people never attack until they sense an opening. This is of course not true for TOR related material since their philosophy is that everyone is always actively defending generally without any lapse and that the opponent has to overpower their barrier to throw them by employing power
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on May 31st 2020, 11:47 am
I go away for a few days and this thread turns into "let's throw every old argument there is at the other person."
Latham2000
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on May 31st 2020, 12:28 pm
@KingOfBlades

No but you made the erroneous claim that Dooku expended a lot of energy choking Kenobi. And once it was proven that was false, you fell back on Stover to save you. The quotes I provided was done to illustrate how retarded it was to use Stover as a defense. The quotes not being directly about the force choke doesn't alter that.

I fell back on Stover's novel before I rechecked it after I realised I incorrectly remembered it, which was after you showed me the quote of Dooku easily knocking Obi-Wan against a wall with a Force push and Dooku seemingly strike down Obi-Wan without effort.

Despite dropping the argument, you tried arguing the semantics of the quotes I provided as what I can only assume was an attempt to save face. I mean why else would you argue something that was very obviously not the reason I provided those quotes? It's alright bro, you can't win em all.

The fact that you think I made an attempt to save face is not an argument, I argued the terminology of the text talking about Dooku BFRing Obi-Wan, which happened after he knocked Obi-Wan against a wall with a Force push, because I didn't actually make the argument that Dooku exerted himself from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall. The fact that Dooku used a "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to knock Obi-Wan against a wall, does not contradict the later text that says he used "last burst of dark power" to kick Obi-Wan off the rails and "sent a surge of energy through the Force" to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall. The use of terminology conveys that Dooku put more effort into BFRing Obi-Wan than he did with the action of unleashing a Force push that knocked Obi-Wan against a wall.

As a parting gift, here's a cool quote that I've been made aware of.

Enlarge this image Click to see fullsize
The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Image012
Huh? Vader's looking for a way to ragdoll weak old Ben, but is unable to. Surely not so. I mean, imagine the implications if one were to compare this with Dooku twice ragdolling Kenobi the very moment he decides to.
The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 3344068304

Thanks for the parting gift, but I would've preferred that the party gift was a weapon that removed the coronavirus from existence. This is a red herring to our discussion though, because we weren't arguing Dooku vs Vader.
KingofBlades
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on May 31st 2020, 1:42 pm
I fell back on Stover's novel before I rechecked it after I realised I incorrectly remembered it, which was after you showed me the quote of Dooku easily knocking Obi-Wan against a wall with a Force push and Dooku seemingly strike down Obi-Wan without effort.


This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. You said my point was moot because you never argued, "Dooku expended a lot of energy from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall". I responded by agreeing with you that you didn't argue this, then went on summarizing your actual argument and why I brought up the quotes I did. That's all lmao.



The fact that you think I made an attempt to save face is not an argument, I argued the terminology of the text talking about Dooku BFRing Obi-Wan, which happened after he knocked Obi-Wan against a wall with a Force push, because I didn't actually make the argument that Dooku exerted himself from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall. The fact that Dooku used a "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to knock Obi-Wan against a wall, does not contradict the later text that says he used "last burst of dark power" to kick Obi-Wan off the rails and "sent a surge of energy through the Force" to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall. The use of terminology conveys that Dooku put more effort into BFRing Obi-Wan than he did with the action of unleashing a Force push that knocked Obi-Wan against a wall.


You're missing the point once again. The quotes were only brought up to illustrate Stover's view on how much energy it takes for Dooku to take out Kenobi in a more broad sense. A massively fatigued Dooku using up the last bit of his reserves to knock Kenobi out with a force augmented kick, does not contradict the energy Dooku needs to rag-doll Kenobi with TK being minuscule . It doesn't even imply the kick itself required a large portion of Dooku's reserves, since Dooku was pretty much running on empty by that point.The surge of energy quote is irrelevant as well, since it occurs after Kenobi has already been knocked out(his body being limp). 


