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Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 15th 2020, 10:43 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@S_W_LeGenD:

Since many other members haven't explained in enough detail why this comparison is insufficient with regards to demonstrating Revan's superiority to Kenobi I'll take up the task. To preface, I don't actually believe that Kenobi can win here, I just disagree with your method of assessing the two. Members have already noted that feats against fodder differ in quality depending on medium but they failed to reference any relevant examples to prove that point. To remedy that issue why don't we take a look at this little feat? Mace is capable of taking down a larger quantity of fodder without sweat, and his inferiority to Dooku as of this point is indicated by all pieces of evidence we have on the subject. To be blunt, this comparison is basically worthless, and a look at the two combatants without the use of feats that's quality is dependant on medium favours the good Count. As you've been kind enough to note, Kenobi was dismissed by Dooku in short order, and his lesser Maul can withstand Sidious's TK attacks should he make use of a barrier:

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

What's notable here is that Sids had to subvert his defences to gain the upper hand with TK, implying direct domination of Maul's active barrier is beyond him. Per a variety of source book quotes, Sids is the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived, which puts him above individuals who are capable of demolishing Traya in the way Sids proved unable to against Maul. Maybe next time you attempt to make a case for a character of your choosing you could think a little beforehand?


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on April 16th 2020, 1:52 am; edited 3 times in total
Vader's Legacy
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 15th 2020, 11:33 pm
No based argument legend I agree, Dooku is simply unable to take out these pirates as Revan could
nfactor1995
nfactor1995

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 12:18 am
Revan decisively
BoD
BoD
Level Six
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 12:22 am
@S_W_Legend You'd have a point if you weren't using a medium that massively nerfs its characters. As DC helpfully pointed out, Mace can do this:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 3782462-3387834-3

As of 21 BBY, Mace was at best comparable to Dooku. Then we have TCW Ahsoka, who was so vastly below Dooku at this point being fast enough to blitz Clones:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 FiLQzH

Then we have TCW S1 Obi-Wan (who's ridiculously below TCW Dooku): 

https://youtu.be/ciMbuvfSQtk?t=45

You get the picture. TCW Dooku scales vastly above characters who have either blitzed, ragdolled or escaped being surrounded by multiple opponents at one point without their lightsabers and using only the Force or H2H combat. That means either:

1) The pirates are incredibly skilled, or
2) The pirates captured Dooku because of plot convenience, which is a running trend in TCW.


Revan would have taken care of those pirates, and more.

Revan's inferior Darth Traya flattened/killed about 20 Sith assassins on a moment's notice without the need to draw a lightsaber.


Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize
Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 5471965-7598304148-9DL3z

Bear in mind that Sith assassins are Force-users themselves, and they are all trained to take on Jedi during the KoTOR times. This feat is indicative of the fact that Darth Traya would have no trouble in taking care of 30+ pirates by herself. 

Not comparable. We've seen Kreia frequently uses her draining technique against multiple powerful opponents:

https://youtu.be/Pd1KxGfQAoo?t=406

A technique very few have a defence against. No reason she wouldn't use such a powerful and difficult technique to counter against the assassins. Not seeing how Revan scales from this based on that feat.
Azronger
Azronger
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 10:38 am
@S_W_LeGenD We could apply the same logic to Darth Jadus, who succumbed to a non-Force-sensitive agent in a fight. Does this put a limitation on his Force abilities? The same Jadus who was supposedly second only to the Emperor in power at the time.

_________________
Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Sheev_sig_3
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 2:01 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD:

Since many other members haven't explained in enough detail why this comparison is insufficient with regards to demonstrating Revan's superiority to Kenobi I'll take up the task. To preface, I don't actually believe that Kenobi can win here, I just disagree with your method of assessing the two. Members have already noted that feats against fodder differ in quality depending on medium but they failed to reference any relevant examples to prove that point. To remedy that issue why don't we take a look at this little feat? Mace is capable of taking down a larger quantity of fodder without sweat, and his inferiority to Dooku as of this point is indicated by all pieces of evidence we have on the subject. To be blunt, this comparison is basically worthless, and a look at the two combatants without the use of feats that's quality is dependant on medium favours the good Count. As you've been kind enough to note, Kenobi was dismissed by Dooku in short order, and his lesser Maul can withstand Sidious's TK attacks should he make use of a barrier:

Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

What's notable here is that Sids had to subvert his defences to gain the upper hand with TK, implying direct domination of Maul's active barrier is beyond him. Per a variety of source book quotes, Sids is the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived, which puts him above individuals who are capable of demolishing Traya in the way Sids proved unable to against Maul. Maybe next time you attempt to make a case for a character of your choosing you could think a little beforehand?
Correction: Revan's superiority over Count Dooku was in focus and over Obi-Wan by extension.

