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Vaelias
Vaelias

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 17th 2020, 12:47 pm
Who’s it going to
KingKopecz
KingKopecz

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 17th 2020, 12:48 pm
Revan
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 17th 2020, 2:04 pm
Make it Jedi Dooku and Revan still gets flattened
Shimrra
Shimrra

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 17th 2020, 10:39 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Make it Jedi Dooku and Revan still gets flattened
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Six
Level Six

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 3:29 am
Revan stomps.
Mando
Mando

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 5:02 am
Revan, way more powerful.
Supreme Leader
Supreme Leader

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 5:30 am
Tyrannus
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 5:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
ROTS Tyranus. 

SOR Revan isn't as impressive as some make him to be. He was significantly amped during the strike team events while some on the strike team were severely hindered. Only two on the strike team would benefit from the planet amp. It is still an impressive feat nonetheless but it is over-blown out of proportion a lot of the times.
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 6:42 am
Dooku ragdolls because he vanquished Ventress, imo.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 11:12 am
Either way.
DarthFatcow
DarthFatcow

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 11:30 am
Revan tbh
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 11:32 am
@Rei wrote:ROTS Tyranus. 

SOR Revan isn't as impressive as some make him to be. He was significantly amped during the strike team events while some on the strike team were severely hindered. Only two on the strike team would benefit from the planet amp. It is still an impressive feat nonetheless but it is over-blown out of proportion a lot of the times.

@Rei: Don't forget about Satele Shan's battle meditation amp, which "greatly increased" the team's powers and put them in a state of "battle clarity."
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 5:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@Rei: Don't forget about Satele Shan's battle meditation amp, which "greatly increased" the team's powers and put them in a state of "battle clarity."

Battle meditation works by enhancing the will of allies while strangling the enemy's morale/will.

When a powerful Force-user wielded this ability, it could imbue the Jedi's allies with the will to win even against impossible odds. Alternatively, a Jedi could direct the battle meditation toward his or her enemies, causing them to attack one another, surrender, or run away.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

This sweeping Force power, which infuses allies with hope while simultaneously strangling enemy morale, has in the past reversed whole wars.....

- Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

In SOR Revan's case, his whole existence is by sheer will resulting from his hatred and anger towards the Emperor. This makes it highly questionable to the extent that Satele's Battle Meditation had any notable impact on hindering SOR Revan who has incredible will power, which is even noted in previous incarnations such as Revan Reborn in the Novel.

Even further, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes how using Battle Meditation has its own dangers and it could backfire on the user.

Like all abilities strongly connected to the Force, there were dangers inherent in using battle meditation: In some cases, it could cause influenced enemies to become desperate and reckless.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Yet Revan was already reckless, desperate and full of anger in his SOR incarnation to kill the Emperor. 

These points put into question whether Satele's Battle Meditation had any significant negative impact on SOR Revan leading us to the first premise [1].

[1] Satele's Battle Meditation hindering SOR Revan is highly questionable.

Now, while it is true that Satele's Battle Meditation would amp the team, they were still fighting on a very powerful dark side nexus. Only Marr and Lana would be the ones benefitting from the nexus during the fight while the rest would be significantly hindered by it. 

This raises the question of which amp (Nexus or BM) had the bigger impact on the users hindered by the nexus and ,while the BM did amp the users, that does not mean that the users were overall more powerful than their base levels (except Marr and Lana) if the Nexus had a greater impact than the Battle Meditation. 

While the in-game stats increased for the users during the fight, that is not concrete evidence of the Battle meditation having more impact than the Nexus as there are many similar cases  in other Star Wars games of that happening despite the fact that we know with certainty that the users would be hindered. For example, take Revan's fight with Malak on the Star Forge in Knights of the Old Republic game. We know for a fact that Revan would be hindered on a dark side energy enhancer like the Star Forge. Yet, that is never shown from the statistical perspective of the game. There are many instances of that happening in Star Wars games which makes it highly questionable for a stats increase to resemble concrete evidence for Satele's Battle Meditation overcoming the Nexus, especially when this Nexus is one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses. This leads us to the second premise [2].