Ultimately, my main point has been that according to Stover, Dooku does not need to expend a large amount of energy to dispatch Kenobi, something Stover indicates twice over. I'm aware you've dropped the argument, but don't try arguing the semantics anyways when they fail to counter this point. 


Thanks for the parting gift, but I would've preferred that the party gift was a weapon that removed the coronavirus from existence. This is a red herring to our discussion though, because we weren't arguing Dooku vs Vader.

When did I say it was relevant to this discussion? I just thought it was a cool quote that I wanted to share with you bro. Seems like you straw manned me brao. The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 1668617588
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on May 31st 2020, 1:56 pm
I mean, by saying TPM Maul~Dooku, you automatically say Dooku>Vader The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 4037459623
Latham2000
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on May 31st 2020, 2:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KingOfBlades

This has absolutely nothing to do with anything. You said my point was moot because you never argued, "Dooku expended a lot of energy from Force pushing Obi-Wan against a wall". I responded by agreeing with you that you didn't argue this, then went on summarizing your actual argument and why I brought up the quotes I did. That's all lmao.

So?

You're missing the point once again. The quotes were only brought up to illustrate Stover's view on how much energy it takes for Dooku to take out Kenobi in a more broad sense. A massively fatigued Dooku using up the last bit of his reserves to knock Kenobi out with a force augmented kick, does not contradict the energy Dooku needs to rag-doll Kenobi with TK being minuscule . It doesn't even imply the kick itself required a large portion of Dooku's reserves, since Dooku was pretty much running on empty by that point. The surge of energy quote is irrelevant as well, since it occurs after Kenobi has already been knocked out(his body being limp).

Ultimately, my main point has been that according to Stover, Dooku does not need to expend a large amount of energy to dispatch Kenobi, something Stover indicates twice over. I'm aware you've dropped the argument, but don't try arguing the semantics anyways when they fail to counter this point.

So you're appealing to Stover's authorial intent? I can play that same game by argue that Dooku did not minuscule amounts of energy given that Stover uses "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to emphasie Dooku knocking Obi-Wan against a wall with ease, whereas he uses "last burst of dark power" to kick Obi-Wan off the rails and "sent a surge of energy through the Force" to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall, rather than once against using "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall. The surge of energy text isn't irrelevant, because it's a description of the concentrated telekinetic attackk that Dooku used to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall. My point is that Dooku puts more effort into dispatching Obi-Wan with his kick and added Force blast, than he did with shoving Obi-Wan against a wall. You should also check out this thread if you haven't read it because it fleshes out Dooku's victory more: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3075-obi-wan-vs-count-dooku-obi-wan-lost-because-dooku-was-familiar-with-his-form

When did I say it was relevant to this discussion? I just thought it was a cool quote that I wanted to share with you bro. Seems like you straw manned me brao. The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 1668617588

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 39523600 Brao, saying that your quote a red herring is not a strawman unless if you're trolling, a strawman is when you misrepresent someone else's argument to make it look like you defeated their argument.
KingofBlades
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on May 31st 2020, 3:39 pm
So you're appealing to Stover's authorial intent? I can play that same game by argue that Dooku did not minuscule amounts of energy given that Stover uses "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to emphasie Dooku knocking Obi-Wan against a wall with ease, whereas he uses "last burst of dark power" to kick Obi-Wan off the rails and "sent a surge of energy through the Force" to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall, rather than once against using "the slightest whipcrack of that power, negligent as a flick of his wrist," to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall.



Again I have to ask, have you read this novel? By the time Dooku kicks Kenobi, he's insanely fatigued trying to survive Anakin's offensive onslaught:


The first overhand chop of Skywalker's blade slid off Dooku's instinctive guard. The second bent Dooku's wrist. The third flash of blue forced Dooku's scarlet blade so far to the inside that his own lightsaber scorched his shoulder, and Dooku was forced to give ground. Dooku felt himself blanch. Where had this come from? Skywalker came on, mechanically inexorable, impossibly powerful, a destroyer droid with a lightsaber: each step a blow and each blow a step. Dooku backed away as fast as he dared; Skywalker stayed right on top of him. Dooku's breath went short and hard. He no longer tried to block Skywalker's strikes but only to guide them slanting away; he could not meet Skywalker strength-to-strength—not only did the boy wield tremendous reserves of Force energy, but his sheer physical power was astonishing—