Not much about Star Wars make sense actually; this is a FANTASY REALM where dots are difficult to connect and ambiguity factor is very high due to stylistic differences in the mix. This is not science.

The battle-sequence involving Mace Windu does not make sense from a strictly war-fighting standpoint (ask any soldier); droids surrounding Windu and not subjecting him to firepower from a distance? Unless taking Windu as a captive was the motive? This is purely artistic liberty to show how much of a bad@ss Windu is/was. Emphasis mine; this is a medium clearly lacking in realism and cater to a much younger audience.

Nevertheless, Windu affecting so many B2 battle droids around him with a Force Wave is not an extraordinary showing for a Force-user of his caliber given their proximity to him and a jam-packed formation in the mix. Consider following demonstration of power from Darth Malgus for instance:

When the crowd did not respond to his demand, he slammed a fist into his palm and let anger-fueled power explode outward from his body. Screams sounded as the blast shoved everything away from him in all directions.


Bodies flew backward, slammed into one another, into the walls, against and through windows. The transport he'd rode on lurched from the blast. The doors of the medical facility flew from their mounts and crashed to the ground.

Taken from TOR: Deceived

Intensity of the Force Wave was sufficient to affect a massive transport vehicle in the vicinity; every living being who was unfortunate enough to be caught in the wave, perished.

---

Next; you argue that Windu wasn't superior in the ways of the Force than Count Dooku. Therefore, if Windu had subjected Count Dooku to his telekinetic abilities [1 on 1], Windu wouldn't have achieved a breakthrough, right?

Now understand the difference.

Windu's feat against those B2 battle droids is NOT instructive vis-à-vis the dynamic of Count Dooku while surrounded by dozens of pirates led by Hondo. When the B2 battle droids surrounded Windu, they made a critical error (i.e. were jam-packed in their formation); at a closer look, B2 battle droids positioned on the back of first two rings couldn't even shoot at Windu even if they wanted to. Given their proximity to Windu and their ill-advised formation at the time, no wonder Windu found a way to break their formation with a Force Wave. Whom to blame here? Programming of these battle droids OR author of the medium lacking in sense?

The pirates surrounded Count Dooku in such a way that each pirate had his gun drawn and pointed towards him, and they weren't jam-packed in their formation (the pirates were thinking clearly). No wonder Count Dooku was unable to think of an appropriate response for these pirates at the time. As Dave Filoni pointed out, even if Count Dooku had felled 15 pirates in one go, a blaster-bolt would have found its mark on him regardless and he would have dropped dead. This is clearly a LIMITATION of Count Dooku (he cannot absorb blaster-bolts and/or he is unable to produce a Force Wave of the scale that he could have overwhelmed all pirates in the vicinity).

I absolutely believe that Count Dooku would have overwhelmed those b2 battle droids with a Force Wave who had surrounded Windu, given their proximity to the Jedi Master and jam-packed formation. Medium realism is definitely an issue in this case. In fact, a lesser Force-user could pull it off as well.

Now; Revan have affected incredibly powerful Force-users with a Force Wave on two separate occasions; Force-users which have a history of taking on entire contingents of well-armed forces [in isolation] and prevail. Revan was able to affect even Vitiate with a Force Wave (a rarity). Therefore, Revan's superiority over Count Dooku in the ways of the Force is a given and I have explained in my previous post how the former could have defeated those pirates led by Hondo.