[2] The stats increase for the characters during the fight does not resemble concrete evidence for Satele's Battle Meditation  having a larger impact than the Nexus as there are many instances of statistical inaccuracy from Star Wars games.

To conclude, a significantly amped Revan is fighting 2-3 non-force sensitives, Satele (Who was not even involved in most of the fight bar her BM) and the Hero of Tython whom are all significantly hindered by the nexus while fighting amped Marr and Lana. Add on that the BM impacting Revan to a notable extent is highly questionable and no concrete evidence of Satele's BM > Nexus, and the feat is not as impressive as some make it out to be, in my opinion.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 5:36 pm
Worth noting that Satele's BM was disrupted numerous times throughout the fight and she herself was a Light Sider trying to use it on an incredibly powerful DS nexus, so even the extent to which she could draw upon her BM is arguable.

*Shrug* Just worth remembering.
Darth Nihilus
Darth Nihilus

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 7:12 pm
Shadow of Revan is more powerful than Dooku despite Dooku being the superior duelist.

Revan wins.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 7:27 pm
Why SoR Revan is more powerful than Dooku?
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 18th 2020, 10:46 pm
@Rei wrote:ROTS Tyranus. 

SOR Revan isn't as impressive as some make him to be. He was significantly amped during the strike team events while some on the strike team were severely hindered. Only two on the strike team would benefit from the planet amp. It is still an impressive feat nonetheless but it is over-blown out of proportion a lot of the times.

Why was a massive Strike Team assembled to handle Revan on Yavin 4? What exactly he could do that warranted intervention of this scale? Why would the two heavyweights Satele Shan and Darth Marr join hands for this particular end?

How will Count Dooku defeat Revan if he is to be swapped with the Strike Team?
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 4:16 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Battle meditation works by enhancing the will of allies while strangling the enemy's morale/will.
It does this yes, however BM is more than a simple morale booster. Look at the effect of the Jedi Worror's Battle meditation on Farfalla:
It had been many years since Farfalla had fought while empowered by Worror's battle meditation. He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel. The Force flowed through him with greater power, filling him with its might. 

And now look at what how it's absence is described for Johun:
Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:
Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him, the beneficial effects of the battle meditation vanishing as Worror's concentration was broken

Worror's Battle Meditation filled Farfalla with great power, increasing his speed and strength. When the connection to Worror's BM breaks, Johun's "strength and energy plummets" Obviously, there's more going on here than the equivalent of a pep talk. Those under the effect of Worror's Battle Meditation find their powers significantly magnified. And yet, Worror is not a BM savant, far from it actually; he is stated to lack the capacity to alter the course of large scale battles, and can only use BM on small groups nearby by him: 
Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:
Although his talent was not strong enough to single-handedly alter the outcome of a large-scale conflict, in close quarters Worror could draw upon the Force to give strength to the bodies, minds, and spirits of those around him, enhancing the skills and abilities of his allies.

So if Worror, someone who is by all accounts mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, is capable of magnifying the abilities of those around him so much that the absence of said BM causes the energy and strength of those affected to "plummet", imagine the unfathomable degree to which a true master of the art could amp their allies. Satele Shan, having inherited the same prodigious talent as her ancestor Bastila Shan, one of the greatest practitioners of Battle Meditation in history, is one such master:
Dar'nala (Star Wars: The Old Republic: Threat of Peace) wrote:[size=34]"[/size]She does have the gift, Master Zym, just like Bastila did. I'm sure of it."

With this in mind:
Now, while it is true that Satele's Battle Meditation would amp the team, they were still fighting on a very powerful dark side nexus. Only Marr and Lana would be the ones benefitting from the nexus during the fight while the rest would be significantly hindered by it. 

This raises the question of which amp (Nexus or BM) had the bigger impact on the users hindered by the nexus and ,while the BM did amp the users, that does not mean that the users were overall more powerful than their base levels (except Marr and Lana) if the Nexus had a greater impact than the Battle Meditation

I refer you back to the example of Worror's Battle Meditation. The battle in which he uses it takes place on the planet Tython, which by the time of the Darth Bane Trilogy is a powerful dark side nexus:
Darth Bane--Rule of Two wrote:
Bane didn't know if the legend was true, but even if it was, it merely proved the superiority of the dark side and its inevitable conquest of the light. For though the followers of Ashla had supposedly defeated the followers of Boga, the dark side had prevailed in the end. Tython, revered by many as the birthplace of the Jedi Order itself, was now a bastion of dark side power, and the location of Bella Darzu's hidden fortress.