Revenge of the Sith--Adult NovelizationThe shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker— Skywalker was getting stronger. Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade. He decided he'd best revise his strategy once again. He no longer even tried to strike back. Force exhaustion began to close down his perceptions, drawing his consciousness back down to his physical form, trapping him within his own skull until he could barely even feel the contours of the room around him; he dimly sensed stairs at his back, stairs that led up to the entrance balcony. He retreated up them, using the higher ground for leverage, but Skywalker just kept on coming, tire- lessly ferocious.



As I stated earlier, Stover using "last burst of dark power" doesn't indicate anything, Stover has already portrayed Dooku as extremely tired when he performs the feat. if in a novel a runner runs a marathon and is bordering on exhaustion and is stated to "use his last burst of energy" to sprint the final 50 meters, that doesn't mean that amount of energy is significant compared to his total reserves. It doesn't even imply it. What it does imply is that the runner is extraordinarily tired, as running only 50 meters used up all of the runner's remaining energy. Lines like the runner example or Stover's are meant to emphasize the fatigue of the person performing their respective feats. That's it. To act like Stover is insinuating that the energy Dooku used to kick kenobi is greater than the energy used to TK him when he was fresh is asinine.


The surge of energy text isn't irrelevant, because it's a description of the concentrated telekinetic attack that Dooku used to accelerate Obi-Wan's fall. 



But the only reason you're making this comparison is to provide some insight on the power dynamic between Dooku and Kenobi, something that goes back to your initial claim with the fake quote. And in this context the surge quote is irrelevant, it occurs after Kenobi has already been "dispatched" by the kick. Meaning it provides no insight to the root purpose of the comparison. Only the kick itself is relevant, and for reasons I've already explained, there's no viable way to prove more energy or effort was used in the kick than the TK. You can't even prove the kick+surge required more energy than the TK via how much effort it took since Dooku's fatigue was far greater when he performed the former feat. X feat might require less total energy to perform than Y feat, but if you're more tired when performing X feat, it may require more effort.


 My point is that Dooku puts more effort into dispatching Obi-Wan with his kick and added Force blast, than he did with shoving Obi-Wan against a wall.



That's a goal post switch brao. This convo has been about the amount of energy Dooku used, not the degree of effort he required to perform the feat. While I think its plausible that it took more effort for Dooku to kick Kenobi than TKing him since he was far more fatigued when he performed the kick, there's no indication that more energy was used. Which is the actual topic of discussion here


Last edited by KingofBlades on May 31st 2020, 4:10 pm; edited 5 times in total
Latham2000
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on May 31st 2020, 3:53 pm
@KingofBlades You know what, you're right, I'll concede.
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on June 1st 2020, 12:41 am
@Latham2000

@Latham2000 wrote:Lucas explicitly states that he and the choreagraphers of the Prequels made the sword fights much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive "in terms the way they're fought," i.e. he's talking about how the Jedi of the prequels fight in contrast to the Jedi of the original trilogy. We can argue all day about what Lucas was thinking when he said this, but that's appealing to Lucas's private thoughts, which is fallacious what is actually G canon is what Lucas says, Lucas's private thoughts that he hasn't shared are not G canon. My argument of appealing to the fighting styles that Kenobi/Jinn use however in contrast to Vader, actually serves an in universe explanation of why Jinn and Kenobi are "much much faster, much more sophisticated and much more aggressive in terms of the way they’re fought" in terms of how they fight in comparison to Vader, they simply leverage and exert their speed a lot more than Vader does, which is perfectly feasible for them not just because of their chosen techniques, but also because they don't have to deal with the cybernetics that have hampered Vader's movements.

Yes, they're much much faster in terms of the way they're fought, i.e. Kenobi is a better sword fighter. Let's look at this logically.