Forget Revan for a moment; if those pirates had surrounded Vaylin, do you think they would have prevailed? NOT A CHANCE. Valyin had the capability to absorb blaster-bolts and would have slaughtered them all (without a lightsaber). To give you some idea, Valyin destroyed a much larger and well-armed contingent of Knights of Zakuul who were loyal to her mother, and reduced their massive vehicles to spare parts while at it. Valyin's unprecedented raw power and talents made all the difference in this confrontation; even an entire group of well-trained Jedi could not replicate this feat if they wanted to. Each Knight of Zakuul is supposed to be a match for a well-trained Jedi Knight on average, and entire contingents could be dispatched to defeat/rout forces led by Jedi and/or Sith out in the open otherwise. This is how The Eternal Empire was able to destroy entire formations of the Republic and the Sith Empire in a two-front campaign, and conquered much of the known Galaxy in a span of few years - with superior armed forces and Force-users in the mix. Satele Shan pointed out as much in a conversation.

@BoD wrote:@S_W_Legend You'd have a point if you weren't using a medium that massively nerfs its characters. As DC helpfully pointed out, Mace can do this:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 3782462-3387834-3

As of 21 BBY, Mace was at best comparable to Dooku. Then we have TCW Ahsoka, who was so vastly below Dooku at this point being fast enough to blitz Clones:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 FiLQzH

Then we have TCW S1 Obi-Wan (who's ridiculously below TCW Dooku): 

https://youtu.be/ciMbuvfSQtk?t=45

You get the picture. TCW Dooku scales vastly above characters who have either blitzed, ragdolled or escaped being surrounded by multiple opponents at one point without their lightsabers and using only the Force or H2H combat. That means either:

1) The pirates are incredibly skilled, or
2) The pirates captured Dooku because of plot convenience, which is a running trend in TCW.


Revan would have taken care of those pirates, and more.

Revan's inferior Darth Traya flattened/killed about 20 Sith assassins on a moment's notice without the need to draw a lightsaber.


Enlarge this imageClick to see fullsize
Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 5471965-7598304148-9DL3z

Bear in mind that Sith assassins are Force-users themselves, and they are all trained to take on Jedi during the KoTOR times. This feat is indicative of the fact that Darth Traya would have no trouble in taking care of 30+ pirates by herself. 

Not comparable. We've seen Kreia frequently uses her draining technique against multiple powerful opponents:

https://youtu.be/Pd1KxGfQAoo?t=406

A technique very few have a defence against. No reason she wouldn't use such a powerful and difficult technique to counter against the assassins. Not seeing how Revan scales from this based on that feat.

Go through my explanation above (IN FULL); same argument for you.

Ahsoka's showing is not a valid comparison here because she was fighting in a 'closed setting' and with a handful of clones at best. If Count Dooku was in her shoes, he would have slaughtered these clones without breaking a sweat. I am looking at combat-applicable possibilities for a Force-user in an 'open setting' where dozens of opponents had surrounded him/her; this is a confrontational dynamic in which LIMITATIONS of a Force-user come to light.

Darth Traya's showing is absolutely valid here because she felled about 20 Sith Assassins in an 'open setting' without lifting a finger from a distance (and these are Force-users to begin with); not sure if this is a Force Drain technique (does not look like one). Satele Shan demonstrated a Force power of similar nature, intensity and control when she felled several Sith Warriors among others who had surrounded Jace Malcom and were about to execute him, prior to confronting Darth Malgus on Alderaan.

The pirates were smart enough to surround Count Dooku in the manner that each could shoot at Count Dooku (if necessary); the pirates were smarter than those B2 battle droids who surrounded Windu and established a jam-packed formation while at it (difference between programming and experienced humanoid minds). The pirates might have a measure of well-trained Force-user earlier; so many factors to consider.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 3:59 pm
@Azronger wrote:@S_W_LeGenD We could apply the same logic to Darth Jadus, who succumbed to a non-Force-sensitive agent in a fight. Does this put a limitation on his Force abilities? The same Jadus who was supposedly second only to the Emperor in power at the time.
Cipher Nine is a well-funded and equipped agent of the time. He might be equipped with technologies to negate Force powers because he is actually dispatched to kill Force-users from time-to-time. He might also have received help from his capable allies while at it.

"Imperial agents rely on a huge variety of weaponry and top-secret devices to carry out their covert missions for the Empire." - TOR (Encyclopedia)

Agents are known to use "stealth" clothing with concealed weapons and armor plating during high-risk infiltrations.