Despite being on a powerful Dark Side nexus, Worror's Battle Meditation seems to provide those affected a net benefit, as Farfalla remarks that "He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel", indicating that in spite of the nexus, was still operating at a level above his base. So if mediocre BM user's impact is still a significant net positive even on nexuses described as a bastion of dark side power,I have no issue believing a BM prodigy like Satele is capable of providing a massive net positive impact to the strike team, even on a darkside nexus like Yavin IV.

In SOR Revan's case, his whole existence is by sheer will resulting from his hatred and anger towards the Emperor. This makes it highly questionable to the extent that Satele's Battle Meditation had any notable impact on hindering SOR Revan who has incredible will power, which is even noted in previous incarnations such as Revan Reborn in the Novel.

Even further, The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia notes how using Battle Meditation has its own dangers and it could backfire on the user
...
Yet Revan was already reckless, desperate and full of anger in his SOR incarnation to kill the Emperor. 

These points put into question whether Satele's Battle Meditation had any significant negative impact on SOR Revan leading us to the first premise [1].

[1] Satele's Battle Meditation hindering SOR Revan is highly questionable
I've never seen anyone ever try to say Revan was hindered by Satele's Battle Meditation, which includes the post you're responding to. Ant never claimed Revan was hindered by the BM, so I have no idea why you went on this bizarre tangent.

To conclude, a significantly amped Revan is fighting 2-3 non-force sensitives, Satele (Who was not even involved in most of the fight bar her BM) and the Hero of Tython whom are all significantly hindered by the nexus while fighting amped Marr and Lana. Add on that the BM impacting Revan to a notable extent is highly questionable and no concrete evidence of Satele's BM > Nexus, and the feat is not as impressive as some make it out to be, in my opinion.
Why is Revan "significantly amped". He's an individual who calls on both sides of the force and explicitly calls on both sides of the force against the strike team. It's very plausible Revan is operating at a level similar to his base, since his connection to the light and dark sides of the force would be simultaneously hindered and amped respectively. Even if you want to say Revan is experiencing some net positive, it's certainly nowhere near clear enough for you to definitively assert said amp is "significant". 

So a Revan who is likely operating at a level similar to his base is facing off against a Hero of Tython, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, and Theron Shan who are all likely monstrously amped by Satele's BM, all the while being attacked by aerial strikes...and winning. Were it not for the intervention of Revan's spirit half, the strike team loses. So yes, Revan's feat is ridiculously absurd, and your attempts to lessen it by setting up and then attacking strawmans shows the extent people are willing to go to undermine Revan's greatness.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 4:24 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@BreakofDawn wrote:Worth noting that Satele's BM was disrupted numerous times throughout the fight and she herself was a Light Sider trying to use it on an incredibly powerful DS nexus, so even the extent to which she could draw upon her BM is arguable.

*Shrug* Just worth remembering.
I refer you to the Worror example I cited in my previous post. Despite being on a "bastion of dark side power", mediocre BM user Worror was able to provide significant amps to those around him. I imagine whatever impact the nexus is having on Satele's BM isn't stopping it from still providing a massive benefit to the strike team.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 6:51 am
@KingofBlades wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:Worth noting that Satele's BM was disrupted numerous times throughout the fight and she herself was a Light Sider trying to use it on an incredibly powerful DS nexus, so even the extent to which she could draw upon her BM is arguable.

*Shrug* Just worth remembering.
I refer you to the Worror example I cited in my previous post. Despite being on a "bastion of dark side power", mediocre BM user Worror was able to provide significant amps to those around him. I imagine whatever impact the nexus is having on Satele's BM isn't stopping it from still providing a massive benefit to the strike team.