George Lucas wrote:In every episode, from 4, 5 and 6, I kept improving the sword fighting because the assumption was, is that Luke is getting to be a better fighter, he was learning more; but at the same time he still wasn't... uh, being trained as an original Jedi would have been trained.

Lucas is correlating better choreography with better fighters. He improved the choreography, it got faster and more complicated because Luke was becoming a better duelist. Lucas is also mentioning that Luke isn't trained like an original Jedi would have been. This segues then into the stuff we've already gone over, where he explains that now we're dealing with Jedi who were trained properly, and that as a result, at least Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan were "much much faster" than Luke. There's no reason to believe that Lucas goes from explaining improved choreography = better fighters to talking about a shift in styles. They're fought at a much much faster pace because Kenobi is much much faster than Luke. He's a powerful prodigy who's been trained the proper way.

@Latham2000 wrote:That Insider quote states that Qui-Gon demonstrated far more power than the Jedi of the original trilogy had, but I can argue that it's about overt applications that are depicted onscreen in that Qui-Gon exerts and leverages his power more than the Jedi of the original trilogy, you're arguing that this Insider quote is literally saying that Qui-Gon has more Force power/reserves than the Jedi of the original trilogy, but this doesn't just include Luke and Vader in your equation, it also includes old Ben Kenobi by your logic, which backfires because old Ben is factually at least as power as his RotS self, I've given 2 quotes that explicitly state it in conjunction with additional quote that states that Ben honed his Force skills, whilst also explaining why these quotes conceptually make sense in the light of what old Ben was doing in is exile i.e. studying the living Force to achieve immortality, and you virtually conceded to that. Qui-Gon isn't more powerful than RotS Obi-Wan.

Old Ben is irrelevant. Let's say for argument's sake that you're correct in that Ben is ~/> ROTS Kenobi in Force power. Because his lightsaber and physical skills are so out of whack, and because he never displays his Force powers in any meaningful way, there's no display from which to scale off. However, we know Vader and Luke both improve considerably from IU, OOU and Lucas improving the choreography to show this. By ROTJ, Luke and Vader are equal in power and as sword fighters (citations will be provided if needed). But enraged Luke is amped beyond that, thus becoming more powerful and a better duelist as a result than Vader. In fact, the Emperor explicitly notes how Luke's final attack was a display of power "Your hate has made you powerful." And yes, a lightsaber demonstration is a display of power, it's an activity that actively exhausts you in less than a minute if you're going all-out. Physicals are irrelevant because you're augmenting them through the Force. So Kenobi is much more potent with a lightsaber than the Luke that took out Vader in half a minute.

@Latham2000 wrote:But what happened when it came to their lightsaber duel? Yoda was winning the fight, virtually every depiction of their fight e.g. AotC novel, AotC junior novel, AotC script, AotC comic book, AotC Mighty Chronicles etc. depicts Yoda as winning and Dooku losing, but Yoda congratulated Dooku on fighting well. Granted, Yoda didn't actually win the fight, but that's because Dooku distracted Yoda by collapsing a large object on Anakin and Obi-Wan in an attempt to kill them, giving himself the opportunity to run away from Yoda. Yoda didn't win because the fight itself was disrupted, but that doesn't change the fact that he was winnning the lightsaber duel against Dooku, whereas neither Yoda or Dooku gained an advantage over each other in their telekinetic clash. I shouldn't even need to bring up an example.

Nobody argued that there's a direct 1:1 correlation between power and lightsaber dueling, the argument is that it's a strong correlation. If you're serious about lightsaber dueling (that is, you actually practice with one and hone your skills), then your prowess is going to be a good indicator of how powerful you are. Dooku exhausted Yoda after a half minute of dueling:

Attack of the Clones: Adult Novelisation wrote:Yoda grabbed the crane and held it fast, but in doing so, he had to release Dooku. The Count wasted no time, sprinting away, leaping up the ramp to his sail ship. As Yoda began to move the fallen crane harmlessly aside, the sail ship's engine roared to life, and all three Jedi watched helplessly as Count Dooku blasted away.