Even with all that, the lore suggest that Cipher Nine has little hope in defeating such a powerful Force-user in a direct fight. Because Darth Jadus was planning a coup, Cipher Nine's mission was to draw his attention and keep him busy until reinforcements would arrive and help him in defeating/capturing the Force-user. How this fight was executed in the game is another story.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 4:11 pm
Note that one of these pirates is actually noted to be good enough to stalemate Anakin, potentially the most powerful Jedi in history, so I guess Dooku in TCW is 15 times as good as Anakin.

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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 E8ae7210
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 4:25 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Note that one of these pirates is actually noted to be good enough to stalemate Anakin, potentially the most powerful Jedi in history, so I guess Dooku in TCW is 15 times as good as Anakin.
Yessss, use the wank Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 1289255181
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 4:42 pm
Point is, in the context of TCW, a series in which force users are portrayed to be a lot weaker than their EU counterparts and generally a lot more vulnerable to mundane beings, Dooku looks rather impressive, as evident by one of these pirates being able to match someone of Anakin’s caliber.
[hideedit]


Last edited by MasterCilghal on April 16th 2020, 5:18 pm; edited 10 times in total
BoD
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Level Six
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Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 5:00 pm
Ahsoka's showing is not a valid comparison here because she was fighting in a 'closed setting' and with a handful of clones at best. If Count Dooku was in her shoes, he would have slaughtered these clones without breaking a sweat. I am looking at combat-applicable possibilities for a Force-user in an 'open setting' where dozens of opponents had surrounded him/her; this is a confrontational dynamic in which LIMITATIONS of a Force-user come to light.

Then look at Mace's, Obi-Wan's, or the performances of other Force users like Anakin, all of whom were sub-Dooku at this point.


Darth Traya's showing is absolutely valid here because she felled about 20 Sith Assassins in an 'open setting' without lifting a finger from a distance (and these are Force-users to begin with); not sure if this is a Force Drain technique (does not look like one).

So you have no proof she didn't use her Force Drain technique (which is likely).




Satele Shan demonstrated a Force power of similar nature, intensity and control when she felled several Sith Warriors among others who had surrounded Jace Malcom and were about to execute him, prior to confronting Darth Malgus on Alderaan.

No she didn't. It's not even remotely similar:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 AcU0

She hit three Sith when they had their defences down and then had to use her lightsaber to dispatch two of them:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 4433903-6694146671-43846

Not even remotely comparable.


The pirates were smart enough to surround Count Dooku in the manner that each could shoot at Count Dooku (if necessary); the pirates were smarter than those B2 battle droids who surrounded Windu and established a jam-packed formation while at it (difference between programming and experienced humanoid minds). The pirates might have a measure of well-trained Force-user earlier; so many factors to consider.

So what you're trying to say is that Dooku's limits can't be established because there are so many different factors that could be at play. Let's not forget some of those pirates could get past Maul's defences with their shots, Hondo could hold his own against early TCW Anakin, and they were enough of a threat to TCW Kenobi and Skywalker that they used Hondo as a human shield. That's a feat for the pirates and suggests that they're far above those assassins if we rely on TCW alone to assess limitations, and even then they had to have Dooku disarmed, tired after a long trip, and having been in a ship crash hours beforehand. There are countless TOR characters who also have this problem, from Lord Sadic and Darth Jadus to Vitiate-Suro and Knights of Zakuul.

TCW is a poor way to establish a character's limitations because the show purposely dumbs down their abilities.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 16th 2020, 6:15 pm
@BoD wrote:
Ahsoka's showing is not a valid comparison here because she was fighting in a 'closed setting' and with a handful of clones at best. If Count Dooku was in her shoes, he would have slaughtered these clones without breaking a sweat. I am looking at combat-applicable possibilities for a Force-user in an 'open setting' where dozens of opponents had surrounded him/her; this is a confrontational dynamic in which LIMITATIONS of a Force-user come to light.

Then look at Mace's, Obi-Wan's, or the performances of other Force users like Anakin, all of whom were sub-Dooku at this point.


Darth Traya's showing is absolutely valid here because she felled about 20 Sith Assassins in an 'open setting' without lifting a finger from a distance (and these are Force-users to begin with); not sure if this is a Force Drain technique (does not look like one).

So you have no proof she didn't use her Force Drain technique (which is likely).