Fair enough. Thanks for the info.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 10:50 am
Revan dies
Rei
Rei

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 7:34 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@KingofBlades wrote:It does this yes, however BM is more than a simple morale booster. Look at the effect of the Jedi Worror's Battle meditation on Farfalla:


Worror's Battle Meditation filled Farfalla with great power, increasing his speed and strength. When the connection to Worror's BM breaks, Johun's "strength and energy plummets" Obviously, there's more going on here than the equivalent of a pep talk. 

I never claimed that it was only a pep talk. I was merely describing how it is stated to work, not the end result of it.

Those under the effect of Worror's Battle Meditation find their powers significantly magnified

That is not necessarily true. The quotes you provided state that the Force flowed ‘with greater power’ but does not state the extent of such magnification, but merely that the power increased. The second quote states that “Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him,” which is stating that the strength and energy plummeted to the point that Johun felt exhausted and overwhelmed. It is not talking about how much the Power in the Force plummeted, merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted.

So if Worror, someone who is by all accounts mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, is capable of magnifying the abilities of those around him so much that the absence of said BM causes the energy and strength of those affected to "plummet", imagine the unfathomable degree to which a true master of the art could amp their allies. 

Worror not being able to “single-handedly alter the outcome of a large-scale conflict” does not mean that he is a mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, it simply means that he is not as talented as some of the best BM practitioners in the mythos. That does not mean that he is just an average, especially in close quarters.

Satele Shan, having inherited the same prodigious talent as her ancestor Bastila Shan, one of the greatest practitioners of Battle Meditation in history, is one such master:

The quote you provided is only stating that Satele has the “gift” that Bastila did denoting that Satele has the ability of Battle Meditation. It does not state that she was as masterful or as good as Bastila. Simply coming from the bloodline does not mean that she will be as talented or inherit Bastila’s mastery or talent. Even more so, I do not think we have ever seen Satele used Battle Meditation to the extent of altering large-scale conflicts like Bastila did. Yet, she has been on the battlefield countless times and her Battle Meditation would have been very useful in many conflicts had she had the ability to alter large-scale conflicts like Bastila. Bastila was constantly used by the council for her Battle Meditation for large conflicts while Satele never (as to my knowledge). You are merely speculating that Satele is as talented as Bastila simply because they are from the same bloodline and have the “gift” despite no evidence supporting that notion and if there is then by all means provide it. But I have a hunch that you would have already done so, had there been evidence to support it.


I refer you back to the example of Worror's Battle Meditation. The battle in which he uses it takes place on the planet Tython, which by the time of the Darth Bane Trilogy is a powerful dark side nexus:

Despite being on a powerful Dark Side nexus, Worror's Battle Meditation seems to provide those affected a net benefit, as Farfalla remarks that "He had forgotten how much quicker and stronger the Ithorian's amazing talent made him feel", indicating that in spite of the nexus, was still operating at a level above his base. So if mediocre BM user's impact is still a significant net positive even on nexuses described as a bastion of dark side power,

Yavin IV is considered to be one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses. Tython simply being a ‘bastion of dark side power’ is not really comparable.

I have no issue believing a BM prodigy like Satele is capable of providing a massive net positive impact to the strike team, even on a darkside nexus like Yavin IV.

Again, evidence needed for Satele being as masterful and talented as Bastila other than simply coming from the bloodline and having the “gift”.

I've never seen anyone ever try to say Revan was hindered by Satele's Battle Meditation, which includes the post you're responding to. Ant never claimed Revan was hindered by the BM, so I have no idea why you went on this bizarre tangent.

That was not specifically to what Ant wrote. I have seen some people in the past make that claim and wrote that as a mere possibility of that others might argue with. My response was not specifically to what Ant said, rather mere possibilities of what some might say/argue and since you have not protested against it, I take it that you agree with what I said. My response was not specific to anyone, rather points to consider when discussing this fight.

Why is Revan "significantly amped". He's an individual who calls on both sides of the force and explicitly calls on both sides of the force against the strike team. It's very plausible Revan is operating at a level similar to his base, since his connection to the light and dark sides of the force would be simultaneously hindered and amped respectively. Even if you want to say Revan is experiencing some net positive, it's certainly nowhere near clear enough for you to definitively assert said amp is "significant". 