As Anakin and Obi-Wan walked over to the exhausted Yoda, Padme rushed in, running to Anakin and wrapping the sorely wounded young man in a tight, desperate hug.

"A dark day, it is," Yoda said quietly.

If you can exhaust Yoda in a duel, that's a strong indicator that you can contend with him quite well in the Force as well, it just happens to be that he's in fact equal to Yoda in this scenario. So yes, Dooku's lightsaber display in AOTC is a display of power that indicates he's Yoda realm in power.

@Latham2000 wrote:All what that quote actually says is that Vader removed restrictions from his suit and his injuries from Mustafar. The quote doesn't say that Vader's lightsaber prowess improved to a higher degree than his Force powers to the point that he's equally capable with a lightsaber as he is with the Force, you have no reason to assume that RotJ Vader's lightsaber augmentation would give us "a pretty good approximation of his Force power," this is an assumption that you're shoe horning in your quote, and I've already addressed the Insider quote. The quote that I provided simply states that Vader is more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber, it does not say that the restrictions of Vader's suit and injuries is the reason why he's more capable with the Force than he is with a lightsaber. And there is Fightsaber saying that Vader's movements were restricted by his cybernetics even up until RotJ.

All this is totally irrelevant because (1) as I've shown he's minimalised how much the suit is keeping him back dueling wise and (2) these gaps are totally irrelevant when his power in the Force scales directly off of Luke, who is his equal in that regard.

Thus, the scaling becomes quite simple. Vader and Luke are Force equals as of ROTJ, Luke's rage makes him "more powerful" and thus goes from being his father's equal as a duelist to his superior. The subsequent fight is a display of power from Luke that correlates to Force power beyond Vader's, and the Insider quote says that Qui-Gon's lightsaber duel against Maul was a much better display of power than enraged Luke's attack on Vader. Thus, Qui-Gon is more powerful than Vader, and a better duelist.
O-Siri
O-Siri

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Empty Re: The PT apprentice uprising

on June 1st 2020, 4:19 pm
Yoda was exhausted because the fight was over and he stopped using Force augmentation. He fought longer and harder with Sidious. The very script made it clear Dooku was not remotely in Yoda’s class.
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LOTL

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Empty Re: The PT apprentice uprising

on June 2nd 2020, 4:10 am
MP, why the change of opinion on Obi Wan being actually hindered by rage?
Trayus Marauder
Trayus Marauder

The PT apprentice uprising - Page 2 Empty Re: The PT apprentice uprising

on June 2nd 2020, 10:35 am
{@=8}Meatpants{/@} wrote:d='8' class='mentiontag' title='Viewing profile: Meatpants'>@Meatpants wrote:[/mention] wrote:
Your whole premise breaks down with "Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall and one of those common attributes can be their position under Sidious." Instead of approaching this from a logical viewpoint, you're inserting your own interpretation into the text. Just because the text does not contradict your conclusion, that doesn't mean the conclusion is true - especially when that conclusion is not made clear in said text. He goes from being as strong as the Emperor to being not as strong as the Emperor. He could have cited anyone weaker than the Emperor, and the premise would hold. Provide proof for "Given Vader is placed right next to Maul and Dooku, this suggests that they are comparable overall" that couldn't be chalked down to them all being Sidious' apprentices and all being weaker than the Emperor - which was the topic of the paragraph.

We should be using hard facts when establishing Vader's power level, not a possible interpretation that could be taken out of the text and the text would still make sense. Think about it this way: the text would still make sense if Lucas wasn't comparing the three apprentices in power; but it wouldn't make sense if Lucas wasn't talking about how Vader is alike to the other two in being subservient to the Emperor. The burden of proof is on you to prove without a doubt that Lucas is approximating the three apprentices in power. Yes, he is comparing the three in power, but it's their power relative to the Emperor (aka weaker).