Satele Shan demonstrated a Force power of similar nature, intensity and control when she felled several Sith Warriors among others who had surrounded Jace Malcom and were about to execute him, prior to confronting Darth Malgus on Alderaan.

No she didn't. It's not even remotely similar:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 AcU0

She hit three Sith when they had their defences down and then had to use her lightsaber to dispatch two of them:

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 4433903-6694146671-43846

Not even remotely comparable.


The pirates were smart enough to surround Count Dooku in the manner that each could shoot at Count Dooku (if necessary); the pirates were smarter than those B2 battle droids who surrounded Windu and established a jam-packed formation while at it (difference between programming and experienced humanoid minds). The pirates might have a measure of well-trained Force-user earlier; so many factors to consider.

So what you're trying to say is that Dooku's limits can't be established because there are so many different factors that could be at play. Let's not forget some of those pirates could get past Maul's defences with their shots, Hondo could hold his own against early TCW Anakin, and they were enough of a threat to TCW Kenobi and Skywalker that they used Hondo as a human shield. That's a feat for the pirates and suggests that they're far above those assassins if we rely on TCW alone to assess limitations, and even then they had to have Dooku disarmed, tired after a long trip, and having been in a ship crash hours beforehand. There are countless TOR characters who also have this problem, from Lord Sadic and Darth Jadus to Vitiate-Suro and Knights of Zakuul.

TCW is a poor way to establish a character's limitations because the show purposely dumbs down their abilities.
Feel free to share open-field exploits of those names (excluding the use of a lightsaber of-course).

I have already explained how Windu's feat is not INSTRUCTIVE in this case given the proximity and formation of B2 battle droids surrounding him. Count Dooku was in a situation vis-à-vis pirates where his LIMITATIONS were apparent because Hondo had him surrounded in a smarter fashion. There is no excuse for this apparent limitation on the part of Count Dooku as I have elaborated with examples of Darth Traya and Vaylin respectively (open-field exploits of both without a lightsaber). These developments are LEGENDS-CANON and to be taken at face value.

---

Darth Taya's feat of flattening/killing those Sith Assassins is an [in-game] sequence, and I do not see Force Drain type effects involved in this assault which are apparent otherwise. This looks like a telekinetic application (an extrapolation of Force Wound).

---

Those are two separate battle sequences involving Satele Shan in the same region.

Bottom animation = first battle sequence in which Satele Shan flatten/kill 3 Sith warriors in an instant with a wave of energy (possibly more if they were caught in the wave) to save Jace Malcom.

Top animation =  second battle sequence in which Satele Shan proceeds to cut a swath through the incoming column of Sith-led forces, cutting down additional number of Sith warriors in the mix with a lightsaber while advancing towards the position of Darth Malgus.




In this footage alone, Satele Shan demonstrate superior raw power and talents than countless Force-users across different mediums. Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 2266747095

Satele's opening attack materialize like an invisible wave of energy in the air and produce similar outcome as in the case of Darth Traya versus Sith Assassins. In the footage, even minuscule effects are visible when they materialize (much higher level of realism than in KoTOR II and other Star Wars games). 

---

Count Dooku's LIMITATIONS as a Force-user versus dozens of pirates led by Hondo [out in the open] are clearly apparent in a CANON source which does not short-sell Count Dooku otherwise, and corroborated by Dave Filoni independently. I have pointed out earlier that Count Dooku might not have an answer to blaster-bolts coming his way without a lightsaber in his hands (a shortcoming in his command of the Force?). Secondly, he was not capable of producing a Force Wave of such scale which might have knocked out every pirate in the vicinity (a shortcoming in his command of the Force?). 

On the contrary, some Force-users have demonstrated the capability to overwhelm dozens of opponents without a lightsaber [out in the open]; Darth Traya and Vaylin have shown as much (the latter on a bigger scale, and in numerous ways), and Revan scales from Darth Traya in this respect in view of his own demonstrations of power and hype which are INSTRUCTIVE in relation. I can provide more examples just in case.

Regarding 'so many different factors that could be at play' part; my rationalization is that those pirates could have a measure of well-trained Force-users beforehand. They might have known better when they surrounded Count Dooku. This is my rationalization based on how the pirates surrounded Count Dooku and how those B2 battle droids surrounded Mace Windu (humanoid intelligence and experience vs. programming). Pirates are supposed to be smart on average given the nature of their work and level of exposure in general.