Not to be rude, but the idea that SOR Revan calls on both sides of the Force is pure BS. His whole existence is based on pure anger, hatred and vengeance towards the Emperor which are all Dark Side attributes and fuel the Dark Side of the Force and is contradictory to the Light Side of the Force. Even more so, the fact that Light Side Revan’s spirit is even a thing makes it very obvious that SOR Revan is the dark, hateful side of Revan while the spirit is the Light Side part of Revan. The spirit literally says that it became ‘one with the Force’ which is a direct Light Side attribute. Even worse, SOR Revan being hateful, angry and seeking revenge will directly fuel his connection to the Dark Side of the Force and trying to argue that Revan would be at his base level because his Dark and Light side cancel out is complete BS when SOR Revan would only be drawing on the Dark Side of the Force as he is fueled by hate and anger, and that is assuming he can even draw on the Light. Even if you were to say that SOR Revan is at base level because of Light/Dark side, a being full of anger and hatred will not be drawing on the light side of the force and his Dark Side connection will be amped by such Nexus and this is the side of the Force that a person full of hate will draw upon. Light Side Revan is literally a separate entity to SOR. So, yes, SOR Revan was definitely significantly amped by the nexus which would boost his Dark Side which SOR Revan would very obviously be calling upon.

So a Revan who is likely operating at a level similar to his base is facing off against a Hero of Tython, Darth Marr, Lana Beniko, Shae Vizla, and Theron Shan who are all likely monstrously amped by Satele's BM, all the while being attacked by aerial strikes...and winning.

SOR Revan is definitely not operating at his base. He is literally a being of hatred and anger making it very clear that he is completely fueled by the Dark Side of the Force which is made even more clear by the fact that Revan’s light side spirit is a separate entity to SOR, which would definitely be amped by the nexus and amped significantly above base level. You even go further and claim that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite bashing me earlier on about how I asserted that Revan’s amp was definitely significant. Double standards much?

You draw us to an example of Tython which is not comparable to Yavin IV and then blindly speculate that Satele is as masterful and talented as Bastila in BM based on nothing other than bloodline and having the “gift”. There is not a single instance of Satele using BM to the extent of influencing large-scale conflicts and yet there is plenty for Bastila. So, the assertion that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite being on such a powerful nexus is baseless with no evidence to back it up.

So yes, Reva's feat is ridiculously absurd, and your attempts to lessen it by setting up and then attacking strawmans shows the extent people are willing to go to undermine Revan's greatness.

Revan’s feat is not ridiculously absurd when he was significantly amped by the nexus fighting three non-force sensitives, 2 arguably weakened Jedi (1 of whom was not even fighting most of the time) and 2 amped Sith. You are going to have to prove that Satele’s BM, at the bare minimum, placed the users at their base levels after the Nexus’s impact. And as I said earlier, the feat is still an impressive feat but taken out of proportion by some people like claiming it’s a ridiculously absurd one when in reality the feat is circumstantial and not really clear on the extent of Satele’s BM relative to the Nexus. It being a ridiculously absurd feat is not definitive and questionable and that is the point I am making.


So do not start getting emotional on me just because I criticized your god Revan.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 19th 2020, 10:53 pm
That is not necessarily true. The quotes you provided state that the Force flowed ‘with greater power’ but does not state the extent of such magnification, but merely that the power increased. The second quote states that “Johun felt his strength and energy plummet, A wave of exhaustion and fatigue overwhelmed him,” which is stating that the strength and energy plummeted to the point that Johun felt exhausted and overwhelmed. It is not talking about how much the Power in the Force plummeted, merely that he felt physically weaker with less energy and thus exhausted.

You're a native English speaker yes? If not, you should be made aware that certain verbs implicitly refer to magnitude. For instance, if something is described as "skyrocketing", we are implicitly being told that something is increasing to a large degree. To give you an example sentence, if you ever hear someone say, "Yeah Tesla's stock skyrocketed yesterday", they're saying Tesla's stock increased by a large margin. "Plummet" is another such verb. It's used to indicate a significant decrease in magnitude. Have you ever heard anyone ever use the word plummet in a sentence and have it mean anything other than a significant decrease? I certainly haven't, and I'm willing to wager this goes for everyone else on the forum who speaks fluent English. So yes, Johun's energy did drop significantly, and your attempt to cast ambiguity on the meaning of a verb who's meaning is obvious, indicates to me you are either being disingenuous or aren't very familiar with the English language.
Worror not being able to “single-handedly alter the outcome of a large-scale conflict” does not mean that he is a mediocre in the art of Battle Meditation, it simply means that he is not as talented as some of the best BM practitioners in the mythos. That does not mean that he is just an average, especially in close quarters.