If my aim was simply to insert my view, then why would I go out of my way to acknowledge an alternate viewpoint and address it prior to any comments being made. Section 2 and your perspective don't exactly match up. Your assessment of my intent aside, let's go to the breakdown of the quote itself. Note that Lucas did not cite just anyone. He noted Dooku and Maul specifically. Don't you think that labeling two characters to compare directly to Vader would be for some kind of purpose? If the aim was merely to establish weakness compared to Sidious, he could have easily said something like "Vader was as strong as Sidious but no anymore". It would have taken less time to say, would have still answered the interviewer's question, and would keep the focus on Vader/Sidious who were the main topic of the overall interview. The fact that Lucas went out of his way to make the threeway comparison leads me (and others) to see this as an intentional line made to create a rough scaling where they can compare to each other in overall power as well as how weak they are compared to Sidious. So, if one were to make a tier list, all three would be facing a similar gap compared to Sidious. 

As for your point about how the quote could make sense if Vader is like Dooku/Maul in the sense that they are all servants of the emperor, this ignores two key aspects of the quote. The first being that Anakin is used within the comparison. Anakin was a servant of Sidious even prior to his injuries yet he is separated from Maul/Dooku/Vader despite their role of the apprentice being similar. Second, the quote refers directly to how strong Vader was and is. Master/apprentice positions do not dictate strength. You even said yourself that you think TPM Kenobi>Jinn which further proves my point. 

{@=8}Meatpants{/@} wrote:d='8' class='mentiontag' title='Viewing profile: Meatpants'>@Meatpants wrote:[/mention] wrote:Lucas made a massive effort to improve the choreography because Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan represent the Jedi at "full flower", "fighting as they were in the past". Note how he says "we had to make the sword fights much much faster". The guy is literally saying that he had to make these fighters much much faster to sell the idea that they're the Jedi at full flower. It doesn't help your case that Lucas justified Vader and Luke progressing as fighters from ANH to ROTJ via the use of faster choreography either, so there's no reason to dispute this point. Really, the problem with your interpretation of Lucas' viewpoint is that you're attacking his justification for the TPM fighters being better fighters, not because there's any grounds for that not being true in his quotes. Lucas uses better choreography in order to demonstrate better fighters. You may not like that idea, but that's what it is.


This quote has a few flaws within it that limit its viability in the wider context of EU comparison. First off, Jedi in full flower would be referring to their status in the galaxy as the Jedi were undeniably at their peak in terms of presence in the galaxy. Y'know, many thousands compared to a handful. Next, the well-trained point is outright contradicted by numerous sources detailing the saber mastery Vader gained via the implementation of his hybrid form. We also have Nick Gillard placing Kenobi's skill at an 8 which would not have deteriorated to point where he would be considered less than well-trained. As for the speed and aggression, this does not translate to more power. By that logic, Ataru/Juyo users would always triumph. And again, I refer to the Sidious/Windu fight which was slower yet that duo are undeniably more skilled which further denies the idea that dueling speed translates to overall power. 


All this is forgetting that Lucas has priority over everything; he didn't go into this thinking about the nuances of Vader's fighting form relative to that of TPM Kenobi. We know that Lucas correlates improved choreography with better swordfighting. And again, Lucas' justification for these things is totally irrelevant, no matter how much you don't like it. Also, I don't see how this quote could be rationalised as meaning Kenobi leverages his lightsaber in a different way when he's explicitly "much much faster" than Vader.

The much faster quote can easily and logically be used to compare Vader and Kenobi from a choreography standpoint. While the Maul/Kenobi fight is filled with jumps, flips and general faster movement, the Vader/Luke fight focuses more on ground control which is a more slow-paced form of dueling though still quite effective as we see on Mustafar. And using your interpretation of Lucas' vision, faster dueling equals better dueling yet Kenobi engages in slower duels than the one we see in TPM. Examples include the Grievous and Dooku fights. And it's not as of TPM can be argued above RotS in terms of Kenobi appearances so the conclusion doesn't stack up. Lucas does have absolute power but that does not mean that your interpretation of a Lucas quote is bulletproof like his direct quotes are. At least with my Vader quote breakdown, I go through why it is the most logical interpretation but in the case of your faster dueling translating to skill views, they are quite easily challenged/contradicted with G-canon and C-canon material. 