Now; if Darth Traya was up against those pirates, she would have killed them all without lifting a finger; Revan and Vaylin also fit the bill. This is one METRIC where a comparison was possible across Force-users in my view.

My contention doesn't take away from Count Dooku being a very capable combatant with a lightsaber in his hand and his ability to incorporate Force powers in his dueling to devastating effect under normal circumstances (ample evidence in multiple sources to consider). Count Dooku did not had access to a lightsaber when he was up against about 30 pirates led by Hondo; a situation in which he had no choice but to resort to his Force powers to achieve what he wanted to but his LIMITATIONS in the ways of the Force were apparent in this dynamic given the odds. Count Dooku might have defeated these pirates otherwise.

Fundamental argument is about Revan being the superior Force-user when compared to Count Dooku and by extension Obi-Wan Kenobi, and Revan would be able to overwhelm the latter opponent without much difficulty because his approach to combat is similar to that of Count Dooku but have superior talents to draw from in the mix.

---

I am not sure how countless TOR characters have that problem from Lord Sadic and Darth Jadus to Vitiate-Suro and Knights of Zakuul. Perhaps many do but further elaboration is needed because this point is lacking in context.

I have expanded on the case of Darth Jadus here:

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@Azronger wrote:@S_W_LeGenD We could apply the same logic to Darth Jadus, who succumbed to a non-Force-sensitive agent in a fight. Does this put a limitation on his Force abilities? The same Jadus who was supposedly second only to the Emperor in power at the time.
Cipher Nine is a well-funded and equipped agent of the time. He might be equipped with technologies to negate Force powers because he is actually dispatched to kill Force-users from time-to-time. He might also have received help from his capable allies while at it.

"Imperial agents rely on a huge variety of weaponry and top-secret devices to carry out their covert missions for the Empire." - TOR (Encyclopedia)

Agents are known to use "stealth" clothing with concealed weapons and armor plating during high-risk infiltrations.

Even with all that, the lore suggest that Cipher Nine has little hope in defeating such a powerful Force-user in a direct fight. Because Darth Jadus was planning a coup, Cipher Nine's mission was to draw his attention and keep him busy until reinforcements would arrive and help him in defeating/capturing the Force-user. How this fight was executed in the game is another story.

I would caution that a comparison must not be drawn in BLACK and WHITE; circumstances of each occurrence and numerous other factors are to be taken into consideration in order to draw a fair comparison across time and space. This can be a difficult and time-consuming task though.

I would never argue that a lone individual cannot put up a fight against a powerful Force-user under any circumstance. Neither this is the intended message here.

---

Vitiate-Surro dismissed a group of individuals including Sith as if they were a bunch of insects in the midst. Given the sheer scale of involvement of Vitiate on Ziost in manipulating its environment (planet-wide), Vitiate-Surro was just one of the occurrences in the mix among countless others. Vitiate produced planet-wide effects on Ziost and to such an extent that it would take thousands of Force-users to produce similar effects on a planet of comparable size TBVH (or a superweapon such as Zildrog). This is easily among the greatest display of Dark Side abilities in the history of mythos (officially unmatched in its NATURE and COMPLEXITY from a lone Force-user at any point in history). Only Darth Nihilus came close subject to his ANOMALY condition which was a freak occurrence as well.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 17th 2020, 1:04 am
Revan wins in a marathon.
Tondemonai
Tondemonai

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 17th 2020, 8:30 am
Revan solidly. Ragdolling the Yavin IV strike team > anything Kenobi has done. Stalemating an emotionally conflicted PSV is hardly a qualifier.
MyGod000
MyGod000

Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 Empty Re: Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS

on April 17th 2020, 11:34 am
in terms of Dueling Obi-wan takes this hand down. 

In the force Revan here.  even those MFV was "Hinder" Gillard stated Anakin on Mustafar was still a Tier 9 force user. 


Even while Hinder, Anakin is still a tier 9 and massively above Obi-wan. Anakin just lost because he was mentally unstable in that fight...but the fact is he still lost. 
TheNuisanceBird
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on April 17th 2020, 9:15 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Note that one of these pirates is actually noted to be good enough to stalemate Anakin, potentially the most powerful Jedi in history, so I guess Dooku in TCW is 15 times as good as Anakin.