Arguing semantics does you no credit. Being unable to alter large scale conflicts indicates he's not a master of BM. Similar adjectives are "expert", "exceptional", and "extraordinary". If you were to consult your nearest Thesarus for antonyms, you would find words like "ordinary", "usual" or "average". My description of Worror as a mediocre BM user is well within normal parameters. But really, this is all pointless, the overarching point is that there's a massive gap between someone like Worror, and someone who is truly proficient at BM.
The quote you provided is only stating that Satele has the “gift” that Bastila did denoting that Satele has the ability of Battle Meditation. It does not state that she was as masterful or as good as Bastila. Simply coming from the bloodline does not mean that she will be as talented or inherit Bastila’s mastery or talent. Even more so, I do not think we have ever seen Satele used Battle Meditation to the extent of altering large-scale conflicts like Bastila did. Yet, she has been on the battlefield countless times and her Battle Meditation would have been very useful in many conflicts had she had the ability to alter large-scale conflicts like Bastila. Bastila was constantly used by the council for her Battle Meditation for large conflicts while Satele never (as to my knowledge). You are merely speculating that Satele is as talented as Bastila simply because they are from the same bloodline and have the “gift” despite no evidence supporting that notion and if there is then by all means provide it. But I have a hunch that you would have already done so, had there been evidence to support it.

You don't name drop someone who is arguably the greatest BM user of all time in a comparison unless the person in question is also extremely proficient in BM. I'm not claiming Satele's prowess equals Bastila's but the comparison is readily apparent. To bring up a similar example, imagine a physicist who knew Einstein described a rising physicist's intuition as possessing a gift of intuition like Einstein. Why would Einstein's name be mentioned if the rising star had average or even decently above average intuition? You'd only mention Einstein if this rising star was truly extraordinary. The same logic applies here. Bastila's name being mentioned implicitly reveals to us the extent to which Satele is proficient in BM. And a link in bloodline is not enough to warrant the comparison either. Imagine a Skywalker descendant being described as "powerful in the force like Anakin or Luke" if this descendant's power is anything but extraordinary. It just wouldn't happen. Explicit evidence is not the only form of evidence that exists. I don't need to provide explicit proof of Satele having Bastila tier BM if the implicit evidence is sufficient. And in this case, it is.
That was not specifically to what Ant wrote. I have seen some people in the past make that claim and wrote that as a mere possibility of that others might argue with. My response was not specifically to what Ant said, rather mere possibilities of what some might say/argue and since you have not protested against it, I take it that you agree with what I said. My response was not specific to anyone, rather points to consider when discussing this fight

You went to a lot of trouble debunking points someone theoretically might make. But I'll take you at your word. Though for the record, I've read many many Revan debates, and have never seen the argument you describe.
Yavin IV is considered to be one of the most powerful Dark Side nexuses. Tython simply being a ‘bastion of dark side power’ is not really comparable.

How is it not? That "bastion" is being used to describe the magnitude of the nexus would only be used if said magnitude was incredibly strong. This is another instance where a word has an implied magnitude. I tire of having to explain things that are obvious to anyone who knows English, so please stop with the lack of common sense.
Not to be rude, but the idea that SOR Revan calls on both sides of the Force is pure BS. His whole existence is based on pure anger, hatred and vengeance towards the Emperor which are all Dark Side attributes and fuel the Dark Side of the Force and is contradictory to the Light Side of the Force. Even more so, the fact that Light Side Revan’s spirit is even a thing makes it very obvious that SOR Revan is the dark, hateful side of Revan while the spirit is the Light Side part of Revan. The spirit literally says that it became ‘one with the Force’ which is a direct Light Side attribute. Even worse, SOR Revan being hateful, angry and seeking revenge will directly fuel his connection to the Dark Side of the Force and trying to argue that Revan would be at his base level because his Dark and Light side cancel out is complete BS when SOR Revan would only be drawing on the Dark Side of the Force as he is fueled by hate and anger, and that is assuming he can even draw on the Light. Even if you were to say that SOR Revan is at base level because of Light/Dark side, a being full of anger and hatred will not be drawing on the light side of the force and his Dark Side connection will be amped by such Nexus and this is the side of the Force that a person full of hate will draw upon. Light Side Revan is literally a separate entity to SOR. So, yes, SOR Revan was definitely significantly amped by the nexus which would boost his Dark Side which SOR Revan would very obviously be calling upon.