For your next section, before we continue, it should be noted that Resurrection is most certainly usable given that Resurrection Maul's capabilities are made to perfectly mirror TPM Maul. We also have confirmation of its C-canon status as seen with the following quote:

Kalakar Six: A moon reputed to be the site of a climatic confrontation between Darth Vader and a resurrected Darth Maul.

Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


As for your uses of Resurrection:

Example 1-the saber chopping:

This attempt to establish Kenobi as being better via direct comparison doesn't necessarily work. To put this simply, Kenobi's opening was primarily due to the element of surprise. In the case of Resurrection, Maul had seen this move done before and so he took it in his stride and proceeded with the duel by changing his stance right away. However, in the TPM case, this was a case of utter shock that his saber was essentially broken and by a padawan no less. The evidence you use to try and support Kenobi actually supports this concept as it specifically notes that Kenobi kicked "before he (Maul) could react". Given that Maul was reacting to all of Kenobi's saber strikes, how can he suddenly not react to a slower attack like a kick? Unless he had some magical drop in speed, the logical conclusion was a fraction of shock that resulted in his guard dropping which Kenobi could exploit to an extent. 

Example 2- Maul's kick:

I don't really see how this proves any point. Vader reacted by tanking the hit and proceeding with the fight while Kenobi flipped and continued. In both cases, Maul's kick didn't do any damage to the opponent and neither fighter faced any major disadvantage as a result of the kick being used. If you're implying that Kenobi flipping just after the kick makes him more impressive then I'd point out that acrobatics isn't exactly Vader's style. Rather, he tanks hits and continues like the juggernaut that he is. Again, an example of faster not equaling better. 


Also, sources for Maul feeding and growing stronger as well as Kenobi being hindered?

Now for some Resurrection notes that highlight how Vader's performance was better than Kenobi:


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This shows that Vader possesses the kinetic force to overpower Maul in a saberlock and it also shows that he is able to create enough breathing room to exploit the force to a certain extent. 

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Maul notes that Vader is capable of standing his ground and then proceeds to cheapshot him by destroying the floor. On the other hand, Maul is capable of winning against Kenobi via a simple case of TK exploitation.

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Here the prophets note that they are very evenly matched. Then they proceed to wrongly assume that Vader will lose due to the light within him. Kenobi certainly can't mirror this claim given he only held his own for a short period and was then dominated by telekinesis. 

{@=8}Meatpants{/@} wrote:d='8' class='mentiontag' title='Viewing profile: Meatpants'>@Meatpants wrote:[/mention] wrote:Which PT characters did Vader beat that scale above TPM Kenobi? Not singling you out here, but a number of people have recently tried to argue this point by showing how Vader was beating no-name Jedi with nothing by generic accolades to establish how strong they are. What people are forgetting is that TPM Obi-Wan is an insane prodigy who at 25 years old is approaching his 60 year old master, who's considered one of the ablest swordsmen in the Order, hyped up as an elite tier Jedi, trained by Dooku, insane potential, best of the younglings of his generation etc. The only thing holding Kenobi back at the beginning of the movie is his inability to follow the will of the living Force, a detriment he grows out of during the course of the film. Kenobi is arguably better than many on the council with a lightsaber, so it's not like Vader being below Kenobi is a meme or lowballing.

While he did not directly beat her, the main example would be Shaak Ti. She can be used given that Vader was able to match Galen until his mindset shift. Keep in mind, the version of Galen that Vader faced is far superior to the version that faced Ti on Felucia. Considering Ti has feats such as being able to casually deflect Galen's lightning at the time, being able to use a TK attack fast enough to catch Grievous off guard as well as her battle against a horde of magnaguards, I daresay she's more impressive than the no-name Jedi that these other people have tried to use.

@Meatpants SI is being weird so just tagging you this way
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