Well to be fair not only was Anakin pre-prime but he also had the monkey thing fucking with the controls. Plus watching it back it looks like Anakin wasn't trying to kill Hondo for once. 

But I agree having Anakin getting blizted by the retarded monkey was stupid.
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on April 17th 2020, 10:08 pm
@MyGod000 wrote:in terms of Dueling Obi-wan takes this hand down. 

In the force Revan here.  even those MFV was "Hinder" Gillard stated Anakin on Mustafar was still a Tier 9 force user. 


Even while Hinder, Anakin is still a tier 9 and massively above Obi-wan. Anakin just lost because he was mentally unstable in that fight...but the fact is he still lost. 
He says nothing about Anakin's status as a Force user, the only thing those tiers apply to are lightsaber skill. MFV is almost certainly considerably inferior as a Force user given his incredibly poor psychological state, which is among the most significant factors in properly chanelling the Force.
Sjuttiosju
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on April 22nd 2020, 6:43 pm
@S_W_LeGenD:

1) The formation issue wouldn't make a drastic difference and is likely offset by Mace facing far greater numbers anyway. This is nothing more than pedantic bitching and a desperate attempt to weasel out of the clear disparity in performance.

2) The same complaint likewise applies to Traya, which utterly destroys your comparison.

3) The Malgus point is an irrelevancy, the Mace feat is meant to demonstrate inconsistency, not impressiveness.

4) My comparison between Dooku and Traya went ignored outside of saying scaling like that doesn't work (No explanation as to why).

5) Please be more concise.
S_W_LeGenD
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on May 13th 2020, 8:01 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD:

1) The formation issue wouldn't make a drastic difference and is likely offset by Mace facing far greater numbers anyway. This is nothing more than pedantic bitching and a desperate attempt to weasel out of the clear disparity in performance.

2) The same complaint likewise applies to Traya, which utterly destroys your comparison.

3) The Malgus point is an irrelevancy, the Mace feat is meant to demonstrate inconsistency, not impressiveness.

4) My comparison between Dooku and Traya went ignored outside of saying scaling like that doesn't work (No explanation as to why).

5) Please be more concise.

"If droids could think, there would be none of us here would there?" - Obi-Wan Kenobi

1. Formation make much difference in a fight. B2 battle droids are absolutely vulnerable to Force powers and a Jedi Master of the caliber of Mace Windu wouldn't have issue affecting scores of them with a telekinetic Force wave or similar application at close proximity. Master Windu put multiple B2 battle droids - nearest to him - in a telekinetic Force grip, and blasted them all backwards onto other droids standing on the back, knocking down multiple rows/rings of B2 Battle droids in this manner. As I have argued earlier, B2 battle droids showed poor judgement in this fight and should not have surrounded Master Windu like that (they were supposed to be shooting at Master Windu from a safe distance, or were they instructed to capture him alive?). In the case of Count Dooku; 30+ pirates had surrounded him in such a manner that if a fight had ensued, Count Dooku risked getting shot one way or the other as emphasized by Dave Filoni. Intended message was that Count Dooku needed a lightsaber to defeat so many pirates all by himself. Droids do not hold a candle to the intelligence and experience of living beings even in Star Wars by the way.

It isn't my fault if the original Clone Wars content is lacking in realism.

2. Again! Darth Traya killed scores of Sith Assassins with a telekinetic application from a distance; nothing suggest that Force Drain powers were involved in this feat.

3. Haven't I addressed this part already? There is much difference in how the B2 battle droids surrounded Master Windu and how the pirates surrounded Count Dooku. Those droids showed poor judgement in a battle sequence and got schooled in turn (blame the content/author/whatever - I do not care). Both of these developments do not clearly establish who is the superior Force-user of the two (Master Windu vs. Count Dooku) because these two clashed at one point with indecisive outcome. Although Master Windu would have grown in power by the time of Episode III, and there are certain observations which suggest that Darth Traya, and by extension Revan, are stronger more capable Force-users than Count Dooku as well. Therefore, Revan is very likely to overwhelm Obi-Wan Kenobi in a duel.

4. Darth Traya could have defeated those 30+ pirates as well given her ability to affect so many Sith Assassins from a distance without even lifting a finger and teleport to safety if necessary; Revan by extension as well because he is even more learned Force-user than her. Not my fault if Count Dooku couldn't pull this off while up against dozens of pirates.