Not to be rude, but have you ever played, watched, or even read the Wookipedia entry of SoR? SoR Revan entraps the strike team in both light and darkside energies. The HoT must then free the members trapped by dark side energies with "light side echoes" and those trapped by light side energies with "dark side fissures"
 

https://i.imgur.com/snNNaF2.gifv

So my comments on the degree to which Revan was amped stand.

SOR Revan is definitely not operating at his base. He is literally a being of hatred and anger making it very clear that he is completely fueled by the Dark Side of the Force which is made even more clear by the fact that Revan’s light side spirit is a separate entity to SOR, which would definitely be amped by the nexus and amped significantly above base level. You even go further and claim that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite bashing me earlier on about how I asserted that Revan’s amp was definitely significant. Double standards much?
Revan is very plausibly operating near his base since he explicitly draws on both sides of the force against the strike team. You also misquoted me. I didn't say the strike team was "monstrously amped", I said the strike team was "likely monstrously amped". Meaning my claim wasn't definitive. So there's no double standards going on here. There does seem, however, to be a lack of reading comprehension going on on your part.

You draw us to an example of Tython which is not comparable to Yavin IV and then blindly speculate that Satele is as masterful and talented as Bastila in BM based on nothing other than bloodline and having the “gift”. There is not a single instance of Satele using BM to the extent of influencing large-scale conflicts and yet there is plenty for Bastila. So, the assertion that the team is ‘monstrously amped’ despite being on such a powerful nexus is baseless with no evidence to back it up
The purpose of bringing up Tython was to establish the precedent of BM providing significant amps even on incredibly powerful Dark Side nexuses. Considering the vast disparity that likely exists between Worror Satele's BM, and how you'd be hard pressed to find descriptions of even the most powerful nexuses having effects comparable to Worror's BM, the amp being provided to the strike is likely massive in size. This, contrary to your assertion, is backed by evidence, only forms of evidence you seem to have trouble comprehending. It relies on intuition and implicit evidence, something that is used by humans every day of our lives.

Revan’s feat is not ridiculously absurd when he was significantly amped by the nexus fighting three non-force sensitives, 2 arguably weakened Jedi (1 of whom was not even fighting most of the time) and 2 amped Sith. You are going to have to prove that Satele’s BM, at the bare minimum, placed the users at their base levels after the Nexus’s impact. And as I said earlier, the feat is still an impressive feat but taken out of proportion by some people like claiming it’s a ridiculously absurd one when in reality the feat is circumstantial and not really clear on the extent of Satele’s BM relative to the Nexus. It being a ridiculously absurd feat is not definitive and questionable and that is the point I am making.
Revan probably isn't significantly amped, more likely operating at a level near his base. So Revan was beating a likely monstrously amped HoT, Marr, Lana, Theron, and Shae Vizla, all the while being bombarded by strafing runs. That strikes me as an absurd feat. That there's a degree of uncertainty to the feat is a shallow criticism. There's degrees of uncertainty in every single scaling chain and feat comparison, that doesn't give us license to go "muh uncertainty". Sure, we don't have perfect knowledge of all possible variables, but what we do know indicates that Revan's feat is indeed crazy
HellfireUnit
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SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 1:51 am
Why the massive discussion? Revan is below Valk and Valk is below Plagueis. Dooku oneshots, that simple.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

on November 20th 2020, 2:07 am
Thanks HU
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SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus  Empty Re: SOR Revan vs ROTS Tyranus

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