5. I am being very clear in my arguments. You are supposed to avoid dancing around branch-offs in a debate and revert to the original point with provided information in mind. In this manner, you will loose track of the primary perspective.
Sjuttiosju
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on May 13th 2020, 1:48 pm
@S_W_LeGenD:

Formation make much difference in a fight.

Against individuals capable of TK it really doesn't. Doesn't matter how tight or spread out the formation is, a force wave will have the same result. On top of this, you provide no elaboration on why this is the case, just state the same points you did last time, without acknowledging that not only did I point out that they'd be offset by the numbers disparity but the same complaint likewise applies to Traya.

Again! Darth Traya killed scores of Sith Assassins with a telekinetic application from a distance; nothing suggest that Force Drain powers were involved in this feat.

Strawman, I never claimed it wasn't done with TK. Try reading my post properly.

Haven't I addressed this part already?

No, you've resorted to pedantic bitching that doesn't stand, as pointed out prior.

Darth Traya could have defeated those 30+ pirates as well given her ability to affect so many Sith Assassins from a distance without even lifting a finger and teleport to safety if necessary; Revan by extension as well because he is even more learned Force-user than her. Not my fault if Count Dooku couldn't pull this off while up against dozens of pirates.

Doesn't address my point, just restates your original argument.

I am being very clear in my arguments.

Uh huh...

This whole post is nothing more than a repeat of your last, and is still lacking in any actual substance. Writing more doesn't grant your post any greater level of credibility, nor make your points any less stupid.
S_W_LeGenD
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on May 13th 2020, 2:00 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD:

Against individuals capable of TK it really doesn't. Doesn't matter how tight or spread out the formation is, a force wave will have the same result. On top of this, you provide no elaboration on why this is the case, just state the same points you did last time, without acknowledging that not only did I point out that they'd be offset by the numbers disparity but the same complaint likewise applies to Traya.

Strawman, I never claimed it wasn't done with TK. Try reading my post properly.

No, you've resorted to pedantic bitching that doesn't stand, as pointed out prior.

Doesn't address my point, just restates your original argument.

Uh huh...

This whole post is nothing more than a repeat of your last, and is still lacking in any actual substance. Writing more doesn't grant your post any greater level of credibility, nor make your points any less stupid.

What is your point in this utterly lame response? It is increasingly apparent that you have nothing constructive to add to this conversation, so leave it be.
Sjuttiosju
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on May 13th 2020, 3:27 pm
Concession accepted. Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 1289255181
freethedevil
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on May 15th 2020, 4:29 pm
@The Witness wrote:Unbeatable Jedi who gets K'OD by Dooku amirite?
Guess dooku beats revan too then  Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 1648373583
freethedevil
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on May 15th 2020, 4:38 pm
@LOTL wrote:This is now legit interesting. Given my PT inclination, I have to inquire, why is the HoT of all people a "potential" tier 9? This also implies you have Revan significantly above Palpatine
I don't get how TOR has magically moved back to its old standing despite no new feats/information of note.

 It's like Micheal Jorda--' the PT brigade disbanded having accomplished all that ever needed to be accomplished and then Hakee--'tor brigade took advantage of the better brigade getting bored.
freethedevil
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on May 15th 2020, 4:44 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD:


Darth Maul: Shadow Conspiracy wrote:Maul tried to slash past Sidious’s guard, only to find his Master had given ground, causing Maul to extend his arms too far and leave himself slightly unbalanced. It was the smallest stumble, easily corrected, but Sidious saw it—and pounced before Maul could draw himself back. Snarling, he reached out with the Force and slammed Maul against the wall, leaving him lying stunned in a heap.

What's notable here is that Sids had to subvert his defences to gain the upper hand with TK, implying direct domination of Maul's active barrier is beyond him. Per a variety of source book quotes, Sids is the most powerful sith lord to have ever lived, which puts him above individuals who are capable of demolishing Traya in the way Sids proved unable to against Maul. Maybe next time you attempt to make a case for a character of your choosing you could think a little beforehand?
Maul>>>Nihlus confirmed.  Revan SOR vs Obi Wan ROTS - Page 3 4037459623
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